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Kind of a big plot hole

24

Comments

  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Dragonspear isn't too far north. Around the same distance as from Baldur's Gate to Amn. Or something like that. Maybe shorter. BG1 starts during springtime, I think. Snow in the mountains still. Bg2 ends before winter kicks in.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,608
    the chapter 7 opening says it was a few weeks after the prologue dungeon

  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Ok then. So she got it in her mind that she should live on a farm for a week, instead of with her dear friends in Baldur's Gate. She rushed down there. Stayed for a week. Killed the farmers. Rushed back. Very evil.

  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    A simple retcon could be to remove the line about dropping your name and pull back the incident to before she met you.

    Rawgrimtypo_tilly
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    If this is a new timeline plot error, I know timeline errors in the original games have been pointed out and discussed previously as well. Seems like ages ago, though. You'd have to do some digging.

  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,608
    baldurs gate was never good with continuity. before sod came out it was assumed you finished bg1 with the canon party but that has now changed for the better. thats why no one in bg2 besides the members of the canon party and of course seravok remembers you.

    typo_tilly
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Xzar remembers you when you remind him. Garrick too, and Faldorn. Drizzt certainly does. And Corran + Safana. What are you getting at?

  • Mikey205Mikey205 Member Posts: 302
    Well most vaguely remembered you. Would be nice if they could further improve continuity though.

    typo_tilly
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    edited April 2016
    We still have no idea if they'll be allowed to adjust original content, aside from correcting typos.

  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    They kind of have to now. They messed up a bit.

  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    edited April 2016
    Eh, we'll have to agree to disagree on this. The games aren't perfect with SoD. They aren't perfect without SoD. Most people who go through the Viconia romance in SoD will likely be happier with the extra content despite a potential timeline issue.

    mf2112Gozeta
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    I won't get to play it unless they add a toggle for that graphics stuff anyway, so it won't mess up my personal game.

  • HeavylineHeavyline Member Posts: 108
    edited April 2016
    Rawgrim said:

    So are you finding plot holes within her BG2 dialogue?

    SoD causes plot holes in her dialogue, yes. So they need to rewrite some stuff in BG2 and add stuff to keep it neat and tidy.
    Fortunately, Beamdog's license for Baldur's Gate restricts them to rewrite the story in original games. They can mess around with UI, gameplay and add new characters, stories and locations. But they're not allowed to rewrite the existing story in BG1 & BG2.

    Baldur's Gate 2 is perfect as it is. Siege of Dragonspear has so many plot holes I just try to ignore the story and forget about it. Fortunately no one in BG2 ever mentions the events of SoD when you play it.
    Rawgrim said:


    1. When she meets you in BG2 she barely recognizes the player.

    Huh?


    Krotosillathidtypo_tillyAedan
  • EscarcheEscarche Member Posts: 60
    You could also spend a quite long time in Irenicus' Dungeon.

    illathidtypo_tilly
  • megamike15megamike15 Member Posts: 2,608
    true they never say how long he had you tortured.

    illathidtypo_tilly
  • LoreLore Member Posts: 114
    i think the Viconia dialogue/romance/friendship is done very well in SOD its a good leading up to the romance in BG2.

    illathidtypo_tilly
  • illathidillathid Member Posts: 320
    Escarche said:

    You could also spend a quite long time in Irenicus' Dungeon.

    true they never say how long he had you tortured.

    I always thought BG2 worked best if it was assumed you'd been in Irenicus' dungeons for months if not years.

    typo_tilly
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,884
    edited April 2016
    @typo_tilly
    I'm sorry but explain to me how, not even recognizing you in a crowd of genocidal drowphodes "not recingnizing" PC? What, did she just so happen to pick you at random because she wasn't yelling "burn the drow"? Especially every single comment up until that point was being directed at a crowd and not a indivual.

    And even afterwards she even spoke about vaguely remembering the quest PC was originally own when they first met.

    "LD1: 'So...what draws you to this part of Faerun? Amn? Athkalata? I
    seem to recall you mentioning some mission or some other bother.'"

    If she didn't remember you, then see couldn't recall this, and this is the very first conversation you have in the romance.

    Post edited by DragonKing on
    typo_tilly
  • RaltarRaltar Member Posts: 33


    "LD1: 'So...what draws you to this part of Faerun? Amn? Athkalata? I
    seem to recall you mentioning some mission or some other bother.'"

    It's been a long, long time since I've had Viconia in my BG2 party, but I'm 90% sure she is talking about the mission to rescue Imoen/get revenge on Irenicus.

    Rawgrim
  • KogornKogorn Member Posts: 104
    I disagree that she barely recognizes the player. Her dialog more reflects the shock of seeing the player in Athkatla. She has no reason to expect the player to be there.

    mf2112
  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    edited April 2016

    @typo_tilly
    I'm sorry but explain to me how, not even recognizing you in a crowd of genocidal drowphodes "not recingnizing" PC? What, did she just so happen to pick you at random because she wasn't yelling "burn the drow"? Especially every single comment up until that point was being directed at a crowd and not a indivual.

    And even afterwards she even spoke about vaguely remembering the quest PC was originally own when they first met.

    "LD1: 'So...what draws you to this part of Faerun? Amn? Athkalata? I
    seem to recall you mentioning some mission or some other bother.'"

    If she didn't remember you, then see couldn't recall this, and this is the very first conversation you have in the romance.

    I agree with you. I was working off the assertions of the OP as true, while arguing that SoD-BG2 is as flawed in any way as the BG1-BG2 connection is:
    Rawgrim said:

    Viconia. Her being in SoD is a plot hole by itself. And her romance\friendship development with the player too.

    1. When she meets you in BG2 she barely recognizes the player.
    2. Romancing her takes time and there are zero hints of any prior friendship. Quite the opposite in fact.
    3. She tells you what she has been doing since last you met her near Beregost.

    Viconia needs some serious rewriting in BG2 or the whole thing will be a rather big mess. She shouldn't have been near this expansion pack due to her story. Ripple effects, and all that. She is a walking contradiction now.

  • EnvygamesEnvygames Member Posts: 57
    With all the Plotholes in SoD you take the Vici Romance to make a Post about? :D

  • typo_tillytypo_tilly Member Posts: 5,702
    Envygames said:

    With all the Plotholes in SoD you take the Vici Romance to make a Post about? :D

    She's a fan favourite! :3

  • EnvygamesEnvygames Member Posts: 57

    Envygames said:

    With all the Plotholes in SoD you take the Vici Romance to make a Post about? :D

    She's a fan favourite! :3
    Yeah i know^^ And rightly so!

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,884
    Raltar said:


    "LD1: 'So...what draws you to this part of Faerun? Amn? Athkalata? I
    seem to recall you mentioning some mission or some other bother.'"

    It's been a long, long time since I've had Viconia in my BG2 party, but I'm 90% sure she is talking about the mission to rescue Imoen/get revenge on Irenicus.

    @rathe101
    And you would be 90% wrong, because she doesn't learn that until AFTER you tell her about that. You have the choice to tell her about being kidnapped, and so on. She starts the discussion with a reminiscent statement, not a question about imeon. I know, 99.9% of my bg2 runs had viconia in them and she is the only character that I've romanced more than once.

    "
    'How are you going to hunt down these culprits who ambushed you?
    Vermin rarely leave scent or footstep.'


    LD2: 'It's a strange time along this Sword Coast. The brink of war was
    averted, but the countryside remains hazardous to the citizenry.'



    'The war your half brother nearly started. What do you think I
    was speaking of?


    'Perhaps 'his' war died. That does not mean that other conflicts
    won't arise. Perhaps I ramble on, if you wish I'll stop bothering
    you.'

    typo_tilly
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,884

    @typo_tilly
    I'm sorry but explain to me how, not even recognizing you in a crowd of genocidal drowphodes "not recingnizing" PC? What, did she just so happen to pick you at random because she wasn't yelling "burn the drow"? Especially every single comment up until that point was being directed at a crowd and not a indivual.

    And even afterwards she even spoke about vaguely remembering the quest PC was originally own when they first met.

    "LD1: 'So...what draws you to this part of Faerun? Amn? Athkalata? I
    seem to recall you mentioning some mission or some other bother.'"

    If she didn't remember you, then see couldn't recall this, and this is the very first conversation you have in the romance.

    I agree with you. I was working off the assertions of the OP as true, while arguing that SoD-BG2 is as flawed in any way as the BG1-BG2 connection is:
    Rawgrim said:

    Viconia. Her being in SoD is a plot hole by itself. And her romance\friendship development with the player too.

    1. When she meets you in BG2 she barely recognizes the player.
    2. Romancing her takes time and there are zero hints of any prior friendship. Quite the opposite in fact.
    3. She tells you what she has been doing since last you met her near Beregost.

    Viconia needs some serious rewriting in BG2 or the whole thing will be a rather big mess. She shouldn't have been near this expansion pack due to her story. Ripple effects, and all that. She is a walking contradiction now.

    Ok, I've been away from the boards for a while, s I just learned today that SoD is even a thing. That actually answers the question of all the user names that I've never seen before. O.o

    KrotosArdultypo_tilly
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited April 2016

    Mikey205 said:

    I think it does make it worse because potentially you travelled together for much longer now and have been through more so probably feels a bit more jarring.

    Yes, I could see how it widens an already existing plot hole. Trouble is, you can do one thing in BG1 (e.g. have Edwin in your party) then in BG2 pretend another thing has happened (e.g. 'Didn't I kill you, Edwin?'). The jump between the two has always been disjointed. With SoD, we're going to see a bigger jump between any characters in BG1 that are also in BG2.
    Yeah, because back in the day, there wasn't this concept of importing save files to grab world states. I know we're all used to that now, because games like Dragon Age or Mass Effect all do that. But, really, 15 years ago, there was NO WAY to do that. The world state of a series was up to the player to remember and then define in game #2 or #3.

    It would take an entire rewrite of the Infinity Engine to make saved world states a thing. At that point, you may as well just redo the entire game in an entirely new engine, redo graphics, redo EVERYTHING. And, unless you have several million dollars lying around somewhere, good freakin' luck with that!

    Yes, there's a disconnect. There was always a disconnect. There is no way import world states from one IE-based game to another IE-based game. You'll just have to live with it. Even if Beamdog makes a few minor dialogue fixes in BG2EE, there will still be a disconnect.

    illathidmf2112typo_tilly
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Heavyline said:

    Rawgrim said:

    So are you finding plot holes within her BG2 dialogue?

    SoD causes plot holes in her dialogue, yes. So they need to rewrite some stuff in BG2 and add stuff to keep it neat and tidy.
    Fortunately, Beamdog's license for Baldur's Gate restricts them to rewrite the story in original games. They can mess around with UI, gameplay and add new characters, stories and locations. But they're not allowed to rewrite the existing story in BG1 & BG2.

    Baldur's Gate 2 is perfect as it is. Siege of Dragonspear has so many plot holes I just try to ignore the story and forget about it. Fortunately no one in BG2 ever mentions the events of SoD when you play it.
    Rawgrim said:


    1. When she meets you in BG2 she barely recognizes the player.

    Huh?


    "You must recognize me". Hardly something you say to someone you just adventured with a week earlier. Half a year earlier, yes. Not a week ago, though.

  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621

    true they never say how long he had you tortured.

    Everything in BG1, including SoD, and Bg2 + TOB happens withing a year. 1368, actually. The torture didn't take very long.

    typo_tilly
  • RawgrimRawgrim Member Posts: 621
    Raltar said:


    "LD1: 'So...what draws you to this part of Faerun? Amn? Athkalata? I
    seem to recall you mentioning some mission or some other bother.'"

    It's been a long, long time since I've had Viconia in my BG2 party, but I'm 90% sure she is talking about the mission to rescue Imoen/get revenge on Irenicus.
    This. You mention that Imoen is your main goal after you rescue Viconia from being burned. That is the mission Viconia is mentioning.

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