NPC personality and alignment discussion.
Bubbles
Member Posts: 589
Did anyone noticed that the evil NPCs in the game are often very considerate (just occasional selfishness), while some of the so called "good" or "neutal" aligned NPCs are somewhat extremists and actually rather "evil" in deeds?.
Example :
Hexxat is basically pretty kind at heart if you noticed her conversations. Non of the Evil NPCs star a fight with the good ones. The so called good aligned NPCs always starts the fight and always attempts to kill them or kick them out of the party.
Makes me wonder who is truely the bad guys ^^
Example :
Hexxat is basically pretty kind at heart if you noticed her conversations. Non of the Evil NPCs star a fight with the good ones. The so called good aligned NPCs always starts the fight and always attempts to kill them or kick them out of the party.
Makes me wonder who is truely the bad guys ^^
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Comments
There are, what, 6 Evil NPCs now? Edwin, Sarevok, Viconia, Dorn, Korgan, and Hexxat. I'll attempt to go by alphabetical order.
Dorn: Follows a demon, first action in BG2 is to attack an entire order of paladins. Keldorn attacking him immediately is completely justified. This guy is the extremist of the extremists.
Edwin: He's probably the most affably evil of all of them. Edwin is incredibly power-hungry, though, even apparently taking over Thay for all of one day. While he's in the party, he doesn't do anything completely crazy, and in return there's no fighting conflict with any of the others. Probably the most neutral of the bunch.
Hexxat: Another out-and-out evil, to be honest. Begins by killing Clara for... no reason. From dialogues with Aerie, we know Hexxat goes out at night to kill innocents to get a drink of blood instead of, say, animals or summoned critters. Or not kill them. All the Good characters should attack her here at hearing this, actually, since there's pretty much no justification for killing innocent people because she's thirsty and can't control her urges. She might be NICE to others, but she's Evil to the core with no respect of life or good of people in general. She tries to cover it up, and from reading her dialogues she doesn't sound Evil. But the actions she takes or that she's willing to take say much otherwise.
Korgan: Very crude, very effective mercenary that doesn't care less about the pains he cause in the meantime. The only fight involving him is with Aerie, and she simply leaves because she can't take his harassment any longer, so it's not a fight-to-the-death.
Sarevok: No comment, as I haven't played with him before. Anyone know why Rasaad fights with him?
Viconia: OK, in this one you have a fair point as Keldorn really doesn't have the evidence or reasoning to attack her. Valygar can be somewhat excused for only attacking if she insinuates something about his sexual orientation or capabilities, so she starts that one.
So conclusion: With the sole exception of Keldorn attacking Viconia, every single other conflict that ends in a fight exists not because the other person is called Evil, but because they have done something so morally wrong that the morally upright members of the group simply can't turn a blind eye to it. Evil generally doesn't take any offense in a person doing good. A good person should take offense in a person doing evil.
In answer to the question about Sarevok and Rasaad's clash, Sarevok thinks Rasaad is a whiny child and implies that he will kill him if Charname stops finding him useful. Rasaad rebuffs the latter, but starts responding threateningly at the former.
But she do not want to create more of her kind. It's a pretty interesting thing about this Hexxat I'd say.
Korgan exhibits common traits as a mercenary I guess and a school bully in some sense?. In real life,how many of the mercenaries that were used in places like Afghanistan etc (for example) have or have not committed any evil acts under the employment and banner of "goodness"?
Dorn's deeds is not unlike some property developers, under the order of their employer to use whatever necessary means to clear the an area of slums or residential area to make way for their projects.
Edwin, like many ambitious entrepreneurs or executives, climbing up to the position of their desire or hotile takeover of another company for their own gains or even for whatever greater good when 1 country attempts to influence another country with their political views etc for what they perceived as the "good" or "right" way to do things.
Viconia would seem more like a victim of racism ^^.
Oh my gosh at this rate, we actually have alot of "EVIL" people running around in our lives. X_X
Hexxat: her cavaliar attitude towards the people she kills and feeds on is telling. She shows little or no signs of remorse; she's not even one of those vamps who are conflicted/fight their impulses. She acts like she's perfectly justified without any remorse or regret at all.
She's also a vampire in a DnD game; sorry to disappoint Twilight fans, but the norm is that otherwise good or neutral humanoids that get turned into vamps always go through an alignment/personality shift to evil.
Viconia vs Keldorn or Valygar: while Keldorn's behavior isnt completely justified (he does give her a clear warning to leave) one word, Drow. If you're unfamiliar with Forgotten Realms setting Drow it's hard to explain. In a word, it's not 21st century middle class America. PLUS she's (incredibly stupidly) a self declared priestess of Shar, which to paladins and good aligned rangers is akin to a high ranking ISIS officer hanging loose with Israeli commando unit members.
And seriously, someone thinks it's odd that Keldorn attacks her but a good aligned Ranger attacking her with lethal intent is understandable because she... questioned his sexuality??? Wow...
The reason why Drizzt is so very famous is precisely because he's pretty much the only Good-aligned Drow anywhere. (Of course he'd have some repute as an outstanding fighter, but there are other highly competent warriors in the Realms, so he wouldn't stand out from the crowd so much for his martial prowess alone.)
The way I see it - drow aren't inherently evil - it's their upbringing and culture that makes them evil, but maybe lore disagrees with me, not sure. I just don't believe there's such a thing as inherently evil.
I have very little knowledgeabout forgotten realms lore, but I play whith Eilistraees Song mod (don't know if is EE compatible). According to that mod's lore drow aren't inherently evil, is their culture that is evil and also they worship an evil goddes, this make the majority of drows evil.
Pretending thet someone is inherently evil leads to racism and preclude a possibility of redempion, and in that case Drittz is an abomination.
Eilistraee, daughter of Lolith, is not evil, and she is a beacon of light for the drows that want to change attitude and leave the underdark. And also in vanilla Solaufein states that his devotion is for Eilistraee and not for Lolith.
If someone is interested I can post the books of lore from that mod, being a mod everyone can download I don't think there is copywirght problem in doing it.
And people whit better knowledge of forgotten realms lore can tell better then me about Eilistraee and how the mod's author possibly changed the lore.
By the way uncle Keldorn is a fanatic and a racist, like most of the people who belive that they own THE TRUTH, and that their truth is the only possible truth, and that everyone else have to be converted to that truth or exterminated. The things are a little more complex then this, this mentality "all black or all white, no gray at all and (that's important) no other colours is normal in a 3 years old person, then the person is supposed to grow, to ampliate the orizons of his mind
Trying to project real-world opinions onto the FR universe is a misguided exercise which instantly leads to gross misunderstanding of FR.
I am from a time of the World of Greyhawk .. where the initial thought of a good aligned drow has yet to exist I believe? Anyone still playing pencil and paper D&D out there? I miss it so much.
You are also correct when you say the Forgotten Realms are a universe in which inherent evil certainly does exist, Lolith is inherntly evil, no doubt about it.
And the mission of a paladin is fight the evil, nothing wrong about it.
But in the Forgotten Realms, at least as are implemented in BG2, there is a chance of redemption and drows are not inherntly evil.
Drizzt is not evil, Solaufein is not evil, Viconia can change. And also Sarewok, not a drow, but the big evil guy of BG, can change.
Also Eilistraee is a Goddess, she is not supposed to be a stupid who devote herself to an impossible goal. Maybe not all the drows are inherntly evil.
So a person who try to kill other people just for being drows, negating their chance of redemption, also in the Forgotten Realms world have some component of racism and fanatism in himself.
And I don't know how much things like mercy and forgiving are related to goodness in Forgotten Realms or how much I proiect on thet universe things that are related to our culture, mainly to the Christian culture, on that I admit that I can be completely wrong.
But what I would like to know, is where in FR lore is it said, that drows are inherently evil. How is it so, and why?
Nobody can disagree that the drow culture is evil, but how do we know, from a FR lore point of view, that it is evil inherently part of them, as opposed to the culture they are brought up in? You could have a book within FR that might say as much, but how do we know whoever wrote such a book, or whoever claims that drows are inherently evil, are actually correct?
Well, I suppose that FR is something protected by some form of copywright and you and me are not allowed to write a new book involving FR without the permission of the owners of the copywright (Wizards of the Coast? not shure), and if we manage to have the permission under some form of licence we have to follow some guidelines to preserve coherence to the FR universe.
FR is something complex involving pc and pnp games, books, a lot of them written by many people, and maybe other stuff. Whitout some form of control is impossible to mantain some form of coherence and continuity, and even so is a very difficoult task.
So I suppose that an expert of FR can find a lot of incongruences in the huge amount of material, but if Drizzt dies in a novel is not possible to start a new one whit him alive. Maybe can be resurrected or another way to justify his being still alive can be found, but coherence and continuity shall be preserved.
So I suppose that what is written in an official book about FR must be trusted as correct, if is something so crucial like the drow alignment (race and individuals).
Anyway BG implementation of the FR universe is not identical to that of pnp or books. Spells have been channged, monsters have been changed and so on.
And in this particular implementation of FR drows are not inherently evil, some ar not from the beghinning and some can change.
"Love is a lie, only hate endures."
- Shar
*ahem*
So while Lolth Drow culture is pretty set on being super evil, Eilistraee and Vhaeraun
are pretty chill about the whole thing. Yes Vhaeraun is evil but he promotes trade with the surface elves and even living with them on the surface. He also promotes that female and male drow are equal unlike Lolth's matriarchal society. Eilistraee, as stated, is the Goddess of Good Drow, song, dance, and bards and stuff.
So we have the primary Drow deity, Lolth, that promotes classic Drow culture but at least two other Drow deities that are against it.
Due to a difference in views and ethics in their ways, which conflicted the other elven faiths to the extend that, 1 day the other elves no longer good tolerate them (and probably they attempted to usurp and rule over the other elves?).
Thus a major civil war was fought within the elven community and drove their cousin to the brink of extinction. To survive, Drows went underground. Over time, they embrace Lolth as their primary deity since they have forsaken the elven gods. Life in the underdark is very harsh, and so the drows have hardened even more over the centuries (heart and soul) and under the leadership of those matron mothers of Lolth,
most have been taught the evil n dark paths from young (somewhat brain-washed?).
Few drows have the time and chance to even develop their own opinions of what is good, as they live amongst dark and evil neighbourhood. If you noticed, even in the realms, the ones that are known to be neutral or good drows, are often of noble or high status family in the drow society. I would believe, due to their family background, they have a slightly better chance of coming into contact of different thoughts as they are being educated to lead and manipulate others (much like higher educations, people then can have a better chance of developing their own thoughts, unlike the lives of peasants and serfs)..
As the surviving drows that moved to the underdark was fairly few in numbers but of the fittest and strongest (probably), you can see why eventually they became FemDom( hehe ) society. In an effort to re-populate, the females became more influential and their concept of a family eventually evoled to become so drastically different to the surfacers. Embracing Lolth as their resident Deity, has further re-affirmed their beliefs that only the strongest are fit ti stay alive and only with the strongest, can they domninate (they do not generally believe in quantity but quality I guess). Of course some strong ones met untimely deaths (but they do't really care, they think if you cant't stay alive you are weak).
Psychologically, well the first batch of drow immigrants probably suffered badly resulting in the way their descendants wander deeper into the dark paths (being originally surface dwellers, you can imagine if you spend the next thousand years not seeing the sky, and all gloomy infra-visioned views everyday). So you can imagine when you have a metally deranged neighborhood, how healthy can those kids grow up to be? ^^.
The above, are pieces of info I came across from the 1980s till now, mostly belonging to the 80s period,
from game guides, modules etc + occasional glimpse from novels. I didnt get the chance to read those 6 novels, was it, which is primarily based in underdark I think they were published during the 90s or early Y2Ks. I would be glad if anyone could help correct or add more info about the drows.
So yeah. You could say that Drizzt is an EXTREMELY unique case. Most non-evil drow are merely neutral.
And the reason why people attack Drow on sight is because AT LEAST 90% of the time, when Drow show up in the surface they're doing raids. Rape, torture and murder of the helpless/innocents/children, etc.
Keldorn is old and experienced enough to have probably encountered the victims of Drow raids in his lifetime. Combined with Viconia's attitude/admission that she serves Shar, you can understand why he acts that way.
Certainly they live under a strong enviromental pressure, both from the Underdark and their own society, that favours strong and merciles people. And their becoming drow from Ilythiiri is a fact that can not be ignored and not completely natural.
But we can not ignore Eilistraee the Goddess of Good Drow, and I suppose that Drizzt don't have a Goddes devotet only to him, and the fact that ingame there are 3 not evil drow and one of them becomes not evil after an alignment shift.
Not the only shift ingame, also mrTOB and charname can change, but shift occourred to a drow, and that is important, mrTOB and charname are not of races supposed to be inherently something.
So I would say that drow are not inherently evil, but at this stage of their evolution their large majority is evil, due to all the reasons we have alredy told, but there is a little number of neutrals and fewer good ones (Eilistraee not only is the Goddes of good drows, but is caotic good herself, is a good Deity).
And most of this "deviant" drow live in disguise to survive in their society.
Is also true that "AT LEAST 90% of the time, when Drow show up in the surface they're doing raids. Rape, torture and murder of the helpless/innocents/children, etc." as stated before.
But to impute to an individual the guilts of a race seems to me something very close to racism.
And when the party meets Viki she is not doing raids, she is an helpless begging to be saved from fanatics (or good and sensate people, depends on your point of view) that try to kill her. If you player/charname think that drow are inherently evil and is good to kill them just for beeing members of that race you help to burn her alive, don't rescue her and allow her to be a member of your party, so the problems whit Kel will never happen.....
And after you recruit her she proves to be a reliable companion. She is (still) evil, but also Korgan is, and the dwarf is a person who kills for money, a mercenary, and whith a good sadistic omponent. but also he proves to be a reliable companion (only if iou pay him....).
And our paladin seems to have no problem about the evil dwarf beeing in the party, they dwell surprisingly well. Why has problems whith Viki? Not cause she is evil, not cause she is raiding and killing innocents, only for her race. And again this seems to me to be racism and fanatism.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not on a personal crusade against Keldorn, is not my favorite NPC, but I like him quite a much, and he had been often in my parties. I admire him as a person whith hight morality and fully devoted to a cause, a true hero, and when in the epilogue I see him ascending to the side of Torm I confess that often a tear drops from my eye........
But I try to see also the gray, not only in black and white, and, also in real life, admiring a person, maybe a friend, it doesn't prevent me from noticing his/her defects, as I know that myself have defects, a lot of them, and it doesn't prevent me from noticing something good in people that I don't admire.
This guy is a BEEEEP but I must recognize that in that field he his really good.
As a general comment on the topic, well it is a Bioware game, plain and simple. And joinable Bioware-NPCs are always written to be likeable, regardless of their alignment.
They allow well known Red Wizards of Thay to wander around knowing whenever and wherever the Red Wizards are, nothing good ever happens. Reason? They dare not openly offend powerful "active" surface organization? Likewise the Zhentarims are allowed to wander around monopolizing trade routes and various commodities, threatening various neighbors via their merchant representatives. Zhentarims is another active evil power, so even the Hammers of Tyr didnt go hammering them.
Ironically, the Harpers are far more active against such evil organizations (while harpers are generaly neutral aligned and seek balance).
Having said that, no wonder in Greyhawk Tharizdun is able to make powers of the upper planes to bicker amongst themselves or picking a fight with the powers of neutrality over minor view differences. (in the novel, Tharizdun eventually destroyed all the other powers that opposed him and the entire multi-verse
became his personal property, Luckily the elements of Probability and Time set a trap for Thrizdun to be contained in that multi-verse with Entropy as his main neighbor ^^. Frankly you will not want Entrpy as your neighbor, he eventually nullify everything, it is just a matter of "time").
That will be a real challenge to play ^^
I'm actually not sure whether Drow are officially intended to be inherently Evil, although I suspect that the answer is yes.
About Drow I suspect that the answer in no for the reasons that I have alredy exposed.
As someone else pointed out, do not project real life scenarios into D&D. It doesn't work. Racism makes absolutely no sense in the real world where there isn't a faction of physically slightly different humanoids who mostly show up to rape, pillage, and murder everyone in the vicinity, but in the Forgotten Realms you bet it does.
In our real world whe have only ONE intelligent species, and is not so scientifically shown that there are different races inside that species.
Really in an enviroment whith multiple intelligent species competing ol collaborating the whole concept of racism can be really different from our concept.
I love this topic, it makes me think at things that I have never thought before.