If you agree that Beamdog is SJWing - and you're aware of the fact that they have WotC's backing on this - then the same question applies: what are you doing here? Why be part of a board if you believe the people running it are disrespecting or vilifying your beliefs?
They're not disrespecting or vilifying my beliefs … I don't care too much if anyone does that. Sure, it's a little hurtful, but free speech can be hurtful sometimes, just the way it is. Where I take issue is that they have made one of my favorite game series their own (poorly written) fan fiction.
At least they're finally being honest, though. A lot of people thought I was nuts when I said they were taking liberties with existing characters in BG1:EE and BGII:EE. Now it's been done even more blatantly and genuinely proudly.
It's the sort of thing that you see in a fan-made mod and you laugh, shake your head, realize it must appeal to some people, and move on. But let's be honest … This is a beloved franchise. When old fans hear the promises of something official, a big project by professional developers, they hope. They can't help but hope. "Why play the game? Why not move on?" Because we still have a sliver of hope. Probably stupid of us, frankly, which is a sad thing to say.
So basically you are saying there is nothing wrong with being PC...
It may seem ironic, but there are key differences.
First, political correctness is tied in and enforced in the very rules or setting in which you are trying to converse. If a person has the power to silence you, ban you, imprison you, block you, or otherwise take away your voice, it is a form of political correctness. Often times, fear is applied to this as well. As fear of repercussions can silence someone.
Criticism is different. Telling someone that you disagree, or that they are wrong is not a form of being politically correct. The person has just as much right to argue their point back at you.
First you say this: "Because it's a form of though control where people are constantly worried about offending people around them,"
But then you say this: "So when someone calls you out on saying something that may offend them, they’re not limiting your free speech, just exercising theirs."
So basically you are saying there is nothing wrong with being PC...
You know that being politically correct and being respectful are two different things right?
First you say this: "Because it's a form of though control where people are constantly worried about offending people around them,"
But then you say this: "So when someone calls you out on saying something that may offend them, they’re not limiting your free speech, just exercising theirs."
So basically you are saying there is nothing wrong with being PC...
Oo, revealing the contradiction, I can't help it...
Friends perhaps you can tell me why "political correctness" is considered a bad thing.
Because it's a form of though control where people are constantly worried about offending people around them, so they never speak their minds, leading to frustration and control of the masses who believe it's fine to repress your thoughts. Self-imposed tyranny is the worst thing that can happen to a human being. However, the freedom of speech doesn’t say that you have free speech without repercussions or without someone else exercising their own freedom to disagree with you. So when someone calls you out on saying something that may offend them, they’re not limiting your free speech, just exercising theirs.
I don't know what you mean by thought control but I think what you are saying is that political correctness is fine as long as it is used reasonably? And people who are rude should be called out, within reason? I think that's something we can all agree on. Thank you for your contribution to the discussion friend.
The thing is, who decides what is reasonable usage of political correctness? You ask someone like @mzachary there... he seems to think that its sexist and racist just to dislike the character change, even if the person is disliking it for non-sexist and non-racist reasons.
Perhaps rather than fearing the fringe we should have faith that the majority of society can find the happy medium. These things will sort themselves out, have no fear friend.
Friends perhaps you can tell me why "political correctness" is considered a bad thing.
Because it's a form of though control where people are constantly worried about offending people around them, so they never speak their minds, leading to frustration and control of the masses who believe it's fine to repress your thoughts. Self-imposed tyranny is the worst thing that can happen to a human being. However, the freedom of speech doesn’t say that you have free speech without repercussions or without someone else exercising their own freedom to disagree with you. So when someone calls you out on saying something that may offend them, they’re not limiting your free speech, just exercising theirs.
I don't know what you mean by thought control but I think what you are saying is that political correctness is fine as long as it is used reasonably? And people who are rude should be called out, within reason? I think that's something we can all agree on. Thank you for your contribution to the discussion friend.
The thing is, who decides what is reasonable usage of political correctness? You ask someone like @mzachary there... he seems to think that its sexist and racist just to dislike the character change, even if the person is disliking it for non-sexist and non-racist reasons.
On the contrary @RedKnight amusingly it is you who is being 'politically correct' because you want me to stop hurting your feelings by not calling you sexist. While the simple matter is that disliking a character change because the character is changed into a female is factually rather sexist. ;-)
Ok, I'm repeating here what I said on the 13 page of this thread: let's not turn this discussion into personal attacks. Do not continue discussing what, in your opinion, other user should or shouldn't do here.
Please try to refrain from personal attacks, we are all fellow Baldur's Gate lovers after all so let's try to get along friends and have a nice discussion.
I would agree with you if you said that downvoting a game you have not played is a dick move. But you want the govrenment to make it illegal. Thats just sick! This is something Metacritic should fix - not get the government involved by censoring the whole internet. Trust me,... you dont want the government to control the internet. That would be bad for everyone.
At least we agreed on something. And to calm you down - no, I did not mean "thous down-voting should be executed on spot". But some rules of RL can be applied to situations like this. What would happen if a crowd would stand in front of some shop screaming "do not shop here - the owner supports transsexuals!"? You can not imagine it? But this is exactly what we've got on Metacritic.
Probably you are right and THIS situation is something Metacritic itself has to deal with. When I was talking about law enforcement I though more about situations when people get physical (by which I mean life-threats in mails, attacks on families and so on, which do happen). But digital world becoming more and more "real" - your job, reputation, life can depend on it. Don't you think all of it needs some protection?
I dont approve of what GGers are doing to Beamdog for what seem to be trivial and non-existent reasons, but Beamdog made it worse by choosing to be as divisive as possible in their comments on this whole affair, which only made things worse after the interview. i also understand GGers. Unlike the feminist SJW mob, they dont have the support of the mainstream media, so they use guerilla tactics in order to achieve their goals and send the message.
No, this is not a "guerilla tactic" - it's terrorism pure and simple. Their methods is exactly the reason they do not have public support - they do not protect what they have, but rather try to destroy (literally) what they did not get but count as their own. And blaming victim is never a good tactic either - no matter how stupid the victim is, a crime is a crime (just in case, now I refer to classical example for "victim's fault" of a girl walking at night in a "provocative" dress on a dangerous street). A bully should be put in place, period. Otherwise he will never learn.
First you say this: "Because it's a form of though control where people are constantly worried about offending people around them,"
But then you say this: "So when someone calls you out on saying something that may offend them, they’re not limiting your free speech, just exercising theirs."
So basically you are saying there is nothing wrong with being PC...
Oo, revealing the contradiction, I can't help it...
How is that a contradiction? Basically what I said is spaek your mind and don't repress yourself but also don't go full retard in doing so, because if someone can't fully speak their views without being respectful toward people the joke is on them I guess.
Before I go, I must admit that I am a bit sad that people are ignoring my talking points and going straight after yours, RedKnight...
I'd really like to here their opinions on my interpretations of the subject.
It may sound a bit selfish, but my hope would be that if they disagreed, then they'd have a reason why. And if they agreed, then perhaps people would find a common ground from which to discuss from.
I would agree with you if you said that downvoting a game you have not played is a dick move. But you want the govrenment to make it illegal. Thats just sick! This is something Metacritic should fix - not get the government involved by censoring the whole internet. Trust me,... you dont want the government to control the internet. That would be bad for everyone.
At least we agreed on something. And to calm you down - no, I did not mean "thous down-voting should be executed on spot". But some rules of RL can be applied to situations like this. What would happen if a crowd would stand in front of some shop screaming "do not shop here - the owner supports transsexuals!"? You can not imagine it? But this is exactly what we've got on Metacritic.
Probably you are right and THIS situation is something Metacritic itself has to deal with. When I was talking about law enforcement I though more about situations when people get physical (by which I mean life-threats in mails, attacks on families and so on, which do happen). But digital world becoming more and more "real" - your job, reputation, life can depend on it. Don't you think all of it needs some protection?
I dont approve of what GGers are doing to Beamdog for what seem to be trivial and non-existent reasons, but Beamdog made it worse by choosing to be as divisive as possible in their comments on this whole affair, which only made things worse after the interview. i also understand GGers. Unlike the feminist SJW mob, they dont have the support of the mainstream media, so they use guerilla tactics in order to achieve their goals and send the message.
No, this is not a "guerilla tactic" - it's terrorism pure and simple. Their methods is exactly the reason they do not have public support - they do not protect what they have, but rather try to destroy (literally) what they did not get but count as their own. And blaming victim is never a good tactic either - no matter how stupid the victim is, a crime is a crime (just in case, now I refer to classical example for "victim's fault" of a girl walking at night in a "provocative" dress on a dangerous street). A bully should be put in place, period. Otherwise he will never learn.
1. Find me 1... just 1 comment where someone is downvoting the game for supporting transexuals. Has someone really said: "I dont support this game because there is a transexual in it"
Seriously??
Nobody cares if the game supports transexuals. Its the SJW politics that people are reacting to, and you know it. Dont pretend like this is a witch hunt on the transexuals, because its not.
There are already laws against online threats. You can go to jail for those.
Also, this is a cultural war. There are two sides at war. GGers (or anti-SJWs as I like to call myself) and SJWs. In war there is such a thing called colleteral damage. I don't like it, but I wouldnt put all the blame for the destruction that is happening only on one side. GGers are more than willing to talk. Its the other side that doesnt want to talk and is throwing rocks at us at every turn. Although I have to be honest... this is one of the few times I actually disagree with what GG is doing. I honestly believe they just over-reacted before even playing the game.
I wish I had a bigger platform so I could talk with someone about it and put a stop to this madness before we lose BG forever, but... I am really a small nobody in the GG community. I doubt anyone would listen to me, even if I told them to stop and give the game a chance.
Before I go, I must admit that I am a bit sad that people are ignoring my talking points and going straight after yours, RedKnight...
I'd really like to here their opinions on my interpretations of the subject.
It may sound a bit selfish, but my hope would be that if they disagreed, then they'd have a reason why. And if they agreed, then perhaps people would find a common ground from which to discuss from.
There are a couple of rational SJWs that I talked to around here, and also some nice neutrals. I am even admiring Beamdog for not banning this whole discussion. I heard some GGers saying they ban people with a different opinion and that they close threads, but so far they haven't banned me and they closed only 1 thread. However i did get a warning for 3 posts someone reported. There wasnt anything offensive in them, but hey.. i am still around.
Political Correctness is a label, a shorthand term, and like all labels it is open to interpretation, use, misuse, and abuse.
None of which alters the fact that this thread is about a concerted campaign to damage and undermine Siege of Dragonspear, for reasons that seem to me to have very little (if anything) to do with Siege of Dragonspear.
Political Correctness is a label, a shorthand term, and like all labels it is open to interpretation, use, misuse, and abuse.
None of which alters the fact that this thread is about a concerted campaign to damage and undermine Siege of Dragonspear, for reasons that seem to me to have very little (if anything) to do with Siege of Dragonspear.
The discussion has nothing to do with the game itself, but it is very on topic when it comes to this whole fiasco. I disagree its doing damage. If anything, if any GGers see that some of us are actually supporting this game, they might give it a chance.
I would agree with you if you said that downvoting a game you have not played is a dick move. But you want the govrenment to make it illegal. Thats just sick! This is something Metacritic should fix - not get the government involved by censoring the whole internet. Trust me,... you dont want the government to control the internet. That would be bad for everyone.
At least we agreed on something. And to calm you down - no, I did not mean "thous down-voting should be executed on spot". But some rules of RL can be applied to situations like this. What would happen if a crowd would stand in front of some shop screaming "do not shop here - the owner supports transsexuals!"? You can not imagine it? But this is exactly what we've got on Metacritic.
Probably you are right and THIS situation is something Metacritic itself has to deal with. When I was talking about law enforcement I though more about situations when people get physical (by which I mean life-threats in mails, attacks on families and so on, which do happen). But digital world becoming more and more "real" - your job, reputation, life can depend on it. Don't you think all of it needs some protection?
I dont approve of what GGers are doing to Beamdog for what seem to be trivial and non-existent reasons, but Beamdog made it worse by choosing to be as divisive as possible in their comments on this whole affair, which only made things worse after the interview. i also understand GGers. Unlike the feminist SJW mob, they dont have the support of the mainstream media, so they use guerilla tactics in order to achieve their goals and send the message.
No, this is not a "guerilla tactic" - it's terrorism pure and simple. Their methods is exactly the reason they do not have public support - they do not protect what they have, but rather try to destroy (literally) what they did not get but count as their own. And blaming victim is never a good tactic either - no matter how stupid the victim is, a crime is a crime (just in case, now I refer to classical example for "victim's fault" of a girl walking at night in a "provocative" dress on a dangerous street). A bully should be put in place, period. Otherwise he will never learn.
1. Find me 1... just 1 comment where someone is downvoting the game for supporting transexuals. Has someone really said: "I dont support this game because there is a transexual in it"
Seriously??
Nobody cares if the game supports transexuals. Its the SJW politics that people are reacting to, and you know it. Dont pretend like this is a witch hunt on the transexuals, because its not.
There are already laws against online threats. You can go to jail for those.
Also, this is a cultural war. There are two sides at war. GGers (or anti-SJWs as I like to call myself) and SJWs. In war there is such a thing called colleteral damage. I don't like it, but I wouldnt put all the blame for the destruction that is happening only on one side. GGers are more than willing to talk. Its the other side that doesnt want to talk and is throwing rocks at us at every turn. Although I have to be honest... this is one of the few times I actually disagree with what GG is doing. I honestly believe they just over-reacted before even playing the game.
I wish I had a bigger platform so I could talk with someone about it and put a stop to this madness before we lose BG forever, but... I am really a small nobody in the GG community. I doubt anyone would listen to me, even if I told them to stop and give the game a chance.
No, no and no! To all of it. 1. This is exactly why I call GGers cowards - they all talk about transsexual character but trying to justify their hate "with reasons". The guy on Steam openly asking to remove transsexual character from his game is at least honest. And, btw, if I recall nobody even called him a transofob - the discussion staid civilized (for some time at least). And he did not downvoted the game for a presence of said character. But GGers? No! They will bash developers, say anything about "bad writing" but would never admit their real problem. 2. "There are already laws against online threats. You can go to jail for those." - "Can" is a key word. And I think it's good something is done about protecting lives. Now, what about property and reputation? 3. THIS IS NOT A WAR! And this is exactly the problem - GGers DECLARED it's a war, THEY started to attack those they declared their opponents and demand attention by war tactics. They did not talk, they did not try to reason - they attack and demand. This is called terrorism. And there is no "collateral damage" in terroristic attacks - only victims. And it has to be stopped.
How is that a contradiction? Basically what I said is spaek your mind and don't repress yourself but also don't go full retard in doing so, because if someone can't fully speak their views without being respectful toward people the joke is on them I guess.
--cross examination 2 "What I said" --- Political correctness is a countermeasure to the downside of freedom of speech, that people with the power to express their views freely can misuse that power to attack and marginalize others. What you said, and what you continue to say (regarding not going 'full retard', and being respectful) supports holding yourself back from what you may want to say in order to respect others, which is quite in line with PC principles.
PC can be used positively (silencing hate speech) and negatively (squashing genuine discussion or other views because it disagrees with an authority's particular philosophy, which is what some people are claiming is behind this SoD crazyness). That's my position. It's not as simple as being good or bad, it depends on the situation. And since @RedKnight asked who decides what's right, I would say...us! Collectively. We need to talk to each other and work together what is and isn't acceptable behaviour, as best as we can, because you can't please everyone. Some people would rather that we all just say whatever we want with no restraints and just grow thicker-skin. I understand that point of view too.
And "the joke is on them"? Well, that's nice, but if their speech is non-constructive and involves bullying, threats and other unsavoury behaviour, it's not really a joke.
Nobody cares if the game supports transexuals. Its the SJW politics that people are reacting to, and you know it. Dont pretend like this is a witch hunt on the transexuals, because its not.
Suuure people don't have anything about transsexuals... they just have something against developers actually putting a transsexual into a game. And such a transcharacter being frank about it, even though it is really not that out of place for a cleric of Tempus...
There is something really insincere in on the one hand pretend that one has nothing agains trans people, but be outraged when a dev dares to implement one.
Also, this is a cultural war. There are two sides at war. GGers (or anti-SJWs as I like to call myself) and SJWs. In war there is such a thing called colleteral damage. I don't like it, but I wouldnt put all the blame for the destruction that is happening only on one side. GGers are more than willing to talk. Its the other side that doesnt want to talk and is throwing rocks at us at every turn. Although I have to be honest... this is one of the few times I actually disagree with what GG is doing. I honestly believe they just over-reacted before even playing the game.
What I don't understand is if GG are doing an attack of fake reviews, what does it matter what they complain about in their reviews? Complains about the transgendered character could be just as fake as their complains of bug or whatever. So how do we know what the real problem is?
See... this is where I have trouble following people. I see offensive things in videogames, books, movies, etc. all the time. Just recently I played a mediocre game called "Remember Me" and thought the first chapter's depiction of the female protagonist was an objectifying one.
And you know what I did? Nothing. I rolled my eyes at the content I found disagreeable and I evaluated the rest of the game on its merits. It would never have occurred to me to leave a 0 review or wage war on the developers, because they're just *people* who made some content that wasn't to my taste. Could you imagine if everyone responded to content they didn't like by trying to run its creator of of business?
If you think the backlash to this has been overblown, I would encourage you to do the right thing and stand up against these people even if you happen to agree with them: write an honest review that evaluates the game on the other 99.99% of its content, even if it's negative. There's right and there's wrong no matter which side of the fence you're on.
You know the GGer's would say that the SJW's ruin stuff they like all the time? Both sides make good points, and both sides really suck.
Beamdog, to their shame, should have never needled the beast. Baldur's Gate is the thing that's going to suffer.
If you have experienced having your game ruined because an angry group of people who have never played the game didn't like some small thing that was in it.........then you shouldn't be condoning that behavior now either. It's fundamentally wrong to try and destroy someone else's experience because you don't like a tiny part of what's in it. It's wrong when other people do it and it's wrong now.
I don't condone it. But it goes both ways. Beamdog started this. A lot of GG'er had their experienced ruined. And saying it's a small thing is subjective. Clearly it's not small to a lot of people.
Beamdog should have never gotten involved. I blame them. GG'ers and SJW's just gonna do what they do.
No, it doesn't go both ways. If I tell you a joke that offends you, it's ON YOU if you overreact and try to kill me over it.
Nobody is killing anyone. That is a terrible analogy. Beamdog hit the GG community in such a way that they felt the sting. The only way GG can return the favor so that Beamdog can feel the sting is by what they are doing right now. I dont like it, since I want BG to sell well, but I understand GG reaction. And believe me it is mild in comparison to what SJWs have been pulling.
Why do you have to react at all? Why not simply move on? Not everything needs to be approached as a great battle my friend, no matter how much Tempus wills it.
Because I have seen SJWs ruin things over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. Now they are infiltrating BG... my favorite game of all time and if they win this war, Baldur's Gate will be dead. It will become a shell of what it once was.
I'm not trying to be dense here friend but could you explain to me in what way things have been "ruined" by "SJWs" or what you fear will happen to Baldur's Gate? I've only come across some fairly inoffensive things in the expansion so far but perhaps I didn't see the right things?
Well, how would you feel if one day Beamdog decided to change Minsc into a woman for absolutely no other reason than to push forward their political agenda? They have done that to Thor in the comic industry. Fans of original lost their mind. They said: "Build a new character if you want more female representation in the comic industry, but dont change the existing content." SJWs response was: "People are hating on our new comics because they hate women." People who were misrepresented got pissed and arguing started and now the comic book community is divided.
Now, you might say: "Beamdog would never do that!" But, here is the thing with SJWs. They are never happy! You give them a finger and they will take the hand. Its happened in comics, it happened in every media they touched, its happening in gaming as we speak and they wont rest until they get what they want - which just happens to be completely opposite of what most people want.
That is just one example. I gave more examples in my long post earlier and I dont feel like repeating myself. Go read it.
Your example sucks, because Thor isn't a woman in the comics. They didn't magically gender-bend Thor. He was unworthy of the hammer, so it abandoned him for a beloved female character fully entrenched in the mythos of Thor. This is in no way PERMANENT. A few years back Batman died and Dick became Batman, and no one made this kind of hullaballoo, but they do when they're female. THIS is why people see this criticism as SEXIST. When Spidey was replaced by Doc Ock, people rightly lost their shit because it was a bad guy taking over a beloved character. People lost their shit because the hammer of Thor went to a woman FOR A TEMPORARY STORYLINE. That's sexist, end of story.
If the made Minsc a trans person or a woman or something, hey, I'd probably be right here with you saying how stupid Beamdog are. But they didn't do anything of the sort. They haven't ruined a thing.
People oppose it because its driven by political agenda. That is the problem. I have said that multiple times, yet here you are arguing with your own strawmen. Yes, you can rationalize the change however you want. Hell, I bet you could make a story about Minsc becoming a woman, considering Fearun has items that would allow for such a change. Thats not the problem. Problem is that we are living in an age where you have political activists doing these sorts of changes for no other reason than to "bring diversity" and then they pretend its sexism when people dont like the changes.
Oh, but then its racism, no matter that these same people would be equally pissed if they changed Black Panther into a white dude.
Um, well, yeah... it is racist. Spidey has been changed BEFORE. SEVERAL TIMES. And no one made a media circus of it until he was black. That is the point. Stop living in a fantasy world where the people who bitch about this stuff have the best intentions.
And if you're still spouting this crap about comic books characters not being used for a political agenda, you clearly have 0 concept of the medium's history. CAPTAIN AMERICA'S FIRST APPEARANCE HAD HIM SOCKING HITLER IN THE JAW.
IRON MAN FOUGHT COMMUNISTS
X-MEN WERE CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVISTS
BLACK PANTHER IS NAMED AFTER A BLACK RIGHTS GROUP
THE SUPERHUMAN REGISTRATION ACT IS A COMMENT ON THE PATRIOT ACT
AND THOR IS A WOMAN FOR A SHORT TIME FOR THE CAUSE OF FEMINISM
WELCOME TO COMICS
These stories do not exist in a vacuum. They are influenced and changed by the world around them. Green Lantern used to get his power from magic; when magic when out of vogue and science fiction became big in the 50s, he was completely changed to a fighter pilot with sci-fi technology. Same for Flash.
These changes are celebrated. Changes involving women and minorities aren't (by certain people). That's bigotry.
Of course they dont exist in the vacuum, and yes spidey was changed before and people didnt like that change either. Even Stan Lee - the greatest comic book artist of the last century - the guy who created Spiderman and many other superheroes - both female and black - said he wants to remember the characters as they were! Is he also racist for disagreeing with your feminist SJW opinion?
Totally ignoring my argument once again. And I actually agree with Lee - I don't want to see a Peter Parker who isn't exactly as he is. But Miles Morales isn't just a black Peter Parker. He is his successor. You would know that if you read the material.
People oppose it because its driven by political agenda. That is the problem. I have said that multiple times, yet here you are arguing with your own strawmen. Yes, you can rationalize the change however you want. Hell, I bet you could make a story about Minsc becoming a woman, considering Fearun has items that would allow for such a change. Thats not the problem. Problem is that we are living in an age where you have political activists doing these sorts of changes for no other reason than to "bring diversity" and then they pretend its sexism when people dont like the changes.
Well I was there when they changed Starbuck in the Battlestar Galactica reboot and the outrage over that was blatandly sexism of the 'Starbuck can't be a girl' kind. It is really simple, is there a profound reason why a character can't be a woman? If no then the criticism about changing the character is most likely not about the character itself, but about it being a woman and that is indeed rather sexist
Again... the problem is changing characters for political reasons. Maybe it doesnt bother you, but it does bother some people. Ok, we have a difference of opinion, but WHY do you SJW types have this need to then call people who disagree with your view as sexist?
How is it sexist to dislike the change, because its not true to the original? Where is sexism in this argument? I like the content to be true to the original interpretation of the character. SJWs: OMFG! THATS SO SEXIST!
ts this preachy moral highground attitude that pisses people off about you people.
SUPER
HEROES
HAVE
ALWAYS
BEEN USED
POLITICALLY
SEE ARGUMENT A B C D AND E ABOVE AND STOP FAILING TO ADDRESS THEM
None of these "why I'm offended" posts are relevant. It doesn't matter why people don't like the game - the fact that they are trying to tank reviews and artificially hurt sales for a game that they haven't even played is despicable. It would be just as despicable if "SJWs" tried to destroy a release like Pillars of Eternity for having an allegedly transphobic joke.
Except that happened, and they didn't. Some complained, some boycotted, but no one was subjected to this. I don't care what your views are or what you find offensive, you don't get to try and destroy something other people love just because you find it distasteful. You can beat around the bush and obfuscate and reference comic books all you want, but that's what this boils down to. It's social censorship and its unwarranted in any medium.
This is not EA or Bethesda, it's is a small company with a small number of employees whose ability to make future content could be impacted by this if the hate campaign were successful. If there was a movie with a few lines you found offensive, would you fight in hopes of ruining the director's career? If there was a book whose content you were insulted by, would you try to bomb Goodreads in hopes that the author loses out on future publication contracts?
Because that's what's happening here. And for every minute you sit in this thread whining about Thor or saying that one metareference to what is now a common internet meme was personally targeted at you WITHOUT confronting what gamergate is doing, then you are implicitly condoning it. This issue is why this thread was created, not to debate the degree to which Beamdog hurt your feelings or how the world is going to hell because feminism.
Thread Topic: The artificial 3.6/10 score on Metacritic and similar scores on GoG re: concerted hate campaign. If you have actually played the game, please consider leaving an honest review on one of these sites.
The acronym or the group? The acronym stands for gamergate. The group stands for an inability to tolerate any content that they don't politically agree with.
I have no problem with having a transgender character in SoD at all. This is DnD and everyone is invited to the party, end of story. Additionally, I defer all opinions about the implementation of the character to all my transgender brothers and sisters who enjoy BG as much as I do.
I DO think that a gamergate joke being added is in terribly bad taste and immersion breaking. Having the most beloved character in the franchise saying it? Yuck. Gamergate was depressing and had terrible behavior on both sides (IMHO). Extremists spent their energy hurling accusations and poisoning the conversation. They do not represent the majority on either side: those of us who want to live and let live and play fun games! That being said, I made this tiny mod that removes the line from Minsc's repertoire. Just drop it in your override folder. (untested, just swapped the stringref in Near Infinity for the Yes! line)
Also, perhaps some of the statements made in the infamous Kotaku interview were made with a low wisdom score. Very foolish to criticize the beloved game that you're trying to add to. Show me a game that was less sexist in 1998 than Baldur's Gate. (Jaheira... sexist?? I mean, what?).
Finally, I don't care that Trent made one post, most likely because he was really upset and worried. This is one place I feel he is entitled to ask for help - the awesome Beamdog community. Put yourself in his shoes for one second.
End of the day, the game rocks and I'm having a total blast playing it. Can't wait for all this to blow over.
EDIT: I plan on leaving an honest and positive review once I finish my playthrough.
The acronym or the group? The acronym stands for gamergate. The group stands for an inability to tolerate any content that they don't politically agree with.
The acronym or the group? The acronym stands for gamergate. The group stands for an inability to tolerate any content that they don't politically agree with.
Projecting much?
No. I have never, ever in my life tried to wage war on a developer because I didn't like something they created. I have argued against opinions that I disagree with, but I would never do what gamergate is doing now.
Wouldn't be able to look at myself in the goddamn mirror.
I envy those with so little worry in their life that this can take such precedence. This issue is receiving a lot more attention than it is warranted, and it seems to only be growing.
I pity those with nary else to do but act on that precedent.
SoD is just pretentious and thats what people dont like. It was written to fit a very specific point of view. Dont wonder why it has gotten so much hate. Beamdog team spent to much time in this forum, with BG: EE community. The true BG community wasnt here cause whenever they felt the need to point something out, SJW from this very forum ignored what they said and replied in their usual passive aggressive way that in most cases isnt even an answer. Beamdog team failed when they decided to take guidance on how to make their game by taking into consideration the opinions who infiltrated here since fist year of EE only to push their agendas. I have been here since BG:EE and i own every single Beamdog game on gog and some also on beamdog. I tried many times to express my dissatisfaction with choices they made but every time i stumbled upon walls of certain community members who ALWAYS reply on the same manner. That manner is IGNORING your statement while repeating their opinions. So whenever u try to write something on a forum and u stumble upon 10 people who behave in a *civilized*, *calm* and *pretentious friendly* way, with their only goal to diminish your views, opinions and feelings, its unavoidable that u will stop involving after some time. A big number of this forums users abused anyone that tried to pass a different opinion along, but they did so in a subtle way. Even today every post that beamdog community doesnt like get the sames responses, the same false friendly and civilized replies.
at this point i dont care if i get banned, cause i will prolly never come back here anyway and bury my hopes for BG3 forever, unless the Devs wake up and see how the core supporters of this forums made them believe that they are going the right way.
BG:EE should have continued what Black Isle started instead of trying to patronize every gamer out there.
Sincerely a person with life, friends, work, family and joy that doesnt spent all his day in forums trying to make everything fit his own points of view.
The acronym or the group? The acronym stands for gamergate. The group stands for an inability to tolerate any content that they don't politically agree with.
Projecting much?
No. I have never, ever in my life tried to wage war on a developer because I didn't like something they created. I have argued against opinions that I disagree with, but I would never do what gamergate is doing now.
Wouldn't be able to look at myself in the goddamn mirror.
Its not the whole gamergate doing it. I am part of GG and I do not participate in this travesty - in fact I condemn it. So far there have been 111 negative reviews. Even if we assume that every single one of them was written by GGs, its still less than 0,0001% of our community. And I am not even sure its GGers that are behind it. There are people who are not GG and who despise SJWs too, there are trolls, there are modern gamers who dislike anything that does not have the latest uber graphics, etc. I think your comment is inflamatory and divisive - which is exactly what BG at this moment does not need.
Comments
At least they're finally being honest, though. A lot of people thought I was nuts when I said they were taking liberties with existing characters in BG1:EE and BGII:EE. Now it's been done even more blatantly and genuinely proudly.
It's the sort of thing that you see in a fan-made mod and you laugh, shake your head, realize it must appeal to some people, and move on. But let's be honest … This is a beloved franchise. When old fans hear the promises of something official, a big project by professional developers, they hope. They can't help but hope. "Why play the game? Why not move on?" Because we still have a sliver of hope. Probably stupid of us, frankly, which is a sad thing to say.
First, political correctness is tied in and enforced in the very rules or setting in which you are trying to converse. If a person has the power to silence you, ban you, imprison you, block you, or otherwise take away your voice, it is a form of political correctness. Often times, fear is applied to this as well. As fear of repercussions can silence someone.
Criticism is different. Telling someone that you disagree, or that they are wrong is not a form of being politically correct. The person has just as much right to argue their point back at you.
(I'm afraid I am out of time for now. Carry on.)
Probably you are right and THIS situation is something Metacritic itself has to deal with. When I was talking about law enforcement I though more about situations when people get physical (by which I mean life-threats in mails, attacks on families and so on, which do happen). But digital world becoming more and more "real" - your job, reputation, life can depend on it. Don't you think all of it needs some protection? No, this is not a "guerilla tactic" - it's terrorism pure and simple. Their methods is exactly the reason they do not have public support - they do not protect what they have, but rather try to destroy (literally) what they did not get but count as their own.
And blaming victim is never a good tactic either - no matter how stupid the victim is, a crime is a crime (just in case, now I refer to classical example for "victim's fault" of a girl walking at night in a "provocative" dress on a dangerous street). A bully should be put in place, period. Otherwise he will never learn.
I'd really like to here their opinions on my interpretations of the subject.
It may sound a bit selfish, but my hope would be that if they disagreed, then they'd have a reason why. And if they agreed, then perhaps people would find a common ground from which to discuss from.
Seriously??
Nobody cares if the game supports transexuals. Its the SJW politics that people are reacting to, and you know it. Dont pretend like this is a witch hunt on the transexuals, because its not.
There are already laws against online threats. You can go to jail for those.
Also, this is a cultural war. There are two sides at war. GGers (or anti-SJWs as I like to call myself) and SJWs. In war there is such a thing called colleteral damage. I don't like it, but I wouldnt put all the blame for the destruction that is happening only on one side. GGers are more than willing to talk. Its the other side that doesnt want to talk and is throwing rocks at us at every turn. Although I have to be honest... this is one of the few times I actually disagree with what GG is doing. I honestly believe they just over-reacted before even playing the game.
I wish I had a bigger platform so I could talk with someone about it and put a stop to this madness before we lose BG forever, but... I am really a small nobody in the GG community. I doubt anyone would listen to me, even if I told them to stop and give the game a chance.
None of which alters the fact that this thread is about a concerted campaign to damage and undermine Siege of Dragonspear, for reasons that seem to me to have very little (if anything) to do with Siege of Dragonspear.
No, no and no! To all of it.
1. This is exactly why I call GGers cowards - they all talk about transsexual character but trying to justify their hate "with reasons". The guy on Steam openly asking to remove transsexual character from his game is at least honest. And, btw, if I recall nobody even called him a transofob - the discussion staid civilized (for some time at least). And he did not downvoted the game for a presence of said character. But GGers? No! They will bash developers, say anything about "bad writing" but would never admit their real problem.
2. "There are already laws against online threats. You can go to jail for those." - "Can" is a key word. And I think it's good something is done about protecting lives. Now, what about property and reputation?
3. THIS IS NOT A WAR! And this is exactly the problem - GGers DECLARED it's a war, THEY started to attack those they declared their opponents and demand attention by war tactics. They did not talk, they did not try to reason - they attack and demand. This is called terrorism. And there is no "collateral damage" in terroristic attacks - only victims. And it has to be stopped.
Political correctness is a countermeasure to the downside of freedom of speech, that people with the power to express their views freely can misuse that power to attack and marginalize others. What you said, and what you continue to say (regarding not going 'full retard', and being respectful) supports holding yourself back from what you may want to say in order to respect others, which is quite in line with PC principles.
PC can be used positively (silencing hate speech) and negatively (squashing genuine discussion or other views because it disagrees with an authority's particular philosophy, which is what some people are claiming is behind this SoD crazyness). That's my position. It's not as simple as being good or bad, it depends on the situation. And since @RedKnight asked who decides what's right, I would say...us! Collectively. We need to talk to each other and work together what is and isn't acceptable behaviour, as best as we can, because you can't please everyone. Some people would rather that we all just say whatever we want with no restraints and just grow thicker-skin. I understand that point of view too.
And "the joke is on them"? Well, that's nice, but if their speech is non-constructive and involves bullying, threats and other unsavoury behaviour, it's not really a joke.
There is something really insincere in on the one hand pretend that one has nothing agains trans people, but be outraged when a dev dares to implement one.
Yes this is not sounding silly at all...
HEROES
HAVE
ALWAYS
BEEN USED
POLITICALLY
SEE ARGUMENT A B C D AND E ABOVE AND STOP FAILING TO ADDRESS THEM
Except that happened, and they didn't. Some complained, some boycotted, but no one was subjected to this. I don't care what your views are or what you find offensive, you don't get to try and destroy something other people love just because you find it distasteful. You can beat around the bush and obfuscate and reference comic books all you want, but that's what this boils down to. It's social censorship and its unwarranted in any medium.
This is not EA or Bethesda, it's is a small company with a small number of employees whose ability to make future content could be impacted by this if the hate campaign were successful. If there was a movie with a few lines you found offensive, would you fight in hopes of ruining the director's career? If there was a book whose content you were insulted by, would you try to bomb Goodreads in hopes that the author loses out on future publication contracts?
Because that's what's happening here. And for every minute you sit in this thread whining about Thor or saying that one metareference to what is now a common internet meme was personally targeted at you WITHOUT confronting what gamergate is doing, then you are implicitly condoning it. This issue is why this thread was created, not to debate the degree to which Beamdog hurt your feelings or how the world is going to hell because feminism.
Thread Topic: The artificial 3.6/10 score on Metacritic and similar scores on GoG re: concerted hate campaign. If you have actually played the game, please consider leaving an honest review on one of these sites.
I have no problem with having a transgender character in SoD at all. This is DnD and everyone is invited to the party, end of story. Additionally, I defer all opinions about the implementation of the character to all my transgender brothers and sisters who enjoy BG as much as I do.
I DO think that a gamergate joke being added is in terribly bad taste and immersion breaking. Having the most beloved character in the franchise saying it? Yuck. Gamergate was depressing and had terrible behavior on both sides (IMHO). Extremists spent their energy hurling accusations and poisoning the conversation. They do not represent the majority on either side: those of us who want to live and let live and play fun games! That being said, I made this tiny mod that removes the line from Minsc's repertoire. Just drop it in your override folder. (untested, just swapped the stringref in Near Infinity for the Yes! line)
Also, perhaps some of the statements made in the infamous Kotaku interview were made with a low wisdom score. Very foolish to criticize the beloved game that you're trying to add to. Show me a game that was less sexist in 1998 than Baldur's Gate. (Jaheira... sexist?? I mean, what?).
Finally, I don't care that Trent made one post, most likely because he was really upset and worried. This is one place I feel he is entitled to ask for help - the awesome Beamdog community. Put yourself in his shoes for one second.
End of the day, the game rocks and I'm having a total blast playing it. Can't wait for all this to blow over.
EDIT: I plan on leaving an honest and positive review once I finish my playthrough.
Epathy for everyone!
Wouldn't be able to look at myself in the goddamn mirror.
I pity those with nary else to do but act on that precedent.
It was written to fit a very specific point of view.
Dont wonder why it has gotten so much hate.
Beamdog team spent to much time in this forum, with BG: EE community. The true BG community wasnt here cause whenever they felt the need to point something out, SJW from this very forum ignored what they said and replied in their usual passive aggressive way that in most cases isnt even an answer.
Beamdog team failed when they decided to take guidance on how to make their game by taking into consideration the opinions who infiltrated here since fist year of EE only to push their agendas.
I have been here since BG:EE and i own every single Beamdog game on gog and some also on beamdog. I tried many times to express my dissatisfaction with choices they made but every time i stumbled upon walls of certain community members who ALWAYS reply on the same manner.
That manner is IGNORING your statement while repeating their opinions. So whenever u try to write something on a forum and u stumble upon 10 people who behave in a *civilized*, *calm* and *pretentious friendly* way, with their only goal to diminish your views, opinions and feelings, its unavoidable that u will stop involving after some time.
A big number of this forums users abused anyone that tried to pass a different opinion along, but they did so in a subtle way. Even today every post that beamdog community doesnt like get the sames responses, the same false friendly and civilized replies.
at this point i dont care if i get banned, cause i will prolly never come back here anyway and bury my hopes for BG3 forever, unless the Devs wake up and see how the core supporters of this forums made them believe that they are going the right way.
BG:EE should have continued what Black Isle started instead of trying to patronize every gamer out there.
Sincerely a person with life, friends, work, family and joy that doesnt spent all his day in forums trying to make everything fit his own points of view.