I just love F/M/T, they are so fun to play and so powerful. You can do everything and use them in many, many ways.
Plus I really like the synergy between the classes for backstabbing.
-A Thief can backstab once, with average THAC0 and damage. -A Fighter/Thief can still backstab once, but with huge damage and excellent THAC0. -A Mage/Thief backstabs like a Thief, but can do it many times during a fight thanks to Invisibilityspells, Shadow Door and especially Mislead.
-A F/M/T can backstab many times with his magic thanks to his Mage levels, and all these backstabs will do great damage thanks to his Fighter levels. Best of both worlds.
I'm intrigued. Can that class tank effectively, armor and hit points good enough? I was thinking about running an all neutral party for BG2:EE. All of the neutral aligned characters are serious spell casters, no tried and true tanks (although blades have some insane defensive feats). So, I was going to go with a Dwarves Defender or a fighter-thief. BUT...triple class might be awesome!
I'm intrigued. Can that class tank effectively, armor and hit points good enough?
The short answer: Yes.
The just slightly longer answer: Yes, you're a mage so you have alot of buffs, though level up to ie stoneskins slower due to triple-class ofc, but since you can do much yourself you can run with a smaller party to offset this. You're a fighter so you can equip armor (though most likely won't do it very often for obvious reasons, 'cept maybe elven chain but it affects stealth). You don't need that much HP when you have things like stoneskin. In the very long run you'll get UAI, though you don't really need it since you can equip so much anyways, but it opens up certain possibilities for headgear etc.
F/M/T's are amazing, but to me they don't feel like a true class (I have difficulty RP'ing them, but that doesn't mean others can't ofc) and are somewhat powergamey.
I'm intrigued. Can that class tank effectively, armor and hit points good enough?
The short answer: Yes.
The just slightly longer answer: Yes, you're a mage so you have alot of buffs, though level up to ie stoneskins slower due to triple-class ofc, but since you can do much yourself you can run with a smaller party to offset this. You're a fighter so you can equip armor (though most likely won't do it very often for obvious reasons, 'cept maybe elven chain but it affects stealth). You don't need that much HP when you have things like stoneskin. In the very long run you'll get UAI, though you don't really need it since you can equip so much anyways, but it opens up certain possibilities for headgear etc.
F/M/T's are amazing, but to me they don't feel like a true class (I have difficulty RP'ing them, but that doesn't mean others can't ofc) and are somewhat powergamey.
I'm the gamer who can never make up his mind, so it's probably going to be a good fit for me.
F/M/T's are amazing, but to me they don't feel like a true class (I have difficulty RP'ing them, but that doesn't mean others can't ofc) and are somewhat powergamey.
I feel like in a system that normally has strict classes and niche protection, the F/M/T is useful for representing character archetypes that have a greater variety of skills. The character Zelgadis from Slayers, for instance, is a skilled mage, a capable swordsman, and also cracks a safe in one episode.
People tell me that the Ranger class is rubbish but I completely disagree! Being a Ranger is great because you can make yourself either a front-liner or an archer depending on the battle. Archers are really useful in a party and being away from the main fighting is a lot less risky for your main character (since the game ends if you die). Arrows are really easy to come across and you can find loads of different kinds depending on who you're fighting. Plus, you get an awesome THACO so you hardly ever miss
I'm in the middle of soloing Icewind Dale as an avenger, and the character just got to level 15, where she gains the ability to shapeshift into a water elemental, and it turns out that the water elemental form is REALLY overpowered. It's so overpowered that I'm probably going to avoid using it for most of the game. Why is it overpowered? Well, because it has 75% resistance to slashing, piercing, crushing and missile damage. Since you get it at level 15, the druid can cast Armor of Faith first so that he or she can have 95% physical damage resistance when he or she shapeshifts. Once he or she reaches level 20, he or she can become completely immune to all physical damage this way. Of course, there are various other ways to cheese through most of the game, but this is probably the simplest way. So, if you want to become almost invincible with almost no effort, play a druid, though they can also be very fun to play, depending on how you use them.
F/M/T. All weapons (and you will hit as well). Wands from start and all but the highest level mage spells. Backstabs and traps. The only thing you might miss is poison.
Second best, in my book, is F/T or F/M. Then Blade. Then Assassin.
Fighter. Simply because my main character will be the strongest level wise, so I use him to tank with AC -7 and high damage while my spellcasters back me up. Pretty simple technique but highly effective. A druid and a cleric as healers/ damage/debuff, an evoker for basically everything, a thief dealing ranged and another hard hitter. Can't go wrong.
@OlvynChuru: I remember exploiting that in vanilla IWD, before EE and therefore Armor of Faith. I used a Fighter->Druid dual-class to combine Water Elemental Form with the Great Shield +3 for 90% physical damage resistance. I was quite pleased with the result. I believe that was in a no-reload run.
F/M/T. All weapons (and you will hit as well). Wands from start and all but the highest level mage spells. Backstabs and traps. The only thing you might miss is poison.
Second best, in my book, is F/T or F/M. Then Blade. Then Assassin.
Pure rogue gets to thac0 10 faster by 580,000 xp then a triple class. After that the thac0 separation begins, so it's a grind.
I agree with berserker. Ridiculous immunities, and in the end game becomes an engine of destruction. Pick up 5 pips in halberds and 2 in THW, then get the Ravager in ToB and update it to the +5 version. Grab a few GWs as HLA. Kill anything, and more likely several anythings, on round 1 of combat.
F/M/T. All weapons (and you will hit as well). Wands from start and all but the highest level mage spells. Backstabs and traps. The only thing you might miss is poison.
Second best, in my book, is F/T or F/M. Then Blade. Then Assassin.
Pure rogue gets to thac0 10 faster by 580,000 xp then a triple class. After that the thac0 separation begins, so it's a grind.
There is also the question of APR though. More attacks will mean a better chance to hit and do damage.
I really enjoyed a few Stalker runs. It was nice to be able to scout/backstab and then stand and fight, unlike my usual thiefly runs.
How do you deal with the low AC? A stalker can't really hold the front line
With good equipement the stalker gets low enough. And later in the game, it gets more important to dish out your own damage fast (backstab then two weapon style) than to avoid enemies' damage (they will normally hit you no matter your AC).
>>How do you deal with the low AC? A stalker can't really hold the front line
There are a couple of fairly nice leather armors out there. In addition, I believe you can wear ankheg plate mail, which while fashioned in the shape of plate mail, is not composed of metal. At least, my Archer is wearing some, and I will assume the same rules would work for a Stalker.
>>How do you deal with the low AC? A stalker can't really hold the front line
There are a couple of fairly nice leather armors out there. In addition, I believe you can wear ankheg plate mail, which while fashioned in the shape of plate mail, is not composed of metal. At least, my Archer is wearing some, and I will assume the same rules would work for a Stalker.
Shadow Dragon Scale is the one to go for. You can't sneak in Ankhegs...
Oh, I have to add that the Ankheg armor does disable thief type skills, so you can't hide in shadows while wearing it. This is less of a problem for the Archer, since the Stalker may want to try for a backstab from ambush. But carry it as am alternate armor and change into it if you are planning on filling in a gap in the front line.
As someone else mentioned earlier, by early TOB it almost doesn't matter what armor you wear, the tougher critters can hit you regardless.
I just love F/M/T, they are so fun to play and so powerful. You can do everything and use them in many, many ways.
Plus I really like the synergy between the classes for backstabbing.
-A Thief can backstab once, with average THAC0 and damage. -A Fighter/Thief can still backstab once, but with huge damage and excellent THAC0. -A Mage/Thief backstabs like a Thief, but can do it many times during a fight thanks to Invisibilityspells, Shadow Door and especially Mislead.
-A F/M/T can backstab many times with his magic thanks to his Mage levels, and all these backstabs will do great damage thanks to his Fighter levels. Best of both worlds.
A F/T (or T) doesn't need a Mage part at all to pull off several backstabs. That's what "Hide in Shadows" is for. If you don't want to retreat around the corner to hide again, there are always Potions of Invisibility. Spells like Shadow Door, Mislead(if you really enjoy trivializing your game with exploitative tactics like these), etc can all be cast from a Scroll by your Rogue once you've gotten UAI. The same goes of course for protective Spells like Stoneskin, PfMW, and the likes. The Mage part of an F/M/T isn't necessary, unless you are playing solo. If you do play with a full party of 6, it even is detrimental to your character, as you are needlessly losing XP on the Mage part, which would be better used to bolster the F/T qualities. In addition, if you favor backstabs so much, going L13Kensai->Thief rules supreme anyway.
Hide in Shadows and Move Silently both require at least 100 points to work reliably indoors or at night and 200 points to work everytime even in the sunlight. It is an enormous investment for a F/T and you will spend most of your time running around during fights while you could simply attack and deal more damage. Plus it means you will be unable to pick locks, detect traps and so forth for a huge part of the game.
Potions of Invisibility are a consumable.
Scrolls are rare, and you won't be able to use them until you have UIA as a F/T which translates into at least 70% of the whole saga.
The Mage part of the F/M/T isn't necessary, but it is a big plus and you don't lose anything in exchange. Until 500,000 XP you will lose one level of Fighter and Thief to have acces to the Mage class; A F/M/T 8/9/10 is ten time stronger than a level 9/11 F/T.
For all BG1 you will trade 1 THAC0 and 25 skill points for the Mage class, I think this speaks for itself.
At 3,000,000 XP, the F/T (14/16) will have 2 more THAC0, 1/2 APR and 50 more skill points than the F/M/T (12/12/14) while the latter can cast spells up to level 6 which is totally better, he can cast Stoneskin / Mirror Image / Spell Immunity : Abjuration + Divination + Mislead every fights.
And from this point, the F/T doesn't progress much anymore, you already have too much skill points, you already maxed APR at level 13 Fighter and backstab at level 13 Thief while the F/M/T will continue to progress, he will get this 1/2 APR he was lacking earlier, and he will continue to advance in the Mage class.
Both multiclasses will get the same HLAs at 3,000,000 XP
So for the whole game a F/M/T will trade 1 or 2 THAC0 and 25 to 50 skill points (but he won't need to invest them in stealth) for the Mage class, it is definitely better.
Finally the Kensai 13 => Thief is a bad build overall. During 60% of the saga (BG1 + half of BG2) you are stuck as a singleclass Kensai which is horrible, then you are a low level Thief which is horrible too, finally you are a F/T with 7 more damage which is kinda useless as you are already backstabing for 100+ damage per hit as a F/M/T and nothing will survive that anyway so there is no point to backstab for 140 damage. You will suffer for a long time as a Kensai=>Thief until UAI because you won't be able to wear armor and you will delay your HLAs (thus UAI) until 4,350,000 XP which is already well into ToB territory.
And all of this is considering a vanilla setup ... With an xp cap remover, multiclass Grand Mastery (as per PnP rules), multiclass kits (as per PnP rules), tripleclass HLAs and so forth, the F/M/T can be even stronger.
Of course this thread is totally not about powergaming and focuses more on playstyle and favor, but saying that the F/M/T is worse than the F/T because he loses 1 to 3 THAC0 for the whole Mage class is clearly false in my opinion
Gotural, if you do not remove the XP cap and you do not alter the game to allow Grand Mastery how do you assign your proficiency points? As someone who prefers the FMT I would assume you have beaten the game many times and have formed a preference for certain weapon load outs. Do you prefer the weapons you use for power gaming purposes or are they just personal favorites due to RP reasons?
I see a total of 12 pips that can be assigned. You start BG1 with 4 and you gain 2 over the course of the game. In BG2 you gain 2 more and in TOB you gain another 4. I am simply curious what your favorite equipment is and why.
I tried Carsomyr with fire tooth cross bow and backstab with both Katana and staff on my first run. I have also tried dual wielding a variety of weapons. I have only played the game 2 times as a FMT and I am trying to find the best items to fully utilize protection, damage and general utility of the 3 classes. Do you use the robe of vecna over the elven chain mail in TOB? What is your favorite backstab weapon?
The last time I played, I used ++Katana and ++crossbow in BG1 and added ++ in dual wielding style over the course of the game. In Bg2 I continued to use Katana's and I added a speed weapon in the off hand. I used the 2 pips from Bg2 to switch to war hammers for Crom Fayer. In TOB I added a third pip to dual wielding style and added two pips to ninjato. In the end I had Crom Fayer in my main hand and scarlet ninjato in the off hand. I also had spectral brand in my secondary main hand slot for backstabbing. I stopped using the crossbow after BG1 and I had one pip left at the end of TOB that I didn't really have anything to do with.
My main intention with this setup was to maximize damage by using Katana's 1D10 base damage while allowing me to dual wield and make use of backstab. I did replace the Katana with Crom Fayer eventually due to the overall damage output and special abilities of the weapon. I thought maybe I could go with scimitars instead of Katana in BG1 but I don't kill the dark elf and steal his blades in BG1 usually. In the end I think I would want Katana for the base damage and the eventual move to SOA. Dakkon's blade is purchasable at the start of SOA and of Course Celestial Fury is a powerhouse in SOA. I use scimitars in my off hand but they are used for speed purposes so I don't really care if I am proficient in them because they will not hit until I have UAI and Montilo's clasp at higher warrior levels in TOB. This is why I didn't add pips to scimitars until TOB. This was my thinking. I thought about maybe throwing daggers instead of crossbow during Bg1. This would allow the use of the poison dagger for backstab and it would work as a long range weapon. I could possible make a little use of throwing daggers in SOA as well. What do you think?
Also, if you don't use long bows or long swords is there a reason to go with an elf instead of a half-elf throughout the FMT character progression?
At the start of the game I always pick a ranged weapon, either Daggers or Longbows. Daggers have very good damage thanks to the Strenght bonus and can also be used as a melee weapon like the Dagger+1 in Candlekeep, the Dagger of Venom which is very powerful or the very handy Silver Dagger .
Longbows on the other hand allow you to use more effectively Arrows of Ice, Piercing, Acid, and so forth.
Note that you don't really need to be proficient in bows to use Arrows of Dispelling and Arrows of Detonation correctly.
So most of the time I pick Daggers ** and a melee weapon **, but I also like to start with Daggers ** and TWS ** because 2.5 APR at level 1 will often be better than 1.5 APR even if the base damage is 1d4 versus 1d8 thanks to the Strenght bonus.
Then I'll pick Scimitars ** at level 3 and 6 (or 1 if I don't chose TWS **) because I always kill Drizzt for his weapons. But even if you don't kill the Drow, Scimitars stay very strong for a F/M/T throughout the saga because you will be able to use Scarlet Ninja-To which is available from a merchant in Athkatla, and Usuno's Blade in the first level of Watcher's Keep. While the latter weapon isn't that strong, it's still a +4 weapon available right from the start of the game.
Later on you can use Spectral Brand which is nice because the cold damage bypasses Mirror Image / Stoneskin for spell disruption.
Assuming I have Daggers ** TWS ** and Scimitars ** at the start of BG2, I will usually put my last points in Long Swords, Two Handed Swords, Bastards Swords, War Hammers, Short Swords or Katanas depending if I'm soloing or not and my setup.
With the Tactics Mod, you can use an incredibly strong Katana+4. With the Rogue Rebalancing Mod, the Short Sword of Backstabbing gives +1 multiplier for backstabs, +2 THAC0 and can be upgraded to a +5 version.
If I'm playing solo vanilla, I would chose War Hammer for Crom Faeyr to have a blunt weapon available and because raising Str to 25 can be hard for a F/M/T (and it will give a small boost to your backstabs if you use it in your offhand), Two Handed Swords for Carsomyr and Long Swords for the Answerer+4 to lower the enemies' MR to be able to cast Power Words : Stun, Silence and Blind.
I don't like to focus too much on backstabs like using the Staff of the Ram with Staffs ** and Two Handed Style * because I think you don't really need it to make some very strong backstabs so I backstab with whatever weapon I have in my main hand.
I would always use the Robe of Vecna if I have the choice, even if I have another spellcaster in the party like Edwin or Aerie, because you are limited to one spell per round so it doesn't really benefits them except when using Improved Alacrity while all kind of Fighter/Mage can attack more times per round if they spend less time casting.
Finally for the race choice I prefer Half-Elf if soloing, as 18 Con will give you some precious HP especially in no-reload SCS while 19 Dex only give you 1 ranged THAC0 and a few skill points but you'll have plenty if you solo the game.
Thanks, I appreciate you taking the time to type out the info. My plan is to take your advice and give daggers a try on my next run of the game. I have heard that there is a particularly nasty throwing dagger in BG2 so that will be interesting to try.
I tried using the upgraded Aslyferund elven chain +5 armor on my last run and I am not sure I agree with you on the robe of vecna. It's just that I have two level 30 mages in my group that could use it and my FMT is the only one that would really benefit from the elven chain. I usually do most of my casting before battle and the few times I may need to cast something in battle it is usually an instant spell like improved haste. I like that the elven chain sets your armor class to 0 because you no longer need spirit armor and it allows you to hit the game engine limitation on armor class (-24) with the use of a single HLA. No spells need to be cast and the armor makes you immune to any weapons that are not magical which is not a huge help but kind of cool. You can still use all of your magic casting and theif abilities while wearing it so it's a win in my book. It seems to me that the most benefit I get from the robe of vecna is when I need an enemy defense brought down in a hurry and my FMT is usually in the middle of melee so it just seems to work out better for me to have a mage from the back row do a quick surgical precision cast with perfect timing when I really need it.
I do really like the spectral brand sword. I think I would dual wield it with scarlet ninjato if I did not have Crom fayer around. It looks like it does 7 to 19 per a hit which is a little better than Carsomyr and it can be dual wielded and backstabbed with. I keep it around as my main backstab weapon. I like that it has the called shot ability that improves your thaco by 10 points for 3 rounds. That insures that your backstab is a success.
A FMT is limited to being an elf which means the to hit and damage strength bonuses for the half orc cannot be attained but with Crom Fayer you bypass the strength problem altogether. Using a speed weapon allows you to overcome the lack of a + 1 attack from grand mastery and even allows you to hit more than a warrior that is dual wielding two grand mastered weapons. The down side is that you don't get the damage bonus of grand mastery but the extra attack evens things out so that you are about equal. The problem I see with the FMT is thaco...
If you are using a 6 person party you will never hit the 8 million XP cap without grinding and even if you did manage to hit the XP cap the FMT cannot go over level 18 fighter so he ends up with a base thaco of 3 vs 0 for a fighter or F/T. Without grandmastery he looses out on another 2 thaco and 3 damage to that of a warrior and unless he uses crom fayer he will lose more thaco and damage because of his limited strength as an elf. This causes the FMT to trail 5 or 6 points in thaco which can make the difference between beating a dragon to death and only hitting it every once in a great while. The slower character progression does have an effect on the FMT unless you are solo or you have removed the XP cap/grinded to death and given yourself grandmastery. I have tried really hard to overcome this but I just don't see anyway around it. Going up against your first dragon when you are a level 10 warrior is hard but doing it at the same point as a FMT makes you two levels lower and lacking the grandmaster bonus and without crom fayer your strength is lower. It becomes much harder to hit and the fight is longer and more drawn out unless you hit the dragon with feeble mind and pump a bunch of potions or some other quick fix. Once you hit TOB the FMT seems to have no real thaco related problems that I could see but the rakasha and dragons in SOA were pretty tough while using a full party.
Despite that, I am starting to really like the FMT. I enjoy mixing the abilities of all 3 classes at once and I play nothing but SCS maxed out on insane these days where the added magical protections of the FMT make a night and day difference in the end. I still think the F/T is better suited for the vanilla game though. My main reasoning is that you don't need mirror image, stoneskin, improved invisibility or spell immunity. You can just walk into any fight and beat the enemy down with a higher thaco and damage to end the fight quicker with no effort. you may take a few hits every now and again but in the end you have more hitpoints for that reason. Of course this is just my personal opinion. I don't wish to get into a big argument about it but I do totally see where you are coming from regarding the FMT. The FMT is very powerful and fun to play and better suited for SCS than any other class that I have played. F/M would be the only contender I think.
Anyway, thanks again for your insights, some of your tips from the past have really helped me harness the power of the FMT and improved my understanding of the game engine as a whole.
1) An F/M/T gets only 10 proficiency points by XP cap, not 12, so you've got to be even more careful about planning your proficiencies carefully. My own preference for this (partly for economy of proficiencies) is a two-handing build, but if you're really intent upon dual-wielding while playing with a party, then make sure that you allocate dual-wielding points in BG1, because otherwise progression in BG2 is so slow that you'll have finished most of the game before you're competent in it.
2) Note that the Spectral Brand is a scimitar, not a sword. (You probably know that, but you said "sword", so I mention it because better safe than sorry.) Yes, it's a fine weapon, although it's an exaggeration to say its damage is "better than Carsomyr". However, you'll probably have Crom Faeyr by the time you get the Spectral Brand (and certainly before you get the Improved Spectral Brand), so you might not use the Spectral Brand as much as you're expecting.
3) If you play a completionist game, then you can very nearly reach the XP cap with a full party, it takes only a little grinding to finish it ... and if you go through SoD as well, possibly no grinding.
4) If you have higher-level casters in the party, then yes, you might well be better off giving them the Robe of Vecna and wearing Elven Chain on your protagonist.
Ah! your right about the proficiency points, I must have not remembered my last run correctly. That does make things more tight and hard to plot out. Thanks!
If I remember correctly I just passed the 7 million mark last time and I did pretty much everything possible. With SOD that will probably put me at about 7.6 million or so. Not to bad but it will require some grinding to max out a party of 6.
My first run of the game as a FMT I used two handed weapon style. I think I had two pips in cross bow and two pips in two handed weapons with 1 pip in two handed fighting style and 1 pip in Katana.
In BG2 I think I added a second pip to katana and two handed fighting style and then in TOB I added two pips into staff.
This next run I am not really sure what I am going to do but I want to dual wield so maybe I will focus on scimitar, dagger, and two weapon style during BG1 and then add two pips to war hammers in BG2. In TOB I could add a third pip to two weapons style and have an extra pip at the very end that I don't really care about. I could give up daggers in BG1 and focus on Katana so that I am good to go in BG2 with dakkon's blade and celestial fury but then I would be left with no long range attack in BG1 which is pretty tough to swallow.
EDIT: After looking at my save it looks like I reassigned my pips in BG2 last time. I took the two pips that I had in crossbow during bg1 and added them into two weapon fighting style and Katana which is what caused me to think I had 12 pips instead of 10. So I guess I kind of had some continuity problems between Bg1 and 2 last time and didn't take notice.
If you have the upgraded Aslyferun armor and you're the only one in the party that can use it then I would use it and give the Robe of Vecna to Edwin for example. The immunity to normal weapons is better than people think, some enemies use mundane weapons until the end of the game including the Elemental Princes you fight in the Throne of Bhaal and if you cast PfMW, you become immune to every weapons like a Lich which is awesome.
But if you don't use the Robe of Vecna, I would advise against using a speed weapon because you will always spend some time casting or using an item every rounds and you won't have the time to use all your APRs; 7 or 8 with the gauntlets will be plenty enough.
The THAC0 issue can be felt against some early Dragons like Firkraag in chapter 2 but I make sure to always cast spells like Chant, Bless, Str potions and Arrows of Piercing to close the gap.
Comments
@DullSkullTheSecond
Have we not met yet?
The just slightly longer answer: Yes, you're a mage so you have alot of buffs, though level up to ie stoneskins slower due to triple-class ofc, but since you can do much yourself you can run with a smaller party to offset this. You're a fighter so you can equip armor (though most likely won't do it very often for obvious reasons, 'cept maybe elven chain but it affects stealth). You don't need that much HP when you have things like stoneskin. In the very long run you'll get UAI, though you don't really need it since you can equip so much anyways, but it opens up certain possibilities for headgear etc.
F/M/T's are amazing, but to me they don't feel like a true class (I have difficulty RP'ing them, but that doesn't mean others can't ofc) and are somewhat powergamey.
Second best, in my book, is F/T or F/M. Then Blade. Then Assassin.
Simply because my main character will be the strongest level wise, so I use him to tank with AC -7 and high damage while my spellcasters back me up. Pretty simple technique but highly effective. A druid and a cleric as healers/ damage/debuff, an evoker for basically everything, a thief dealing ranged and another hard hitter. Can't go wrong.
A stalker can't really hold the front line
A stalker can't really hold the front line
There are a couple of fairly nice leather armors out there. In addition, I believe you can wear ankheg plate mail, which while fashioned in the shape of plate mail, is not composed of metal. At least, my Archer is wearing some, and I will assume the same rules would work for a Stalker.
There are a couple of fairly nice leather armors out there. In addition, I believe you can wear ankheg plate mail, which while fashioned in the shape of plate mail, is not composed of metal. At least, my Archer is wearing some, and I will assume the same rules would work for a Stalker.
Shadow Dragon Scale is the one to go for. You can't sneak in Ankhegs...
As someone else mentioned earlier, by early TOB it almost doesn't matter what armor you wear, the tougher critters can hit you regardless.
Spells like Shadow Door, Mislead(if you really enjoy trivializing your game with exploitative tactics like these), etc can all be cast from a Scroll by your Rogue once you've gotten UAI.
The same goes of course for protective Spells like Stoneskin, PfMW, and the likes.
The Mage part of an F/M/T isn't necessary, unless you are playing solo. If you do play with a full party of 6, it even is detrimental to your character, as you are needlessly losing XP on the Mage part, which would be better used to bolster the F/T qualities. In addition, if you favor backstabs so much, going L13Kensai->Thief rules supreme anyway.
Plus it means you will be unable to pick locks, detect traps and so forth for a huge part of the game.
Potions of Invisibility are a consumable.
Scrolls are rare, and you won't be able to use them until you have UIA as a F/T which translates into at least 70% of the whole saga.
The Mage part of the F/M/T isn't necessary, but it is a big plus and you don't lose anything in exchange.
Until 500,000 XP you will lose one level of Fighter and Thief to have acces to the Mage class; A F/M/T 8/9/10 is ten time stronger than a level 9/11 F/T.
For all BG1 you will trade 1 THAC0 and 25 skill points for the Mage class, I think this speaks for itself.
At 3,000,000 XP, the F/T (14/16) will have 2 more THAC0, 1/2 APR and 50 more skill points than the F/M/T (12/12/14) while the latter can cast spells up to level 6 which is totally better, he can cast Stoneskin / Mirror Image / Spell Immunity : Abjuration + Divination + Mislead every fights.
And from this point, the F/T doesn't progress much anymore, you already have too much skill points, you already maxed APR at level 13 Fighter and backstab at level 13 Thief while the F/M/T will continue to progress, he will get this 1/2 APR he was lacking earlier, and he will continue to advance in the Mage class.
Both multiclasses will get the same HLAs at 3,000,000 XP
So for the whole game a F/M/T will trade 1 or 2 THAC0 and 25 to 50 skill points (but he won't need to invest them in stealth) for the Mage class, it is definitely better.
Finally the Kensai 13 => Thief is a bad build overall.
During 60% of the saga (BG1 + half of BG2) you are stuck as a singleclass Kensai which is horrible, then you are a low level Thief which is horrible too, finally you are a F/T with 7 more damage which is kinda useless as you are already backstabing for 100+ damage per hit as a F/M/T and nothing will survive that anyway so there is no point to backstab for 140 damage. You will suffer for a long time as a Kensai=>Thief until UAI because you won't be able to wear armor and you will delay your HLAs (thus UAI) until 4,350,000 XP which is already well into ToB territory.
And all of this is considering a vanilla setup ... With an xp cap remover, multiclass Grand Mastery (as per PnP rules), multiclass kits (as per PnP rules), tripleclass HLAs and so forth, the F/M/T can be even stronger.
Of course this thread is totally not about powergaming and focuses more on playstyle and favor, but saying that the F/M/T is worse than the F/T because he loses 1 to 3 THAC0 for the whole Mage class is clearly false in my opinion
I see a total of 12 pips that can be assigned. You start BG1 with 4 and you gain 2 over the course of the game. In BG2 you gain 2 more and in TOB you gain another 4. I am simply curious what your favorite equipment is and why.
I tried Carsomyr with fire tooth cross bow and backstab with both Katana and staff on my first run. I have also tried dual wielding a variety of weapons. I have only played the game 2 times as a FMT and I am trying to find the best items to fully utilize protection, damage and general utility of the 3 classes. Do you use the robe of vecna over the elven chain mail in TOB? What is your favorite backstab weapon?
The last time I played, I used ++Katana and ++crossbow in BG1 and added ++ in dual wielding style over the course of the game. In Bg2 I continued to use Katana's and I added a speed weapon in the off hand. I used the 2 pips from Bg2 to switch to war hammers for Crom Fayer. In TOB I added a third pip to dual wielding style and added two pips to ninjato. In the end I had Crom Fayer in my main hand and scarlet ninjato in the off hand. I also had spectral brand in my secondary main hand slot for backstabbing. I stopped using the crossbow after BG1 and I had one pip left at the end of TOB that I didn't really have anything to do with.
My main intention with this setup was to maximize damage by using Katana's 1D10 base damage while allowing me to dual wield and make use of backstab. I did replace the Katana with Crom Fayer eventually due to the overall damage output and special abilities of the weapon. I thought maybe I could go with scimitars instead of Katana in BG1 but I don't kill the dark elf and steal his blades in BG1 usually. In the end I think I would want Katana for the base damage and the eventual move to SOA. Dakkon's blade is purchasable at the start of SOA and of Course Celestial Fury is a powerhouse in SOA. I use scimitars in my off hand but they are used for speed purposes so I don't really care if I am proficient in them because they will not hit until I have UAI and Montilo's clasp at higher warrior levels in TOB. This is why I didn't add pips to scimitars until TOB. This was my thinking. I thought about maybe throwing daggers instead of crossbow during Bg1. This would allow the use of the poison dagger for backstab and it would work as a long range weapon. I could possible make a little use of throwing daggers in SOA as well. What do you think?
Also, if you don't use long bows or long swords is there a reason to go with an elf instead of a half-elf throughout the FMT character progression?
At the start of the game I always pick a ranged weapon, either Daggers or Longbows.
Daggers have very good damage thanks to the Strenght bonus and can also be used as a melee weapon like the Dagger+1 in Candlekeep, the Dagger of Venom which is very powerful or the very handy Silver Dagger .
Longbows on the other hand allow you to use more effectively Arrows of Ice, Piercing, Acid, and so forth.
Note that you don't really need to be proficient in bows to use Arrows of Dispelling and Arrows of Detonation correctly.
So most of the time I pick Daggers ** and a melee weapon **, but I also like to start with Daggers ** and TWS ** because 2.5 APR at level 1 will often be better than 1.5 APR even if the base damage is 1d4 versus 1d8 thanks to the Strenght bonus.
Then I'll pick Scimitars ** at level 3 and 6 (or 1 if I don't chose TWS **) because I always kill Drizzt for his weapons.
But even if you don't kill the Drow, Scimitars stay very strong for a F/M/T throughout the saga because you will be able to use Scarlet Ninja-To which is available from a merchant in Athkatla, and Usuno's Blade in the first level of Watcher's Keep.
While the latter weapon isn't that strong, it's still a +4 weapon available right from the start of the game.
Later on you can use Spectral Brand which is nice because the cold damage bypasses Mirror Image / Stoneskin for spell disruption.
Assuming I have Daggers ** TWS ** and Scimitars ** at the start of BG2, I will usually put my last points in Long Swords, Two Handed Swords, Bastards Swords, War Hammers, Short Swords or Katanas depending if I'm soloing or not and my setup.
With the Tactics Mod, you can use an incredibly strong Katana+4.
With the Rogue Rebalancing Mod, the Short Sword of Backstabbing gives +1 multiplier for backstabs, +2 THAC0 and can be upgraded to a +5 version.
If I'm playing solo vanilla, I would chose War Hammer for Crom Faeyr to have a blunt weapon available and because raising Str to 25 can be hard for a F/M/T (and it will give a small boost to your backstabs if you use it in your offhand), Two Handed Swords for Carsomyr and Long Swords for the Answerer+4 to lower the enemies' MR to be able to cast Power Words : Stun, Silence and Blind.
I don't like to focus too much on backstabs like using the Staff of the Ram with Staffs ** and Two Handed Style * because I think you don't really need it to make some very strong backstabs so I backstab with whatever weapon I have in my main hand.
I would always use the Robe of Vecna if I have the choice, even if I have another spellcaster in the party like Edwin or Aerie, because you are limited to one spell per round so it doesn't really benefits them except when using Improved Alacrity while all kind of Fighter/Mage can attack more times per round if they spend less time casting.
Finally for the race choice I prefer Half-Elf if soloing, as 18 Con will give you some precious HP especially in no-reload SCS while 19 Dex only give you 1 ranged THAC0 and a few skill points but you'll have plenty if you solo the game.
I tried using the upgraded Aslyferund elven chain +5 armor on my last run and I am not sure I agree with you on the robe of vecna. It's just that I have two level 30 mages in my group that could use it and my FMT is the only one that would really benefit from the elven chain. I usually do most of my casting before battle and the few times I may need to cast something in battle it is usually an instant spell like improved haste. I like that the elven chain sets your armor class to 0 because you no longer need spirit armor and it allows you to hit the game engine limitation on armor class (-24) with the use of a single HLA. No spells need to be cast and the armor makes you immune to any weapons that are not magical which is not a huge help but kind of cool. You can still use all of your magic casting and theif abilities while wearing it so it's a win in my book. It seems to me that the most benefit I get from the robe of vecna is when I need an enemy defense brought down in a hurry and my FMT is usually in the middle of melee so it just seems to work out better for me to have a mage from the back row do a quick surgical precision cast with perfect timing when I really need it.
I do really like the spectral brand sword. I think I would dual wield it with scarlet ninjato if I did not have Crom fayer around. It looks like it does 7 to 19 per a hit which is a little better than Carsomyr and it can be dual wielded and backstabbed with. I keep it around as my main backstab weapon. I like that it has the called shot ability that improves your thaco by 10 points for 3 rounds. That insures that your backstab is a success.
A FMT is limited to being an elf which means the to hit and damage strength bonuses for the half orc cannot be attained but with Crom Fayer you bypass the strength problem altogether. Using a speed weapon allows you to overcome the lack of a + 1 attack from grand mastery and even allows you to hit more than a warrior that is dual wielding two grand mastered weapons. The down side is that you don't get the damage bonus of grand mastery but the extra attack evens things out so that you are about equal. The problem I see with the FMT is thaco...
If you are using a 6 person party you will never hit the 8 million XP cap without grinding and even if you did manage to hit the XP cap the FMT cannot go over level 18 fighter so he ends up with a base thaco of 3 vs 0 for a fighter or F/T. Without grandmastery he looses out on another 2 thaco and 3 damage to that of a warrior and unless he uses crom fayer he will lose more thaco and damage because of his limited strength as an elf. This causes the FMT to trail 5 or 6 points in thaco which can make the difference between beating a dragon to death and only hitting it every once in a great while. The slower character progression does have an effect on the FMT unless you are solo or you have removed the XP cap/grinded to death and given yourself grandmastery. I have tried really hard to overcome this but I just don't see anyway around it. Going up against your first dragon when you are a level 10 warrior is hard but doing it at the same point as a FMT makes you two levels lower and lacking the grandmaster bonus and without crom fayer your strength is lower. It becomes much harder to hit and the fight is longer and more drawn out unless you hit the dragon with feeble mind and pump a bunch of potions or some other quick fix. Once you hit TOB the FMT seems to have no real thaco related problems that I could see but the rakasha and dragons in SOA were pretty tough while using a full party.
Despite that, I am starting to really like the FMT. I enjoy mixing the abilities of all 3 classes at once and I play nothing but SCS maxed out on insane these days where the added magical protections of the FMT make a night and day difference in the end. I still think the F/T is better suited for the vanilla game though. My main reasoning is that you don't need mirror image, stoneskin, improved invisibility or spell immunity. You can just walk into any fight and beat the enemy down with a higher thaco and damage to end the fight quicker with no effort. you may take a few hits every now and again but in the end you have more hitpoints for that reason. Of course this is just my personal opinion. I don't wish to get into a big argument about it but I do totally see where you are coming from regarding the FMT. The FMT is very powerful and fun to play and better suited for SCS than any other class that I have played. F/M would be the only contender I think.
Anyway, thanks again for your insights, some of your tips from the past have really helped me harness the power of the FMT and improved my understanding of the game engine as a whole.
1) An F/M/T gets only 10 proficiency points by XP cap, not 12, so you've got to be even more careful about planning your proficiencies carefully. My own preference for this (partly for economy of proficiencies) is a two-handing build, but if you're really intent upon dual-wielding while playing with a party, then make sure that you allocate dual-wielding points in BG1, because otherwise progression in BG2 is so slow that you'll have finished most of the game before you're competent in it.
2) Note that the Spectral Brand is a scimitar, not a sword. (You probably know that, but you said "sword", so I mention it because better safe than sorry.) Yes, it's a fine weapon, although it's an exaggeration to say its damage is "better than Carsomyr". However, you'll probably have Crom Faeyr by the time you get the Spectral Brand (and certainly before you get the Improved Spectral Brand), so you might not use the Spectral Brand as much as you're expecting.
3) If you play a completionist game, then you can very nearly reach the XP cap with a full party, it takes only a little grinding to finish it ... and if you go through SoD as well, possibly no grinding.
4) If you have higher-level casters in the party, then yes, you might well be better off giving them the Robe of Vecna and wearing Elven Chain on your protagonist.
If I remember correctly I just passed the 7 million mark last time and I did pretty much everything possible. With SOD that will probably put me at about 7.6 million or so. Not to bad but it will require some grinding to max out a party of 6.
My first run of the game as a FMT I used two handed weapon style. I think I had two pips in cross bow and two pips in two handed weapons with 1 pip in two handed fighting style and 1 pip in Katana.
In BG2 I think I added a second pip to katana and two handed fighting style and then in TOB I added two pips into staff.
This next run I am not really sure what I am going to do but I want to dual wield so maybe I will focus on scimitar, dagger, and two weapon style during BG1 and then add two pips to war hammers in BG2. In TOB I could add a third pip to two weapons style and have an extra pip at the very end that I don't really care about. I could give up daggers in BG1 and focus on Katana so that I am good to go in BG2 with dakkon's blade and celestial fury but then I would be left with no long range attack in BG1 which is pretty tough to swallow.
EDIT:
After looking at my save it looks like I reassigned my pips in BG2 last time. I took the two pips that I had in crossbow during bg1 and added them into two weapon fighting style and Katana which is what caused me to think I had 12 pips instead of 10. So I guess I kind of had some continuity problems between Bg1 and 2 last time and didn't take notice.
But if you don't use the Robe of Vecna, I would advise against using a speed weapon because you will always spend some time casting or using an item every rounds and you won't have the time to use all your APRs; 7 or 8 with the gauntlets will be plenty enough.
The THAC0 issue can be felt against some early Dragons like Firkraag in chapter 2 but I make sure to always cast spells like Chant, Bless, Str potions and Arrows of Piercing to close the gap.