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  • iassoniasson Member Posts: 101
    edited April 2016
    @Rawgrim its not about fairness its about sending a message. "If you don't like that, well, too bad")

    GodKaiserHell
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621

    Rawgrim said:

    Xzar said:

    So, 32 pages into discussion we still see that most of people havent moved an inch from their initial positions. Doesnt look good for perspectives of peace. Concessions need to be made by both sides, soon.

    One side is handwaving all criticism away by calling it "bigotry". On the other side all criticism is being handwaved away because it is a "SJW agenda". And in the middle we find some genuine criticism\feedback\praise that gets attacked by both parts.

    Have I assessed the situation correctly?
    Yes! This is it completely! There are more than 2 bloody sides here. If people in the middle disagree, they're accused of being on the 'other side'.
    I know. Beamdog should actually address this. So far they have just blamed all negative feedback on " a wave of bigots hating the trans". That simply isn't the whole truth at all.

    GodKaiserHellValchrist
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    iasson said:

    @Rawgrim its not about fairness its about sending a message. "If you don't like that, well, too bad")

    So it is an unfair message? :)

  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    iasson said:

    @Rawgrim its not about fairness its about sending a message. "If you don't like that, well, too bad")

    This was not about sending a message, it was not continuing perceived, minor sexist tropes into SoD and better fleshing out the characters.

    And yes, if you don't like that - too bad. You do not get to demand to live in a world where you are never confronted with anything you don't like. You're welcome to whine and complain on the forums, hell - even lash out at the devs on twitter. But review bombing a game because it has something in it you dislike is fundamentally childish, *especially* when it doesn't do anything to alter the dialogue in the original BG.

    If you don't like what Wizards of the Coast has done with its own franchise, then you can buy the original, unaltered version for $9.99 here:

    https://www.gog.com/game/baldurs_gate_the_original_saga

    You can play it right now.

    RawgrimKrotos
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Dee said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Xzar said:

    So, 32 pages into discussion we still see that most of people havent moved an inch from their initial positions. Doesnt look good for perspectives of peace. Concessions need to be made by both sides, soon.

    One side is handwaving all criticism away by calling it "bigotry". On the other side all criticism is being handwaved away because it is a "SJW agenda". And in the middle we find some genuine criticism\feedback\praise that gets attacked by both parts.

    Have I assessed the situation correctly?
    Yes! This is it completely! There are more than 2 bloody sides here. If people in the middle disagree, they're accused of being on the 'other side'.
    I know. Beamdog should actually address this. So far they have just blamed all negative feedback on " a wave of bigots hating the trans". That simply isn't the whole truth at all.
    I don't know about anyone else, but I know I've said at least a few times that there's legitimate criticism to be had, if it weren't being overshadowed by the more uncivil discourse that's happening right now.
    I know. It is hard to spot it in the wave of inane hatred from both sides.

  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    Let's all just try to be calm either way friends. Discussion is best achieved through cool heads.

    mzacharytypo_tillyJuliusBorisovKrotos
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Purudaya said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Dee said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Xzar said:

    So, 32 pages into discussion we still see that most of people havent moved an inch from their initial positions. Doesnt look good for perspectives of peace. Concessions need to be made by both sides, soon.

    One side is handwaving all criticism away by calling it "bigotry". On the other side all criticism is being handwaved away because it is a "SJW agenda". And in the middle we find some genuine criticism\feedback\praise that gets attacked by both parts.

    Have I assessed the situation correctly?
    Yes! This is it completely! There are more than 2 bloody sides here. If people in the middle disagree, they're accused of being on the 'other side'.
    I know. Beamdog should actually address this. So far they have just blamed all negative feedback on " a wave of bigots hating the trans". That simply isn't the whole truth at all.
    I don't know about anyone else, but I know I've said at least a few times that there's legitimate criticism to be had, if it weren't being overshadowed by the more uncivil discourse that's happening right now.
    I know. It is hard to spot it in the wave of inane hatred from both sides.
    I'm sorry, but this is a false equivalency. I haven't been using words like "tranny" or "libtard." I can be pretty terse, but both sides are not equally guilty of "hatred."
    I know. I wasn't talking about you. I was generalizing. But I see venom and insults getting spewed out from both sides. Who spits the most isn't the point. It is there and it isn't helping.

    I wasn't having a go at anyone specific.

    typo_tilly
  • iassoniasson Member Posts: 101
    @Purudaya I don't know in what cave u live, but in our world u have to make choices and take sides. Neutrality is the way to accept the wining sides agenda. So supporting my pov is not only justified but is actually healthy and wanted in a democracy. The means to apply pressure now is the reviews and this forum. U are entitled to ur opinion as much as I am entitled to my own.

  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Purudaya said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Purudaya said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Dee said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Xzar said:

    So, 32 pages into discussion we still see that most of people havent moved an inch from their initial positions. Doesnt look good for perspectives of peace. Concessions need to be made by both sides, soon.

    One side is handwaving all criticism away by calling it "bigotry". On the other side all criticism is being handwaved away because it is a "SJW agenda". And in the middle we find some genuine criticism\feedback\praise that gets attacked by both parts.

    Have I assessed the situation correctly?
    Yes! This is it completely! There are more than 2 bloody sides here. If people in the middle disagree, they're accused of being on the 'other side'.
    I know. Beamdog should actually address this. So far they have just blamed all negative feedback on " a wave of bigots hating the trans". That simply isn't the whole truth at all.
    I don't know about anyone else, but I know I've said at least a few times that there's legitimate criticism to be had, if it weren't being overshadowed by the more uncivil discourse that's happening right now.
    I know. It is hard to spot it in the wave of inane hatred from both sides.
    I'm sorry, but this is a false equivalency. I haven't been using words like "tranny" or "libtard." I can be pretty terse, but both sides are not equally guilty of "hatred."
    I know. I wasn't talking about you. I was generalizing. But I see venom and insults getting spewed out from both sides. Who spits the most isn't the point. It is there and it isn't helping.

    I wasn't having a go at anyone specific.
    I know you weren't. I'm just resistant to calls for both sides to "compromise" (not saying you said this) because they both have allegedly equal points.

    My stance:

    1. A game developer has a right to put whatever they want into a game.
    2. Gamergate has a right to be offended and to criticize and complain.
    3. Review bombing a title to hurt a developer because they included something you don't like is unacceptable no matter who the developer is or what the developer has created.

    That IS a middleground stance.
    I agree 100 percent with all of your points.

    [Deleted User]MoradinKrotos
  • XzarXzar Member Posts: 215
    Rawgrim said:

    Xzar said:

    So, 32 pages into discussion we still see that most of people havent moved an inch from their initial positions. Doesnt look good for perspectives of peace. Concessions need to be made by both sides, soon.

    One side is handwaving all criticism away by calling it "bigotry". On the other side all criticism is being handwaved away because it is a "SJW agenda". And in the middle we find some genuine criticism\feedback\praise that gets attacked by both parts.

    Have I assessed the situation correctly?
    Almost. Big part of issue is that developers unanimously on "bigotry" side, not willing to take into account even smallest bit from "Anti-SJW" side. This bring into question devs supposed diversity, since so far it seems there is either not a single non-liberal developer in Beamdog, or theyre afraid to go against the flow.

    Another problem is that while this "hey barbarians from 19 century, you will obey, too bad if not" attitude scores them points among those who perceive themselves as agents of all that is right, reasonable and progressive, it also completely politicizes their product. Even if agitprop is nicely done and spreads something "good", its still agitprop.

    Regardless of which attitudes towards the issues of gender exist in educated circles of Canada and USA, there is a big world outside these circles. This world will strike, if allowed. And Beamdog is not EA or Apple to proudly wear rainbow flag, Beamdog is vulnerable. By brazenly waving rainbow flag they invite all those who would like to hurt EA and Apple in a broader sense, but cannot. And its a massive force. And it wont go away if you dont agree on some kind of cease-fire with them. You cant defeat them by doubling down on your beliefs, because theyre consciously against them and they want represenation (not demonization) in art too.

    I see this bickering continuing indefinitely, if "bigots" views are not respected and shamed.

    OsigoldGodKaiserHelliasson
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

    Illustair
  • XzarXzar Member Posts: 215
    edited April 2016
    bengoshi said:

    iasson said:

    people on this forum always behaved in the same passive aggressive way. they always refuse to accept that what is normality for them cant be normal for others.

    Just on the contrary. This forum has been full of kind and well-behaving people, who listen to each other and respect different points of view.

    Only for the last 5-6 days the situation has changed, but it's because of this controversy and the fact that many posters have been violating the site rules. If people followed them, there would be no problems.
    This forum was always full of liberals who were free to speak their minds, and closeted reactionaires who leaned to keep their mouth shut because they were being picked on, and shamed, and banned. I'm here from the very foundation of this forum and I always knew better than to speak my mind openly, because I knew the opposition will be too immense, and I would be eaten alive. Only for last days I feel secure enough to speak, because even if you ban me, at least I wont be alone in this.

    GodKaiserHelliasson
  • AndrewRogueAndrewRogue Member Posts: 72
    edited April 2016
    Dillic said:

    Writers can do whatever they like with their product.

    The customers can critique however they like in turn.

    A nice warning on the box: "contains far more identity politics than previous titles and is unapologetic about it", probably would have helped here, as people would have known what they were in for and avoided it if they didn't like such.

    I've seen this sentiment a few times and it is really starting to annoy me. Sorry for snagging your particular post.

    Isn't it fair to argue that Baldur's Gate has ALWAYS been about identity politics? I mean, a lot of the game is about being Bhaalspawn, what that means, what you will choose to do with that power, how you relate to that power, how it shapes you, how people perceive you because of it, etc.

    Viconia has a whole racial subplot going on to.

    [Deleted User]Krotos
  • iassoniasson Member Posts: 101
    @subtledoctor I have no need to pretend or to care how others perceive me. I am satisfied with my life and myself and I know very well where I stand so others opinion don't bother me at all. I am well educated from decent sources, not our daily *marysue* crap people tend to believe, about all big social issues and I have an opinion formed about everything I care to. Since u refered to women opression I would like to suggest u to read *the patriarchate* and inform yourself in depth as to why men of today have a hidden hatred for women

  • iassoniasson Member Posts: 101
    @subtledoctor this is also the reason why I hate SocJus and I strike against it every time. SocJus isnt about justice or educating people in order to make our world better, its about oppression and brainwash in order to form the society in a way SJW find acceptable.

    Valchrist
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    Xzar said:

    bengoshi said:

    iasson said:

    people on this forum always behaved in the same passive aggressive way. they always refuse to accept that what is normality for them cant be normal for others.

    Just on the contrary. This forum has been full of kind and well-behaving people, who listen to each other and respect different points of view.

    Only for the last 5-6 days the situation has changed, but it's because of this controversy and the fact that many posters have been violating the site rules. If people followed them, there would be no problems.
    This forum was always full of liberals who were free to speak their minds, and closeted reactionaires who leaned to keep their mouth shut because they were being picked on, and shamed, and banned. I'm here from the very foundation of this forum and I always knew better than to speak my mind openly, because I knew the opposition will be too immense, and I would be eaten alive. Only for last days I feel secure enough to speak, because even if you ban me, at least I wont be alone in this.
    You don't think there's anyone in the middle?

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    Xzar said:

    Regardless of which attitudes towards the issues of gender exist in educated circles of Canada and USA, there is a big world outside these circles. This world will strike, if allowed. And Beamdog is not EA or Apple to proudly wear rainbow flag, Beamdog is vulnerable. By brazenly waving rainbow flag they invite all those who would like to hurt EA and Apple in a broader sense, but cannot. And its a massive force. And it wont go away if you dont agree on some kind of cease-fire with them. You cant defeat them by doubling down on your beliefs, because theyre consciously against them and they want represenation (not demonization) in art too.

    I know you're using the third person here, but I hope you can understand that this comes across as a threat, in much the same way that part of RedKnight's magnum opus did.

  • mzacharymzachary Member Posts: 106
    iasson said:

    @subtledoctor official response is still pending. When it is released and we see that they will choose their writers more carefully in the future we will change our ratings. Now we just feel cheated of what was supposed to be a great game, and instead we got SocJus lessons

    Ah how enlightened of you, you only want Beamdog to purge their writers when they don't conform to your views. Well dear @jasson you might enjoy this article as it seems to have been written with your sentiments in mind.

    killerrabbitKrotos
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    Rawgrim said:

    Purudaya said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Purudaya said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Dee said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Rawgrim said:

    Xzar said:

    So, 32 pages into discussion we still see that most of people havent moved an inch from their initial positions. Doesnt look good for perspectives of peace. Concessions need to be made by both sides, soon.

    One side is handwaving all criticism away by calling it "bigotry". On the other side all criticism is being handwaved away because it is a "SJW agenda". And in the middle we find some genuine criticism\feedback\praise that gets attacked by both parts.

    Have I assessed the situation correctly?
    Yes! This is it completely! There are more than 2 bloody sides here. If people in the middle disagree, they're accused of being on the 'other side'.
    I know. Beamdog should actually address this. So far they have just blamed all negative feedback on " a wave of bigots hating the trans". That simply isn't the whole truth at all.
    I don't know about anyone else, but I know I've said at least a few times that there's legitimate criticism to be had, if it weren't being overshadowed by the more uncivil discourse that's happening right now.
    I know. It is hard to spot it in the wave of inane hatred from both sides.
    I'm sorry, but this is a false equivalency. I haven't been using words like "tranny" or "libtard." I can be pretty terse, but both sides are not equally guilty of "hatred."
    I know. I wasn't talking about you. I was generalizing. But I see venom and insults getting spewed out from both sides. Who spits the most isn't the point. It is there and it isn't helping.

    I wasn't having a go at anyone specific.
    I know you weren't. I'm just resistant to calls for both sides to "compromise" (not saying you said this) because they both have allegedly equal points.

    My stance:

    1. A game developer has a right to put whatever they want into a game.
    2. Gamergate has a right to be offended and to criticize and complain.
    3. Review bombing a title to hurt a developer because they included something you don't like is unacceptable no matter who the developer is or what the developer has created.

    That IS a middleground stance.
    I agree 100 percent with all of your points.
    I can get pretty heated, but there is no way I would be this invested in fighting back against these people if it weren't for the review bombing. I look a the manipulated scores and think of all the hard work and soul Beamdog staff put into this for over YEAR. How crushing it must feel to see all of that sh*t on because a group of easily offended people has decided that simply offering criticism isn't harsh and painful enough.

    They are calling for people to be fired. Imagine how Amber Scott must feel - whether you agree with her views or not, being called a c*nt for what you believe (I've seen it) and having people try to censor you and HATE you isn't something anyone deserves.

    This has gone too far. That's why I'm here, and I'll be gone as soon as the review bombing ends.

    killerrabbitKrotos
  • BGLoverBGLover Member Posts: 549
    iasson said:

    @subtledoctor this is also the reason why I hate SocJus and I strike against it every time. SocJus isnt about justice or educating people in order to make our world better, its about oppression and brainwash in order to form the society in a way SJW find acceptable.

    Baldurs Gate is a game. A game in which I can smash a woman's door down in the middle of the night and her reaction? To ask me to keep the noise down. And then we have a nice conversation about her missing husbands workplace.

    What are you talking about hate for? What are you talking about striking things for? Oppression? Brainwashing?

    Its Baldurs Gate. Its Siege of Dragonspear. It is not a 'cultural war'. There really isn't any need to wage a concerted campaign to discredit and undermine the game. There really isn't.

    [Deleted User]Krotos
  • MiloMilo Member Posts: 59
    iasson said:

    @subtledoctor this is also the reason why I hate SocJus and I strike against it every time. SocJus isnt about justice or educating people in order to make our world better, its about oppression and brainwash in order to form the society in a way SJW find acceptable.

    Similar to a fringe internet gaming society launching a smear campaign against a developer because they don't like things in their game?

    You mean like that?

    The lack of self awareness in your statement is astounding.

  • iassoniasson Member Posts: 101
    @mzachary its not about censorship. Its about taking the right to write away from a bully. Cause the statement *if some people dont like it, well, too bad* is a direct assault.

This discussion has been closed.