Before I even read the reviews or anyone else commented - I wrote here that the Female thief use to be a bombshell 1950s live by feminine wiles lady ala Marilyn Monroe but now seemed to me to be morphed into a hostile female. She was threatening dirty minded nasty business suggesting Edwin. She was NOT hostile in BG1. I myself, and a lot of other somewhat portly old male players who played BG 1 in 1998 were hurt that our ideal culture of Conan who saves the slave girl and is assisted by the coy, strong, but NOT male hostile Amazon Lady Pirate Red Sonja is slain. Old 1 percent Males like myself are kicked in our wanting to be swelled with excitement heads by the negativity nailed into our brains with meany Safana.
When I was young and tough I took pleasure in besting Sharteel and tagging her along - always hoping I could save her from her man hate as she was no doubt abused by huge male orcs in some terrible slave pit. But Safana was the lady you got to stroke your ego and make you think you were cool. Now she is more like Sharteel then Safana - why not just then leave her out and give us a Sharteel Dual classed to a thief we find at our Duke Palace meet up- if we had the original Sharteel should could vanish at the end of the Intro and come back again as a New Ftr/Thief - or better yet an overpowered Fighter/ Assian with some trap/lockpick binded on character ring to compensate for the low level assassin thief skills. She could talk massive smack and hate on my male Fighter and then set things up for a terrible violent tryst that would make the Dorn nasty reaction look like a happy party. I would feel great guilt and disgust and delete the game from my computer - after of course the ultimate finish of the encounter -and get some counseling with my cleric about it.
The game designers have wrecked everything I cried so hard I drove myself to a strange dance place last night so I could feel the love - NOT I hate those sad places. Overall the Game was well done... but in the future it would please me - and a lot of other fat older guys - if Beamdog made the ladies more male pleasure seeking - maybe Jaheera could spawn Druid Berry sandwiches next time and take them out of the cleft of her jerkin. (I AM KIDDING DON'T PUT THAT IN!)
Before I even read the reviews or anyone else commented - I wrote here that the Female thief use to be a bombshell 1950s live by feminine wiles lady ala Marilyn Monroe but now seemed to me to be morphed into a hostile female. She was threatening dirty minded nasty business suggesting Edwin. She was NOT hostile in BG1. I myself, and a lot of other somewhat portly old male players who played BG 1 in 1998 were hurt that our ideal culture of Conan who saves the slave girl and is assisted by the coy, strong, but NOT male hostile Amazon Lady Pirate Red Sonja is slain. Old 1 percent Males like myself are kicked in our wanting to be swelled with excitement heads by the negativity nailed into our brains with meany Safana.
When I was young and tough I took pleasure in besting Sharteel and tagging her along - always hoping I could save her from her man hate as she was no doubt abused by huge male orcs in some terrible slave pit. But Safana was the lady you got to stroke your ego and make you think you were cool. Now she is more like Sharteel then Safana - why not just then leave her out and give us a Sharteel Dual classed to a thief we find at our Duke Palace meet up- if we had the original Sharteel should could vanish at the end of the Intro and come back again as a New Ftr/Thief - or better yet an overpowered Fighter/ Assian with some trap/lockpick binded on character ring to compensate for the low level assassin thief skills. She could talk massive smack and hate on my male Fighter and then set things up for a terrible violent tryst that would make the Dorn nasty reaction look like a happy party. I would feel great guilt and disgust and delete the game from my computer - after of course the ultimate finish of the encounter -and get some counseling with my cleric about it.
The game designers have wrecked everything I cried so hard I drove myself to a strange dance place last night so I could feel the love - NOT I hate those sad places. Overall the Game was well done... but in the future it would please me - and a lot of other fat older guys - if Beamdog made the ladies more male pleasure seeking - maybe Jaheera could spawn Druid Berry sandwiches next time and take them out of the cleft of her jerkin. (I AM KIDDING DON'T PUT THAT IN!)
Dude... whut? This is the kind of stuff I expect to see scrawled in bodily fluids on the inside of a padded cell.
Writing is all about selling your political beliefs. A writer that does not put any of themselves into their writing is a hack just doing it for the money.
I couldn't disagree more. Writing is about creating an end product for consumption by other human beings, and it can have whatever merits you're able to endow it with. It doesn't have to push your personal politics. It could push politics that you don't believe in at all. There are plenty more themes you can explore and feelings you can try to evoke that just mindless agreement with your own beliefs. There are also times where it is entirely inappropriate to insert your own worldview, such as when writing an instruction manual, or when a bitter and cynical writer is writing romantic comedy.
A Baldur's Gate game is not an appropriate venue for the promotion of identity politics, in my opinion. I think it undermines the game as much as bitterness and cynicism would undermine a romantic comedy.
People are entitled to disagree with that, and they're certainly entitled to write pieces promoting identity politics. I just wish this hadn't been one of 'em.
While supporters of SJW politics are happy to play victim here, other games are being boycotted and altered because of a woman's butt...
It makes the mind boggle to see their lack of self-realization, when you consider what would happen if Beamdog had instead cast an anti-abortion Cleric, and the only response options were in support of this viewpoint?
I am fully certain that the result would have been very different from the Social Justice crowd here, but it would have inevitably had a very similar, and likely greater effect on Beamdog's Metacritic score when their self-righteous wrath was unleashed.
You know, I actually agree that rating a game very low because of a single political/social issue is wrong, not that I think it's actually a single issue. But don't pretend that this is something SJWs don't do to games containing even a small amount of material they don't like.
Does anyone not remember an infamous limerick that was removed for being 'trans-phobic', under threat of boycott? Games developed by female game developers, who are then called sexist? How about the multiple women who have been covered up and censored by these very same moralizing myopics?
In this instance, it's not even a single issue, as they would like it to appear. It's multiple issues: C+ level writing, voice acting, bugs, mood, pacing. Sure, that doesn't deserve a 0/10. It certainly doesn't deserve high praise, either.
A Baldur's Gate game is not an appropriate venue for the promotion of identity politics, in my opinion. I think it undermines the game as much as bitterness and cynicism would undermine a romantic comedy.
Right, because bitterness and cynicism are opposite to a romantic comedy...and identity politics are, then, somehow, opposite to Baldur's Gate? How, exactly? Baldur's Gate is about having an epic world-saving story, and that seems like a perfect venue to explore who you are as a person.
. become a creative artist and share your beliefs, whatever they may be, through your creative endeavors.
Which is fine, as long as it is not done in an artificial manner, by e.g. using token characters to sell your political beliefs or altering an established character because it does not fit your view of how the world /should/ be (as opposed to how it really is). [end quote] Not sure why the close quote tag isn't working, but this is the end of the quoted material and my reply follows...
Whether or not an artistic creation comes off as "artificial", or anything else, is up to the viewer/consumer. One person's "artificial" will be another person's "good try", another person's "Love this!!!!" and/or another person's "this sucks".
The creator creates, the viewer/listener/consumer reacts. Neither can dictate to the other, really, or it ceases to be an artistic creation. Unless the creator *chooses* to have their work be collaborative with the audience, of course. But that is very, very uncommon in my experience.
they're certainly entitled to write pieces promoting identity politics. I just wish this hadn't been one of 'em.
It isn't.
I played through the starting dungeon and the first few quests outside it, and the only thing that is being promoted, is BG-style adventuring!
So relax, and don't take one or two lines out of a 25 hour expansion, out of proportion.
Now I gotta get back to the game... )
The writer knows what an SJW is, claims to be one, and says it's in her writing. I know what one is, and I can see it very clearly in the writing.
If both of us agree, then who are you to say we're wrong? I've given multiple examples and it's still the same old story. People even say it's a conspiracy theory to think that Amber Scott was telling the truth, and confirmation bias to recognise what she did in the material.
Why's it so hard to accept when Beamdog's so eager to admit it?
Identity politics don't explore who you are as a person, they reduce you to a label. Transgender, for example.
That's just plain untrue. If someone's reducing people to labels, it's the bigots killing Mizhena just because she's trans, because that's the only aspect they care about.
Identity politics don't explore who you are as a person, they reduce you to a label. Transgender, for example.
That's just plain untrue. If someone's reducing people to labels, it's the bigots killing Mizhena just because she's trans, because that's the only aspect they care about.
That's the only aspect her character has.
Think about it, just answered your own question. Identity politics isn't compatible with heroic fantasy because heroic fantasy is about exploring the self while identity politics is all about labels and collectivism. Conan wouldn't have been much of a story if the writer had slapped a "poor oppressed slave boy" label on him and called it good, now, would it?
As Tilly points out, no it's not. And even if it were, there are literally hundreds of characters in Infinity Engine games who just stand around having just one aspect to them. That means those characters are poorly written flat cardboard. But nobody ever makes an issue out of all those NPCs standing around, until one is trans -- THEN it's all ALERT ALERT *NOW* WE'LL CALL THE BAD WRITING CARD!!! She's being held to a different standard that no other characters are being held to.
Think about it, just answered your own question. Identity politics isn't compatible with heroic fantasy because heroic fantasy is about exploring the self while identity politics is all about labels and collectivism. Conan wouldn't have been much of a story if the writer had slapped a "poor oppressed slave boy" label on him and called it good, now, would it?
Except that's exactly what they did. Conan explored the labels of slave, of barbarian, of thief, of adventurer, of lover, of eventually king. He fell under many labels over time, and Conan is most certainly heroic fantasy.
@ Samy Yes, because he didn't let himself be defined by those labels. Once again, that's the opposite of SocJus. SocJus says that the son of a black millionaire is oppressed and will always be oppressed no matter what he accomplishes or who he becomes. Conan wasn't a victim his entire life. It says that women should be afraid of an omnipresent system that's out to get them, and if a given woman doesn't want to live in fear of a fabricated monster than she's suffering from "internalised misogyny" and her opinion doesn't count. What would Grace Jones' character from Conan the Destroyer have to say about that, do you think?
Honestly, I think people fixate on Mizhena a little too much, and by people I mean the game's supporters. The actual criticisms of the detractors are much broader than that, but it's easy to pretend that they're not because calling someone a transphobe is a pretty good silencing tactic.
@Subtledoctor That's sweet of you, but don't feel like you have to please me all the time.
As Tilly points out, no it's not. And even if it were, there are literally hundreds of characters in Infinity Engine games who just stand around having just one aspect to them. That means those characters are poorly written flat cardboard. But nobody ever makes an issue out of all those NPCs standing around, until one is trans -- THEN it's all ALERT ALERT *NOW* WE'LL CALL THE BAD WRITING CARD!!! She's being held to a different standard that no other characters are being held to.
Think about it, just answered your own question. Identity politics isn't compatible with heroic fantasy because heroic fantasy is about exploring the self while identity politics is all about labels and collectivism. Conan wouldn't have been much of a story if the writer had slapped a "poor oppressed slave boy" label on him and called it good, now, would it?
Except that's exactly what they did. Conan explored the labels of slave, of barbarian, of thief, of adventurer, of lover, of eventually king. He fell under many labels over time, and Conan is most certainly heroic fantasy.
RE Howard's Conan may be heroic fantasy, but it is not an explication of identity politics. Identity politics is about minority groups: "i.e., a group which the "majority" considers inferior, which has been historically oppressed for generations, and which, objectively, is socially rejected, economically excluded, and lacks political power." http://www.colorado.edu/Sociology/gimenez/work/heresies.html
@ Samy Yes, because he didn't let himself be defined by those labels. Once again, that's the opposite of SocJus.
And yet, the people complaining about this game have a problem when the writers *do* try to make characters deeper than just a label, as seen with Safana and Jaheira. In BG1 they were just sex kitten and naggy wife, now Amber makes them into deeper than that, pushing past their labels, and people cry bloody murder.
RE Howard's Conan may be heroic fantasy, but it is not an explication of identity politics. Identity politics is about minority groups: "i.e., a group which the "majority" considers inferior, which has been historically oppressed for generations, and which, objectively, is socially rejected, economically excluded, and lacks political power."
Lol, "slave" fits that description to a t. Conan is heroic fantasy dealing with an ex-slave.
@ Samy Yes, because he didn't let himself be defined by those labels. Once again, that's the opposite of SocJus.
And yet, the people complaining about this game have a problem when the writers *do* try to make characters deeper than just a label, as seen with Safana and Jaheira. In BG1 they were just sex kitten and naggy wife, now Amber makes them into deeper than that, pushing past their labels, and people cry bloody murder.
That's because it's pretty obvious by now that they weren't included in order to be expanded upon, but because the writing team wanted to "fix" them, to alter them in order to make them adhere to their SocJus moral standards.
Safana is an interesting case, because people often get this wrong. She is still flirtatious and sensual, and the hedonism that the writers included for her was actually done rather well. The problem is that her "upgraded personality" seems to involve also being a sarcastic pedant and distinctly unpleasant to be around. That does go against her established character, indirectly, for the reasons Beowolf said.
As for Jaheira, well, if you think was just a nagging wife in the first two games then you've got another thing coming, simple as that. She's always been one of the most popular and memorable characters in gaming and has plenty of depth even in the first game. Her relationship with Khalid is believable and positive.
But the key fact here is that we got Safana rather than, say, Branwen (who I suspect a lot more people actually used) because the writer felt Safana needed to be corrected and Branwen did not. That's distasteful to my way of thinking, I don't know about you.
Pillars of Eternity didn't deliberately go out of their way to offend their own players. I think that increases the likelihood that people are going to want to say something significantly.
On the other hand, if people are leaving reviews without having tried the game, then they absolutely should not be doing that.
My friend, neither did Beamdog when they created the great game Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear.
Minsc has a line that is directed towards Gamergaters. It has no other purpose.
I'm not a GG'er, but make no mistake, Beamdog fired shots.
I'm sorry friend but I must respectfully disagree that the line in question is meant to "fire shots" at Gamergaters.
The GG'ers seem to think so.
I don't understand why GG are allowed to be offended by things like that but they seem to be against other people making similar claims regarding social issues. Sorry if thats rude.
Because both sides are at opposite ends. Both sides want to silence each other.
I just wanted to point out that Beamdog isn't innocent in all of this. I know you disagree, but you can make an argument that Beamdog started this with that line.
I have said in many posts on this forum, that I wish Beamdog had stayed out of it. Now my favorite game series might suffer.
and you aren't rude. We are just talking.
Thank you for your thoughts friend. I think then perhaps if you and others truly believe Beamdog mis-stepped either by accident or on purpose then perhaps it is our duty as fan of Baldur's Gate to try and look past this and try and work together for the future of the series.
I really really agree on this. I'm all for voicing out opinions or criticisms, but please don't kill the franchise. Leave your honest review, negative if need be, but leave other reviews alone (particularly referring to the mass downvoting even the most reasonable reviews). This issue has been more than "voiced out," I'm sure the devs have heard it, the community has. Most likely in their next release, there won't be anything like this anymore. BUT please let there be a "next" else there won't ever be, not 5 years from now, not 10, not 20, not forever.
If you can't really stomach what you are seeing in the new content, then just drop it, then leave a negative review if you must, and let the devs learn from their mistakes, if there's any, but, again, let there be a "next." So again, can we all just stop this already?
Let's move on to review threads like that of @Purudaya (sorry forgot to copy the link); constructive criticisms I'm sure are still very very very much welcome there, other than this issue (additional discussions on the matter is no longer constructive) e.g. bugs, ugly graphics, horrible UI, lack of animation, lack of variety in combat and in items, and/or even bad writing/storyline.
Pillars of Eternity didn't deliberately go out of their way to offend their own players. I think that increases the likelihood that people are going to want to say something significantly.
On the other hand, if people are leaving reviews without having tried the game, then they absolutely should not be doing that.
My friend, neither did Beamdog when they created the great game Baldur's Gate: Siege of Dragonspear.
Minsc has a line that is directed towards Gamergaters. It has no other purpose.
I'm not a GG'er, but make no mistake, Beamdog fired shots.
I'm sorry friend but I must respectfully disagree that the line in question is meant to "fire shots" at Gamergaters.
The GG'ers seem to think so.
I don't understand why GG are allowed to be offended by things like that but they seem to be against other people making similar claims regarding social issues. Sorry if thats rude.
Because both sides are at opposite ends. Both sides want to silence each other.
I just wanted to point out that Beamdog isn't innocent in all of this. I know you disagree, but you can make an argument that Beamdog started this with that line.
I have said in many posts on this forum, that I wish Beamdog had stayed out of it. Now my favorite game series might suffer.
and you aren't rude. We are just talking.
Thank you for your thoughts friend. I think then perhaps if you and others truly believe Beamdog mis-stepped either by accident or on purpose then perhaps it is our duty as fan of Baldur's Gate to try and look past this and try and work together for the future of the series.
I really really agree on this. I'm all for voicing out opinions or criticisms, but please don't kill the franchise. Leave your honest review, negative if need be, but leave other reviews alone (particularly referring to the mass downvoting even the most reasonable reviews). This issue has been more than "voiced out," I'm sure the devs have heard it, the community has. Most likely in their next release, there won't be anything like this anymore. BUT please let there be a "next" else there won't ever be, not 5 years from now, not 10, not 20, not forever.
If you can't really stomach what you are seeing in the new content, then just drop it, then leave a negative review if you must, and let the devs learn from their mistakes, if there's any, but, again, let there be a "next." So again, can we all just stop this already?
Let's move on to review threads like that of @Purudaya (sorry forgot to copy the link); constructive criticisms I'm sure are still very very very much welcome there, other than this issue (additional discussions on the matter is no longer constructive) e.g. bugs, ugly graphics, horrible UI, lack of animation, lack of variety in combat and in items, and/or even bad writing/storyline.
I just emailed a guy on there thanking him for his thoughtful 1-star review. This issue has been beaten to death and I don't think can really be discussed constructively anymore, but there are other legitimate criticisms that I know the devs would like to hear about. That said, I'm not advocating that this thread be closed - it's a good place to consolidate the controversy and give people a place to grind their teeth without ruining everyone else's experience.
The problem with that, Illustair, is that Beamdog wanted this to happen. This isn't a lesson to learn for them, it's a deliberate... something. Maybe a ploy for publicity. Posting an incendiary interview on Kotaku on launch day while releasing the product with an insult attached to the franchise's most beloved character and then only taking to the forums and social media to add fuel to the fire is not a series of unfortunate events. It's the execution of a strategy.
If it was done out of SJW conviction, then nothing's going to change for any future releases. If it was done as a publicity stunt then they've committed themselves all the same by sacrificing that part of their audience to it, so nothing's going to change for any future releases.
They really didn't miss a trick, either. Choosing Amber Scott to give their incendiary interview is cunning, because when it generates backlash they can fall back to the "you just don't like women in gaming" schtick. A more cynical man might think they were hoping for threats, since that's worked so well for certain other people in the past.
It's all rather aggravating. In any case, there's nothing left to rally behind. Baldur's Gate is closed to people like me from now on, and that's all there is to it.
That doesn't mean I want to ruin it for anyone else, though, so I think your advice is reasonable. I haven't left a negative review anywhere because there's no need, the message is out on what they've chosen to do with the franchise and anyways who needs to be warned will be warned.
The problem with that, Illustair, is that Beamdog wanted this to happen. This isn't a lesson to learn for them, it's a deliberate... something. Maybe a ploy for publicity. Posting an incendiary interview on Kotaku on launch day while releasing the product with an insult attached to the franchise's most beloved character and then only taking to the forums and social media to add fuel to the fire is not a series of unfortunate events. It's the execution of a strategy.
Dude, I'm sorry but you find a conspiracy in everything. You should subscribe to The Blaze - you'll find a lot better company there.
Ok, many things have been said while I was sleeping, so I would like to adress certain themes that are popping out. This is going to be a long post, but it explains everything that is happening with BG fiasco.
1. Many people seem to think that downvoting on Metacritic and other sites has very little to do with SJW/anti-SJW politics. To these people I have to say they are wrong. There are just too many reviews happening, for this to be about game issues. Batman: Arkham Knight - a tripple A game with massive marketing that was so plagued with bugs that it was pulled from the shelves currently sits at 522 user reviews - 409 of which are negative - and that game was released almost a year ago. BG SoD has in 3 days produced over 230 reviews already and I've went through most of them. Around 50% mentions SJW political agenda in some form or the other. So you cannot tell me that politics have very little to do with it. The worst thing is, when the political climate is so toxic (and you cannot tell me its not with numbers like that), you cannot be sure that even the negative reviews that talk about bugs/game issues are not the product of this political war and are just masquarading as people who genuinly disliked the game based on those issues.
2. Many people here - including the developers - are pushing the narrative that this is an organized effort by Gamergate to downvote the game because of 1 transgender character. Here is a screenshot: http://archive.is/tlJCs#selection-3595.0-3611.112
This is a typical SJW divisive tactic that Baldur's Gate does not need at this moment, and needless to say it is a blatant lie. Not only is there no evidence that Gamergate is behind it - there is no link to Gamergate boards on their social media, there is no outcry by our most prominent members - but what's even more condemning, Sargon of Akkad (fan of the original BG) who many GGers follow and who is one of our biggest supporters just made a video playing the game and seems completely clueless about the whole debate that is happening. If there was anyone who has any ties with GG and would know about such a campaign its him. He even concludes the playthrough as not bad and likes what he has seen so far: https://youtu.be/UV2DbwjJzLo?t=2h13m33s Skip to 2h13m33s
That this sort of SJW sophist rethoric is coming from the developers themselves is quite frankly sickening and is only dividing the community even deeper. The developers need to step down from their high horse and talk to us as people - not throw around baseless accusations. Trust me, you dont want Gamergate organized campaign on your back. If we wanted to destroy this game, would do something much more effective and you would know about it.
Also, don't pretend this is about 1 transgender character. That is such a straweman it makes me want to vomit just for being so sleazy. I mean, we know for a fact that Beamdog took a jab at Gamergate with Minsc. We have an interview from Kotaku where Amber Scott says the original game was sexist and needed of change. We have a post by Amber Scott where she says she doesnt care about criticism and is proud to be a SJW. We have the developers firing shots at Gamergate while spinning the narrative with misinformation to Jezbel and Femfreq of all places (http://archive.is/tlJCs#selection-3595.0-3611.112). If you dont know who Jezbel and Femfreq are - they are the most radical feminists you will ever see. Just associating with Anita Sarkeesian who is probably one of the most hated and controversial personalities in the whole gaming history (for justified reasons) will make some who are not even part of GG angry. So, how can you sit there and lie this is about 1 transgender character? It goes much deeper than that and you know it.
3. I know many people are still not aware of the culture war that has been happening in the last 10-15 years, but it is happenin and it is escalating out of control. In just last 3 years we have had Anita Sarkeesian from FemFreqency with her incredibly bad videos and gamers opposing her for her demoniziation of gaming culture, we've had MetalGate in the music industry, we've had Elevetorgate and Atheism+ division in the Atheist community, we've had the division on the political left between the reggressives and true liberals, we've had Gamergate in the gaming industry, we've had the division on universities between professors who think universities should be safe spaces for students and professors who think universities should be places of learning. I could go on, but this should be enough to prove that there is a crisis and war of ideas happening on all fronts as we speak, and there is 1 common thing that lies at the root of this cultural war. Basically, you have social justice warrior types whose idea of "equal" rights intails ideas of gender/racial quotas, hijacking art/journalism/universities/media and using it to promote their agenda, banning discussions and controlling the narrative by propaganda, labeling people as racist and other dishonest methods. On the other side of the fence you have people who oppose these people because they see them as radicals. The only reason I still have not given up hope for Beamdog is because they haven't banned this discussion.... yet! Once they do that... they have fallen to the dark side as far as I am concerned.
Now, I know it is hard to wrap your head around the idea how can anyone who promotes "equal" rights be a radical, but basically the problem lies in their methods - not necessarily their goals. Take for example gender/race quotas. SJWs believe that women/blacks/other minorities are disadvantaged due to sexism, racism, homophobia and they want every university, movie, game,... to have a certain percentage of representatives from those minorities. People who oppose this idea oppose it because they believe race/gender/sex orientation should not play any role in deciding the percentage of representatives. They believe skill, merit and equal opportunites should be the determining factor. Now, regardless of what you personally believe about this particular matter, there is no problem here as long as we can have a civilized debate about it. Unfortunately, SJWs label anyone who disagrees with them (even for non-sexist/non-racist reasons) a bigot of some sorts and they use media to demonize any group who opposes them. This has led to division on so many fronts and is a huge problem everywhere at the moment.
HOW DOES THIS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH BALDUR'S GATE?! Well, since this war has been happening on so many fronts and with a very recognizable SJW theme, people have noticed these themes appearing in Baldur's Gate SoD. From the interviews, from hijacking certain characters so they can throw jabs at their opponents, from forceful "in your face" implementation of transgender character just for political reasons, to labeling their opposition racist small minded sexist Gamergaters without a shred of evidence and virtue signaling this misinformation to the most radical feminist groups possible out of all places.
And again, you may believe whatever you want about these political issues. Nobody really cares. But when you use a beloved franchise to score political points, you insult your audience, you lie about them, you spread misinformation without a shred of evidence to people you know gamers dislike and without a shred of evidence, when you openly say you dont care about criticism and want to push SJW agenda into gaming, why is it a surprise that there is a backlash? This is exactly the same as when the game journalists attacked their audience, the audience responded, and then these same journalists screamed harrasment of women, help!
4. Freedom of speech counterargument - Ok... so there are people on these forums, mostly SJWs who seem to think that people coming here and responding to attacks from Beamdog is harrasment. One person here seems to think that expressing our disagreement with how Beamdog has treated a huge part of BG community equals to quote "coming to a bar, disagreeing with owner and then throwing around chairs and tables, completely wrecking the place in the process."
I am sorry to burst yor bubble, but that is a horrible analogy. We are not throwing chairs, we are not hurting anyone, we are just telling you what we think and feel about their treatment. We are not breaking any laws, we are polite and willing to talk to anyone and we love Baldur's Gate. If you dont see the difference between this and abusing someone by throwing chairs around,... I am sorry, but you need help.
5. A Beamdog developer (Dee) said Gamergate is attacking them for expressing their political views. Again, there is no evidence of an organized attack. This is just his assumption, but I will say that I disagree with people downvoting the game and trying to hurt the company for their political opinions. Again, there is no evidence that this is a campaign by Gamergate. Many people have a problem with SJWs and people are more than capable of acting on their own. Please stop being divisive and talk to us if you have any questions or misunderstandings.
6. Someone said that people who come here to express their disagreement are just trying to censor the developer. Let me be perfectly clear! I am from GG and I do not want them to censor their game. I want them to talk to us, to understand why they fired shots at us and to understand what do they think they will accomplish by these tactics. I want them to stop with political activism, because it is hurting our beloved game. And when I say that I want them to stop with political activism, I do not mean it in an authoritarian way, but through mutual understanding and discussion - before this escalates into a full blown Gamergate 2! Since when does trying to prevent a war equal to trying to silence the developer?
They are within their rights to be politically active, but political activism needs to be done in a dialog with people you consider your opponents. There needs to be willingness to talk and listen. There needs to be a modecum of respect. Unfortunately, Beamdog has thus far conducted their political activism in an aggressive way, trying to spin the narrative of victimhood and all the while firing shots at their own audience. Yes they have the right to be dicks, but this will just attract more radicals and then you will have GamerGate 2 happening right in your own game. Do not open the door to that beast. I beg you! You will destroy everything you wanted to build... but that is the price of freedom of speech I guess. You can decide on your own, Beamdog, in which direction you want to push your game into.
7. Finally, I disagree with anyone who is downvoting the game for political reasons. This is a kin to blackmail where you are trying to punish someone for having different political views than their own. I hope not many GGers are doing it. If you are, please stop, because remember - not so long ago SJWs were doing the same thing to us and we didn't like it. We have to lead by example and if we behave as SJWs, well.. then we are no better than them. Express your disagreement on forums, make youtube channels, discuss, but dont try to ruin someone's livelihood for your own political agenda.
I hope after this post we can all calm down a bit and have a constructive discussion about it, because whether you like it or not, the SJW war has come to Baldur's Gate and we need this game to bring us together - not tear us apart.
Let me just say that I have no problem with the existence of a trans character, although I think that such a character should have simply strapped on a belt of masculinity/femininity and lived happily ever after. I think that Mizhena's character would have felt less artificial if Mizhena had used such a magic trinket in the past and did not immediately let charname know. Once Mizhena had been travelling in the party for a while and befriended charname, then perhaps Mizhena should have confided in charname. Charname should have then had the option to reject or accept Mizhena.
I did rate this game poorly because of what I saw as SJW pandering, but this honestly had nothing to do with Mizhena. The SJW pandering that annoyed me was how they changed the personalities of existing characters! It's perfectly OK to add new characters, but to change existing characters to fit some political agenda is hard for me to look past.
The problem with that, Illustair, is that Beamdog wanted this to happen. This isn't a lesson to learn for them, it's a deliberate... something. Maybe a ploy for publicity. Posting an incendiary interview on Kotaku on launch day while releasing the product with an insult attached to the franchise's most beloved character and then only taking to the forums and social media to add fuel to the fire is not a series of unfortunate events. It's the execution of a strategy.
Dude, I'm sorry but you find a conspiracy in everything. You should subscribe to The Blaze - you'll find a lot better company there.
You thought me believing Amber Scott when she said she put Social Justice into her writing was a conspiracy theory, so forgive me if I won't check my head for tin foil just yet.
Is anything that I said wrong? Isn't Kotaku the most aggravating possible choice of publication? Doesn't that interview include multiple things likely to upset people? Did Beamdog employees go on social media to say critics "weren't real fans" and thereby add fuel to the fire? Didn't Trent Oster post to condemn the opposition and solicit positive reviews, thereby inciting further comment from his critics?
They do all of that to add to the controversy and... nothing whatsoever... to attempt to calm it, and you don't think they planned it all along? Do you think when they added that line to Minsc they were saying to each other that this'll make GamerGaters really kick back and enjoy the game?
Conspiracy? Yeah, right. Stating the bleeding obvious is more like it.
The problem with that, Illustair, is that Beamdog wanted this to happen. This isn't a lesson to learn for them, it's a deliberate... something. Maybe a ploy for publicity. Posting an incendiary interview on Kotaku on launch day while releasing the product with an insult attached to the franchise's most beloved character and then only taking to the forums and social media to add fuel to the fire is not a series of unfortunate events. It's the execution of a strategy.
Dude, I'm sorry but you find a conspiracy in everything. You should subscribe to The Blaze - you'll find a lot better company there.
You thought me believing Amber Scott when she said she put Social Justice into her writing was a conspiracy theory, so forgive me if I won't check my head for tin foil just yet.
Is anything that I said wrong? Isn't Kotaku the most aggravating possible choice of publication? Doesn't that interview include multiple things likely to upset people? Did Beamdog employees go on social media to say critics "weren't real fans" and thereby add fuel to the fire? Didn't Trent Oster post to condemn the opposition and solicit positive reviews, thereby inciting further comment from his critics?
They do all of that to add to the controversy and... nothing whatsoever... to attempt to calm it, and you don't think they planned it all along? Do you think when they added that line to Minsc they were saying to each other that this'll make GamerGaters really kick back and enjoy the game?
Conspiracy? Yeah, right. Stating the bleeding obvious is more like it.
Making (in your view) bad PR choices =/= a conspiracy to make this happen deliberately for some nefarious purpose. You don't always have to connect the dots...sometimes they're just dots.
I actually had written a lot of stuff about how I feel about this whole issue, but seeing by how people are doing flame wars, I discouraged myself to express how I feel in fear that someone would be butthurt about my opinion being different.
Anyways... I am one of the people who didn't buy this game and also will not buy it.
I bought the Enhanced Editions and many times I felt that the extra new dialogues and quests were rushed and too plain... I've seen other reviewers say the same and, frankly, I don't see why I should give DragonSpear a try...
This transgender discussion is crazy. Who cares about one line of dialogue when a lot of reviewers are saying the problem is NOT one line of dialogue, but instead the many bugs encountered so far (fixable) and subpar writing (unfixable)
Comments
When I was young and tough I took pleasure in besting Sharteel and tagging her along - always hoping I could save her from her man hate as she was no doubt abused by huge male orcs in some terrible slave pit. But Safana was the lady you got to stroke your ego and make you think you were cool. Now she is more like Sharteel then Safana - why not just then leave her out and give us a Sharteel Dual classed to a thief we find at our Duke Palace meet up- if we had the original Sharteel should could vanish at the end of the Intro and come back again as a New Ftr/Thief - or better yet an overpowered Fighter/ Assian with some trap/lockpick binded on character ring to compensate for the low level assassin thief skills. She could talk massive smack and hate on my male Fighter and then set things up for a terrible violent tryst that would make the Dorn nasty reaction look like a happy party. I would feel great guilt and disgust and delete the game from my computer - after of course the ultimate finish of the encounter -and get some counseling with my cleric about it.
The game designers have wrecked everything I cried so hard I drove myself to a strange dance place last night so I could feel the love - NOT I hate those sad places. Overall the Game was well done... but in the future it would please me - and a lot of other fat older guys - if Beamdog made the ladies more male pleasure seeking - maybe Jaheera could spawn Druid Berry sandwiches next time and take them out of the cleft of her jerkin. (I AM KIDDING DON'T PUT THAT IN!)
A Baldur's Gate game is not an appropriate venue for the promotion of identity politics, in my opinion. I think it undermines the game as much as bitterness and cynicism would undermine a romantic comedy.
People are entitled to disagree with that, and they're certainly entitled to write pieces promoting identity politics. I just wish this hadn't been one of 'em.
It makes the mind boggle to see their lack of self-realization, when you consider what would happen if Beamdog had instead cast an anti-abortion Cleric, and the only response options were in support of this viewpoint?
I am fully certain that the result would have been very different from the Social Justice crowd here, but it would have inevitably had a very similar, and likely greater effect on Beamdog's Metacritic score when their self-righteous wrath was unleashed.
You know, I actually agree that rating a game very low because of a single political/social issue is wrong, not that I think it's actually a single issue. But don't pretend that this is something SJWs don't do to games containing even a small amount of material they don't like.
Does anyone not remember an infamous limerick that was removed for being 'trans-phobic', under threat of boycott? Games developed by female game developers, who are then called sexist? How about the multiple women who have been covered up and censored by these very same moralizing myopics?
In this instance, it's not even a single issue, as they would like it to appear. It's multiple issues: C+ level writing, voice acting, bugs, mood, pacing. Sure, that doesn't deserve a 0/10. It certainly doesn't deserve high praise, either.
I played through the starting dungeon and the first few quests outside it, and the only thing that is being promoted, is BG-style adventuring!
So relax, and don't take one or two lines out of a 25 hour expansion, out of proportion.
Now I gotta get back to the game... )
Whether or not an artistic creation comes off as "artificial", or anything else, is up to the viewer/consumer. One person's "artificial" will be another person's "good try", another person's "Love this!!!!" and/or another person's "this sucks".
The creator creates, the viewer/listener/consumer reacts. Neither can dictate to the other, really, or it ceases to be an artistic creation. Unless the creator *chooses* to have their work be collaborative with the audience, of course. But that is very, very uncommon in my experience.
If both of us agree, then who are you to say we're wrong? I've given multiple examples and it's still the same old story. People even say it's a conspiracy theory to think that Amber Scott was telling the truth, and confirmation bias to recognise what she did in the material.
Why's it so hard to accept when Beamdog's so eager to admit it?
Think about it, just answered your own question. Identity politics isn't compatible with heroic fantasy because heroic fantasy is about exploring the self while identity politics is all about labels and collectivism. Conan wouldn't have been much of a story if the writer had slapped a "poor oppressed slave boy" label on him and called it good, now, would it?
Honestly, I think people fixate on Mizhena a little too much, and by people I mean the game's supporters. The actual criticisms of the detractors are much broader than that, but it's easy to pretend that they're not because calling someone a transphobe is a pretty good silencing tactic.
@Subtledoctor That's sweet of you, but don't feel like you have to please me all the time.
Identity politics is about minority groups: "i.e., a group which the "majority" considers inferior, which has been historically oppressed for generations, and which, objectively, is socially rejected, economically excluded, and lacks political power."
http://www.colorado.edu/Sociology/gimenez/work/heresies.html
Safana is an interesting case, because people often get this wrong. She is still flirtatious and sensual, and the hedonism that the writers included for her was actually done rather well. The problem is that her "upgraded personality" seems to involve also being a sarcastic pedant and distinctly unpleasant to be around. That does go against her established character, indirectly, for the reasons Beowolf said.
As for Jaheira, well, if you think was just a nagging wife in the first two games then you've got another thing coming, simple as that. She's always been one of the most popular and memorable characters in gaming and has plenty of depth even in the first game. Her relationship with Khalid is believable and positive.
But the key fact here is that we got Safana rather than, say, Branwen (who I suspect a lot more people actually used) because the writer felt Safana needed to be corrected and Branwen did not. That's distasteful to my way of thinking, I don't know about you.
If you can't really stomach what you are seeing in the new content, then just drop it, then leave a negative review if you must, and let the devs learn from their mistakes, if there's any, but, again, let there be a "next." So again, can we all just stop this already?
Let's move on to review threads like that of @Purudaya (sorry forgot to copy the link); constructive criticisms I'm sure are still very very very much welcome there, other than this issue (additional discussions on the matter is no longer constructive) e.g. bugs, ugly graphics, horrible UI, lack of animation, lack of variety in combat and in items, and/or even bad writing/storyline.
If it was done out of SJW conviction, then nothing's going to change for any future releases. If it was done as a publicity stunt then they've committed themselves all the same by sacrificing that part of their audience to it, so nothing's going to change for any future releases.
They really didn't miss a trick, either. Choosing Amber Scott to give their incendiary interview is cunning, because when it generates backlash they can fall back to the "you just don't like women in gaming" schtick. A more cynical man might think they were hoping for threats, since that's worked so well for certain other people in the past.
It's all rather aggravating. In any case, there's nothing left to rally behind. Baldur's Gate is closed to people like me from now on, and that's all there is to it.
That doesn't mean I want to ruin it for anyone else, though, so I think your advice is reasonable. I haven't left a negative review anywhere because there's no need, the message is out on what they've chosen to do with the franchise and anyways who needs to be warned will be warned.
1. Many people seem to think that downvoting on Metacritic and other sites has very little to do with SJW/anti-SJW politics. To these people I have to say they are wrong. There are just too many reviews happening, for this to be about game issues. Batman: Arkham Knight - a tripple A game with massive marketing that was so plagued with bugs that it was pulled from the shelves currently sits at 522 user reviews - 409 of which are negative - and that game was released almost a year ago. BG SoD has in 3 days produced over 230 reviews already and I've went through most of them. Around 50% mentions SJW political agenda in some form or the other. So you cannot tell me that politics have very little to do with it. The worst thing is, when the political climate is so toxic (and you cannot tell me its not with numbers like that), you cannot be sure that even the negative reviews that talk about bugs/game issues are not the product of this political war and are just masquarading as people who genuinly disliked the game based on those issues.
2. Many people here - including the developers - are pushing the narrative that this is an organized effort by Gamergate to downvote the game because of 1 transgender character. Here is a screenshot: http://archive.is/tlJCs#selection-3595.0-3611.112
This is a typical SJW divisive tactic that Baldur's Gate does not need at this moment, and needless to say it is a blatant lie. Not only is there no evidence that Gamergate is behind it - there is no link to Gamergate boards on their social media, there is no outcry by our most prominent members - but what's even more condemning, Sargon of Akkad (fan of the original BG) who many GGers follow and who is one of our biggest supporters just made a video playing the game and seems completely clueless about the whole debate that is happening. If there was anyone who has any ties with GG and would know about such a campaign its him. He even concludes the playthrough as not bad and likes what he has seen so far:
Skip to 2h13m33s
That this sort of SJW sophist rethoric is coming from the developers themselves is quite frankly sickening and is only dividing the community even deeper. The developers need to step down from their high horse and talk to us as people - not throw around baseless accusations. Trust me, you dont want Gamergate organized campaign on your back. If we wanted to destroy this game, would do something much more effective and you would know about it.
Also, don't pretend this is about 1 transgender character. That is such a straweman it makes me want to vomit just for being so sleazy. I mean, we know for a fact that Beamdog took a jab at Gamergate with Minsc. We have an interview from Kotaku where Amber Scott says the original game was sexist and needed of change. We have a post by Amber Scott where she says she doesnt care about criticism and is proud to be a SJW. We have the developers firing shots at Gamergate while spinning the narrative with misinformation to Jezbel and Femfreq of all places (http://archive.is/tlJCs#selection-3595.0-3611.112). If you dont know who Jezbel and Femfreq are - they are the most radical feminists you will ever see. Just associating with Anita Sarkeesian who is probably one of the most hated and controversial personalities in the whole gaming history (for justified reasons) will make some who are not even part of GG angry. So, how can you sit there and lie this is about 1 transgender character? It goes much deeper than that and you know it.
3. I know many people are still not aware of the culture war that has been happening in the last 10-15 years, but it is happenin and it is escalating out of control. In just last 3 years we have had Anita Sarkeesian from FemFreqency with her incredibly bad videos and gamers opposing her for her demoniziation of gaming culture, we've had MetalGate in the music industry, we've had Elevetorgate and Atheism+ division in the Atheist community, we've had the division on the political left between the reggressives and true liberals, we've had Gamergate in the gaming industry, we've had the division on universities between professors who think universities should be safe spaces for students and professors who think universities should be places of learning. I could go on, but this should be enough to prove that there is a crisis and war of ideas happening on all fronts as we speak, and there is 1 common thing that lies at the root of this cultural war. Basically, you have social justice warrior types whose idea of "equal" rights intails ideas of gender/racial quotas, hijacking art/journalism/universities/media and using it to promote their agenda, banning discussions and controlling the narrative by propaganda, labeling people as racist and other dishonest methods. On the other side of the fence you have people who oppose these people because they see them as radicals. The only reason I still have not given up hope for Beamdog is because they haven't banned this discussion.... yet! Once they do that... they have fallen to the dark side as far as I am concerned.
Now, I know it is hard to wrap your head around the idea how can anyone who promotes "equal" rights be a radical, but basically the problem lies in their methods - not necessarily their goals. Take for example gender/race quotas. SJWs believe that women/blacks/other minorities are disadvantaged due to sexism, racism, homophobia and they want every university, movie, game,... to have a certain percentage of representatives from those minorities. People who oppose this idea oppose it because they believe race/gender/sex orientation should not play any role in deciding the percentage of representatives. They believe skill, merit and equal opportunites should be the determining factor. Now, regardless of what you personally believe about this particular matter, there is no problem here as long as we can have a civilized debate about it. Unfortunately, SJWs label anyone who disagrees with them (even for non-sexist/non-racist reasons) a bigot of some sorts and they use media to demonize any group who opposes them. This has led to division on so many fronts and is a huge problem everywhere at the moment.
HOW DOES THIS HAVE ANYTHING TO DO WITH BALDUR'S GATE?!
Well, since this war has been happening on so many fronts and with a very recognizable SJW theme, people have noticed these themes appearing in Baldur's Gate SoD. From the interviews, from hijacking certain characters so they can throw jabs at their opponents, from forceful "in your face" implementation of transgender character just for political reasons, to labeling their opposition racist small minded sexist Gamergaters without a shred of evidence and virtue signaling this misinformation to the most radical feminist groups possible out of all places.
And again, you may believe whatever you want about these political issues. Nobody really cares. But when you use a beloved franchise to score political points, you insult your audience, you lie about them, you spread misinformation without a shred of evidence to people you know gamers dislike and without a shred of evidence, when you openly say you dont care about criticism and want to push SJW agenda into gaming, why is it a surprise that there is a backlash? This is exactly the same as when the game journalists attacked their audience, the audience responded, and then these same journalists screamed harrasment of women, help!
4. Freedom of speech counterargument - Ok... so there are people on these forums, mostly SJWs who seem to think that people coming here and responding to attacks from Beamdog is harrasment. One person here seems to think that expressing our disagreement with how Beamdog has treated a huge part of BG community equals to quote "coming to a bar, disagreeing with owner and then throwing around chairs and tables, completely wrecking the place in the process."
I am sorry to burst yor bubble, but that is a horrible analogy. We are not throwing chairs, we are not hurting anyone, we are just telling you what we think and feel about their treatment. We are not breaking any laws, we are polite and willing to talk to anyone and we love Baldur's Gate. If you dont see the difference between this and abusing someone by throwing chairs around,... I am sorry, but you need help.
5. A Beamdog developer (Dee) said Gamergate is attacking them for expressing their political views. Again, there is no evidence of an organized attack. This is just his assumption, but I will say that I disagree with people downvoting the game and trying to hurt the company for their political opinions. Again, there is no evidence that this is a campaign by Gamergate. Many people have a problem with SJWs and people are more than capable of acting on their own. Please stop being divisive and talk to us if you have any questions or misunderstandings.
6. Someone said that people who come here to express their disagreement are just trying to censor the developer. Let me be perfectly clear! I am from GG and I do not want them to censor their game. I want them to talk to us, to understand why they fired shots at us and to understand what do they think they will accomplish by these tactics. I want them to stop with political activism, because it is hurting our beloved game. And when I say that I want them to stop with political activism, I do not mean it in an authoritarian way, but through mutual understanding and discussion - before this escalates into a full blown Gamergate 2! Since when does trying to prevent a war equal to trying to silence the developer?
They are within their rights to be politically active, but political activism needs to be done in a dialog with people you consider your opponents. There needs to be willingness to talk and listen. There needs to be a modecum of respect. Unfortunately, Beamdog has thus far conducted their political activism in an aggressive way, trying to spin the narrative of victimhood and all the while firing shots at their own audience. Yes they have the right to be dicks, but this will just attract more radicals and then you will have GamerGate 2 happening right in your own game. Do not open the door to that beast. I beg you! You will destroy everything you wanted to build... but that is the price of freedom of speech I guess. You can decide on your own, Beamdog, in which direction you want to push your game into.
7. Finally, I disagree with anyone who is downvoting the game for political reasons. This is a kin to blackmail where you are trying to punish someone for having different political views than their own. I hope not many GGers are doing it. If you are, please stop, because remember - not so long ago SJWs were doing the same thing to us and we didn't like it. We have to lead by example and if we behave as SJWs, well.. then we are no better than them. Express your disagreement on forums, make youtube channels, discuss, but dont try to ruin someone's livelihood for your own political agenda.
I hope after this post we can all calm down a bit and have a constructive discussion about it, because whether you like it or not, the SJW war has come to Baldur's Gate and we need this game to bring us together - not tear us apart.
I did rate this game poorly because of what I saw as SJW pandering, but this honestly had nothing to do with Mizhena. The SJW pandering that annoyed me was how they changed the personalities of existing characters! It's perfectly OK to add new characters, but to change existing characters to fit some political agenda is hard for me to look past.
Is anything that I said wrong? Isn't Kotaku the most aggravating possible choice of publication? Doesn't that interview include multiple things likely to upset people? Did Beamdog employees go on social media to say critics "weren't real fans" and thereby add fuel to the fire? Didn't Trent Oster post to condemn the opposition and solicit positive reviews, thereby inciting further comment from his critics?
They do all of that to add to the controversy and... nothing whatsoever... to attempt to calm it, and you don't think they planned it all along? Do you think when they added that line to Minsc they were saying to each other that this'll make GamerGaters really kick back and enjoy the game?
Conspiracy? Yeah, right. Stating the bleeding obvious is more like it.
Anyways... I am one of the people who didn't buy this game and also will not buy it.
I bought the Enhanced Editions and many times I felt that the extra new dialogues and quests were rushed and too plain... I've seen other reviewers say the same and, frankly, I don't see why I should give DragonSpear a try...
This transgender discussion is crazy. Who cares about one line of dialogue when a lot of reviewers are saying the problem is NOT one line of dialogue, but instead the many bugs encountered so far (fixable) and subpar writing (unfixable)