Sure, it'll be great once we've finally solved the problems of poverty and hunger forever, but I bet we're still gonna see the obligatory beggar character everywhere in RPGs...typical.
I would say most people annoyed with the writing of the character. As I previously stated its a world of magic and there are several spells, powers, potions and deities who could swap your gender. You find the Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity, you also meet Melicamp who has been turned into a chicken and a number of dragons that can turn into humans to name a few examples. To be honest most people would be unimpressed by such a simple change for a person. They could have even added a dialogue to represent this. If you were playing a evil/rude person they could end the conversation by saying they'd seen more impressive magic elsewhere etc.
In regards to the dialogue the other issue people are having is that; in a game with multiple options to respond to NPCs you can only say nice things to Mizhena which is rather stilted. And let us remember that this is a game where you can (if you chose to) threaten people (including women and children), kill beggars and generally be a horrible person.
My point is, could there be more roleplay options? Absolutely, and that would always be the case. But why is it that no one complained about a lack of evil options until a transgendered character was introduced?
Although you couldn't have known this I emailed a 5 or 6 page document to Beamdog a few years ago (before BG1 EE was even released) addressing the lack of evil options as well as bugs and a lack of a pure class thief throughout the franchise. These were just a few of the issues I raised. Unfortunately little of what I suggested was ever addressed, even the most basic of bug fixes was ignored.
Fair enough. Though I've seen quite a few similar complaints here over the last few days from people who (most likely) hadn't done that. Through the community at large, it certainly wasn't considered anywhere near as egregious as it has suddenly become revolving around the transgender character.
The point I was making is that in many in game situations you can be rude etc which is lacking for the new NPC. Therefore a number of people have interpreted this as shielding a character based on their gender identity/orientation. It therefore gives more fuel to the controversy which could be easily corrected for everyone's enjoyment by fleshing out a character.
Furthermore knowing a number of people with various gender identities/orientations they tend not to discuss it in general and certainly not to strangers. It comes across as poor writing. Most of the time people learn about each others personal life through subtle and passing comments etc.
That is true, and I'm not opposed to her getting more fleshed out, but I don't think it is really necessary. In the real world, it isn't something that people just blurt out upon meeting them, but throughout BG many characters give personal information right off the bat. I saw someone else give the example of the locked house in Nashkel. You break in during the middle of the night and the woman there just tells you about her missing and presumed dead husband (that's before you suggest looking for him).
Mizhena also doesn't seem like she considers being transgender to be a deeply sensitive thing. She's pretty well adjusted about it. It's something she dealt with, now she's owned it as part of her. It seems like a pretty positive, confident image to present. She even chose an unusual name as a result of it. As even many of the detractors have been saying, in Faerun, being trans isn't necessarily a big deal - there's belts and spells and potions and so forth that can change a persons sex. There's no reason that it would have such a strong stigma attached. So I don't think it's really out of character for her to act like it's a pretty benign thing. And just to point out something that seems to be ignored a lot, she doesn't just say it immediately, she gets asked about her name and it comes up as a related subject.
Perhaps not the best writing, perhaps could be better. But it doesn't feel out of place in a the world that she inhabits, nor the way conversations are typically handled in the game. At least not to me.
I've played Dragon Age, and the huge amount of LGBT people there didn't annoy me. I took it like it was part of the world. What annoys me is that it is now apparently a trend among all RPG ; now all RPG promotes LGBT with 1 transgender NPC per game explaining their personal fight as a transgender person. I'm an open minded person, and thus, shoving LGBT acceptance in my mouth equates to stagnation. What if I got over LGBT people 15 years ago? Can we move on? Apparently not, because as they say, it all cater to the lowest common denominator.
As long as there will be intolerant people in the world, we will be force fed the same thing over and over? Ugh. And given the social justice warrior morally righteous self ego pumping, even after the whole world finally accepts LGBT people, will we still see transgender NPC's as political statements just to amuse said ego pumping? Ugh!
Whatever.
The "huge amount" is an exaggeration. Plus for the most part their queerness was optional. The issue isn't so much about the presence of LGBT characters(though for many it is, as any inclusion is automatically bowing to the SJW agenda, DA got tons of shit for that) but that a lot of cis hets seem to believe it should be presented in a certain way which is quite limiting and robs us of our narratives.
In Dragon Age Inquisition, 50 % of romance-able partners are LGBT. Fifty fifty as they say, a perfectly fair distribution of sexuality! But a lot of the Dragon Age artistic staff was gay, so it's normal that it reflects in their art. I don't think Baldur's Gate's staff is mostly gay like with Dragon Age though. And it shows by how clumsy their integration of a transgender npc really is.
I don't think Baldur's Gate's staff is mostly gay like with Dragon Age though. And it shows by how clumsy their integration of a transgender npc really is.
Oh for sure. Actually, I bet the bulk of the criticism has come from people who just think Beamdog should implement more aggressive affirmative action policies vis-à-vis sexual orientation and identity to facilitate the hiring of more LGBTQ developers.
Oh for sure. Actually, I bet the bulk of the criticism has come from people who just think Beamdog should implement more aggressive affirmative action policies vis-à-vis sexual orientation and identity to facilitate the hiring of more LGBTQ developers.
I don't know. Asking someone's sexual orientation during a job interview sounds like dipping in hot water. Sounds like asking for a lawsuit. I suppose said information should be exchanged in a subtle manner. Perhaps there is a dressing code for that, pink business suits or similar. Or perhaps job flyers could be handed out at specific locations only, like gay bars and gay quarters.
First of, great work, great job, wonderful assets and running a 2 decades old engine today is an incredible thing to accomplish!
I'd like to five you my humble opinion on something I hope will be avoided in the future of Baldur's Gate EE content It's mostly the usage of modern slang. It's constantly kicking me out of immersion. The environment bring me back, my love for Baldur's Gate keep me in, but the writing is making it feel a little off. Since it's in the middle of 2 10 decades old games, doing a playthrough including all 3 games makes it "akward" in termes of general reading feelings
Still, it's a wonderful work.
Also, talking about writing, It may be safer to avoid taking a position (any position) on modern debates inside a game such as Baldur's Gate It's not the place to have a debate in the game, it's off target I'd personnally like to see characters profoundly convinced in their enequities because the role playing system is not taking one mind set, it's considering all the good and the evil of it's world.
Again, I wish you all a great continuation in developing Baldur's Gate. End game, IMO, you have done more than most company could have done! By far!
We’ve received feedback around Mizhena, a supporting character who reveals she is transgender. In retrospect, it would have been better served if we had introduced a transgender character with more development. This is a lesson we will be carrying forward in our development as creators and we will be improving this character in a future update.
Dang, I was just getting ready to submit my awesome story idea for a trans character in Baldur's Gate.
Thank you Trent for releasing a great expansion. And thank you all for caring about your community. ... There's no reason you can't still submit that idea! I'm sure the community would love to hear it.
Here is an idea for you. ...
A male wizard born in a woman's body. Researching a spell to transform himself into his preferred gender. After years of research the spell is ready. When he is about to cast it, he gets bitten by a vampire and gets infected. The regenerative powers of vamyrism keeps the spell from working. Can get quests out of that too.
Oh Superb! It could have a cross reference with Edwin Nether Scroll!!!
... The point of the statement was to address the controversy, not to address the state of the game.
Informing your playerbase about a plethora of bugs isn't worth mentioning in an official statement? You gotta be kidding. Oh and having to admit that 1 of your main features beeing multiplayer isn't working at launch is pathetic.
1: The main writer outright claims BG to be sexist, insulting the game and its fans in one strike?
I played Baldur's Gate when it was new. I love the series.
I do not feel the game or its fans were insulted. Seriously. People are getting bent WAY out of shape over that. I mean, it's your prerogative to feel insulted, but could you stop claiming that this was, like, some literal slap in the face to everyone who loved BG?
BG/2 had some stuff that's easy to read as sexist in them. BG/2 had some interminably stupid stuff in them. BG/2 had some atrocious writing in them.
I don't mind some political correctness, but does this mean that the world of Baldur's Gate must be completely devoid of sexist characters? Such people should also exist in the Forgotten Realms, so removing any hint of such characters doesn't seem like a good way to go either.
A more balanced world, where all viewpoints can be represented? Sure. But this includes the less savory ones as well.
Yeah, I definitely see that point. I think they justified the negative reviews on metacritic and elsewhere as a flood of GG hate, and I have no knowledge on that, but Steam had plenty of negative reviews too and requires that you own the game to review it.
Correction - there are far more positive then negative reviews on Steam: Positive (179)\Negative (71) . HOWEVER! The negative reviews were highly promoted by GG. And to click "yes, it was helpful" you do not need to own game. This way you can keep all negative reviews on top of the list.
I don't mind some political correctness, but does this mean that the world of Baldur's Gate must be completely devoid of sexist characters? Such people should also exist in the Forgotten Realms, so removing any hint of such characters doesn't seem like a good way to go either.
A more balanced world, where all viewpoints can be represented? Sure. But this includes the less savory ones as well.
But, but... That would be asking for video game writing to be more like literature, where we have controversial works like "Lolita," and "Lady Chatterley's Lover", and not one big ingratiating circle jerk in a safe space full of yummy treats and fuzzy blankies. XD lol
I don't mind some political correctness, but does this mean that the world of Baldur's Gate must be completely devoid of sexist characters? Such people should also exist in the Forgotten Realms, so removing any hint of such characters doesn't seem like a good way to go either.
A more balanced world, where all viewpoints can be represented? Sure. But this includes the less savory ones as well.
There is a difference between a character who is written to be a sexist and a character who is a product of sexism.
Yeah, I definitely see that point. I think they justified the negative reviews on metacritic and elsewhere as a flood of GG hate, and I have no knowledge on that, but Steam had plenty of negative reviews too and requires that you own the game to review it.
Correction - there are far more positive then negative reviews on Steam: Positive (179)\Negative (71) . HOWEVER! The negative reviews were highly promoted by GG. And to click "yes, it was helpful" you do not need to own game. This way you can keep all negative reviews on top of the list.
Even at 28.4% negativity, that's very bad. And do you have proof that GG is responsible for any number of negative reviews? I'm genuinely curious. I also assert that *if* GG did anything, so too would anti-GG. But it's all rhetoric without evidence. But GG isn't the issue, I wish people like you would stop bringing them up to silence any criticism. Game's can't get negative reviews anymore? It's always a conspiracy? I'm skeptical.
Yeah, I definitely see that point. I think they justified the negative reviews on metacritic and elsewhere as a flood of GG hate, and I have no knowledge on that, but Steam had plenty of negative reviews too and requires that you own the game to review it.
Correction - there are far more positive then negative reviews on Steam: Positive (179)\Negative (71) . HOWEVER! The negative reviews were highly promoted by GG. And to click "yes, it was helpful" you do not need to own game. This way you can keep all negative reviews on top of the list.
Even at 28.4% negativity, that's very bad. And do you have proof that GG is responsible for any number of negative reviews? I'm genuinely curious.
I think the proof is in the content of the reviews on Metacritic
Yeah, I definitely see that point. I think they justified the negative reviews on metacritic and elsewhere as a flood of GG hate, and I have no knowledge on that, but Steam had plenty of negative reviews too and requires that you own the game to review it.
Correction - there are far more positive then negative reviews on Steam: Positive (179)\Negative (71) . HOWEVER! The negative reviews were highly promoted by GG. And to click "yes, it was helpful" you do not need to own game. This way you can keep all negative reviews on top of the list.
Even at 28.4% negativity, that's very bad. And do you have proof that GG is responsible for any number of negative reviews? I'm genuinely curious.
I think the proof is in the content of the reviews on Metacritic
And I could say positive reviews on Steam are proof of anti GG merely buying and reviewing the game positively just to support a trans character, as I saw suggested on multiple feminist blogs. But alas, there is reasonable doubt with both of our evidence, and thus we only proved we can't prove anything. But fun talking about it.
Yeah, I definitely see that point. I think they justified the negative reviews on metacritic and elsewhere as a flood of GG hate, and I have no knowledge on that, but Steam had plenty of negative reviews too and requires that you own the game to review it.
Correction - there are far more positive then negative reviews on Steam: Positive (179)\Negative (71) . HOWEVER! The negative reviews were highly promoted by GG. And to click "yes, it was helpful" you do not need to own game. This way you can keep all negative reviews on top of the list.
Even at 28.4% negativity, that's very bad. And do you have proof that GG is responsible for any number of negative reviews? I'm genuinely curious. I also assert that *if* GG did anything, so too would anti-GG. But it's all rhetoric without evidence. But GG isn't the issue, I wish people like you would stop bringing them up to silence any criticism. Game's can't get negative reviews anymore? It's always a conspiracy? I'm skeptical.
All I have is their word (GGers) that they did it (sorry, not going to dig up all the posts), supported by facts like sudden number of identical reviews (in comparison to older and bigger games), fact that there are more negative reviews where you do not have to have a copy of the game and other "minor" indications. But - true! - no numbers.
Games CAN and SHOULD have negative reviews as well as positive. But those reviews should be because someone did not like the game, not the words of one of the developer in some interview.
GGers or not - what happen was an attack on the game totally unjustified and very an-fair, that can hurt the only company working with BG. Since they had something big coming and even invited one of the best game-writer (DG) to work on that potential project I am very upset by the possibility that that attack can cost me and the others some good game in the future.
@Mirandel Still rhetoric. Regardless of my beliefs, I'll continue to play the Devil's advocate because people continue to spout a narrative as if it's fact. If what you assert is true, there is evidence to be found, and finding it will undoubtedly strengthen your claims.
I don't mind some political correctness, but does this mean that the world of Baldur's Gate must be completely devoid of sexist characters? Such people should also exist in the Forgotten Realms, so removing any hint of such characters doesn't seem like a good way to go either.
A more balanced world, where all viewpoints can be represented? Sure. But this includes the less savory ones as well.
There is a difference between a character who is written to be a sexist and a character who is a product of sexism.
Yeah, but this is rather a matter aside. I mean, who's to say that Safana was written the way she was because the author was a "sexist". Without knowing the author's intent, folks are just going to be speculating.
The sultry, independent woman who uses sex to get her way does, in fact, describe some actual women who inhabit planet earth. Who's to say the author is sexist for including such a person?
All I'm concerned with in making my earlier comment is that the game world is allowed to contain all types of people, which makes it more rich and interesting. Determining writer motivation is a completely separate topic.
@Mirandel Still rhetoric. Regardless of my beliefs, I'll continue to play the Devil's advocate because people continue to spout a narrative as if it's fact. If what you assert is true, there is evidence to be found, and finding it will undoubtedly strengthen your claims.
At this point several people have pointed you to the evidence and you just insist it's not evidence.
You keep saying "there was no campaign of negative reviews" despite it being blatantly obvious to anyone who takes even a cursory look at said reviews.
@Mirandel Still rhetoric. Regardless of my beliefs, I'll continue to play the Devil's advocate because people continue to spout a narrative as if it's fact. If what you assert is true, there is evidence to be found, and finding it will undoubtedly strengthen your claims.
At this point several people have pointed you to the evidence and you just insist it's not evidence.
You keep saying "there was no campaign of negative reviews" despite it being blatantly obvious to anyone who takes even a cursory look at said reviews.
Actually I never said that so please don't put words in my mouth. You don't know what evidence is. If you can say, well, maybe this one group did this one thing and maybe this other group also did that same thing for their side and here's why I think that - that's not evidence, it's your opinion. There is very reasonable doubt. And I took much more than a "cursory look" at the reviews, I'm actually quite confident I've read completely every single article on SoD written in English up to this moment.
You don't know what evidence is. If you can say, well, maybe this one group did this one thing and maybe this other group also did that same thing for their side and here's why I think that - that's not evidence, it's your opinion. There is very reasonable doubt.
This isn't a court of law for someone accused of committing a crime. If you use some absurd standard of evidence, then you cast doubt onto any assertion. Yet anyone using basic good judgment can see that there has been review bombing by gamergate people.
Yet anyone using basic good judgment can see that there has been review bombing by gamergate people.
Like the basic good judgment as a developer to not mention anything about bugs in their official statement when there are plenty of well written reviews listing plenty of them?
Yet anyone using basic good judgment can see that there has been review bombing by gamergate people.
Like the basic good judgment as a developer to not mention anything about bugs in their official statement when there are plenty of well written review listing plenty of bugs?
I never commented on that, and really have no opinion on the matter.
Nice name though. I had an Icarus AI in my game, but it kept critically failing when rolling for the Fly spell.
You don't know what evidence is. If you can say, well, maybe this one group did this one thing and maybe this other group also did that same thing for their side and here's why I think that - that's not evidence, it's your opinion. There is very reasonable doubt.
This isn't a court of law for someone accused of committing a crime. If you use some absurd standard of evidence, then you cast doubt onto any assertion. Yet anyone using basic good judgment can see that there has been review bombing by gamergate people.
This isn't an absurd standard of evidence. I'm a scientist, you have not rejected the null hypothesis. If there's evidence for one side of your argument, there's equal evidence for the other side.
Comments
Mizhena also doesn't seem like she considers being transgender to be a deeply sensitive thing. She's pretty well adjusted about it. It's something she dealt with, now she's owned it as part of her. It seems like a pretty positive, confident image to present. She even chose an unusual name as a result of it. As even many of the detractors have been saying, in Faerun, being trans isn't necessarily a big deal - there's belts and spells and potions and so forth that can change a persons sex. There's no reason that it would have such a strong stigma attached. So I don't think it's really out of character for her to act like it's a pretty benign thing. And just to point out something that seems to be ignored a lot, she doesn't just say it immediately, she gets asked about her name and it comes up as a related subject.
Perhaps not the best writing, perhaps could be better. But it doesn't feel out of place in a the world that she inhabits, nor the way conversations are typically handled in the game. At least not to me.
Ugh. Whatever. I'm sure they'll fix it in the sequel.
No. Of course they didn't. I guess I should try a different series.
God's sake. Alright, alright. The beggar is a medieval fantasy trope, yeah? Maybe if I move into a different genre...
OH COME ON.
So four.
First of, great work, great job, wonderful assets and running a 2 decades old engine today is an incredible thing to accomplish!
I'd like to five you my humble opinion on something I hope will be avoided in the future of Baldur's Gate EE content
Still, it's a wonderful work.
Also, talking about writing, It may be safer to avoid taking a position (any position) on modern debates inside a game such as Baldur's Gate
Again, I wish you all a great continuation in developing Baldur's Gate. End game, IMO, you have done more than most company could have done! By far!
You gotta be kidding.
Oh and having to admit that 1 of your main features beeing multiplayer isn't working at launch is pathetic.
I do not feel the game or its fans were insulted. Seriously. People are getting bent WAY out of shape over that. I mean, it's your prerogative to feel insulted, but could you stop claiming that this was, like, some literal slap in the face to everyone who loved BG?
BG/2 had some stuff that's easy to read as sexist in them. BG/2 had some interminably stupid stuff in them. BG/2 had some atrocious writing in them.
*shrugs*
A more balanced world, where all viewpoints can be represented? Sure. But this includes the less savory ones as well.
I also assert that *if* GG did anything, so too would anti-GG. But it's all rhetoric without evidence. But GG isn't the issue, I wish people like you would stop bringing them up to silence any criticism. Game's can't get negative reviews anymore? It's always a conspiracy? I'm skeptical.
Anyway, this could always happen to Beamdog too:
https://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2016/03/31/sword-coast-legends-developers-n-space-close-shop/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+rockpapershotgun/steam+(Rock,+Paper,+Shotgun:+Steam+RSS)
Games CAN and SHOULD have negative reviews as well as positive. But those reviews should be because someone did not like the game, not the words of one of the developer in some interview.
GGers or not - what happen was an attack on the game totally unjustified and very an-fair, that can hurt the only company working with BG. Since they had something big coming and even invited one of the best game-writer (DG) to work on that potential project I am very upset by the possibility that that attack can cost me and the others some good game in the future.
The sultry, independent woman who uses sex to get her way does, in fact, describe some actual women who inhabit planet earth. Who's to say the author is sexist for including such a person?
All I'm concerned with in making my earlier comment is that the game world is allowed to contain all types of people, which makes it more rich and interesting. Determining writer motivation is a completely separate topic.
You keep saying "there was no campaign of negative reviews" despite it being blatantly obvious to anyone who takes even a cursory look at said reviews.
You don't know what evidence is. If you can say, well, maybe this one group did this one thing and maybe this other group also did that same thing for their side and here's why I think that - that's not evidence, it's your opinion. There is very reasonable doubt.
And I took much more than a "cursory look" at the reviews, I'm actually quite confident I've read completely every single article on SoD written in English up to this moment.
Nice name though. I had an Icarus AI in my game, but it kept critically failing when rolling for the Fly spell.