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  • Baeloth_JnrBaeloth_Jnr Member Posts: 86
    edited April 2016
    @Purudaya "Gamerbros are the most thin skinned human beings I've possibly ever witnessed – I have seen people call each other *horrific* things face to face and have less of a reaction than the foot stomping you've been doing over the last 72 hours. "

    1. What "you've been doing"? That implies a collective action of which I am consciously part. Completely incorrect.
    2. If there is a reactionary "thin skin" I am completely unsurprised because that is the kind of environment fostered by SJW and political correctness generally. Hypersensitivity is now met with hypersensitivity, one supposedly justifying the other. If one side cries fowl over supposedly offensive characterizations, then don;t be surprised when the other side adopts the same tactic over perceived offences (welcome to 2016).
    3. Having said that, I think there are legitimate complaints about Beamdogs execution of the project and comments on it, which I have previously alluded to.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    What do you mean by "political correctness"?

  • Baeloth_JnrBaeloth_Jnr Member Posts: 86
    @MonkeyLungs

    Well, I don;t want to draw individuals into it either, suffice to say that putting an acknowledged political agenda into an established game is obviously going to be divisive, so don't be too surprised if you get a negative reaction.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

    mzacharyKilivitzKrotos
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    Friends please try to be patient and respectful to our fellow fans, even if you disagree with their point of view. You can't bring someone to your side by antagonising them.

    Vyrulissesmady3KrotosHalfwise
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816

    @Purudaya "Gamerbros are the most thin skinned human beings I've possibly ever witnessed – I have seen people call each other *horrific* things face to face and have less of a reaction than the foot stomping you've been doing over the last 72 hours. "

    1. What "you've been doing"? That implies a collective action of which I am consciously part. Completely incorrect.
    2. If there is a reactionary "thin skin" I am completely unsurprised because that is the kind of environment fostered by SJW and political correctness generally. Hypersensitivity is now met with hypersensitivity, one supposedly justifying the other. If one side cries fowl over supposedly offensive characterizations, then don;t be surprised when the other side adopts the same tactic over perceived offences (welcome to 2016).
    3. Having said that, I think there are legitimate complaints about Beamdogs execution of the project and comments on it, which I have previously alluded to.

    1. I am obviously referring to the flood of people you seem to find common cause with, not suggesting that you are a conscious participant in an organized collective action. I think you knew that.

    2. Ah, so "SJWs" are to blame for your oversensitivity. Got it. Welcome to 2016 indeed.

    3. I have nothing against complaints. This thread is about review bombing and the severe, disproportionate backlash to a few lines from a trans character and a throwaway Easter egg joke that somehow completely eviscerated your* poor feelings. If this were just forum complaints I would have no problem with it whatsoever.

    *Again, I am using the royal "you." It's a speech modality.

  • IllustairIllustair Member Posts: 863
    edited April 2016

    @MonkeyLungs

    Well, I don;t want to draw individuals into it either, suffice to say that putting an acknowledged political agenda into an established game is obviously going to be divisive, so don't be too surprised if you get a negative reaction.

    How much of this political agenda was put in the game really? By that I mean that put them out of character. Since if it stays true to the character, whether it comes from political agenda or not, it doesn't matter, right?

  • HumbleScribeHumbleScribe Member Posts: 10
    It's quite amazing how much fuss some people are creating over two or three lines of dialogue. A sense of proportion is badly needed among some players, I think.

    Illustair[Deleted User]Krotos
  • StradlinStradlin Member Posts: 142
    edited April 2016
    Purudaya said:



    3. This thread is about review bombing and the severe, disproportionate backlash to a few lines from a trans character and a throwaway Easter egg joke that somehow completely eviscerated your* poor feelings. If this were just forum complaints I would have no problem with it whatsoever.

    *Again, I am using the royal "you." It's a speech modality.


    Oh please. If you touch a controversial topic that lots of people are hyper sensitive about with a 10 foot pole, you will get your 10 foot pole mighty dirty. This is exceptionally true during this new seemingly unlikely golden dawn of politically correct outrage culture. Ultimately, this is not some "terrible brigade harassment of some GG monsters omg" as much as it is just Internet 101. Or human nature 101. From what I've seen, this whole insufferable GG Vs. SJW thing has some utterly wretched people being extremely loud an obnoxious on both trenches. Make a bad throwaway Easter egg joke about either in your game, and you WILL get your pole, hands end elbows very dirty. And you know what? That's fine. If you like poking some internet bee hive and enjoy what it does, by all means, I guess. Just, and here is the kicker, don't act like you are some epic victim or " target of harassment omg" when it does happen that you get your pole, hands, etc dirty.

    Frankly, it is so predictable that it'd not surprise me if it was a perfectly calculated, perfectly pragmatic PR stunt from Beamdog's part all along. 100 stupid Meta critic reviews being all it takes for devs to go " ANITA PLS HELP US!!" in an effort to actually turn their game into some hot topic in outrage wars certainly implies as much, heh. People upset about Siege of Dragonspear (or upset about people upset) is much larger measure of folks than few thousand loyal fans ever were. Questionable if it generates good publicity. It undeniably does generate publicity though.

    FoxterGodKaiserHellatakdog
  • Baeloth_JnrBaeloth_Jnr Member Posts: 86
    @Purudaya "Easter egg joke that somehow completely eviscerated your* poor feelings. If this were just forum complaints I would have no problem with it whatsoever.
    *Again, I am using the royal "you." It's a speech modality. "

    Actually that use of "your" reads as a reference to a particular individual, not a group.
    Even if one gave it a strained reading, it's still an inappropriate use, because you are referring to me as a member of a group to which I do not belong.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited April 2016

    @MonkeyLungs

    Well, I don;t want to draw individuals into it either, suffice to say that putting an acknowledged political agenda into an established game is obviously going to be divisive, so don't be too surprised if you get a negative reaction.

    But that's the thing: there is no political agenda, SoD mealy reflects life in the 21st century, not the 19th.

    Or perhaps I should say: what do you mean by "political agenda"? Do you believe Beamdog are trying to get some individual elected somewhere? If so, how do you think their writing was intended to accomplish that?

  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    Stradlin said:

    Purudaya said:



    3. This thread is about review bombing and the severe, disproportionate backlash to a few lines from a trans character and a throwaway Easter egg joke that somehow completely eviscerated your* poor feelings. If this were just forum complaints I would have no problem with it whatsoever.

    *Again, I am using the royal "you." It's a speech modality.


    Oh please. If you touch a controversial topic that lots of people are hyper sensitive about with a 10 foot pole, you will get your 10 foot pole mighty dirty. This is exceptionally true during this new seemingly unlikely golden dawn of politically correct outrage culture. Ultimately, this is not some "terrible brigade harassment of some GG monsters omg" as much as it is just Internet 101. Or human nature 101.

    Frankly, it is so predictable that it'd not surprise me if it was a perfectly calculated, perfectly pragmatic PR stunt all along. 100 stupid Meta critic reviews being all it takes for devs to go " ANITA PLS HELP US!!" in an effort to actually turn their game into some hot topic in outrage wars certainly implies as much, heh. People upset about Siege of Dragonspear (or upset about people upset) is much larger measure of folks than few thousand loyal fans ever were. Questionable if it generates good publicity. It undeniably does generate publicity though.
    Just a note, since it seems to have been ignored: the tweets you're referencing were deleted, and no response was given from either Anita or the (incorrectly mentioned) Jezebel. It was an honest mistake, which has since been remedied.

  • Baeloth_JnrBaeloth_Jnr Member Posts: 86
    @Fardragon "But that's the thing: there is no political agenda, SoD mealy reflects life in the 21st century, not the 19th. "

    No, it reflects a political view (a divisive one) of how things should be; that is not 'life in the 21st century' it is /one/ view of it.

  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597

    @Fardragon "But that's the thing: there is no political agenda, SoD mealy reflects life in the 21st century, not the 19th. "

    No, it reflects a political view (a divisive one) of how things should be; that is not 'life in the 21st century' it is /one/ view of it.

    Sorry to bother you friend but what political view is this? That trans people exist? Is that not demonstrably clear at this point?

    Fardragon[Deleted User]Krotos
  • StradlinStradlin Member Posts: 142
    edited April 2016
    Dee said:

    Stradlin said:

    Purudaya said:



    3. This thread is about review bombing and the severe, disproportionate backlash to a few lines from a trans character and a throwaway Easter egg joke that somehow completely eviscerated your* poor feelings. If this were just forum complaints I would have no problem with it whatsoever.

    *Again, I am using the royal "you." It's a speech modality.


    Oh please. If you touch a controversial topic that lots of people are hyper sensitive about with a 10 foot pole, you will get your 10 foot pole mighty dirty. This is exceptionally true during this new seemingly unlikely golden dawn of politically correct outrage culture. Ultimately, this is not some "terrible brigade harassment of some GG monsters omg" as much as it is just Internet 101. Or human nature 101.

    Frankly, it is so predictable that it'd not surprise me if it was a perfectly calculated, perfectly pragmatic PR stunt all along. 100 stupid Meta critic reviews being all it takes for devs to go " ANITA PLS HELP US!!" in an effort to actually turn their game into some hot topic in outrage wars certainly implies as much, heh. People upset about Siege of Dragonspear (or upset about people upset) is much larger measure of folks than few thousand loyal fans ever were. Questionable if it generates good publicity. It undeniably does generate publicity though.
    Just a note, since it seems to have been ignored: the tweets you're referencing were deleted, and no response was given from either Anita or the (incorrectly mentioned) Jezebel. It was an honest mistake, which has since been remedied.


    ^
    I didn't know that. I guess this fits under umbrella of bits that really do suck about Internet. ( Or are great about Internet, when we speak of legitimately important, legitimately wicked stuff like Wikileaks or spillings of the very recent Panama stuff etc. ) Can't really delete anything interesting. Usually doing so just makes it more..present. tbh I can totally buy that it wasn't part of some grand, highly calculated PR scheme but just people acting in heat and frustration of the moment. But honestly, I can totally understand some halfway interested average lad or lass thinking it might have been PR. Cause I'm not that far away from some halfway interested average lad or lass thinking it might have been PR myself. ;p

  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816

    @Purudaya "Easter egg joke that somehow completely eviscerated your* poor feelings. If this were just forum complaints I would have no problem with it whatsoever.
    *Again, I am using the royal "you." It's a speech modality. "

    Actually that use of "your" reads as a reference to a particular individual, not a group.
    Even if one gave it a strained reading, it's still an inappropriate use, because you are referring to me as a member of a group to which I do not belong.

    Lol...oh man. Not all people who find common cause need to be conscious "members" of anything. There are memetic viewpoints being expressed here and multiple people hold them. The word "you" can be used to identify either an individual or a loose group of people who seem to be communicating a similar narrative/perception.

    That said, I'm not going to argue semantics or feed further posts from you on this non-issue. Feel free to claim that you "won" this one if you like.

    Illustair
  • namelesstwonamelesstwo Member Posts: 15
    Ok, after reading this entire (!) thread, here`s my 5 cents on that:
    Like it or not, politics play huge part in many, many films, songs and yes, even video games.
    From Citizen Kane, through The Wall and Born in the USA to just about every X-Men movie, they all have same sort of political agenda. So what?
    Hell, even the original BG has a little Feminist touch… does it say we can`t enjoy it anymore?
    If you`re a true BG fan, just enjoy the long-waited opportunity you get to re-visit the lovely Realms and if you come across NPC you don`t like, you can simply ignore him\her. You know what? You can even blast that NPC with fireballs, or have Neera casting spells near him until a big cow falls from the sky and smash him… IT’S A VIDEO GAME AND YOU CAN DO WHATEVER YOU LIKE!
    I really can`t see the big deal with having a transgender NPC in your game. It is nowhere near as bad as making a meat sausage out of pedestrians (GTA 2) or torturing an innocent person (GTA 5).

    joluv
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited April 2016

    @Fardragon "But that's the thing: there is no political agenda, SoD mealy reflects life in the 21st century, not the 19th. "

    No, it reflects a political view (a divisive one) of how things should be; that is not 'life in the 21st century' it is /one/ view of it.

    How can a view be "political" if it isn't about trying to get someone elected, or influence the way a country is governed?!

    Where is the view divisive? Not here in the UK or Europe, and I doubt you are part of the Islamic State, so I assume you mean "divisive in the United States of America"?

    I was reading an article on the BBC the other day, and the reporter expressed the view that due to the proliferation of media sources, the Left and Right in the USA where reading entirely different news and views, to the extent that each side had no idea what, or how, the other side thought or felt. In effect, there are two completely separate societies, isolated from each other. Thus, Beamdog, living in one society, might be unaware that ideas that they take for granted would be considered controversial by the other.

    On the other hand, someone said "no publicity is bad publicity". Maybe they deliberately set out to annoy reactionaries to raise their profile and boost sales?

  • Baeloth_JnrBaeloth_Jnr Member Posts: 86
    @Diogenes42 "Sorry to bother you friend but what political view is this? That trans people exist? Is that not demonstrably clear at this point? "

    No. Sexual diversity in literature goes back at least as far as Sappho.
    I mean identity politics, the focus on gender (or other minority) identity over personal identity.

  • Baeloth_JnrBaeloth_Jnr Member Posts: 86
    @Purudaya "Lol...oh man. Not all people who find common cause need to be conscious "members" of anything. There are memetic viewpoints being expressed here and multiple people hold them. The word "you" can be used to identify either an individual or a loose group of people who seem to be communicating a similar narrative/perception."

    "Oh man" indeed, your assertion that an "Easter egg joke that somehow completely eviscerated your* poor feelings" does not apply to me.
    My feelings have not been "somehow completely eviscerated."
    Therefore it is an incorrect classification.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    @Diogenes42 "Sorry to bother you friend but what political view is this? That trans people exist? Is that not demonstrably clear at this point? "

    No. Sexual diversity in literature goes back at least as far as Sappho.
    I mean identity politics, the focus on gender (or other minority) identity over personal identity.

    You mean:

    1) A person should have the right to choose their own identity

    or

    2) A person's identity should be dictated by society

    ?

    Because I don't actually see how SoD tries to argue a case for either of these.

    It seems more like:

    3) The world contains people who are different to you.

    Given that 3) is demonstrably true, I don't see that it is in any way controversial.

  • RazorRazor Member Posts: 435
    edited April 2016
    I wont get much into the discussion. But this feels silly. I'am sure everyone has their views. But was it really a good idea to touch these subjects Beamdog? maybe you'll get publicity, and some say no pub is bad pub...
    We had our discussions here on the forums, things were controlled, now its out there and they may have the power to rock your boat, I think you shouldnt have angered them (w/Anita, Amber IDK). I think you shouldnt even say anything else as it is used against you!
    I myself have a strong opinion about the sexism claims made about BG females but I keep it to myself, because in the end I do support you. But you can't openly say some things about fictional chars that are like family to some people and be surprised with what happened.

    GodKaiserHell
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited April 2016
    So you saying people should keep their opinions to themselves out fear of a small group of powerful American fanatics who will try to make life difficult for you?

    Personally, my mother always taught me to stand up to bullies.

    mzachary[Deleted User]Kilivitz
  • mzacharymzachary Member Posts: 106


    I mean identity politics, the focus on gender (or other minority) identity over personal identity.

    You do realize that specifically not wanting any focus on any aspect of 'gender identity' to the point that simply mentioning that one is transgender creates this kind of moral outrage is in itself identity politics?

    Fardragon[Deleted User]
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    Razor said:

    I wont get much into the discussion. But this feels silly. I'am sure everyone has their views. But was it really a good idea to touch these subjects Beamdog? maybe you'll get publicity, and some say no pub is bad pub...
    We had our discussions here on the forums, things were controlled, now its out there and they may have the power to rock your boat, I think you shouldnt have angered them (w/Anita, Amber IDK). I think you shouldnt even say anything else as it is used against you!
    I myself have a strong opinion about the sexism claims made about BG females but I keep it to myself, because in the end I do support you. But you can't openly say some things about fictional chars that are like family to some people and be surprised with what happened.

    I understand just wishing this had never happened, but in some ways, arguments like the one above bother me the most: "I'm not saying that I was offended, but Beamdog should be more careful not to offend anyone." That's essentially saying they should pander instead of speaking honestly or following their creative vision. It's remarkable if not surprising that so many people don't see the irony.

    [Deleted User]
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    Sigh. One's gender identity is inextricably *linked* to their personal identity. This should not require explanation: I am a man – being a man is part of who I am.

    "Identity Politics" is code for not believing that it is possible for one's gender to conflict with their sex; i.e. that trans people are either lying or sick and it is wrong for us to accept their stated identity at face value. The inclusion of a trans person in a game where her identity IS accepted at face value is therefore threatening – it reflects a growing trend in society that gamerbros are against. What we see as an innocent moment (because society is trending towards inclusion) they see as a war on their desire to reject trans experiences as valid or healthy.

    There are a few who claim that they are only against "bad writing" and that they would be OK with trans inclusion if only it were "better done" or "more fleshed out." But if that were true, then they wouldn't be using terms like "identity politics" in the first place.

    mzacharyFardragonFawnky
This discussion has been closed.