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NWN2's OC isn't as bad as everyone says it is, I think (Spoilers for part of NWN2).



  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    edited December 2015
    Rather bad. Epic toughness sucks, epic resilience does the same thing as steadfast determination but eats up two epic feats. Power critical sucks. Has EXP penalties. Could easily have had EDM. Misses out on Evasion and Expose Weakness. No Extend, no Persist. Extra Turning is pointless, you can neither turn anything worth turning, nor do your Divine Might/Shield ultimately have any reasonable impact on the gameplay.

  • ReibornReiborn Member Posts: 156
    yup tested it right now on MOTB.

    my most greatest disappointment was the constant need to tinker buffs, there are just too many of them.
    with paladin you got 4 levels and from those you only really need 3-4 to have good time.
    with Cleric spells... just too many.

    But on the upside with buffs it seems it get ridiculously powerful with around 40 SR, massive bonuses to everything etc.

    Weird thing was the most fun part were the epic spells, I might need to play pure wizard or something those spells are rather fun.
    hopefully I will not deteriorate into maximized Greater Missile Storm. that thing is just.. well...

  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    The only good epic spell is Vampiric Feast. Everything else is pretty much a waste of a feat slot.
    I did comment on combat clerics earlier: they are excruciatingly tedious for the campaigns until you get persist, and even then you still need to cast some stuff pre/during combat.

  • NotabarbiegirlNotabarbiegirl Member Posts: 143
    Mass fowl is funny, Hellball is pretty good, Epic Gate could be good, if companions did not summon a creature and cancel out the Balor.

  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,427
    I love Mass Fowl. Gave it to the Red Wizard Safiya since she's a transmuter. The casting invocation is pretty hilarious XD

  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    Mass fowl is wonderful if you enjoy destroying your loot. Hellball is meh at best. 40d6 elemental damage that halves on a save isn't a good deal by any means.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited December 2015

    Hi gents,
    ok I've pondered on fun class for nostalgic run of both OC and MOTB.
    I really like the knightly type good characters so I came by with this build and I'll thank you for pointers and such.


    Looks kind of dull to me, and the random rogue level doesn't appear to make a whole lot of sense from a roleplaying perspective. You could use the Neverwinter Nine PrC to meet the Shadowbane Stalker sneak attack requirement. What deity do they serve? Sneak attack is still rubbish in the OC/MotB (unless your deity likes rapiers or falchions), so I don't see any point in going with a Shadowbane Stalker PrC.

    And isn't "Natural Leader" still broken?

    Post edited by Fardragon on
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    It's kind of broken. People have found it to be working sporadically, but with no definite pattern.

  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    edited December 2015
    By the way, in case someone might be interested

    Post edited by iKrivetko on
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 677
    A hunt through the dark is a very fun module..although I only tried the Nwn1 version like 8 years ago or so. But I'm guessing the remastered version is just as good.

  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    I always had fun playing crazy stat-boosts, rather than optimal builds. My favorite was always going to be the half-celestial dragon disciple. If you have all the expansions, you can enable half-celestial as a player race by tweaking one of the data files in a text editor:

    They have a -4 ECL, which is a lot, but you should still finish OC around level 18, as you will score more XP for having a lower level through much of the game. Main problem with half-celestials is the overpowered special abilities, which I simply opt to not use until hitting some predefined (by me) level where access to the ability is not totally out of order compared to effects other characters might access.

    I also had an interesting time arrange for a PC to be both Arcane Trickster and a dragon. Again, far from optimal, but fun pulling together all the different parts (using the thief path through OC for the right prestige class) - don't think I tried that as a half-celestial yet though. Hmmm, perhaps another play through...

  • Ignatius_J_ReillyIgnatius_J_Reilly Member Posts: 24
    I've made at least a half-dozen attempts at getting through the NWN2 OC, the latest attempt using my evil Aasimar soreceress, but each time I can never get through it. There are just so many things wrong with the OC:

    - The "Get Into Blacklake" questline is maddeningly drawn-out. First you have to a series of quests for the Thieves or the Watch, and none of them are particularly interesting. Then you have to trudge through not one but TWO orc caves that offer nothing but the same type of encounter again again. It's just so tedious.

    - The game insists on saddling you with party members who have absolutely awful personalities. Bishop made me want to punch him in the face the second he opened his mouth, and Qara is just a hilariously terrible person (which inspired me to add her into my BG novelisation as a foil to CHARNAME). And you have NO CHOICE but to accept them into your party, even when they have no plot relevance whatsoever.

    Other party members are just bland. Casavir and Elanee don't have much to their characters, and their "romances" felt extremely shallow. Apparently Casavir was developing feelings for my PC, despite the fact that A: he's much older than she is, and B: she barely talked to him!

    - The graphics engine is terribly optimised. Now, I don't have the most powerful machine around, but when I can get smoother graphics in Crysis on full graphical settings, you know you've got some bad code.

    - The bugs are everywhere. Party members randomly teleporting (sometimes right into the boss chamber of the dungeon!). Party members randomly equipping each others' weapons. Party members' voices suddenly been pitch-shifted up or down for no apparent reason. And so on. During the first battle at Crossroad Keep, I suddenly found myself unable to advance after defeating the boss. I couldn't leave the room, and the one NPC I could talk to would suddenly break off conversation. It turned out that during the battle, an NPC had gotten killed that was supposed to deliver an additional line of dialogue that would advance the plot. Since I had no means of resurrecting him, I had to redo the entire battle.

    - When you trigger a dialogue with a boss character, it INSTANTLY teleports your main character to them, even if she's halfway across the map. This is bad, especially when playing as a spellcaster who shouldn't be anywhere near melee combat.

    It's such a shame, because NWN2 has probably the richest implementation of D&D 3.5 around (although ToEE is more faithful). I don't think there's a game with this many class and race options available, and there's the potential for some great user-generated content.

  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,427
    edited January 2016
    NWN2 is in a strange position for me. It's so far my most favorite RPG ever but I don't think I could ever recommend it to other people unless they value the exact same things that I do out of a game/story. Example being the jank controls sometimes that I fixed by using the voice command-things. They helped out A LOT but it's such an unintuitive way of controlling party members.

    I'm also totally not done with this game yet. I've beat the OC, MotB, SoZ, and now I need to start on Mysteries of Westgate and then try some player-made modules. I've heard good things about Wulverheim, IWD in NWN2, and the persistent server Sword Coast Chronicles. I'll probably take a look at that list of modules linked above later for more content. I could play this game foreeevveerrrrr! XD

    Post edited by Vallmyr on
  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    edited January 2016
    There's also a remake of BG available, and a remake of BG2 is on its way. By the way, the BGTSCC PW has that very annoying 3b20 policy which limits character building in a very annoying way. 3b20 stands for 3 levels before level 20, meaning that every class you choose must have at least three levels before you reach level 20.
    The game insists on saddling you with party members who have absolutely awful personalities.
    You can kill all of them if you like. You'd have to finish the game for that though :D

  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,427
    edited January 2016
    Yeah looking at Sword Coast Chronicles it seems they've also made it so you need 19 base dex to enter the shadowdancer. I assume this is so not everyone abuses the Hips cheese. At least with Piro canonly being a Bard X/Shadowdancer 2 I can just the extra level on. I'll get summon shadow which is neat. Does the shadow improve with SD levels like in 3.5? I'm looking at the wiki and can't tell.

    Edit: I've tried starting a few characters in SCC but I can't find out where I'm supposed to go or what I'm supposed to do. I've tried starting on both the frontier and in the city. I also can't seem to find a vendor that sells basic arms and armor @[email protected]. I'll have to look more in-depth at it when I get the chance.

  • iKrivetkoiKrivetko Member Posts: 934
    I'm fairly sure that the shadow doesn't improve with level, at least in vanilla. Not that I've ever used it.

  • NotabarbiegirlNotabarbiegirl Member Posts: 143
    The vanilla game can be buggy at times. Make certain you update/patch after install, the updates address some of the worst bugs.

    As for the NPCs, I truly recommend stopping by G3 and getting the Neverwinter Nights 2 OC Romance Pack v4. This is essential in my book. Casiver will now say something other than "Old Owl Well" after installing, Bishop is still an ass, but that is part of his charm. There are some surprises along the way that I will not spoil.

    There are a lot of really good Mods out there that are total campaigns on there own. Many of these make having NWN2 well worth while even after finishing the OC and MOTB.

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,421
    edited January 2016
    iKrivetko said:

    By the way, the BGTSCC PW has that very annoying 3b20 policy which limits character building in a very annoying way. 3b20 stands for 3 levels before level 20, meaning that every class you choose must have at least three levels before you reach level 20.

    Many major RP servers tend to do that to discourage powergaming.

    A Monk 1/Druid 29 is untouchable since they can max WIS and they even get a spell that adds +12 to their WIS in the end.
    That's Dodge AC that stacks with everything.
    Druids are already powerhouses there.

    Another is Shadowdancer 1. You ignore the rest of the class to get early HiPS. Which is generally broken and makes you undetectable.

    Now let's imagine that Monk 1/Druid 28/Shadowdancer 1 is possible. That's a combat monster.

    There are a few more but it's basically telling you "roleplaying is more important than powergaming".
    Bard1/RDD 10 or Cleric dipping to get Divine Might/Armor is overused in all servers.

    If it hasn't been said already, Kaedrin's pack and Tony K's AI are must-haves.
    K's pack adds a bunch of races, classes, prestige classes, spells, feats and items.
    Then it fixes bugs found in those.
    And finally it rebalances certain classes that were weak.

    Tony K's AI makes enemies and allies smarter and adds more AI options in the Behavior tab.

    Post edited by Archaos on
  • KorbuKorbu Member Posts: 61
    Vallmyr said:

    Glad to see another join the NWN2 Playing Group-thing! XD

    [Spoiler] I made rest to Myrkul's soul and now he is truly dead. This is one of my favorite moments in D&D gaming. I got to talk to a God of the Dead and "killed" him! THAT'S SO COOL! n_n. Now to move on to take claim of my silver sword. [/Spoiler]

    I can see why people told me prior that a Necromancer run of this game would be very fitting. I think my Necro-Bard still fits the RP for it.

    Actually, Myrkul isn't really dead. A portion of his essence lived on in the Crown of Horns, and Myrkul comes back after the Sundering. As does Bhaal...

    A Necro/Bard, is otherwise known as a Dirgesinger. Bareris Anskuld in Richard Lee Byer's "Haunted Lands" series became a Dirgesinger. I think there was a Drow Dirgesinger in one of R.A. Salvatore's books too.

  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,427
    Dirgesingers are hype~! I love playing them in 3.5/Pathfinder PnP and is most certainly my favorite class. NWN1 has it due to the Consortium mod but unfortunately Kaedrin's PRC doesn't have it :(

    Also, there are canon books about Dirgesinger characters o_o
    I thought it was just a cool prestige class in . . . Was it Libris Mortis or Heroes of Horror? I have both IRL. Pathfinder has the Dirge Bard Archetype as well which is essentially the same thing but as alterations to the base class.

    I'm wondering if Bard/Pale Master or Bard/Blackguard would make a cooler undead summoning Bard.

    I'm going to look into these now.

  • AutequiAutequi Member Posts: 403
    Aw, I missed out on this thread! I was playing NWN2 around the same time as you, maybe a little later.

    It was fun reading through your thoughts of the game. I agree about the NPC dynamics; I loved it that you couldn't please one party member without ticking off another, sometimes.

    I played with the Romance Pack (recommended above by Notabarbiegirl) installed, and it helped out Casavir a LOT. Unfortunately it introduced a bug during the squire vigil which I had to cheat my way out of, but overall recommended.

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    NWN2 is one of my great nostalgic favorites, and I would expect to replay it then and again ad infinitum.

    I especially love the party members, they are so well written and voice acted, having interesting dynamics between each other independent of your CHAR. And it's quite the ego-fest for a female avatar to have Casavir and Bishop bicker endlessly over you, lol. Only one I'm possibly bit cooler towards is Qara, she seems to be on a petulant power-trip, but I am sure she has her fans - I am not needed.

    Pity obviously they cut out lot of the Casavir story-arch, and it was a hard job forgiving Obsidian in my case for not making Sand romanceable. :-p

    I admit that it feels bit of a chore to get to the city of Neverwinter, as you cannot choose from many companions and it's quite linear progression, from there on NWN2 evolves into a delightful game. (IMO)

    I thought the trial was an excellent story element, as well as getting a keep - must have been one of the first-timers in RPGs, that one. And big applause for letting the player skip the tutorial chapter - wish BG2 had afforded similar option for Irenicus dungeon...

    I frankly pine after NWN3! With Sand making return. Here's hoping...

  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,427
    I plan to play all the way through NWN2 again eventually with a male protagonist, most likely a Drow.

    I still need to do Mysteries of Westgate. I have a character in the middle of it, a Feytouched Rogue 2/Spirit Shaman 2/Bard 6/Cainith Lyrist 1 (Kaedrin's PRC only mod used atm).

    But again since it's been ages since I played NWN2 I'd prob start that campaign over.

    Even now after I feel the hype should've worn off I still love NWN2 and it's still my favorite CRPG. I still need to play SoD and ToB though so maybe those will push BG over it again, we'll see.

  • AutequiAutequi Member Posts: 403
    Sand was great. I love the witty and sarcastic type.

    Apparently there is cut content between Sand and Qara where Sand is cast in a less-than-flattering light.

    *sticks fingers in ears* I don't wanna hear it!

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    Autequi said:

    Apparently there is cut content between Sand and Qara where Sand is cast in a less-than-flattering light.

    *sticks fingers in ears* I don't wanna hear it!

    Wot!? In less-than-flattering light???

    My pro-Sand filter will be strong, and my fingers deep in my ears... but I am curious though! So if you have a link that sheds light to this content, could you post a link, please, Autequi? :-)

    I actually also enjoyed seeing fan-art from a fellow-gamer's head-canon that Sand and Torio were actually tragic ex-lovers, and the trial was a big "hate-after-love" clash. I never would have imagined it so on my own initiative, but it was sort of... tantalizing story concept, actually.

    I think one just got to love communal imagination, and fact digging, of gamers! <3

  • AutequiAutequi Member Posts: 403
    TStael said:

    My pro-Sand filter will be strong, and my fingers deep in my ears... but I am curious though! So if you have a link that sheds light to this content, could you post a link, please, Autequi? :-)

    I got it from Lt. Danger's Let's Play on

    Keep in mind that that is his/her interpretation of events, though. Sand's article on NWN2wikia is more neutral in tone.
    TStael said:

    I actually also enjoyed seeing fan-art from a fellow-gamer's head-canon that Sand and Torio were actually tragic ex-lovers, and the trial was a big "hate-after-love" clash.

    That would explain a lot!

  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    I thought NWN2 Main campaign was amazingly good. It was just marred (and still is) by rather a lot of game breaking and sequence breaking bugs

  • TStaelTStael Member Posts: 861
    Autequi said:

    That would explain a lot!

    It would indeed, wouldn't it? But thanks a bunch for posting the links Autequi - impressive someone has bothered to replicate the actual script of the scene so comprehensibly, and great that you came across it.

    Since Obsidian seems firmly back in business with Eternity, someone really should ambush the guys, and quiz them: "What's this with Sand and Qara? After all these years, we still want to know! (And ship Sand across to whatever you do next already so we can romance him, finally)" :-p

    Another thing I really like about NWN2 is its approach to character classes - I loved you could essentially mix-n-match your classes based on meeting skills (and alignment for some). This created IMO very enjoyable inter-play of primary stats, skills and feats.

  • GreenWarlockGreenWarlock Member Posts: 1,354
    NWN2 was set up very well. A single game that would take you from lvl 1 to lvl 20, being reasonably balanced most of the way, other than power builds. That was essentially the whole permitted level range form PnP when the game was designed.

    You start from a small corner of the world, slowly expanding concerns as many plots intersect trying to bring you down, and the game is probably at its fullest towards the end of act 1, where you finally get to start tying up the first threads, and each successive act seems to take care of one of those threads. So the story structure plays well for me, but might be more convoluted than a strictly linear plot would deliver, where all events are related to the one big-bad from start to finish. (The game is still fairly linear in the order you get to resolve plot-threads.)

    The only part of the game that really drags for me is the trip to Old Owl Well. It just feels like it is riffing off what we have already done, substituting orcs for lizard men. I'm ready to make more sense of Neverwinter at this point, rather than being pushed into more generic questing. I don't remember finding any particularly interesting loot on that trip either, anything that would stay with me beyond the Old Owl Well trip itself.

    Otherwise, yes, NWN2 was my favorite FRP since the Balder's Gate series, and a fairly close second. The only other RPG I have enjoyed to the same extent was the Mass Effect series - you may be spotting a theme here ;)

    Still would be curious to see a modern re-interpretation of the Eye of the Beholder series though :)

  • BelgarathMTHBelgarathMTH Member Posts: 5,610
    @GreenWarlock , What did you think about Mask of the Betrayer? I've played the NWN2 OC a dozen times or so since its release, but I've never even gotten through MotB a single time. The one time I got pretty deep into it, I was only about half way through, when the spirit eater mechanic, combined with every "trash mob" being a huge tactical battle (often without spells for PC caster), and the fact that I wasn't connecting with ANY of the new NPC's, caused me to completely lose interest and move on to other games. To this day, I've still never been able to stomach the idea of a complete MotB run.

    I somewhat recently (meaning a couple or three months ago) leveled a druid to level 20 through the OC, and was standing with that Thayan at the beginning of MotB, and I immediately lost interest and wanted to play something else.

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