Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

Dark Dreams of Furiae - a new module for NWN:EE! Buy now
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

User Ratings on Metacritic (*SPOILERS*)

1262729313235

Comments

  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    UltraB00n said:

    UltraB00n said:

    athak said:

    there's little point in discussing transgender issues in a RPG game forum.

    There's also little point in discussing transgender issues in a fantasy RPG.
    I respectfully disagree friend, it seems like the perfect place. So many mysterious and wonderful things occur in the Realms after all.
    OK, but also make sure to include a Dwarf who lectures me on the plight of the Palestinians and a student at Radryn's Mage Academy who shares information on campus rape culture.

    Oh, wait, maybe I shouldn't give them ideas...

    If the dwarf was concerned about the plight of Cormyrans(?) and the student at the Mage Academy was fighing for the rights of female students in a male dominated magic school then that would be fine surely? Looking forward to your thoughts friend.

  • UltraB00nUltraB00n Member Posts: 37
    edited April 2016
    Ammar said:

    Well, at least the last few posts nicely disprove the claim that this has nothing to do with transphobia.

    It doesn't. I would have had no problems with a NPC who is member of some religious organisation and struggles with the strictures imposed on gender identity or sexuality. Maybe make it a little quest that this person is blackmailed because of it and give the player some agency, i.e. help her deal with the blackmail situation, inform her superiors about her "deviancy" or maybe help her to leave the cult and find a more accepting spiritual home elsewhere...

    Something like that. Something that fits into the context of the world and is actually interesting. Instead, we get something that's essentially just a beacon for odious SocJus virtue signalling spouting a paragraph of text at you that reads like a Tumblr blog post so that the writers can pat themselves on the head for upping the diversity quota. It just comes across as preachy and obnoxious and I find it patronizing. That's what's pissing me off about this character.




    atakdog
  • UltraB00nUltraB00n Member Posts: 37
    edited April 2016

    If the dwarf was concerned about the plight of Cormyrans(?) and the student at the Mage Academy was fighing for the rights of female students in a male dominated magic school then that would be fine surely? Looking forward to your thoughts friend.

    Sure, if it was handled in a context-sensitive manner and written well enough to not hit me over the head with the personal politics of the writer. No problem. If the game gave me agency to respond to this in several ways, then fine.

    But don't give me some preachy lecture on what it means to be trans and then force me to respond to it in a positive manner.

  • KrotosKrotos Member Posts: 156
    edited April 2016
    Enough! For Mystra's sake, you guys sound more incoherent than the madmen held in Spellhold!

    You made it very clear you don't like the game, the writing or anything that has to do with Beamdog's work. Good, people understand that. What nobody, who frequents this forum on a regular basis, understands is your need to spew your political views out on an RPG forum. That's something nobody cares about here. You've done the damage, you shared your views and you were listened to.

    Having said that, please stop festering the forum with this SJW vs GG heresy. You brought enough dirt to our relatively calm community and I'm sure many people here would agree with me that any further discussion is not only pointless, but more poisonous than the toxins brewed by the Drow.

    Keep in mind I am IMPLORING you to stop this discussion, not telling you to get out. I love this game, because it's essentially my childhood and you're doing everything in your power to leave as many people with sour taste in their mouths as possible. I cannot stand by and watch as you do that. It leaves me saddened just like Minsc whenever he thinks of Dynaheir.

    May Mystra's stars guide you in your future endeavours as long as you respect each other and strive to be good people.

  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    UltraB00n said:

    If the dwarf was concerned about the plight of Cormyrans(?) and the student at the Mage Academy was fighing for the rights of female students in a male dominated magic school then that would be fine surely? Looking forward to your thoughts friend.

    But don't give me some preachy lecture on what it means to be trans and then force me to respond to it in a positive manner.

    It's a good thing friend that this did not occur in the game then!

    Krotosmzacharyjoluv
  • UltraB00nUltraB00n Member Posts: 37
    Krotos said:

    it's essentially my childhood and you're doing everything in your power to leave as many people with sour taste in their mouths as possible.

    That's how I feel about writer(s) dragging their personal politics into Baldur's Gate, which was an important part of my childhood as well. I find it insulting and disrespectful that they would abuse it as an attack vector for identity politics.
    What nobody, who frequents this forum on a regular basis, understands is your need to spew your political views out on an RPG forum.
    What many people who play video games on a regular basis don't understand is the need to spew political views in video games.

    Baeloth_JnrAureolatakdog
  • skeptik_59skeptik_59 Member Posts: 38
    UltraB00n said:

    Krotos said:

    it's essentially my childhood and you're doing everything in your power to leave as many people with sour taste in their mouths as possible.

    That's how I feel about writer(s) dragging their personal politics into Baldur's Gate, which was an important part of my childhood as well. I find it insulting and disrespectful that they would abuse it as an attack vector for identity politics.
    What nobody, who frequents this forum on a regular basis, understands is your need to spew your political views out on an RPG forum.
    What many people who play video games on a regular basis don't understand is the need to spew political views in video games.



    I would suggest that it wasn't a *need* to address the Trans Cleric issue, rather it was a *desire* to do so. Surely creative artists have the right to write what they wish to write, and to cover the topics that they wish to cover?

    Or would you seek to have someone else's opinions, other than the writer's own, determine what they can write about? I ask because I'm curious.

    Nomphosumus
  • DillicDillic Member Posts: 16
    Writers can do whatever they like with their product.

    The customers can critique however they like in turn.

    A nice warning on the box: "contains far more identity politics than previous titles and is unapologetic about it", probably would have helped here, as people would have known what they were in for and avoided it if they didn't like such.

    Ratcliff
  • inethineth Member Posts: 623

    This just in! Andrew Foley has gone on the record stating that goblins are people!

    Damn this kinda makes me feel bad about my party's actions in Icewind Dale... ;)

    prem0nition
  • Sids1188Sids1188 Member Posts: 165
    edited April 2016
    Dillic said:

    Writers can do whatever they like with their product.

    The customers can critique however they like in turn.

    Indeed they can. And if those customers are being honest, they should give a review based on what they thought of the product as a whole, rather than basing it on a PR circus (outside the game itself) around 2 lines of dialog. To do other wise would be dishonest and misleading to other customers (yes, it harms other customers through misinformation as well as the game developers themselves). If they haven't played the game at all and have nothing but heresay to go on, they shouldn't review it at all.
    Dillic said:

    A nice warning on the box: "contains far more identity politics than previous titles and is unapologetic about it", probably would have helped here, as people would have known what they were in for and avoided it if they didn't like such.

    First of all "far more" in this case is about 2 lines. Let's keep this in proportion.

    And why would every minor thing need a warning label. Are people really that sensitive. Were you insisting that the original game needed a warning that "this game contains gods, temples and religions that may or may not be the same as yours, and they are treated as real things" or "this game contains women who don't live in the kitchen". Of course not. People are able to see things they disagree with without freaking out about it. At least most can.

    IllustairNomphosumusSamyGozeta
  • DillicDillic Member Posts: 16
    There's actually a heap of identity politics in the game. The trans character is but a small blip (which if written well and wasn't just diversity +2, you'd find a good portion of people not caring).

    Pretty much the entire city part before going off on your quest is lecturing you on the merits of wealth and material redistribution, mixed in with the issue of police brutality and refugees running amok. That's not a coincidence that it's in the game. Socialism 101.

    Female NPCs pretty much hit modern feminism 101 in writing. That's not a coincidence. The archer is a strong female single mother that's gay. The dwarf along with Viconia is simply there to get other NPCs to say that "she belongs to no one". Viconia and Dynaheir talk on the merits of racism, as does the goblin (who is also racist herself); you can't talk to them about it, so you're lectured. It's all done shallowly and taken straight from modern day identity politics.

    Definitely worthy of a "warning", especially if people were expecting it to be like BG1/2 where there was propaganda included.

    atakdog
  • DillicDillic Member Posts: 16
    Continuing:

    people leaving 0s because of a trans are the same as the people leaving 10s.

    Yes, people should be fair in their reviews, but if one thing bothers them so much, then that one thing bothers them so much, and you can't expect them to overlook it. Silly? Perhaps.

    If the game is good outside of that one thing, then it'll show on its own in time. I bet most people are willing to overlook one thing if the rest is worthwhile.

    Ratcliff
  • HalfwiseHalfwise Member Posts: 78
    edited April 2016
    @Dillic "Definitely worthy of a "warning", especially if people were expecting it to be like BG1/2 where there was propaganda included. "

    This sounds an awful lot like trigger warnings. A notion that I find incredibly silly, and feel that it babies people. Yet another way for people to try and separate themselves from conflicting viewpoints and travel deeper in their bubble of "Everybody thinks I'm right."

  • HalfwiseHalfwise Member Posts: 78
    edited April 2016
    @BGLover

    concerted: jointly arranged, planned, or carried out; coordinated.

    I don't like the review bombing going on, but concerted is not the right word. This is not a planned attack on SoD. It is a mob reaction of anger, even if it was uninformed.

    That is the nature of the internet. There are *millions* of people that use it daily. Each one has almost equal potential to view and react to content. Each has almost equal potential to make their voices heard through social media. They tend to gather with like-minded individuals who will react the same way as they would.

    So yes, you may have 100+ people downvoting your game out of anger, but that's roughly 0.01% of the population. 100 just sounds loud when its in your face like that, but its a drop in the bucket of every internet user, of every gamer... hell, of every gamergater even.

    I highly doubt there was planned discussion on how to "bring down that BG expansion" in the dark corners of the internet.

    Something happened. Someone saw it, and brought that thing back to their group and said "This is what happened. This is how I'm reacting." Because the group was similar, some of them went "What? Really? This is how we are reacting too!".

  • BGLoverBGLover Member Posts: 549
    @Halfwise

    I don't disagree with your analysis. But a google of 'concerted' also brings up joint, united, jointly planned, coordinated, collaborative, collective, combined, cooperative.

    And I think some of those synonyms could easily be applied to what has been happening over the last few days.

  • BGLoverBGLover Member Posts: 549
    And if people really think lots of these 0 out of 10 reviews from self proclaimed BG lovers are all about the poor writing....

    In my current no-reload run of BGEE I broke into a womans house in the middle of the night by forcing the door open (I know, I'm not proud of my actions). The woman's immeadiate reaction was to tell me to keep the noise down. I then proceeded to ask the woman whether she had any information on the mines. Her response wasn't to call the guards, or scream at me to get out, or to beg for her life, but instead to tell this well armed bunch of adventurers and killers that men have been dissapearing from the mines, and that her husband works their but hasn't been home for weeks.

    Now, I know its a game. I know its not real. But when confronted by a bunch of well armed burglars who have broken into my house in the middle of the night, I know what my first thought/reaction would be. And it wouldn't be to ask them to keep the nosie down, and then have a conversation about my husband/wife's workplace.

    Is this an example of bad writing? Has the forum been inundated by posts over the last few days that this example of bad writing needs removing. That it needs to be rewritten. That it breaks people's immersion in the game? That it ruins their overall enjoyment of BGEE and warrants a score of 0 out of 10 for the whole game?

    Anyway, I took the ring back and she was happy. Job done!

    IllustairSamy
  • Baeloth_JnrBaeloth_Jnr Member Posts: 86
    @BGLover: "Is this an example of bad writing? "

    No, it is not an example of bad writing, it is in keeping with the spirit of absurdity that underprops the original tetralogy.

    SJWs on the other hand, tend to lack a sense of humour (perhaps because so much humour is politically incorrect) - just scroll back up to the complaint about 'transgenderphobia' when a little levity was injected into the conversation for an example.

  • Sids1188Sids1188 Member Posts: 165
    Dillic said:


    Yes, people should be fair in their reviews, but if one thing bothers them so much, then that one thing bothers them so much, and you can't expect them to overlook it. Silly? Perhaps.

    Sure, I can get behind that. I had a game that I otherwise found decent, but was constantly filled with some of the worst sexism I'd seen in a game. After a few hours of that I gave up on it. I gave that game a review of 5 instead of the 6 or 7 I would given it otherwise. The game wasn't for me, but for people who are ok with that, they'll find a solid game.

    I don't think anyone would really be opposed to taking opposition to the message into account, but it doesn't automatically make a game terrible if it has some distasteful messages. And of course, getting people who haven't played the game but are only going off what they've been told to review it, is especially dishonest.
    Dillic said:


    If the game is good outside of that one thing, then it'll show on its own in time. I bet most people are willing to overlook one thing if the rest is worthwhile.

    Perhaps, but that depends on whether the negative reviews are actually in proportion with the people who actually didn't enjoy it (in which case the positive reviews will flood them out). That seems pretty unlikely to be the case though.
    BGLover said:

    Her response wasn't to call the guards, or scream at me to get out, or to beg for her life, but instead to tell this well armed bunch of adventurers and killers that men have been dissapearing from the mines, and that her husband works their but hasn't been home for weeks.

    But that's impossible! I keep hearing how it's inexcusable for a character to go into personal things (like a suspected dead husband, or being transgender) when first meeting them.

  • BeowulfBeowulf Member Posts: 236
    Dillic said:

    There's actually a heap of identity politics in the game. The trans character is but a small blip (which if written well and wasn't just diversity +2, you'd find a good portion of people not caring).

    Pretty much the entire city part before going off on your quest is lecturing you on the merits of wealth and material redistribution, mixed in with the issue of police brutality and refugees running amok. That's not a coincidence that it's in the game. Socialism 101.

    Female NPCs pretty much hit modern feminism 101 in writing. That's not a coincidence. The archer is a strong female single mother that's gay. The dwarf along with Viconia is simply there to get other NPCs to say that "she belongs to no one". Viconia and Dynaheir talk on the merits of racism, as does the goblin (who is also racist herself); you can't talk to them about it, so you're lectured. It's all done shallowly and taken straight from modern day identity politics.

    Definitely worthy of a "warning", especially if people were expecting it to be like BG1/2 where there was propaganda included.

    I have great discernment of social mores and climates being a sort of analyst of these things - a real hero of The West you should all thank for donig my job(s). A thankless job that sees a lot of violence. But, I rather not lecture on myself and my own import for the world and ur welfare. You should all thank cool Hell Hounds like me who ripped arab lands to sherds for ur SUV driving juice.

    I rather address his thrust on the very forward subliminal back stab made that cuts off the angry fat guy with a sucking chest wound so cruelly poked by the likes of Corwin. I would be ok with a lot of the things above if you could crush that speech with raging violence - and I was pleased I could slay the socailist in the elf song Inn who - like some self-justified Stalinist - claimed there theft and redistribution of my Hard looted gold was justified as they gave much of it to the plebeian poor proletariat. In this case though I got ot exercise my argument like the best Stalinist always did - by murdering the speakers and taking their stuff. This is why childish people make vids of themselves offing Miazzzzenn-no-negative-speech-option-trans-tempist-lady-guy.

    On the other hand I got so irritated I was unable to back Corwin's bile with angry fat male response I ended up just booting her male hating girl powered voice from my party.

    I was FORCED to keep Safina as there is no "I am an abused voice ctur girl cheerful voiced male pleaseing thief in the game" so yes I do feel a sort of agenda and lefty lessons were pressed on me to an extent. But overall I still like the game- and I am not fat male and angry enough to go write a bad review- in fact I have not writted any review at all.

    There is a culture war going on- and as others have pointed out Beamdog by their slant - has taked sides and polarised themselves - they should have stayed in fantasy and not entered PC into my Fat Male guy non-pc game. Here watch this old fat white guy if you do not understand what is going on in the world now-


  • Baeloth_JnrBaeloth_Jnr Member Posts: 86
    @mzachary

    I would count "Ethics in heroic adventuring" as a provocation, not a joke.
    But that doesn't particularly concern me (although it does suggest the writers are out of touch with their audience).
    Perhaps if the TG had been handled in a more BG-esque way then the fact it is a token drop in wouldn't have mattered, but I guess then bragging rights might have to be sequestered.

    Ratcliff
  • NomphosumusNomphosumus Member Posts: 14
    edited April 2016
    Dillic said:

    There's actually a heap of identity politics in the game. The trans character is but a small blip (which if written well and wasn't just diversity +2, you'd find a good portion of people not caring).

    Pretty much the entire city part before going off on your quest is lecturing you on the merits of wealth and material redistribution, mixed in with the issue of police brutality and refugees running amok. That's not a coincidence that it's in the game. Socialism 101.

    Female NPCs pretty much hit modern feminism 101 in writing. That's not a coincidence. The archer is a strong female single mother that's gay. The dwarf along with Viconia is simply there to get other NPCs to say that "she belongs to no one". Viconia and Dynaheir talk on the merits of racism, as does the goblin (who is also racist herself); you can't talk to them about it, so you're lectured. It's all done shallowly and taken straight from modern day identity politics.

    Definitely worthy of a "warning", especially if people were expecting it to be like BG1/2 where there was propaganda included.

    (Sorry for the abundance of my bad writing and my unholy grammatical stuff)

    I have to say that these days I cant even walk with hapiness or to smile to my wife or even work properly because this days of reading in this forum about one of the games I really love and the sadness I'm getting for how "alien" are the thoughs of some people for me. (I have to be too much sensitive I suspect but anyways a lot of what I'm reading is concerning me and I feel a lot of damage inside me because of this.)

    Umm... as citizen from another country I always find amusing how in U.S.A. (and his pet-slaves minor countries like my own) socialism is sort of a bad thing... when for me socialism for example I see like the only natural way to avoid this human civilization to dont go extint in his own corruption.... That the actual corrupted capitalism where countries and corporations have more rights than people is just sickening for me but hey... even when I play futuristic games where you use money-credits-ot whatever- for me is a sign of how hopeless we go... and yes I see how socialism is getting destroyed every place in the world because global capitalist imperialism try to make sure that it fails (for example corrupting political leaders to make sure they become tyrans or corrupted thiefes) so they can say socialism is a bad thing.

    And yes that is my personal political view but ey... even if I see money inside every game and I know that playing games is a way to use a product of a corporation ... and I reaaaaally dont like that (that makes me to feel that Im not truthful to myself...) I love D&D too much and roleplay is for me above my political-economic-social opinions.

    Nobody will see me complaining about this and it is my problem what I buy or what I dont... it is my thing to see what I want to do as Dungeon Master when I play or what characters I play as player.

    (NOW THE IMPORTANT THING OF MY POST)

    I really don't see the point of most of this thread of people talking to the creators of this game in such a negative way just because they dont like the game or they see an offense to their political values. The creators DID this product and people is reacting to them.... I see that pointless if you dont like something.. create your own product or play the game (in computer or in a table with some friends) in your different way. I think that is much more productive that what I see (to try to attack the creation of others instead to use your own creation). We are talking about a game of IMAGINATION and roleplay so I doubt that there is 2 people in the world that sees or play this game in the same way. Thats why it is important that this game have so much different stuff of so much different world-views. Thats why I dont understand that people CANT use imagination and decides what part or quest or roleplay they choose to have importance and why they dont just ignore the parts of the game that they feel that dont fix in their views.

    We are talking about roleplay here, to do and to feel things that you usually never do or even think IRL. Thats the reason I just dont care if the are political agenda in the game or not... (for me there is political agenda in everygame, every minute of TV, every artwork you see, even the colors of stuff inside your house or stuff you eat have product-design features to influence in your mind). But there is a place I decide what I am... when I play roleplayed games and no matter what I do or what I see inside a game that it is my what decide if I ignore it or not. I just dont understand why to try to go to the creators with anything when I can solve it inside my own mind what I ignore or not inside that game.



    And yes in the game I can ignore things.... but nobody is almighty or perfect and in my case I just cant be good or happy to see how people cant ignore stuff or process stuff in great games like this one. And what makes me unhappy is all the shitstorm that some people like to do and using internet in this corrupted way.


    Remember that Irenicus thought that he was doing justice.

  • MonkeyLungsMonkeyLungs Member Posts: 44
    @subtledoctor ,

    Yes it is obvious and I hope folks are actually seeing this for what it is. There are some people on this forum trying to rationalize and justify what is happening and they are doing it in a calm and -seemingly- polite manner. These are some of the worst of the bunch. They want people who are easily duped to think that their position is not aggressive and spiteful.

  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    UltraB00n said:

    Krotos said:

    it's essentially my childhood and you're doing everything in your power to leave as many people with sour taste in their mouths as possible.

    That's how I feel about writer(s) dragging their personal politics into Baldur's Gate, which was an important part of my childhood as well. I find it insulting and disrespectful that they would abuse it as an attack vector for identity politics.
    What nobody, who frequents this forum on a regular basis, understands is your need to spew your political views out on an RPG forum.
    What many people who play video games on a regular basis don't understand is the need to spew political views in video games.



    Sorry, just out of curiosity – what was the political "view" you think was being spewed by the existence of the trans character?

  • Baeloth_JnrBaeloth_Jnr Member Posts: 86
    @MonkeyLungs

    Perhaps you need to read the SOD PR again:

    “If there was something for the original Baldur’s Gate that just doesn’t mesh for modern day gamers like the sexism, [we tried to address that],” said writer Amber Scott. “In the original there’s a lot of jokes at women’s expense. Or if not a lot, there’s a couple, like Safana was just a sex object in BG 1, and Jaheira was the nagging wife and that was played for comedy. We were able to say, ‘No, that’s not really the kind of story we want to make.’ In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade. If people don’t like that, then too bad.”

    Coffeethrall
  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 863

    @MonkeyLungs

    Perhaps you need to read the SOD PR again:

    “If there was something for the original Baldur’s Gate that just doesn’t mesh for modern day gamers like the sexism, [we tried to address that],” said writer Amber Scott. “In the original there’s a lot of jokes at women’s expense. Or if not a lot, there’s a couple, like Safana was just a sex object in BG 1, and Jaheira was the nagging wife and that was played for comedy. We were able to say, ‘No, that’s not really the kind of story we want to make.’ In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade. If people don’t like that, then too bad.”

    Your point being?

  • KrotosKrotos Member Posts: 156

    @MonkeyLungs

    Perhaps you need to read the SOD PR again:

    “If there was something for the original Baldur’s Gate that just doesn’t mesh for modern day gamers like the sexism, [we tried to address that],” said writer Amber Scott. “In the original there’s a lot of jokes at women’s expense. Or if not a lot, there’s a couple, like Safana was just a sex object in BG 1, and Jaheira was the nagging wife and that was played for comedy. We were able to say, ‘No, that’s not really the kind of story we want to make.’ In Siege of Dragonspear, Safana gets her own little storyline, she got a way better personality upgrade. If people don’t like that, then too bad.”

    She said that months ago, not as a reaction to this whole...thing.

This discussion has been closed.