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Beamdog: Solutions to Crisis

135

Comments

  • QbertQbert Member Posts: 193
    Good for you tilly trying to do something constructive instead of just spouting extremist rhetoric like most on both sides of this issue are doing.

    prem0nitionatakdog
  • bluntfeatherbluntfeather Member Posts: 61



    The staggering irony of it all is that is exactly what they claim they are trying to do: stop the vocal minorities having undue influence over things all the while being an extreme and vocal minority who are try.... trying to.... Oh. Oh dear. There goes a few more braincells from trying to comprehend such staggering hypocrisy.

    The solution is to pay attention to neither one. However, they did.
    Ratcliff said:

    Beamdog picked a side in the culture war instead of staying out of it.

    This is the consequence of that.

    Now Baldur's Gate is going to suffer.

    Shame on both sides, and shame on Beamdog for being on a side.

    So that's just where it is. Unless Beamdog does something to change the current, steady as she goes...

    Ratcliff
  • Son_of_ImoenSon_of_Imoen Member Posts: 1,761
    edited April 2016
    splatypus said:

    I'd be willing to work with someone who was interested in modding in a new trans character if anyone was up for it.

    That was what I was thinking: a fleshed out trans character could be made my a mod if Beamdog didn't. I'd play it!

    *edit: and despite agreeing with @typo_tilly's solution initially, I do feel there's a danger of it being seen like 'Beamdog caving in', with the effect of 'give 'em a finger and they take your whole hand' like a Dutch saying goes.

  • oldlamehandoldlamehand Member Posts: 39
    ineth said:


    When you add depth to a previously flat character (which is great!), don't go selling it as "replacing the sexist/problematic characters of the original game, deal with it!" in interviews (which is just a terrible PR move, especially if the characters are really still the same just with more depth, and if you'd just say that, no-one would take issue with it).
    The fact that main writer of SoD sais original BG was too sexist insults me much more than presence of trans character.
    This statement is the main reason I will not buy SoD. I will not buy game writeen by somebody who lacks respect to original Baldur's Gate series.
    I think SoD will be the last battle of social justice warior Amber Scott, at least on the RPG battlefield.
    Many Baldur's Gate fans will never forgive her.

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    The fact that main writer of SoD sais original BG was too sexist insults me much more than presence of trans character.
    This statement is the main reason I will not buy SoD. I will not buy game writeen by somebody who lacks respect to original Baldur's Gate series.

    Better throw away all your D&D products, then, because according to Wizards of the Coast, those crappy BG novels with Abdel Adrian are canon. Guess that means they lack respect for their own product too, huh?

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136

    The fact that main writer of SoD sais original BG was too sexist insults me

    How? Why? In what possible way does this insult you?

    We're seeing this over and over, and it's just such a deeply bizarre reaction to someone saying that sexism was present in an old game that you didn't create. Her comment has literally nothing to do with you.

    subtledoctorKilivitzcraymond727FinnTheHuman
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    1. I really like Baldur's Gate
    2. A person said Baldur's Gate was not perfect
    3. I cannot reconcile these two notions
    4. The person is wrong and being mean

    craymond727
  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    I dont like stuff being shoehorned in but its completely immoral to start manipulating user review systems to attack the developers. This kind of thing is crazy. On the otherhand I dont like censorship as a result of PCness. Both sides need to live and let live. SJWs should have their lgbt stuff and dude bros get their chun li boob jiggle and ill play games featuring both.

    Ardul
  • bluntfeatherbluntfeather Member Posts: 61
    joluv said:

    The fact that main writer of SoD sais original BG was too sexist insults me

    How? Why? In what possible way does this insult you?

    We're seeing this over and over, and it's just such a deeply bizarre reaction to someone saying that sexism was present in an old game that you didn't create. Her comment has literally nothing to do with you.
    It isn't bizarre at all. Folks are tired of old works being put under a magnifying glass to look for anything that could be considered x/y/z offensive. That doesn't somehow lead to good writing. The notion that a fiction can be sexist is absurd.

    RedKnightoldlamehand
  • RedKnightRedKnight Member Posts: 71

    The rage will spiral out even more if you don't act. As a longstanding fan and a trans person, please consider tweaking your current content.

    1. Replace Minsc's 'ethics in heroic adventuring' line with something else that fits the mood (e.g., 'butt kicking for goodness'). Many GamerGaters genuinely want better representation of minorities in games.

    2. Temporarily remove Mizhena's 2 lines from the game: the 1 about her backstory and the 1 about how she made her name. Put good thought and consultation into how to re-implement them. Perhaps only have those as options after CHARNAME has gained her trust and friendship. Maybe do something with a party that imports with the gender change belt.

    3. Make an announcement (and twitter posts) to say
    - You're sorry about asking people to post reviews to counter 1 star reviews. It was a mistake and you were frustrated at what you perceived as slights against the inclusion of a transgender cleric and a GamerGate poke.
    - Minsc's line poking fun at GamerGate has been removed and it was in bad taste.
    - You're talking to the fanbase and trans community about how to re-introduce Mizhena's backstory.

    4. Set an interview with a GamerGate-supporting news site. Come part-way in how best to represent minorities in games.

    This will be difficult to do, requiring high willpower and humility. But it can only get worse if you don't admit some fault and make some changes.

    I wish you "intelligence" on your journeys. I would wish you "luck," but it runs out much quicker than you would think. Good day. ~Thalantyr

    I am pro gamergate, but I would not censor anything. I wont hate the game because of 1 line. If we GGers start promoting censoring of content, we would be no better than SJWs, who do this sort of shit on daily basis. Honestly, I just want the game to be good. How to fix this fiasco... I have no idea.

    Zaphas86Ardul
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136

    The notion that a fiction can be sexist is absurd.

    The notion that a fiction can be sexist is absurd.

    The notion that a fiction can be sexist is absurd.

    subtledoctorcraymond727
  • oldlamehandoldlamehand Member Posts: 39
    edited April 2016

    1. I really like Baldur's Gate
    2. A person said Baldur's Gate was not perfect
    3. I cannot reconcile these two notions
    4. The person is wrong and being mean

    I have no problem with people who say Baldur's Gate was not perfect. I have no problem with people who say Baldur's Gate was terrible.

    I only have problem with MAIN WRITER of SoD criticizing Baldur's Gate for sexism and trying to show her "progressive" aproach.

    Ratcliff
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    Who said it was terrible? No one said it was terrible! I feel very safe saying that Amber Scott does not think Baldur's Gate is terrible. She's an adult who can presumably disapprove of a small element of a game while still appreciating the game as a whole.

    craymond727
  • RedKnightRedKnight Member Posts: 71
    edited April 2016

    1. I really like Baldur's Gate
    2. A person said Baldur's Gate was not perfect
    3. I cannot reconcile these two notions
    4. The person is wrong and being mean

    I have no problem with people saying Baldur's Gate was not perfect. I have no problem with people saying Baldur's Gate was terrible.

    I only have problem with MAIN WRITER of SoD criticizing Baldur's Gate for sexism and trying to show her "progressive" aproach.
    My main worry was that it sounded like she changed the original content in order to show off her "proggressive" approach. I hear from some people who played the game that its not that terrible. Still makes you wonder what the hell was happening in her mind when she was giving that interview. Beamdog must know that SJWs are not liked in gaming circles. Or maybe they just tried to kiss ass to Kotaku so they would get positive review. We all know how "progressive" Kotaku is.

    Zaphas86
  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    I find it interesting that you continue to see Amber Scott as the only person responsible for what you call the "progressive approach". In case you missed it the first hundred times: she's part of a team. Strange that you don't seem to have anything to say to the other lead writer for the game.

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    RedKnight said:

    My main worry was that it sounded like she changed the original content in order to show off her "proggressive" approach. I hear from some people who played the game that its not that terrible. Still makes you wonder what the hell was happening in her mind when she was giving that interview. Beamdog must know that SJWs are not liked in gaming circles. Or maybe they just tried to kiss ass to Kotaku so they would get positive review. We all know how "progressive" Kotaku is.

    Man, you have extremely recently said that you believe in art for art's sake and don't care about the intent behind art and that your problem with "SJW shoehorning" or whatever is that it supposedly always ends up terrible. Apparently it didn't end up all that terrible here, so can we worry about it less?

    As someone who agrees with the things Amber Scott said in her interview, I suspect that there was no secret motive; she probably actually believes the things she said and was being honest instead of pandering to a faction of gamers that she disagrees with. Even if you are one of those gamers, isn't that candor a little bit admirable?

    Why not just accept that you have political disagreements with one of the writers and that those disagreements didn't affect the final product all that much?

  • Incantus89Incantus89 Member Posts: 28
    I will keep posting it as many times as needed, I'm sure some people just genuinly hate that a trans NPC was put in the game.

    Me? I dislike the way she is portrayed, it is unrealistic and there isnt enough development for it. The suggestion to flesh her out more and hell to include the girld of gender change if it has been kept, that cursed belt would be like a gift from the heavens for any real life trans person.

    There is also the fact, that belt exists, that means that magic to change ones gender exists in the realms.... I find it hard that there would be many trans people around due to this, possibly someone who couldnt afford the cost such a spell would incur, but yeah.... Magic to change ones gender completely apparently exists in the realms, hence the solution to pretty much any trans persons woes is availble and a possibility.

    See how many nuances could be painted here? The shallowness of the character is what disturbs me, not who she is. I mean hell I loved Dorns bisexuality, and I mean LOVED, Dorn is such an amazing character to me and once he started hitting on my half elven bard I had to go there :P

    Zaphas86
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136

    I will keep posting it as many times as needed

    You have exceeded that number.

    FinnTheHuman
  • bluntfeatherbluntfeather Member Posts: 61
    joluv said:

    The notion that a fiction can be sexist is absurd.

    The notion that a fiction can be sexist is absurd.

    The notion that a fiction can be sexist is absurd.

    Haha ok, tell me how it can.

  • oldlamehandoldlamehand Member Posts: 39
    edited April 2016
    joluv said:

    Who said it was terrible? No one said it was terrible! I feel very safe saying that Amber Scott does not think Baldur's Gate is terrible. She's an adult who can presumably disapprove of a small element of a game while still appreciating the game as a whole.

    I meant people in general. Lot of people, especially today's teenagers, dislike old school games like Baldur's Gate. And they have a right to dislike it, if they wish.

    Amber Scott probably doesn't think original Baldur's gate was terrible, but sheis following the "progressive" approach, where writing about straight white male is considered to be almost sexist crime or at least backward.

  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,162
    shawne said:

    I find it interesting that you continue to see Amber Scott as the only person responsible for what you call the "progressive approach". In case you missed it the first hundred times: she's part of a team. Strange that you don't seem to have anything to say to the other lead writer for the game.

    She's the one that commented on it. How is it "interesting" that she is the one being talked about? There is a pretty obvious reason.

    Zaphas86
  • DorcusDorcus Member Posts: 241
    somebody make a bingo card that's like: bad writing, "Amber Scott", Kotaku, I have no problem with transexual people but, SJW shoehorning, etc, etc, and the center square is the Girdle of M/F

  • gesellegeselle Member Posts: 325
    RedKnight said:


    I am pro gamergate, but I would not censor anything. I wont hate the game because of 1 line. If we GGers start promoting censoring of content, we would be no better than SJWs, who do this sort of shit on daily basis. Honestly, I just want the game to be good. How to fix this fiasco... I have no idea.

    Sadly you can't fix this fiasco. The damage is irrevocable, now it's all about keeping it from getting worse.

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239

    Me? I dislike the way she is portrayed, it is unrealistic and there isnt enough development for it. The suggestion to flesh her out more and hell to include the girld of gender change if it has been kept, that cursed belt would be like a gift from the heavens for any real life trans person.

    There is also the fact, that belt exists, that means that magic to change ones gender exists in the realms.... I find it hard that there would be many trans people around due to this, possibly someone who couldnt afford the cost such a spell would incur, but yeah.... Magic to change ones gender completely apparently exists in the realms, hence the solution to pretty much any trans persons woes is availble and a possibility.

    You know what? Let's get into that for a minute, because it's not like any other avenue of discussion is going to bear fruit so why not.

    Here's the problem with the belt, and wild surges, and general reliance on magic to change your gender: it doesn't last. A cursed belt is either removed or stuck on you for the rest of your life. A Transmutation or Alteration spell that changes your form can be dispelled - hell, you could get nailed by a Dispel Magic spell by accident.

    So in this magical fantasy realm of Faerun, imagine a transgender character who finally manages to change herself so that her physical form matches her gender identity. And then a year later some cleric bumps into her and accidentally dispels the effect, changing her back. Imagine the horror, the trauma, and then tell me it makes perfect sense for someone who isn't a mage to be like "Yay, magic!"

    Khamac
  • BillyH666BillyH666 Member Posts: 96

    I'm in total agreement with fleshing out Mizhena, I don't think the current dialogue should be temporarily removed however. Just add more depth in a patch.

    Khamac
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136

    Amber Scott probably doesn't think original Baldur's gate was terrible, but sheis following the "progressive" approach, where writing about straight white male is considered to be almost sexist crime or at least backward.

    Well, she herself writes about straight white males. So... not sure about that.

    My original question for you was why and how you feel personally insulted by someone saying that there is sexism in Baldur's Gate.

  • Incantus89Incantus89 Member Posts: 28
    Dorcus said:

    somebody make a bingo card that's like: bad writing, "Amber Scott", Kotaku, I have no problem with transexual people but, SJW shoehorning, etc, etc, and the center square is the Girdle of M/F

    Yes yes we should all just accept it, and I normally agree... But I have transsexual friends, gamers who have now noticed this going on and are honestly insulted by how this NPC was handled. And several other trans people have spoken about this as well.

    I'm trying to be constructive because I love DnD and Baldurs Gate was for me the start of that love, I dont dislike the character at all, I dislike how patronizing the dialogue with her is.

  • minsc4prezminsc4prez Member Posts: 97
    edited April 2016
    https://youtube.com/watch?v=z9xId023su0They should also add in a level 7 arcane spells called "My soggy knee" that insta-gibs any female character in a 10m radius

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 11,444
    RedKnight said:

    My main worry was that it sounded like she changed the original content in order to show off her "proggressive" approach. I hear from some people who played the game that its not that terrible.

    yeah, if by "not that terrible" you really mean "it didn't happen."

    craymond727
This discussion has been closed.