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Kangaxx the Demilich and Daystar +2

During the fight with Kangaxx in his demilich form, is immune to Daystar, though shouldn't it be +4 against him since he's evil alignment? No matter what spells i throw at him, nothing seems to work. I think that the limit to Kangaxx's immunity is +4 weapons? Is this working as intended?
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  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    maybe they recently changed that, I remember the last time I used daystar on him in his demilich form it worked, but if you downloaded the new patch then maybe they changed daystar to be a +2 weapon instead of the +4 weapon it was hitting as

    and when it comes to spell casting on his demilich form:
    demiliches are immune to all spells of 9th level and lower, so spells will never affect him im afraid
  • Maick90Maick90 Member Posts: 52
    Thanks m8. It would be interesting to hear, have they changed the stats of Daystar. I was eventually able to kill him with some Fire-potions (it took only two of those, and after the first one he tried to run away :D)
  • KorbuKorbu Member Posts: 61
    edited April 2016
    Just before 2.0 released, i fought Kangaxx on SCS with a higher level party (my PC Blackguard had just got HLAs), and it took me at least 30 attempts to kill him. I had my PC Blackguard, Korgan, Dorn, Viconia, Hexxat and Edwin. Edwin had to devote all of his spell slots to Breaches, Ruby Rays, Khelben's Warding Whip, etc. Kangaxx would start the fight fully buffed, and had Contingencys and Triggers in Lich Form, then would regain all his buffs and Contingencys/Triggers when he went into Demilich Form. It would take an insane amount of buff-dispels in order to bring down his defenses even for a few seconds. Kangaxx would cast Protection from Magic Weapons constantly, making even my +5 Ir'revrykal useless against him.
    I finally beat him unexpectedly, by using the "Sun Ray" ability of Daystar after i had brought down his defenses. It was quite a shock to see him so easily killed by that ability, after i had been fighting him for hours.
  • matricematrice Member Posts: 86
    Since when is breach affecting lich ?
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    and more so, how are spells affecting the demilich form? the demilich forms is immune to
    of all spells of 9th level or lower
    SCS must have some tweaks?
  • woowoovoodoowoowoovoodoo Member Posts: 150
    matrice said:

    Since when is breach affecting lich ?

    sarevok57 said:

    and more so, how are spells affecting the demilich form? the demilich forms is immune to

    of all spells of 9th level or lower
    SCS must have some tweaks?
    SCS changes.
    More consistent Breach spell (always affects liches and rakshasas; doesn't penetrate Spell Turning)

    Although it isn't documented, the 5th level spell Breach will remove a creature's combat protections (such as Stoneskin) even if that creature is protected by Spell Deflection, Spell Turning or Spell Trap; it will not, however, affect creatures like liches or rakshasas, because they are immune to spells of level 5 or below. This component removes both features: Breach now bounces off Spell Turning (etc.), but it affects even those creatures immune to "normal" 5th level spells.


    This component (which requires "smarter mages") makes demiliches more like their third-edition versions. The demilich Imprisonment ability has been nerfed: it now grants a saving throw vs. death at -5, although it also causes level drain even on a successful save. Demiliches are still 100% immune to magic, but they are not additionally immune to spells of L6 or above (this means that high-level antimagic works on them).

    On the other hand, demiliches are now by-the-book 35th level wizards with significantly accelerated casting times (and the ability to use their Imprisonment ability in the same round that they cast a spell). (Only the demilich in WK has access to HLAs.) The net effect should be to make demiliches quite significantly more dangerous.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,211
    The "Spellcasting Demiliches" component of SCS is widely regarded as one of the most challenging ones, though as mentioned there are other changes to demiliches that also alter the way you fight them.

    Then again, they are supposed to be just about the most dangerous enemy you can face. Short of divine or quasi-divine beings, a demilich is about as powerful as it gets for spellcasting, and the vanilla versions did not really reflect that. Instead of being incredibly cunning and intelligent, they were mindless Imprisonment-turrets that got folded over sideways by a single cast of Spell Immunity.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592

    The "Spellcasting Demiliches" component of SCS is widely regarded as one of the most challenging ones, though as mentioned there are other changes to demiliches that also alter the way you fight them.

    Then again, they are supposed to be just about the most dangerous enemy you can face. Short of divine or quasi-divine beings, a demilich is about as powerful as it gets for spellcasting, and the vanilla versions did not really reflect that. Instead of being incredibly cunning and intelligent, they were mindless Imprisonment-turrets that got folded over sideways by a single cast of Spell Immunity.

    It is one of the most challenging, but it certainly is one of the most interesting one, considering how stupid are vanilla demiliches. I do agree that demiliches should much stronger than they are in vanilla, especially Kangaxx, because he is a unique, allegedly very powerful demilich. I have always felt like Kangaxx was the real final boss of SoA, or close to this, much like Demogorgon in ToB.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    There are actually two demi-liches in SoA, and the other one is potentially even more powerful than Kangaax. It just doesn't want its secret known.
  • DaevelonDaevelon Member Posts: 605
    Nuin said:

    There are actually two demi-liches in SoA, and the other one is potentially even more powerful than Kangaax. It just doesn't want its secret known.

    As i remember he is not in SoA but
    in watcher's keep, a component of ToB. Ok, you can fight him in SoA but technically he is for higher levels
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    edited April 2016
    He/she/it is definitely in SoA. You're talking about a different demi-lich.
    As for Kangaax, he was imprisoned and surely the mages guarding him took steps to keep his powers in check so it makes sense that he's weaker than the average demi-lich when you encounter him. The other demi-lich, AFAIK, was probably not supposed to die at all. The fact that he/she/it does is either an act or something the devs didn't expect would happen. Granted, you can kill Drizzt and suck Elminster's brains out so meh.
  • KorbuKorbu Member Posts: 61


    On the other hand, demiliches are now by-the-book 35th level wizards with significantly accelerated casting times (and the ability to use their Imprisonment ability in the same round that they cast a spell). (Only the demilich in WK has access to HLAs.) The net effect should be to make demiliches quite significantly more dangerous.

    When i fought Kangaxx with SCS, he had HLAs. He was summoning Planetars, casting Dragon Breath and Energy Blades.
  • Victor_Creed_SFVVictor_Creed_SFV Member Posts: 609
    Nuin said:

    He/she/it is definitely in SoA. You're talking about a different demi-lich.
    As for Kangaax, he was imprisoned and surely the mages guarding him took steps to keep his powers in check so it makes sense that he's weaker than the average demi-lich when you encounter him. The other demi-lich, AFAIK, was probably not supposed to die at all. The fact that he/she/it does is either an act or something the devs didn't expect would happen. Granted, you can kill Drizzt and suck Elminster's brains out so meh.

    The two Liches in the Underdark both seem stronger than Kangaxx.
    At least the imprisoned Lich (not in Drow City) is higher level than Kangaxx, since it's fear affects higher level charnames
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    No, Kangaax, the other SoA demilich and Irenicus are the highest level casters in SoA.

    Kangaax is actually very hard to beat if you don't use metaknowledge.
  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    the other soa demilich which i havent faced is actually undefeatable without meta right?

    It's the twisted rune fight right?
  • woowoovoodoowoowoovoodoo Member Posts: 150
    wubble said:

    the other soa demilich which i havent faced is actually undefeatable without meta right?

    It's the twisted rune fight right?
    Nuin said:

    It just doesn't want its secret known.

    I believe there is no better way for a fair demilich folk to hide than to polymorph themselves to a squirrel. I was always suspicious to those squirrels.
  • PteranPteran Member Posts: 388

    wubble said:

    the other soa demilich which i havent faced is actually undefeatable without meta right?

    It's the twisted rune fight right?
    Nuin said:

    It just doesn't want its secret known.

    I believe there is no better way for a fair demilich folk to hide than to polymorph themselves to a squirrel. I was always suspicious to those squirrels.
    That's actually a pretty ingenious way to hide your lichhood. Just polymorph yourself into something more socially acceptable!
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    The Twisted Run guys can be defeated by a strong party, and you should have some idea of how powerful they are if you follow the Reijek Hidesman questline to get to them.

    I thought I already gave it away.
    Nuin said:

    No, Kangaax, the other SoA demilich and Irenicus are the highest level casters in SoA.

    Most BG players know her as Zallanora. FR fans and people who've been playing this game for too long know her as Shoon VII, "one of the most wicked rulers and one of the most powerful spellcasters to ever have lived in Faerûn".
  • PteranPteran Member Posts: 388
    I've been playing for 15+ years and this is literally the first time I've heard of this Zallanora person o.O
  • Victor_Creed_SFVVictor_Creed_SFV Member Posts: 609
    Wait, the fight you trigger with a rogue stone?
    That's harder due to other reasons than the Lich alone. ;P
  • UnpersonUnperson Member Posts: 29
    edited April 2016
    Pteran said:

    I've been playing for 15+ years and this is literally the first time I've heard of this Zallanora person o.O

    She (he? it?) is currently hiding in plain sight with the Cowled Wizards, posing as a delightfully naïve elven apprentice. If you keep pissing them off by casting in the streets without a license -and killing their doods à la Irenicus- eventually she will show up, accompanied of another high-ranking cowl called Khollynnus Paac and a small army of mooks to teach you a lesson.

    Considering how much easier it is to simply pay for the license to use magic than having to deal with seemingly endless waves of Cowled Wizards dropping by at the worst possible moments, and how overpowering the Zallanora encounter is, it's probably safe to say that devs back then didn't expect many players to even encounter her, let alone kill her. SCS reflects this by making her one of the few select Mages that get HLAs in SoA. Fun times...
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    edited April 2016
    I've fought my way through all the Cowled Wizards before, and I've never noticed her as being anything special. She dies to bugs just like the rest of them.
  • UnpersonUnperson Member Posts: 29
    Well, yeah, I also 1-shotted Firkraag with Quivering Palm, soloed the beholder lair with Celestial Fury and the Shield of Balduran, and made Irenicus cry with Keldorn's double level Dispel Magic. I had some good wine to go with all that vanilla cheese, too. All things considered, it's supposed to be one of the hardest encounters in the game in terms of raw power. /shrug
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    Ideally a mod component would give her the stats she actually deserves (he/she/it IS a demilich after all, and unlike Kangaax Zallanora's had time to re-adjust after he/she/it was imprisoned). Without mods the only noteworthy thing Zallanora does is cast Dimension Door at low HP. The implication there is that the devs did take (minor) steps to make killing her difficult.

    It's worth noting that the real Zallanora was actually a low/mid level wizard. The fact that she's casting high level spells implies that she's intentionally gone extremely-ancient-and-powerful-spellcaster mode.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Unperson said:

    Well, yeah, I also 1-shotted Firkraag with Quivering Palm, soloed the beholder lair with Celestial Fury and the Shield of Balduran, and made Irenicus cry with Keldorn's double level Dispel Magic. I had some good wine to go with all that vanilla cheese, too. All things considered, it's supposed to be one of the hardest encounters in the game in terms of raw power. /shrug

    My point is rather that liches and demiliches are harder to kill than that. Liches are immune to 5th level bugs, and demiliches are immune to all bugs. Zallanora doesn't have any special protections or immunities that make her noticeably harder to kill than half of the other mages in the game.
  • UnpersonUnperson Member Posts: 29
    edited April 2016
    Jarrakul said:


    My point is rather that liches and demiliches are harder to kill than that. Liches are immune to 5th level bugs, and demiliches are immune to all bugs. Zallanora doesn't have any special protections or immunities that make her noticeably harder to kill than half of the other mages in the game.

    Are they harder to kill really? A Protection from Undead scroll and liches cannot do *anything*. Protection from Magic/SI: Abjuration and demiliches become irrelevant because all they can do is spam Imprisonment.

    Insect Plague/Creeping Doom was a death sentence for any spellcasters outside of Rakshasas and liches because it imposed casting failure on a failed save, and short of a SI: Conjuration, there was no defense against it whatsoever. Casters by default used Spell Turning/Mantle/Stoneskin/Fire Shield regardless of player tactics. Stoneskin, Mantle and especially Fire Shield might all reasonably protect from bugs, but in vanilla, they don't.

    Essentially all enemies in vanilla have one strategy or item they just can't defend against, regardless of their supposed power. Zallanora/Shoon VII isn't an exception in this regard, but that's more a result of the limitations they worked under back then than anything. As someone said before, you can devour Elminster's brains, and we know just how much of a special snowflake he is.
  • JarrakulJarrakul Member Posts: 2,029
    Yeah, but she doesn't get anything that makes her appreciably different from any other mage. She doesn't fight like a lich. She doesn't even fight like Irenicus, who's slightly smarter about his spell protections than most. She just fights like a perfectly ordinary mage. I don't really think it makes sense to say she's another demilich, when she has no traits of liches or demiliches, no matter what she may be according to the lore.
  • NuinNuin Member Posts: 451
    As I said, she casts Dimension Door at low HP and shows up with a bunch of other high level wizards. She was also added in the original SoA, back when the devs' idea of munchkinism was based on what you could do in BG1 (haha). They probably just forgot about her, what with everything else they had to do. Unfinished Business/BGTweaks are proof that the devs simple didn't have the time/resources to fix/complete/polish everything.
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