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SoD and Beamdog have got support from WotC

JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,110
Many people have been wondering what the WotC's reaction to SoD would be. Now we know.

"To our community,

Dungeons & Dragons stands by the stories our partners tell and we fully support the choices Beamdog has made in developing Siege of Dragonspear. Inclusivity is a core value of Wizards of the Coast and we believe that all people, regardless of ethnicity, background, gender identity or sexuality, should be free to play our games without fear of harassment or attacks. In July of 2014 we released the D&D Player’s Handbook for the fifth edition and included the following section as an example of our core values.



Sincerely,
Nathan Stewart
Director of Dungeons & Dragons"

https://www.facebook.com/dungeonsanddragons/photos/a.98724281070.125189.73340321070/10153970936806071/?type=1&theater

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Comments

  • DLiteDLite Member Posts: 52
    edited April 2016
    That's sweet. But can I at least *roleplay* a douchebag, since I don't get to be one IRL?

    No? Ok then.

    *yawn*

    IthualPhilhelmTasveryn
  • Glam_VrockGlam_Vrock Member Posts: 263
    DLite said:

    That's sweet. But can I at least *roleplay* a douchebag, since I don't get to be one IRL?

    No? Ok then.

    *yawn*

    Sure you can! Just not to this particular character.

  • LorvaylinLorvaylin Member Posts: 41
    Yet more virtue signalling, you people just don't get it do you. There's no point it seems you never will

  • simplessimples Member Posts: 539
    edited April 2016
    oh it's good they released an official statement to show their support at least.

    ALSO: the next person who uses any of the following expressions or terms will be punched in the face: shoehorning, SJW, virtue signal(ling), hamfisted (i may or may not add to this list as i see fit)

    killerrabbitGenderNihilismGirdleBillyH666ValamirCleaver
  • DetectiveMittensDetectiveMittens Member Posts: 234
    edited April 2016
    Lorvaylin said:

    Yet more virtue signalling, you people just don't get it do you. There's no point it seems you never will

    Perhaps then, your issue is with WotC. And subsequently elsewhere.

    killerrabbitBillyH666ValamirCleavermf2112
  • LorvaylinLorvaylin Member Posts: 41

    Lorvaylin said:

    Yet more virtue signalling, you people just don't get it do you. There's no point it seems you never will

    Perhaps then, your issue is with WotC. And subsequently elsewhere.
    Well beamdog were responding to my e-mails until I asked for a refund so until I get my money back or a respone i'll stick around thank you

  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited April 2016
    I am amazed that people still think Mizhena was the problem.

    Newsflash people, no, if Mizhena was a problem for the negative reviews, Krem of Dragon Age would be as well, in a more popular game. But Krem wasn't a problem, and no one cared.

    If you haven't figured it out yet, it was a mistake to take a jab at GamerGate directly through Minsc. That was what caused the "enthusiasm" of people to express negativity.

    Plus, it should be a logical conclusion that people will get pissed off, when you basically try to tell them they need fixing through a particular writer, who managed to basically insult both fans, previous writers and everyone who disagrees even slightly, in one phrase.

    You should have never brought politics like FemFreq or GG in Baldur's Gate. What were you thinking? Unless you wanted publicity, in which case, you got it.

    Believe what you want, express yourselves how you want. But do understand, that when you try to convince everyone that GGers are just "insert insult" here and FF is "fine and just", well we have all kinds of problems, that involve logic.

    You are basically taking political sides and expressing them through a game. Not for Mizhena, again. You should create diverse characters, obviously. But don't jab directly at people and their beliefs, just for the heck of it.

    TL;DR Mizhena and diverse characters are fine. The game is fine. Jabs at people directly are not.

    GodKaiserHell
  • BGLoverBGLover Member Posts: 541
    If one has criticism of Siege of Dragonspear, and that criticism is the presence of bugs, or the lack of certain functionality, or the quality (or otherwise) of the writing, or disappointment with quest lines, or the fact the game was rush-released, or maybe the perceived unnecessary changes to the UI, then this statement by Wizards of the Coast (whilst maybe welcome) doesn't matter in the slightest. Just like the statement by Ed Greenwood didn't matter either.

    But if, on the other hand, the root of ones criticism of Siege of Dragonspear wasn't the bugs, or the functionality, or the quality of the writing, or the quests, or the UI, one might take Wotc's statement as proof that one was right all along. There is a cultural war! They are attacking us and insulting us and there is a political agenda, and it is being shoved down our throats, and Wotc have just demonstrated which side they are on.

    And so for me, whilst I welcome the statement, it won't have a bearing on my view (positive or otherwise) of the game. I judge the game on the merits of the game.

  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 286
    edited April 2016
    Well, aside from the fact that I don't like the direction WotC took with D&D lore and story design from 3E through 5E, there is really nothing wrong in portraying sex change or homossexuality in D&D stories. The problem is using modernisms to ruin the classic ambiance of medieval Sword & Sorcery that D&D had in TSR days.

    Loki, one of the most awesome deities portrayed in myths, transformed into a mare and copulated with a stallion of giant, giving birth to Sleipnir. Do you need more sexuality controversy than this? And the character is freaking awesome. In greek mythology we also have a lot of cases of homosexuality. Come on... Achilles, one the most iconic heroes of our culture, clearly loved Patroclus.

    The problem is modernisms, bad characters and bad and forced stories.

    Ps.: I haven't played Siege of Dragonspear yet. I've just read all the controversy.

    nonlinearcoastTasveryn
  • LorvaylinLorvaylin Member Posts: 41
    Vitor said:



    The problem is modernisms, bad characters and bad and forced stories.

    .

    At least someone get's it, you're going to get called a bigot and transphobe though regardless

  • MornmagorMornmagor Member Posts: 1,160
    edited April 2016
    Purudaya said:

    Mornmagor said:

    I am amazed that people still think Mizhena was the problem.

    Newsflash people, no, if Mizhena was a problem for the negative reviews, Krem of Dragon Age would be as well, in a more popular game. But Krem wasn't a problem, and no one cared.

    If you haven't figured it out yet, it was a mistake to take a jab at GamerGate directly through Minsc. That was what caused the "enthusiasm" of people to express negativity.

    Plus, it should be a logical conclusion that people will get pissed off, when you basically try to tell them they need fixing through a particular writer, who managed to basically insult both fans, previous writers and everyone who disagrees even slightly, in one phrase.

    You should have never brought politics like FemFreq or GG in Baldur's Gate. What were you thinking? Unless you wanted publicity, in which case, you got it.

    The denial has got to stop. There were a litany of posts throughout the forums after release expressing blatant anti-LGBTQ sentiment and asking that Mizhena be removed entirely. People were banned for using anti-trans slurs and obscenities. I'm glad that people didn't review bomb Dragon Age for the inclusion of Krem, but that's not what happened here.

    I'm glad to see that Wizards of the Coast is standing by Beamdog and that trans inclusion is now officially lore-compatible. If people don't think trans characters belong in the realms, they should take it up with WotC.
    It was always lore compatible since 1st edition. Corellon Larethian was always without specific gender, in the deities and demigods book.

    It's not denial. It's not Mizhena that brought all this. It never happened on a much bigger game with a more prominent trans character. Why did it happen now?

    It's logic. You're using anecdotal evidence based on 8-10 vocal bigots that were "insulted" but such an inclusion.
    joluv said:

    Mornmagor said:

    Plus, it should be a logical conclusion that people will get pissed off, when you basically try to tell them they need fixing through a particular writer, who managed to basically insult both fans, previous writers and everyone who disagrees even slightly, in one phrase.

    Whoa, really? What phrase was that? It sounds useful; I didn't even know there was a Power Word, Cry.
    You know nothing, Jon Snow.

    GodKaiserHell
  • PurudayaPurudaya Member Posts: 816
    edited April 2016
    Mornmagor said:

    Purudaya said:

    Mornmagor said:

    I am amazed that people still think Mizhena was the problem.

    Newsflash people, no, if Mizhena was a problem for the negative reviews, Krem of Dragon Age would be as well, in a more popular game. But Krem wasn't a problem, and no one cared.

    If you haven't figured it out yet, it was a mistake to take a jab at GamerGate directly through Minsc. That was what caused the "enthusiasm" of people to express negativity.

    Plus, it should be a logical conclusion that people will get pissed off, when you basically try to tell them they need fixing through a particular writer, who managed to basically insult both fans, previous writers and everyone who disagrees even slightly, in one phrase.

    You should have never brought politics like FemFreq or GG in Baldur's Gate. What were you thinking? Unless you wanted publicity, in which case, you got it.

    The denial has got to stop. There were a litany of posts throughout the forums after release expressing blatant anti-LGBTQ sentiment and asking that Mizhena be removed entirely. People were banned for using anti-trans slurs and obscenities. I'm glad that people didn't review bomb Dragon Age for the inclusion of Krem, but that's not what happened here.

    I'm glad to see that Wizards of the Coast is standing by Beamdog and that trans inclusion is now officially lore-compatible. If people don't think trans characters belong in the realms, they should take it up with WotC.
    It was always lore compatible since 1st edition. Corellon Larethian was always without specific gender, in the deities and demigods book.

    It's not denial. It's not Mizhena that brought all this. It never happened on a much bigger game with a more prominent trans character. Why did it happen now?

    It's logic. You're using anecdotal evidence based on 8-10 vocal bigots that were "insulted" but such an inclusion.
    8-10? Feel free to read through the Metacritic or GoG reviews and tell me that the inclusion of Mizhena had nothing to do with this. If it was just the Minsc line, then why all the talk about SJW "agendas" and "propaganda" in so many of the reviews? Now that I think about it, I believe people were here protesting Mizhena before the Minsc line was even widely reported.

    But if you're arguing that this is only about an Easter egg from Minsc and a few quotes from one writer, that's almost worse in revealing how extremely thin skinned gamergate is for a group that claims to be about free speech.

    Again: I'm just glad WotC is on the record supporting Beamdog. But if you want to continue attacking a developer that is already removing the precious Minsc line and changing the trans character that apparently nobody cared about, go right ahead.

    killerrabbitBGLoverGenderNihilismGirdleValamirCleaver
  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 286
    edited April 2016
    joluv said:

    Vitor said:

    I haven't played Siege of Dragonspear yet. I've just read all the controversy.

    Are you a follower of Ilmater?
    I would follow no deity if I lived in the Forgotten Realms. I'd defy the gods.
    Also, I have SoD. But I couldn't played it yet, because I heated the new UI and can't stand the bugs. I'm waiting for a new patch.

    But, listen. I didn't said that Siege of Dragonspear has bad writing (and I couldn't, because I haven't played it yet). I'm just saying that keeping arguing that the problem was the mere presence of a transexual character is pointless. You should be discussing if she's a bad or good character.

    I consider Nera a really bad character, and I want her out of my game. I didn't liked a lot of beamdog content in the enhanced editions of BG1 and BG2... So, by my previous experiences, I tend to think this "Mizhena" might be a bad character.

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    @Vitor: It would be easy to misunderstand from just reading the controversy, but Mizhena is mostly a nothing character. She's a cleric who provides healing services and has a few optional lines of dialogue. It's like asking whether Nalin is a good character; like Mizhena, he's so peripheral that the question barely even means anything. Her level of involvement doesn't even compare to Neera's.

    I was joking around before, but seriously, I recommend giving the game a real shot. I haven't run into any serious bugs, and the UI is actually kind of nice (unlike BG2EE's, which is currently a mess). Even in its current state, the game is a lot more fun than reading this stuff. I honestly think that people are exaggerating the technical problems because they're mad about other stuff. It's in pretty good shape.

    ganglerkillerrabbitValamirCleaverillathid
  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 286
    joluv said:

    I was joking around before, but seriously, I recommend giving the game a real shot. I haven't run into any serious bugs, and the UI is actually kind of nice (unlike BG2EE's, which is currently a mess). Even in its current state, the game is a lot more fun than reading this stuff. I honestly think that people are exaggerating the technical problems because they're mad about other stuff. It's in pretty good shape.

    But I need those equipment and stuff sounds in my inventory... I feel the mood so could without those sounds... :/

    BillyH666
  • mzacharymzachary Member Posts: 106
    Lorvaylin said:

    Yet more virtue signalling, you people just don't get it do you. There's no point it seems you never will

    Given that there are people who take offense at a trans character simply being there without the setting making a big deal out of it, it seems fitting to make such a statement. I am sure that as a person who has no problem at all with trans people, you have no problem with such a statement.

    killerrabbitValamirCleaver
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 5,157


    A lady-warrior in samurai-inspired armor!

    She wears that massive hair needle under her helmet?! Woah! That must be uncomfortable as hell... :confounded:

    killerrabbit
  • LorvaylinLorvaylin Member Posts: 41
    mzachary said:

    Lorvaylin said:

    Yet more virtue signalling, you people just don't get it do you. There's no point it seems you never will

    Given that there are people who take offense at a trans character simply being there without the setting making a big deal out of it, it seems fitting to make such a statement. I am sure that as a person who has no problem at all with trans people, you have no problem with such a statement.
    Corwin and Glint the first two new recruitable characters are both gay, that's a 100% gayness margin from the off, it's just ridiculous, I didn't mind Dorn being gay though I thought it was a bit gimmicky.
    it just doesn't feel like a realistic world anymore it's like beamdog have added something into the water of the sword coast.

  • BelleSorciereBelleSorciere Member Posts: 1,900
    Lorvaylin said:

    mzachary said:

    Lorvaylin said:

    Yet more virtue signalling, you people just don't get it do you. There's no point it seems you never will

    Given that there are people who take offense at a trans character simply being there without the setting making a big deal out of it, it seems fitting to make such a statement. I am sure that as a person who has no problem at all with trans people, you have no problem with such a statement.
    Corwin and Glint the first two new recruitable characters are both gay, that's a 100% gayness margin from the off, it's just ridiculous, I didn't mind Dorn being gay though I thought it was a bit gimmicky.
    it just doesn't feel like a realistic world anymore it's like beamdog have added something into the water of the sword coast.
    Gee, they added a lesbian and a gay man to the cast. Maybe it's because people play more than one gender and some people might like to have same-sex romanceable options for their character whether they chose male or female.

    Now I don't know the quality of the romances (I've heard Corwin was a bit sudden about bringing up romance), but having two gay characters is perfectly reasonable.

    killerrabbitganglerGenderNihilismGirdle
  • minsc4prezminsc4prez Member Posts: 97
    Lorvaylin said:

    mzachary said:

    Lorvaylin said:

    Yet more virtue signalling, you people just don't get it do you. There's no point it seems you never will

    Gi

    Corwin and Glint the first two new recruitable characters are both gay, that's a 100% gayness margin from the off, it's just ridiculous, I didn't mind Dorn being gay though I thought it was a bit gimmicky.
    it just doesn't feel like a realistic world anymore it's like beamdog have added something into the water of the sword coast.
    i thought Corwin was bi, but i suppose we had Haer Dhalis who was bi too so it wouldn't be the first. Also yeah, the whole Dorn thing was kinda creepy, he kinda gave off a rapey vibe, if i remember right wouldn't he attack you if you turned him down? or maybe that was just a glitch

  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,136
    Lorvaylin said:

    Corwin and Glint the first two new recruitable characters are both gay, that's a 100% gayness margin from the off, it's just ridiculous,

    Making two new gay friends in a row? Get real! Just ridiculous.
    Lorvaylin said:

    I didn't mind Dorn being gay though I thought it was a bit gimmicky.

    Homosexuality: a bit gimmicky.
    Lorvaylin said:

    it just doesn't feel like a realistic world anymore it's like beamdog have added something into the water of the sword coast.

    Uh-oh, the Sword Coast isn't realistic anymore? Don't tell the Ashirukuru; they'll be devastated.

    illathidAyiekie
  • minsc4prezminsc4prez Member Posts: 97
    edited April 2016
    gangler said:



    There's still only 4 non-straight companions out of, what, fifty? To say nothing of the vast array of straight characters who you can't recruit. If Beamdog made 5 more expansions without writing a single new straight character The Realms would still not suffer for lack of heterosexuality.

    That'd be hilarious, i can see it now.
    "BeamDog has come under controversy once again after having the well known character Drizzt Do'Urden come out as a homosexual in their latest expansion called Baldurs Gate: Dont drop the soap. In an interview with Kotaku they had this to say "Yeah, Drizzt is gay and we dont give a f- what anyone has to say about it", while reviews of the game were mixed at first, Pc Gamer had this to say about it "It's the worst game since Shaq-fu". More on this developing story at 11'

  • LorvaylinLorvaylin Member Posts: 41
    edited April 2016
    Beamdog created 7 new characters and 3 of them are gay, that's a 42% gayness margin, the real world has a 3.4% margin.


    it is totally disproportionate and as a straight person it just roll you're eyes and get on with it as usual, and yes it does ruin the character, I was looking forward to having glint in my party now I just don't care sorry if you think it's because I'm a bigot it's not, it's because as the captain of a fighting force I want my crew to be thinking about the enemy and not my 18/00 str steel buns.

  • PhilhelmPhilhelm Member Posts: 473
    edited April 2016
    Mornmagor said:

    TL;DR Mizhena and diverse characters are fine. The game is fine. Jabs at people directly are not.

    I think what some people fail to realize is that it's not necessarily the particular subject (in this case, a trans character being included within a video game) that gets people's goats, but the rabid element within the SJW crowd that have gone off the deep end with everything. There's no room for even the slightest deviancy from their positions, so you either outright celebrate their cause or be branded a bigot (all while they show open prejudice against "cis het white males," the face of their boogey-man). Typically, even if I were inclined to agree with one of their positions, they'll inevitably take the position to the Twilight Zone.

    I have two daughters and I told my wife (sorry, I have two XX-chromosome progeny, and I mansplained my patriarchal view to my cis het XX-chromosome, contractual life-partner) that we should raise them to be gender neutral so that CPS doesn't come take them for abuse (patriarchally forcing pink dresses upon them) in ten years once the world gets dragged off the deep end.

    Tasveryn
  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 286
    Lorvaylin said:

    Beamdog created 7 new characters and 3 of them are gay, that's a 42% gayness margin, the real world has a 3.4% margin.

    4 with Hexxat.

    Philhelm
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