I understand that the robe of vecna will allow you to cast a spell and still manage all 10 attacks in one round but I usually pre-buff so the only time I cast with my FMT during a fight is if I need to bring down enemy protections and my other two mages can't handle it on their own. Most rounds in a fight I would probably still get 10 attacks a round using a speed combo wouldn't I? I do tend to use items sometimes and I may need to cast improved haste on myself in a long fight but I would think most rounds would go by with my FMT chunking away at 10APR. Maybe you do a lot more casting with your FMT then I do. I did use the robe of vecna during SOA but when I switched to the elven chain in TOB I was still gaining off hand potential so I didn't really notice a difference at the time. I guess I will have to keep a closer eye on it this time around.
Just to be clear, you usually use daggers in BG1 and don't bother with Katana's in SOA? This seems like a pretty tough decision for character building but I would like to try your ideas on this next run.
My main goal when micromanaging my characters is to always use their aura, every rounds so yes I'll cast a lot with my F/M/T but also use a lot of consumables and HLAs. The only way to benefit from 10APR is to stand still doing nothing but attacking while the enemy stand still which is quite rare as I often need to move out of AoE spells like Remove Magic to prevent the spell effect to spread to my party members or I move out of sight to use a trap and hide, or the enemy is moving while I attack it and so forth. Even using a potion will prevent you from using your 10 APRs fully (you will be able to use 9 APR instead). I also use Detect Illusions a lot. Finally I think my main argument is that it's simply unneeded, even with 7 APRs, even if the critter is immune to backstabs, you will kill it in less than a round as long as you properly strip it from its protections (2-3 rounds at most against bosses if soloing).
For example in my last run SCS no-reload I was playing a Blackguard with Sarevok, Dorn, Edwin, Hexxat (keepered into a F/M/T) and Viconia (who got chunked in Abazigal's Lair) and I killed both Demogorgon and Amelyssan in less than a round. Enemies don't have enough HP to survive this kind of damage (Dorn and my Charmane were using GWW, the latter usually doing 400 damage per rounds) it doesn't really matter if you do 400 damage per round or 250, the foe will die in a round.
So I don't really like speed weapons for characters able to cast like Fighter dualled into Mage, F/M, F/M/T.
But I do like them for characters that will do nothing but attack like a single class Berserker.
I'm not a huge fan of Katanas because I play BG1 a lot and there aren't a lot of these here. But I intend to play a run with the Tactics Mod soon and I will probably try going Daggers ** TWS ** then Katanas ** to wield both Sanchuudoku +4 (from the mod) and Celestial Fury +3 early in the game, it will be a deadly combination for sure.
Kensai dualed to Thief with Carsomyr, Aslyerfund Chain Armor, and like 90% magic resistance. You can use Time Stop scrolls and hack everything to death, or you can just go Rambo and chunk everything. If you've got the patience you can even get your Kensai with GWW then dual to Thief and nothing will ever kill you. I'm talking a fully protected Irenicus taken down in one round with just one guy. Kai>GWW>goodbye. There are more raw damage kits out there, but nothing really equates to this kit in terms of actual OPness. Maatch those kits up with this and then consider things like: Stoneskin, Protection from Magical Weapons, ADHW... you name it this fellow can do it. The ultimate warrior.
That being said I'm a purist and love my Mages/Sorcerers. They're basically just as OP as the above, but the above can wipe the floor with them.
Thanks Gotural, I will take it in to consideration. I know I am going to win the game because I have beaten it on the hardest settings multiple times. I am not really worried if an extra attack a round hits or not but at this point I am trying to optimize the character output just for the fun of it. If I don't get all 10 attacks a round because I wanted to cast a spell that is ok with me as long as there is a reasonable payoff for this sacrifice. I can see it being worth it to use the armor over the robe not just for my FMT but for my mages and the rest of the party as a whole. I will give it another, closer look this time around and see what I like best before settling in on one or the other. I will try using the robe of vecna during TOB and see how I feel about it.
Another thing to consider is that my optimization and micro management is being extended to every character in my party just to keep things interesting. Some times I am more interested in what I can do with 6 characters at one time than I am with maximizing a single characters output so I am willing to make sacrifices at times.
This is my favourite class by far, infact a good 40% of my single player play throughs are beserkers and 95% of my multi player play throughs have beserkers in them as well, and the reason being? All around they rock for stats and kicking but while having some great defence, let my delve a little deeper;
Weaponry: in single player I always choose two handed sword and two handed weapon fighting, and half the time I choose half-orc to start with a nice OP str of 19, this calls for some serious hitting power, even in bg1 im popping out critical hits over 50 damage without the mits of weapon specialization, once the str hits 20, and with 4 stars in two handed sword, and wielding the two handed sword +3, I cause some serious destruction
Beserker Rage: this ability needs to get the platinum medal in the BG Series Useful Abilities Olympics, because to be perfectly honest it is OP as hell, lets see; immune to every nasty mind influencing effect, immune to level drain ( LOL!) and AND immune to imprisonment ( double LOL!!) and to top it off, it gives 2 to hit/ to damage and AC, so with all this godliness that means in bg1, the killer sirines are lol baddies that give great experience, in bg2 the deadliness of mind flayers turn them into whip cream and cake smothered in easy XP because their menacing attacks are trivial, and even the feared attacks of liches, demiliches, and high end beholders can all be laughed at with the awesome beserk ability, so then you might say, well with an ability that awesome, there must be some huge drawbacks? well let's take a gander: it only lasts for 1 turn ( 10 rounds) which in reality unless it is a mega mega huge big boss fight, battles won't last longer than that before you can recuperate, and when it's over, you take -2 to hit/damage/ AC ( which in bg2 is almost negligible) and back in the vanilla days it would do 15 damage to you ( possibly killing you if your HP was low) but now they changed that so it does subdual damage instead so it can't kill you, which really made the ability all the more OP
HP: hp on beserkers are also great especially if you have 19 or 21 con , you will hit in the 200+ by early to mid ToB no sweat ( also depending on what trails you took in hell) which well make you have way more endurance than any paladin or ranger, with the only exceptions of barbarians and dwarven defenders, but this is where the beserker shines over them:
AC: a beserker in general will always have an AC better than a barbarian, because beserkers can wear full plate mail their ACs can really hit some low values, plus, the armor modifiers on full plate mail are crazy good, yes eventually a barbarian will eventually catch up, but even then again, full plate mail has way better modifiers than splint mail does, and some people may say, the difference in ToB of -10 to -15 doesn't make a difference, and the reality is; if you're pumping -10 with splint mail, and -15 with full platemail , you will notice a HUGE difference, if you can make a big boss miss you with an attack roll of 5, that could be the difference between defeat and victory
Weapon Profs: this is where the beserker surpasses barbarian and dwarven defender, being able to have 5 slots in ANY weapon, is beautiful some may say the difference between 2 and 5 isn't much, and 4 and 5 is barely noticeable, but no what? that little extra half attack again could be the difference between victory and defeat, and that little extra omf from highing 5 slots in a weapon with a faster attack speed could also mean the difference between victory and defeat
So all in all, when it comes to melee bashing, I love the beserker; great HP, great AC, great damage dealing, great attacks per round, great resistances, all around great class
Pretty awesome description! What weapons would you start the game with? Is there a combination potions/scrolls that you might use too?
Train in Halberds, not TH swords. You want the upgraded + 5 Ravager in the end game. It's probably the most OP weapon in the game when paired with GWW and Grand Mastery. The fact that you can insta kill the user of Ravager using Wave ... also a halberd! ... makes this choice even sweeter. And yes, berserkers are in themselves ridiculously OP.
Train in Halberds, not TH swords. You want the upgraded + 5 Ravager in the end game. It's probably the most OP weapon in the game when paired with GWW and Grand Mastery. The fact that you can insta kill the user of Ravager using Wave ... also a halberd! ... makes this choice even sweeter. And yes, berserkers are in themselves ridiculously OP.
Actually did just that, 2 points in halberds and I'm having a great time so far. I'm just wrecking enemies. 2 pips in halberds, 2 in two handed weapon style. Level 5 currently, but I think I would also like to get some pips in two handed swords to use the spider's bane, since I think there are no good halberds for the whole of BG1.
You can do both, start ** in Two Handed Swords and ** in Two Handed Weapon Style, at level 9 you have Grand Mastery (*****) in Two Handed Swords because in BG1 Swords are superior to Halberds with the excellent Spider's Bane and The World's Edge +3, in the beggining of BG2 you can wield the Sword of Chaos +2 and Lilarcor +3 right from the start, and you will have Grand Mastery in Halberds at level 24 which should be soon enough to correctly use The Ravager when it becomes available.
Actually I just found that you can get the Chesley Crusher. Seems great, but sets attacks to 1 per round, so I'm not sure if it's worth it.
It's a great weapon for non-APR gaining char's like Bards, and I think I've read that someone stated it's great for Garrick. Haven't tried it myself, but it sounds good.
Just thought of something, does the "set APR to 1" override everything? I know it hinders class level based APR and haste spells, but does it also block +1 APR from ie offensive spin?
For fighter CHARNAME's it's probably better to, as @Gotural points out, go with two-hand swords instead for BG1 and switch over to halberds later on in BG2.
@Skatan When I last tried more than a year ago, Offensive Spin worked wonder with the Chesley Crusher, giving maximum damage and 2 APR.
Recently @semiticgod reported on the 'Did you know?' thread that in EE, Offensive Spin stacks with Oil of Speed despite that it doesn't with regular Haste effects, so I wonder if you could wield that halberd with 3 APR, it would be a very deadly combo in BG:EE.
@Skatan When I last tried more than a year ago, Offensive Spin worked wonder with the Chesley Crusher, giving maximum damage and 2 APR.
Recently @semiticgod reported on the 'Did you know?' thread that in EE, Offensive Spin stacks with Oil of Speed despite that it doesn't with regular Haste effects, so I wonder if you could wield that halberd with 3 APR, it would be a very deadly combo in BG:EE.
FMT ~~ My own nature is such that a base of versatility, allowing soloing or being valuable to almost any party, with optimal chances of having an answer for every situation that could arise seems precisely the kind of character I would be in a D@D world. Particularly if I was mostly a brilliant Rogue, very good Fighter and only adequate as Mage.
It might then be suggested that UAI pretty much achieves that level of Magery through Scrolls and Wands. But I definitely want access to Buffs and Dispel/Chaos type spells as inherent to the character. The major offensive spells I would only have access to through scrolls, etc.
Then I could rock the world with Aerie....[who is actually Uma Thurman]
Hide in Shadows and Move Silently both require at least 100 points to work reliably indoors or at night and 200 points to work everytime even in the sunlight. It is an enormous investment for a F/T and you will spend most of your time running around during fights while you could simply attack and deal more damage. Plus it means you will be unable to pick locks, detect traps and so forth for a huge part of the game.
Well, since you stretch your arguments over the whole saga, let's begin with BG1. Your are right with the above statement. But this supports my point more than yours. If you pick a F/T over the F/M/T, you not only have 25 more points from the level to spend, but also you can use the Shadow Armor, which gives another 15 to Hide in Shadows. You *will* be able to benefit from traditional hide'nslash tactics for a good portion of BG1 *and* pick your locks, if you go for the F/T. In addition, as F/M/T, in BG1 you are capped to Mage level 6, meaning other than regular Invis you are not able to cast any meaningful illusionary magic. And this can be achieved throuh your regular group mage as well. The F/M/T doesn't start to pay off before BG2.
The Mage part of the F/M/T isn't necessary, but it is a big plus and you don't lose anything in exchange. Until 500,000 XP you will lose one level of Fighter and Thief to have acces to the Mage class; A F/M/T 8/9/10 is ten time stronger than a level 9/11 F/T.
For all BG1 you will trade 1 THAC0 and 25 skill points for the Mage class, I think this speaks for itself.
Well that, and that you are trailing behind in terms of HP, saves, and potentially damage. This amplifies to high degrees if you compare your elven F/M/T with a dwarven F/T with its huge CON bonus, and the resulting gulf in HP *and* Saving Throws(con-based shorty saves). And that gap never closes.
Finally the Kensai 13 => Thief is a bad build overall. During 60% of the saga (BG1 + half of BG2) you are stuck as a singleclass Kensai which is horrible,...
Well, it is anything but a bad build. It is of course a more rocky road, until this build is fully matrialized. But depending on your party composition in can be totally worth it. Even if you play unmodded without further quest mods, you can dual at 13 and have your Kensai levels back by the time you arrive in the Underdark. That only requires you to do a number of the side quests in Ch2, but by far not all of them. But what you then get is a kai-capable brutal damage dealer with the full HP pool of a human fighter, that can hack the biggies to pieces like nobody else either from the shadows, or straight up in the face. Compare HP, damage output and Saving Throws of that guy with your elven F/M/T at 2.1mill XP. The difference is quite staggering. The equipment penalties till UAI are actually not that hard to manage. Things like Spirit Armor, Shield Amulet, Rings of Protection & Earth Control still allow you to reach reasonable AC levels(it becomes a total non-issue once you start playing with mods, but that is not the topic here). Shortly after half time on the XP table, you get access to your HLAs, and then the whole thing really starts taking off. Since you are only levelling as Thief after dualing, you are also able to get your Hide/Move in Shadows into the 200s quickly and *all* the other skills up to 100, too. In the end, it is like you mentioned, a lot about playing style and party composition, when it gets to determine *superior*. A general judgement isn't possible.
"Level 5 currently, but I think I would also like to get some pips in two handed swords to use the spider's bane, since I think there are no good halberds for the whole of BG1.<<
OK, that is true, and Spider's Bane is indeed quite a useful weapon. For that matter, in SoA there is Lilarcor, which is an excellent TH sword, if a bit mouthy. I generally use that until Wave becomes available. Grab some pips in TH sword also.
I didn't managed to read all the posts in this thread so apologies if this has been mentioned before.
I just love Half Elf Ranger/Clerics pre-nerf (reactivate ability by changing baldur.ini cleric ranger spell value from 0 to 1)
- Iron Skin on top of low AC - Can get 85% damage resistance: DoEH in Offahnd + Spirit Armor + Hardiness in case Iron Skin is down. - Righteous Magic = 25 Str and Maximum damage, DuHM = 25 in Dex and Con - Legitimately get 25 in Wisdom: Start with 18 + 3 tomes in BG1 = 21, +1 from Deck of Many things + 1 From Lum Machine and +1 from Hell Trials!!!! Gives massive increase in Spell Slots! RP wise if your gonna be a Child of Bhaal with a murderous taint beckoning your descent into evil it make sense to have super human wisdom to successfully resist it. - 4 APR with Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, 8 with Improved Haste. - Shuts down enemy spell casting with insect line - Immune to most status effect with the right buff - Great summons - Harm + Low THaC0 or Critical Strike = Extremely fast kill vs even Dragons provided their resistance gets lowered first of course. Also kinda works like a back stab replacement when you can caste Harm first and hide in Shadows and bam, a pseudo Thief. - Can sneak with the best armor in game (White Dragon Scale Armor), Sanctuary when needing rebuff. - Fireseed + Greater Deathblow mows down hordes of enemies.
You still need to play tactically since your buffs can be dispelled. But you have enough AC to just stand there and caste more protection as needed. Unlike a F/M you can't just walk in buffed up the wazoo and demolish everything unless there are no enemy spell casters in sight. Reactive play-style is fun but still powerful.
@biffyclanger Cleric/Rangers also offer some wonderful RP choices particularly in re Charname's similarities and differences to/from the Druid Class [Jaheira]. This would probably be my 2nd favorite class. Having both Ranger and Cleric summoning can become quite powerful and amplifies the shut-down ability of Insect Plague [BGII].
I also like Inquisitor for a strong class with a powerful Dispel ability that offers a completely different RP experience. [Note-My Grandparents were Presbyterian Missionaries in Japan [1905-39] thrown into Jail at least twice in the lead-up to Pearl Harbor. So religion based strife is part of my Jungian conscience.
FYI there is a +2 halberd in the game, which on it's own is nothing spectacular. However, read the description and you will see that the damage type is slashing or piercing, whichever is better! Nice versatility but if you really want to play a fighter like no other, take 2 levels of a specialist mage and then multi-class to vanilla fighter.
Half-Orc Fighter/Thief, using Darts and Quarterstaff.
Usually I use EEKeeper to make myself a Fighter/Assassin...
Anyway: traps are the best way to deal with the major battles in BGEE, BG2EE and ToB. Poison is a plus: it really helps against Wizards.
My first run was using a Wizard. And I got really upset noticing that in ToB no one ever fails a damn saving throw. And it is boring being obligated to cast Greater Malison to be able to do something useful. Most of the fights I just watched my tanks spiling the enemys' blood and my thief dealing with major problems like lichs and dragons all by himself.
Backstabing in ToB with an Assassin using the Staff of Ram +6 is really nice.
Bonus: get UAI to use the Staff of the Magi and you'll never have to worry about being killed.
Half-Orc Fighter/Thief, using Darts and Quarterstaff.
Usually I use EEKeeper to make myself a Fighter/Assassin...
Anyway: traps are the best way to deal with the major battles in BGEE, BG2EE and ToB. Poison is a plus: it really helps against Wizards.
My first run was using a Wizard. And I got really upset noticing that in ToB no one ever fails a damn saving throw. And it is boring being obligated to cast Greater Malison to be able to do something useful. Most of the fights I just watched my tanks spiling the enemys' blood and my thief dealing with major problems like lichs and dragons all by himself.
Backstabing in ToB with an Assassin using the Staff of Ram +6 is really nice.
Bonus: get UAI to use the Staff of the Magi and you'll never have to worry about being killed.
I honestly could not decide between Mage/Thief and Cleric/Mage.
Mage/Thieves are extraordinary. They are all the thief the party could need, they can easily take down almost anything with their snares, they have enough THAC0 to actually hit what they're aiming at, and later on they start tossing out timestops and 20D6 Spike Traps while swinging Crom Faeyr and backstabbing for hundreds of damage and ensuring you don't need to pay for at least a third of the best items out there.
Cleric/Mages are also extraordinary. They get enough cleric levels to outright chunk a vast proportion of nasty enemies and crowd control the rest, they can't equip Belm so they're free to wield two weapons that are actually decent when they need damage, and slap on a shield when they need to tank (and can easily hit -16 AC and below in SoA even with the Robe of Vecna while they wreck face with a sling or a Flail, thanks to having the second best THAC0 progression in the game), where their massive arrays of buffs can make them invisible, untouchable juggernauts immune to death, confusion, domination, stun, hold, fear, dispelling, and true seeing while being perfectly capable of dealing out those same effects with near impunity even when surrounded by enemies.
Their level 3 Cleric spells can be spent on a party friendly AOE damage/blind and one of the strongest summons in the game, with any spare slots being AOE recovery for any CC'd allies, and even Harm for any enemy unlucky enough to get stunned for a round before getting into Implosion, which is the best single target attack spell there is, C/Ms are arguably the best spellcasters in the game bar none, especially gnomic ones.
And both of them are full mages that end up with 20 CL, meaning full level 9 casting and all of the extraordinary self-buffs that make Mages such a powerhouse, especially if you go PnP style and add kits to that multiclass.
Nah, as long as your CHA is high enough, you can BS just about anyone. Backstabbing on the other hand...
But yeah, a lot of the enemies you'd want to backstab at that point are immune. It doesn't make it less enjoyable, but something to consider. Question: does anyone know exactly why that's so? I mean, I admit it's a little cheesy, but is there a PnP rationale behind some of the backstab immunities?
But yeah, a lot of the enemies you'd want to backstab at that point are immune. It doesn't make it less enjoyable, but something to consider. Question: does anyone know exactly why that's so? I mean, I admit it's a little cheesy, but is there a PnP rationale behind some of the backstab immunities?
Been playing a half-elf F/M/T and I am all in with this awesomeness. It kind of changes the entire feel of the game, like I'm playing Nameless One (Torment) again. The progression is SAAAA.....LLLOOOOOWWWW. And that's ok because this is a build for soloing anyways. Had to name it Kvothe because I am the new biggest fan of The Kingkiller Chronicles (wishing for a movie!) and that's pretty much what Kvothe (no spoiler really you get this pretty much from the first chapter) became. It's just so freeing to be so self reliant.
I'm working hard to enjoy a gnome wizard slayer, but the kit's downsides are way too heavy for it's benefits - specially the potions restrictions. Even if you install the Wizard Slayer Rebalancing Mod.
I never saw this kit in the Complete Fighter Handbook, do anyone have the original source for it?
In PnP, at least in my game, the Wizard Slayer would rock because you don't get tons of magical devices (and what those you get are usually armor and weapon). But in BG2, where using gear is kind of mandatory - ouch!
A simple sorcerer is my go to. I tend to go with very magic heavy parties (me, Dynaheir and eventually imoen dualled) I did enjoy a berserker turned mage too felt a bit cheesy though and upstaged Minsc too much) Wild mage is cool too.
I'm working hard to enjoy a gnome wizard slayer, but the kit's downsides are way too heavy for it's benefits - specially the potions restrictions. Even if you install the Wizard Slayer Rebalancing Mod.
I never saw this kit in the Complete Fighter Handbook, do anyone have the original source for it?
In PnP, at least in my game, the Wizard Slayer would rock because you don't get tons of magical devices (and what those you get are usually armor and weapon). But in BG2, where using gear is kind of mandatory - ouch!
I have seen struggles with that class and have picked on said player mercilessly about that character. " The poor things Father didn't love it and made it have a hard life"
@Mathsorcerer could possibly be persuaded in discussing his Wizard Slayer play-through. In all honesty, I have seen his character have some brilliant moments. Hint: party configuration does play a part of the strategy. I would also NOT recommend trying a no reload play with a Wizard Slayer.
Comments
Just to be clear, you usually use daggers in BG1 and don't bother with Katana's in SOA? This seems like a pretty tough decision for character building but I would like to try your ideas on this next run.
The only way to benefit from 10APR is to stand still doing nothing but attacking while the enemy stand still which is quite rare as I often need to move out of AoE spells like Remove Magic to prevent the spell effect to spread to my party members or I move out of sight to use a trap and hide, or the enemy is moving while I attack it and so forth.
Even using a potion will prevent you from using your 10 APRs fully (you will be able to use 9 APR instead).
I also use Detect Illusions a lot.
Finally I think my main argument is that it's simply unneeded, even with 7 APRs, even if the critter is immune to backstabs, you will kill it in less than a round as long as you properly strip it from its protections (2-3 rounds at most against bosses if soloing).
For example in my last run SCS no-reload I was playing a Blackguard with Sarevok, Dorn, Edwin, Hexxat (keepered into a F/M/T) and Viconia (who got chunked in Abazigal's Lair) and I killed both Demogorgon and Amelyssan in less than a round.
Enemies don't have enough HP to survive this kind of damage (Dorn and my Charmane were using GWW, the latter usually doing 400 damage per rounds) it doesn't really matter if you do 400 damage per round or 250, the foe will die in a round.
So I don't really like speed weapons for characters able to cast like Fighter dualled into Mage, F/M, F/M/T.
But I do like them for characters that will do nothing but attack like a single class Berserker.
I'm not a huge fan of Katanas because I play BG1 a lot and there aren't a lot of these here.
But I intend to play a run with the Tactics Mod soon and I will probably try going Daggers ** TWS ** then Katanas ** to wield both Sanchuudoku +4 (from the mod) and Celestial Fury +3 early in the game, it will be a deadly combination for sure.
That being said I'm a purist and love my Mages/Sorcerers. They're basically just as OP as the above, but the above can wipe the floor with them.
Another thing to consider is that my optimization and micro management is being extended to every character in my party just to keep things interesting. Some times I am more interested in what I can do with 6 characters at one time than I am with maximizing a single characters output so I am willing to make sacrifices at times.
Plus who doesn't want to be a pirate?
Pretty awesome description! What weapons would you start the game with? Is there a combination potions/scrolls that you might use too?
2 pips in halberds, 2 in two handed weapon style.
Level 5 currently, but I think I would also like to get some pips in two handed swords to use the spider's bane, since I think there are no good halberds for the whole of BG1.
Just thought of something, does the "set APR to 1" override everything? I know it hinders class level based APR and haste spells, but does it also block +1 APR from ie offensive spin?
For fighter CHARNAME's it's probably better to, as @Gotural points out, go with two-hand swords instead for BG1 and switch over to halberds later on in BG2.
Recently @semiticgod reported on the 'Did you know?' thread that in EE, Offensive Spin stacks with Oil of Speed despite that it doesn't with regular Haste effects, so I wonder if you could wield that halberd with 3 APR, it would be a very deadly combo in BG:EE.
It might then be suggested that UAI pretty much achieves that level of Magery through Scrolls and Wands. But I definitely want access to Buffs and Dispel/Chaos type spells as inherent to the character. The major offensive spells I would only have access to through scrolls, etc.
Then I could rock the world with Aerie....[who is actually Uma Thurman]
If you pick a F/T over the F/M/T, you not only have 25 more points from the level to spend, but also you can use the Shadow Armor, which gives another 15 to Hide in Shadows. You *will* be able to benefit from traditional hide'nslash tactics for a good portion of BG1 *and* pick your locks, if you go for the F/T.
In addition, as F/M/T, in BG1 you are capped to Mage level 6, meaning other than regular Invis you are not able to cast any meaningful illusionary magic. And this can be achieved throuh your regular group mage as well.
The F/M/T doesn't start to pay off before BG2.
This is somewhat true, although Mislead scrolls in particular are a pretty common random drop.
Well that, and that you are trailing behind in terms of HP, saves, and potentially damage. This amplifies to high degrees if you compare your elven F/M/T with a dwarven F/T with its huge CON bonus, and the resulting gulf in HP *and* Saving Throws(con-based shorty saves). And that gap never closes.
Well, it is anything but a bad build. It is of course a more rocky road, until this build is fully matrialized. But depending on your party composition in can be totally worth it. Even if you play unmodded without further quest mods, you can dual at 13 and have your Kensai levels back by the time you arrive in the Underdark. That only requires you to do a number of the side quests in Ch2, but by far not all of them.
But what you then get is a kai-capable brutal damage dealer with the full HP pool of a human fighter, that can hack the biggies to pieces like nobody else either from the shadows, or straight up in the face. Compare HP, damage output and Saving Throws of that guy with your elven F/M/T at 2.1mill XP. The difference is quite staggering. The equipment penalties till UAI are actually not that hard to manage. Things like Spirit Armor, Shield Amulet, Rings of Protection & Earth Control still allow you to reach reasonable AC levels(it becomes a total non-issue once you start playing with mods, but that is not the topic here).
Shortly after half time on the XP table, you get access to your HLAs, and then the whole thing really starts taking off.
Since you are only levelling as Thief after dualing, you are also able to get your Hide/Move in Shadows into the 200s quickly and *all* the other skills up to 100, too.
In the end, it is like you mentioned, a lot about playing style and party composition, when it gets to determine *superior*.
A general judgement isn't possible.
"Level 5 currently, but I think I would also like to get some pips in two handed swords to use the spider's bane, since I think there are no good halberds for the whole of BG1.<<
OK, that is true, and Spider's Bane is indeed quite a useful weapon. For that matter, in SoA there is Lilarcor, which is an excellent TH sword, if a bit mouthy. I generally use that until Wave becomes available. Grab some pips in TH sword also.
I just love Half Elf Ranger/Clerics pre-nerf (reactivate ability by changing baldur.ini cleric ranger spell value from 0 to 1)
- Iron Skin on top of low AC
- Can get 85% damage resistance: DoEH in Offahnd + Spirit Armor + Hardiness in case Iron Skin is down.
- Righteous Magic = 25 Str and Maximum damage, DuHM = 25 in Dex and Con
- Legitimately get 25 in Wisdom: Start with 18 + 3 tomes in BG1 = 21, +1 from Deck of Many things + 1 From Lum Machine and +1 from Hell Trials!!!! Gives massive increase in Spell Slots! RP wise if your gonna be a Child of Bhaal with a murderous taint beckoning your descent into evil it make sense to have super human wisdom to successfully resist it.
- 4 APR with Gauntlets of Extraordinary Specialization, 8 with Improved Haste.
- Shuts down enemy spell casting with insect line
- Immune to most status effect with the right buff
- Great summons
- Harm + Low THaC0 or Critical Strike = Extremely fast kill vs even Dragons provided their resistance gets lowered first of course. Also kinda works like a back stab replacement when you can caste Harm first and hide in Shadows and bam, a pseudo Thief.
- Can sneak with the best armor in game (White Dragon Scale Armor), Sanctuary when needing rebuff.
- Fireseed + Greater Deathblow mows down hordes of enemies.
You still need to play tactically since your buffs can be dispelled. But you have enough AC to just stand there and caste more protection as needed. Unlike a F/M you can't just walk in buffed up the wazoo and demolish everything unless there are no enemy spell casters in sight. Reactive play-style is fun but still powerful.
I also like Inquisitor for a strong class with a powerful Dispel ability that offers a completely different RP experience. [Note-My Grandparents were Presbyterian Missionaries in Japan [1905-39] thrown into Jail at least twice in the lead-up to Pearl Harbor. So religion based strife is part of my Jungian conscience.
Three words: familiar:wands:scrolls
Usually I use EEKeeper to make myself a Fighter/Assassin...
Anyway: traps are the best way to deal with the major battles in BGEE, BG2EE and ToB. Poison is a plus: it really helps against Wizards.
My first run was using a Wizard. And I got really upset noticing that in ToB no one ever fails a damn saving throw. And it is boring being obligated to cast Greater Malison to be able to do something useful. Most of the fights I just watched my tanks spiling the enemys' blood and my thief dealing with major problems like lichs and dragons all by himself.
Backstabing in ToB with an Assassin using the Staff of Ram +6 is really nice.
Bonus: get UAI to use the Staff of the Magi and you'll never have to worry about being killed.
Mage/Thieves are extraordinary. They are all the thief the party could need, they can easily take down almost anything with their snares, they have enough THAC0 to actually hit what they're aiming at, and later on they start tossing out timestops and 20D6 Spike Traps while swinging Crom Faeyr and backstabbing for hundreds of damage and ensuring you don't need to pay for at least a third of the best items out there.
Cleric/Mages are also extraordinary. They get enough cleric levels to outright chunk a vast proportion of nasty enemies and crowd control the rest, they can't equip Belm so they're free to wield two weapons that are actually decent when they need damage, and slap on a shield when they need to tank (and can easily hit -16 AC and below in SoA even with the Robe of Vecna while they wreck face with a sling or a Flail, thanks to having the second best THAC0 progression in the game), where their massive arrays of buffs can make them invisible, untouchable juggernauts immune to death, confusion, domination, stun, hold, fear, dispelling, and true seeing while being perfectly capable of dealing out those same effects with near impunity even when surrounded by enemies.
Their level 3 Cleric spells can be spent on a party friendly AOE damage/blind and one of the strongest summons in the game, with any spare slots being AOE recovery for any CC'd allies, and even Harm for any enemy unlucky enough to get stunned for a round before getting into Implosion, which is the best single target attack spell there is, C/Ms are arguably the best spellcasters in the game bar none, especially gnomic ones.
And both of them are full mages that end up with 20 CL, meaning full level 9 casting and all of the extraordinary self-buffs that make Mages such a powerhouse, especially if you go PnP style and add kits to that multiclass.
But yeah, a lot of the enemies you'd want to backstab at that point are immune. It doesn't make it less enjoyable, but something to consider. Question: does anyone know exactly why that's so? I mean, I admit it's a little cheesy, but is there a PnP rationale behind some of the backstab immunities?
I never saw this kit in the Complete Fighter Handbook, do anyone have the original source for it?
In PnP, at least in my game, the Wizard Slayer would rock because you don't get tons of magical devices (and what those you get are usually armor and weapon). But in BG2, where using gear is kind of mandatory - ouch!
@Mathsorcerer could possibly be persuaded in discussing his Wizard Slayer play-through. In all honesty, I have seen his character have some brilliant moments. Hint: party configuration does play a part of the strategy. I would also NOT recommend trying a no reload play with a Wizard Slayer.