Valsharess HotU - or "almost impossible" in-game duels - for given classes. Rogue rant this one ;-)
The Clash: "I Fought the Law, and the Law Won." (... while having fancied yourself the Robin Hood.)
But this is an amiable rant because finally, finally I beat the Valsharess of NWN HoTU. (Neverwinter Nights - Hordes of the Underdark)
I built my char upon rogue class in HotU, 20+ or so levels first time around, but I just could not beat Valsharess. I dropped the difficulty to easy and reloaded with the Finnish grit. (read: at least for an hour, maybe two) No could do, and I dropped it for quite some time.
Valsharess is immune to critical hits and sneak attacks. She is never or hardly ever interrupted by multiple melee hits (a rogue deals out five per round) that much, and deals out death magic on fortitude or will saves.
After my first annihilation I purposefully multi-classed to Bard (for only will and fortitude saves) and took "epic" will and fortitude save feat just to get past Valsharess.
Still I did drop the difficulty to easy and reloaded multiple times. But this was not organic or particularly enjoyable character build up, from my perspective. It was only done for the eventual will and fortitude saves.
Anyone else ever felt that duels are narrowly designed?
But this is an amiable rant because finally, finally I beat the Valsharess of NWN HoTU. (Neverwinter Nights - Hordes of the Underdark)
I built my char upon rogue class in HotU, 20+ or so levels first time around, but I just could not beat Valsharess. I dropped the difficulty to easy and reloaded with the Finnish grit. (read: at least for an hour, maybe two) No could do, and I dropped it for quite some time.
Valsharess is immune to critical hits and sneak attacks. She is never or hardly ever interrupted by multiple melee hits (a rogue deals out five per round) that much, and deals out death magic on fortitude or will saves.
After my first annihilation I purposefully multi-classed to Bard (for only will and fortitude saves) and took "epic" will and fortitude save feat just to get past Valsharess.
Still I did drop the difficulty to easy and reloaded multiple times. But this was not organic or particularly enjoyable character build up, from my perspective. It was only done for the eventual will and fortitude saves.
Anyone else ever felt that duels are narrowly designed?
0
Comments
Dragonspear duel. As a swashbuckler I think it was neigh impossible on core. The opponent could flush me out of invisibility, and without back-stab multiplier my damage output was very mediocre. But at easy it went, so that is fine.
A positive example:
Arishok of DA2. Firstly, you can reject the single duel for a party clash. And secondly, it took me maybe half a dozen or more playthroughs to take Arishok on hard, maybe exploiting his weakness to illusion, but it felt very triumphant to do so, and my skills had their use before and after.
But that's something that's always existed in a game.
There are some characters that specialize, and some that are stupidly good at everything.
But if you specialize, you will eventually find yourself in a situation where you are un-equipped.
Warrior? Well here's a mage that can teleport around and throw fireballs.
Mage? Your trapped in a room with an angry stone golem/monk.
Rogue? Well, Crypts suck... stupid see-invis undead...
Ocassionally, one of the bane-types get elevated to boss stats to fit a story, and the poor class gets thrashed. Which is why its nice have a contingency plan, if you can manage it. That's when you actually use all those potions/scrolls/wands/figurines you were saving for a rainy day
How would you characterise Deus Ex, out of interest? As a game, I mean. And what are "bane-types"?
Meaning, you play it like an FPS, but what you can do and how well you do them is related to where you allocate skill points (DX1). (Like specializing in pistols, or explosives, or lockpicking)
Then there are the various "powers" that you must choose between (DX1/2/3), like
"Run faster and jump farther" or "Run silently".
Some people still call it an RPG, others claim its not a true one, so I like the "with RPG elements" phrase. And that varies within the series too (there are 3 main games currently) I figured your question could be interpreted as asking to know more about Deus Ex, or asking my personal classification, so I figured I just do both. You may already know all this.
--------------------------------------
When I say "Bane-type", I just mean a particular mob or monster in which a class is normally ineffectual against.
For example... Stone golems are the bane of mages, as they are basically immune to all things magic, and then can crush you in melee to boot! So, if you are playing a mage and forced to fight a Stone Golem boss that's been supercharged, 1-on-1.... it would probably end badly. Unless you prepared by buying say.. a bunch of "Summon Elemental" scrolls to smash it for you.. OR Polymorph.
I liked the duel in the NWN2 campaign. I played a buff/support bard in the OC so instead I had Casavir as my champion against Lorne. I feel that's the best way of handling duels in RPGs.
Bosses are immune to everything but swords and bullets.
However, I still could have dropped it to "story-mode" even with Ashatiel, so in this sense I thought it was ok, even if I had the worst possible rogue class for that particular duel. Swashbucklers become fun at high levels, but at low level the dual wielding penalty on attack and lack of back-stab multiplier keep them quite underwhelming. (IMO)
I really love NWN2 OC campaign, and totally agree that a chance of naming a champion for some CHAR-builds is almost necessary since Lorne is such brutally hard hitting thank with his charming beserking stage on tops. Same goes with Dragon Age Origins Loghain duel, one can name a champion (minus your doggie, lol), which I really approve of.
While I can handle both Lorne & Loghain with a dual wielding melee rogue with buffs, and dropping into stealth to avoid attacks of opportunity when initiating heal if things become critical, I imagine that for archers and indeed bards such tanks would be neigh-on-impossible.
In case of BG2 though, I've never really managed to kill dragons with a melee emphasis, and the various chain-contingencies of mage-bosses also meant that having spell-casters to counter that is pretty much mandatory. I also spam insect plague a lot! :-p I sort of missed a tanky boss in Sarevok style...
Archers are actually also a terrible stand-alone class, in my hands at least, and monks I've never really been able to use very well either. I only once allowed Khelgar to finish his vision quest, for example.
I am in truth always quite interested in views of fans of other genres, as I obviously lack in own knowledge.
For example, I'd never have given Mass Effect a go just because it's loved by almost every critic, as it is intrinsically a hard immersion for me - but the obvious and great love for the title from fellow-gamers tipped me eventually. And coincidentally I am rather poor at the FPS-business, even if became a ME fan!
One fight in that series were I was almost ready to give up was a late-game reaper fight where one is on foot on a ledge, with a tremendously slooooow aiming gun, and a single hit pretty much snuffs you. So essentially you have to spam evasion and run around like headless chicken to find that small respite where you eventually ready your gun, and get your bloody timing right. I thank generous youtube gameplay-video makers and tactics tips for getting me through that one...
Bane-types, yes. My view somewhat is that the difficulty scaling should be generous, meaning that if your party, character or equipment build is somewhat "off" dropping difficulty to easy should let out of an impasse.
Or if a fight becomes a grind, and you just don't want to spend that much time going through the motions. Some fights are not even that impossible, but just become repetitive and boring because there is pretty much only a single workable tactic... Would this be the "extract brain" attack of beholders in HotU, maybe?
Actually his children (and their allies) in the iwd2 last battle are far, far more terrible IMHO. But that is nowhere here or there.
I even managed to buy something from genie with that method
But seriously, thieves, along with archers are meant to be support classes, so it's a pity that your character can't say (like before duel with that elite crusader): "duel? Sure, but I'm rather pick-this-lock-and-backstab-guy... but Dorn here is more than happy to behead you". As for "impossible duels" - I can't see how anyone beside warrior and mage with wand of holding person would be able to kill werewolf on Balduran's ship.
Not seriously of course, and good on u- I'd not wish the frustration of having to abandon a game on anyone. My first try probably would not have been winnable even with more optimal tactics, as my will and fortitude were under ten, so I default failed pretty much every save.
Admittedly, on my second go, I only stealthed when I badly needed healing or wanted to sneak out of an area effect - come think of it, heck, I was way too honest a fighter there! However, I am always conditioned to a rather streamlined use of items and such, because unfortunately NWN has horribly clunky radial-menu and inventory system (IMO). But I'll keep your tricks in mind for an eventual replay, rest assured!
And that werewolf - so true! I probably have once reloaded and skipped that island, because even with a full party it is one nasty vastly regenerating piece of work, that beast! However, a hasted and buffed dual-wielder equipped with Kondar and that dagger one finds on the island proved a rather satisfactory retribution, even for a thief.
So, an option for a champion gets my vote, indeed.
BTW - I am one of those whom rate DA2 exceedingly high, I love it the best out of the series.
That is one game where I think a melee rogue is possibly one of the best classes, and thoroughly enjoyable for sure - high level assassin/shadow is a superb combo; tactically versatile with satisfyingly murderous damage output. The trick of that game though is that special abilities do not miss, even if I think the main bosses have damage reduction, or just insane HP count.
As for the Karoug - yeah, that could work, but this guy is even a challenge of party of six people, I think. Pity that Kondar is bastard sword and those are rare in BG and I usually put points in other weapons. I agree completely and I also love playing rogue Hawke
Steamrolling Valsharess with a thief meanwhile, good on u then.
Seems i have to agree with u on pretty much everything, except that I clearly suffered more at hands of Valsharess!
Dark Souls - I only know of this game that it is reputed to be really, really difficult. Right? I am curious: how much of an RPG is it, per your view?
And: gotta love back your Hawke love Artona!!!
I think he/she is really the best Dragon Age player character ever, or with nameless hero of PS:T of all time (IMO). And Shepard, of course. Mainly i think because the brilliant gaming innovation of allowing the player to define Hawke's personality through the dialogue wheel.
I was soooo frustrated when for Inquisition they rather went for the "American dead-pan voice" that I take was intended either for dwarf of qunari, with very little intrinsic personality for our dear inki. To me, adding superficial choices over depth of narrative is not a good trade off. But fair enough of course to provide fan services to those others to whom race selection is very important in character creation.
Curiously, DA2 is also the only game where I consistently choose to play male lead hero.
I was originally just curious to see how voices compared, but Nicholas Boulton's performance as Male Hawke is pure perfection! He can bring warmth, playfulness and aggression to those lines just superbly. I so wish we'd get another chance to play as him / her.
Personally, I always play Magic Users in NWN and BG though, so it's very rare that I find a simply unbeatable boss. I might have to experiment a bit in my spell load out, but unless the boss has been specifically designed to counter magic, it's rarely that much a problem overall.
However, cheesy or not, I actually managed Dracolich by alternating which side of that "hidden door" I was - when the damage was becoming too severe, I'd hop over to the other side for healing, as the dracolich would take a while to chase after me. That is how I manged to take it down even if that was bit of a process.
It's quite interesting how I seem to be about the only one whom is a bit traumatized by Valsharess - but that is richness of gaming, surely!
I myself tend never to play as mage, Planescape Torment is the only game and that is only because there is bit of a balancing problem in terms of Wisdom and Intelligence being such domineering attributes.
Not a very wise decision. A monk would have been better as they get unarmed BAB with kamas (meaning every consecutive attack comes at -3 as opposed to -5), extra AC and they actually have high progression in all saving throws.
>bard … not exactly a front line fighter
Quite the opposite, Bards are super strong front liners when levelled up and played properly, especially Bard/RDDs. Curse Song in particular is just ridiculously powerful.
I appreciate monks are powerful and probably very satisfying for those whom can bring the best out of them, but just never perso really liked the class that much... High dexterity of rogue is obviously very synergetic with the unarmored classes. I am a secularist in real life too, lol.
However, from my perspective the cumbersomeness of the radial menu in HotU and lack of individual "click on character and manage directly" does not make it workable with Deekin in an enjoyable manner, and unfortunately the party AI is a bit poor.
For example, when our draco-undead attacks Deekin, if I want him out of the harms way, I pretty much need to issue "follow me" and saunter away. Keeping Deekin alive in that fight is more trouble than it's worth in my view, even if surely possible if I was more assiduous about it. Only, it does not really enhance game-play for me...
I am very glad of the UI improvements for BG series and NWN2!!
So, yeah, that's how I see it. No argument here
That's only mid-boss fight in ToB I've not been able to beat on hard thus far, I find that one particularly painful! I don't play the expansion that often, admittedly, but I do try at least two, three times every time I get to it. Got pretty close last time, so progress, yea!
And thx for take on Dark Souls.
The final boss of Planescape Torment also ended up being a pain on that playthrough.