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A clasic BG players review of SoD

My review of EE and SoD.
First a little bit about the reviewer. I have played D&D since 1981 and have seen good DMs and bad DMs and been a DM myself. I have played BG since it came out and have continued to enjoy the Big World of BG mods to this day. I also own IWD and IWD2. I have done a little modding, but I primarily just play the game.

Comparing vanilla BG(2) to vanilla BG(2)EE, the EE versions are way better, but are they the best value.

Bug fixing: The classic versions can have all the bugs fixed with TOBEX, Balderdash, BGFixpack and Unfinished Business and/or part of the NPC1 project . The EE versions do not fix all the bugs and for some, they don’t even do as good a job as the above mods. The mods already identified all the bugs form the classic version and how to fix, why it is taking Beamdog so long? This was a literally a day project – OK I will give them two weeks to follow the standard production release checklist.

The EE versions bring the BG2 engine like kits to BG1. A mod already did that for the classic versions.

The EE versions changed the UI layout for the sake of change. Are they better-no; are they worse-probably not. However, change for the sake of change is usually perceived negatively, so whatever you change has to show an improvement or why change.

Many of the cut scenes are better, especially when Gorion dies. +
Modders have specially indicated that new opcodes make modding easier. ++

For me the only reason to buy EE is new content . My dream: SoD would be released and soon the mod EET, and the other mods would be converted to EET, and I would buy all the EE versions and I would buy anything new BG related from Beamdog and would have this awesome BG game. Then the reality of SoD came.

If SoD was a free mod released by an amateur individual or team I would clap my hands say great job because it is an above average 1st release of a mod. The modder usually wants people to like their work and usually takes constructive criticism well and works to improve their mod. Beamdog being the professionals where customers actually paid for the mod did initially express a different attitude of “this is the way it is and if you don’t like it too bad” or “we won’t change the mod and you can’t make us”. I really don’t understand their approach to customer service, but maybe they have changed their approach.

SoD has a lot of good things, it is an above average mod similar to The Darkest Day (TDD), but as a professional mod that I paid for it lacks that professional polish.

What is wrong: Too much “dungeon by DM decree” and poor storytelling and dialog.
1. Imoen not in party: This is an example of dungeon by DM decree. This has some back story and I can accept this decree even though I don’t like it.

2. Lose all NPCs: Another example of dungeon by DM decree. I can understand the intent, but the implementation is just bad. Examples of how to fix:
a. Dialog: NPC (like Kivan) says to charname “Now that I have avenged my wife, I feel I need some time to reflect. I am sure that you don’t mind if I return home now that our mission has been accomplished.
b. Inventory Items – two options:
i. Let the player keep all the items – consistent with what happens when an NPC is released
ii. Add some dialog and consequences tied to home many items are taken.
1. One Item: “Since you are leaving can you please return the item I lent you:
a. NPC: No problem
b. Player grabs a couple of items
2. Too many items:
a. NPC gets upset and reputation goes down
c. If an NPC will be available for recruitment latter, let me know. Minsc says that he and Dynaheir will be in the tavern in town for the next couple of weeks in case charname needs them again. J&K let the charname know what they will be doing and give hints on where they can be recruited in the future.

3. Lose all the gold: Another DM decree that is very poorly implemented. Also why is it important that charname looses all the gold? Don’t make a DM decree for no reason. The entire logic of this adventure does not make sense. If this was my gold I would bring the treasurer before the Dukes and demand his head, his entire life savings or my money back. I didn’t lose my gold, the city did and the city owes me a bunch of money. This is rank amateurism at the best and gross incompetence at the worst. The story must be logical and make sense, just don’t make a decree because you are in charge. An example of how to maybe do it better:
a. BG to player: The city needs the money to fund the campaign and executes imminent domain and takes the money in exchange for a letter of credit and a promised 10% interest when they return the money later. Not just the player, but everyone. Add some dialog where everyone is complaining on the loss of gold. This gives the player another incentive to stop the crusade to get their money back.
b. The letter of credit turns out to be very heavily discounted because of the shortage of cash – maybe 50% but allow the player to spend some of this money in the city. Of course outside the city no-one will take the credit.
c. Turn the adventure of “getting your gold” back to a job the city offers you for hard cash, to protect a shipment of hard cash (some which is your gold). When you lose it the city blames you and deducts a percentage of what is lost from your credit account.

4. Not being allowed to go back: This needs some work. The player needs to be able to go back, maybe add some consequences, but just not allowing the character to do something that is very logical makes this one of the first things that a mod will fix later. Another example of a very bad DM decree.

5. The ending: Use the players reputation for a couple of options:
a. Low reputation: People believe charname murdered Skie – prison break
b. High reputation: Two of the dukes tell charname that they believe he was framed, but Skie’s father blames them and wants them dead and fear the Duke will come after them. Recommendation is to leave town now. If they can retrieve the murder weapon a mage can prove who used it. He did a scribe on the weapon and it was on the way to Amn. Suggests we go there to locate it. Of course they can’t return all our money with the way things are, but gives you xxx gold towards you account. This sets up several potential adventures: Find murder weapon, get back want every money you have for BG. It also gives a logical reason to both avoid and come back to BG.

6. There are some other examples of DM decree that I have not listed and many other places where some good storytelling and dialog will polish SoD. The DM must gently lead the player into the path he needs to take, not push him kicking and screaming in that direction. The first option makes this a game to be played frequently, the last results in a game played once.

7. Politics: This is a fantasy world where a gender belt exists along with polymorph other and self spells. I would not have put in the TG issue in SoD in the beginning, but since it is already there some suggestions:
a. Have this be revealed during a romance or a friendship
b. Have an adventure associated with it. Example: NPC is using a polymorph other spell that wears off and wants to make it permanent but needs a special non-dispellable and safe polymorph other spell (remember you have a chance of dying with polymorph other). NPC asks charname for help to get the needed component and/or find the mage who can cast it. Maybe they need to do something special to convince the mage to cast the spell since charname won’t have enough gold to pay for it.
c. I would prefer b.

SoD can be fixed if Beamdog is willing to invest some time and energy in Storytelling. D&D is a story and what makes BG great is it’s a story that gives the player an illusion of freedom. A good DM (which Beamdog needs to become) guides the player who makes the story their own. There are many books published on how to be a good DM and build a good story and lead the characters down that story lane while giving them the illusion of complete freedom. Beamdog just needs to go to school.

PS: Also improve your customer service. Remember this is NOT a free mod, people actually paid money for it.

I really want my dream to come true so please polish SoD so its worthy to be a mod that needs to be purchase and not similar to a free mod that you actually have to pay for.
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Comments

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Curious, another negative review by someone with no other posts and poor spelling...
  • ZilberZilber Member Posts: 253
    DM by decree like, for instance,
    your godfather being murdered in cutscene with you running away,
    being infected by werewolves,
    being poisoned with a single way out or
    being trapped in Irenicus' dungeon?

    Losing the gold was neccesary, the amount of gold BG leaves you with would have you buying out sorcerous sundries without a second thought, and does not portray the hardship the city is in. Could it be done better? Well, possibly, but there is a reason for it.

    The game is a lot shorter, and good degrees of freedom need a lengthier path to diverge from

  • SirBatinceSirBatince Member Posts: 882
    agreed for the gold part. If I took the time to loot every single xvart and kobold in bg1, I deserve my money in SoD
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    bengoshi said:

    Fardragon said:

    Curious, another negative review by someone with no other posts and poor spelling...

    Let's not concentrate on who posts what but rather on what is being posted. Carry on!
    If people aren't called out for creating duplicate accounts to create an illusion that more people share their views than actually do, people will come away with a false impression.
  • batoorbatoor Member Posts: 676
    edited May 2016

    agreed for the gold part. If I took the time to loot every single xvart and kobold in bg1, I deserve my money in SoD

    I actually recovered from that loss in classical BG hoarding style of selling every piece of junk I could find.. But in the start of the city I did end up extorting a lot of poor refugee victim for measly sums like 30 gold and so on.

    Oh beamdog..Look what you made me become.
  • UlrezajUlrezaj Member Posts: 2
    Fardragon said:

    bengoshi said:

    Fardragon said:

    Curious, another negative review by someone with no other posts and poor spelling...

    Let's not concentrate on who posts what but rather on what is being posted. Carry on!
    If people aren't called out for creating duplicate accounts to create an illusion that more people share their views than actually do, people will come away with a false impression.
    I'm pretty sure that you realise, but I will say it. SoD is a big thing that happened to Baldurs Gate. It's bigger than enhanced editions. It draws much more attention than just reboot. It draws people like me and author here, to the source, to share opinion/impressions and read opinions of others. If this is duplicate account, then report it and let mods deal with it. Even if it is, then its still not a good idea to derail a topic.

    Negatives are usually the most prominent things we see and experience. Thats why people post such reviews so often. I'm pretty sure that any constructive criticism is welcomed. I find it interesting to see propositions and solutions here as well. Its good to see another persons point of view on things you thought are done and exhausted. Even if something seems a bit negative(read my impressions/review?), I actually enjoy those BIG battles a lot. Its something that I felt missing and needed. I just had to use different combination of characters.

    I agree with all points except for 4, which is iffy. The numbers aren't big, but its organized military expedition. You are the special unit for everything. To keep this somewhat consistent, you shouldn't be able to go back to the city as a hero who just departed. Its making the game too similar to iwd for me, but I kind of see the reasons why nobody should go back and abandon everything, especially when it concerns your person. Nobody said "I dont care about Rieltar in Candlekeep, lets forget about everything and go to gods know where". But I understand the annoyance of being pushed without checking things out after some time, to see if you didn't miss anything or to satisfy that feeling of freedom.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016
    I hardly think you could call SoD a "mod" in any sense. Hell, the literal definition of a mod is that it is a modification to the base game. SoD is an expansion with hard reset in the beginning to force the story to begin in the proper way.
    Really, the game should be thought of a separate game in a way.
  • xzar_montyxzar_monty Member Posts: 631
    The money question is badly implemented, I agree, but it is actually almost irrelevant. Why? Because there's nothing special to buy in the game. Seriously. I started with zero money like everybody else, and at no point during the game did I have a feeling of "Sheesh, now that looks like something I would definitely want - too bad I don't have the money." (This is a feeling familiar to anyone who enters Adventurer's Mart right after Chateau Irenicus and sees the Robe of Vecna, for example. Or travels to Trademeet for the first time and sees that one belt.)

    For me, the money question was very minor, although it was unfortunate. And I loved SoD, for the most part - definitely worth my cash!
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016

    The money question is badly implemented, I agree, but it is actually almost irrelevant. Why? Because there's nothing special to buy in the game. Seriously. I started with zero money like everybody else, and at no point during the game did I have a feeling of "Sheesh, now that looks like something I would definitely want - too bad I don't have the money." (This is a feeling familiar to anyone who enters Adventurer's Mart right after Chateau Irenicus and sees the Robe of Vecna, for example. Or travels to Trademeet for the first time and sees that one belt.)

    For me, the money question was very minor, although it was unfortunate. And I loved SoD, for the most part - definitely worth my cash!

    Once you pay for the license, you actually don't have anything to spend your money on anyway. The Adventurer's Mart is cool, but you're so flush with cash by mid-game. It's a non-issue.

    It's the same deal in SoD, with the exception of not needing to raise that initial 30,000 gold.
  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 476
    Overall I enjoyed SoD but I too felt there were some glaring issues that bugged me.

    1. Sub par voiced acting.

    Some of the voices are brilliant; Caelar, Hephernaan, Skie and many of the classic characters are great. But there were several that were just terrible. The first lines you hear in a game should set the bar...In BG1 you have Gorion & Sarevok, in BG2 its Irenicus, ToB the talking stones and Illasera, in SoD it was a very weird and somewhat creepy version of Imoen followed by Porios whos voice definately lacked a profesional authenticity. The first well voiced-character you meet is probably Duke Eltan or Skie.

    I would *much* rather a character have no voice-over than a poor one. Having someone reading lines in an awkward amateur way is an immersion killer for me and I wish they had simply removed dialogue that didn't sound authentic. Leave it to our imaginations.

    All you need is *one* voice thats good for, say, Korlasz and the rest can be mute and I'd be more than happy.

    2.NPCs

    I was really disappointed when my entire party was scrapped after the first prologue quest. I felt like they were intentionally limiting my choice of NPCs so I was forced to play their new ones. IMO new NPCs should be additional not replacements. At the very least I think we should have had reasons as to why each NPC had to leave with a clear opportunity to keep the gear they're carrying...instead we are forced to reload a previous save to rescue the gear we spent many hours accumulating throughout BG1.

    I just dont understand why its "necessary" to remove options in a game thats all about options. Everyone is going to want to try out the new characters you dont need to force feed us them. Which brings me to the final point...

    3 Choice

    There is a screaming need for the choice to join Caelar. It felt so restrictive and frustrating having several answers that were all shades of the same colour. So many hints kept popping up suggesting joining her was a possibility; Corwin questioning your loyalty, Caelar asking you directly making her case, so many others reportedly joining her willingly and the choices at Borskyr Bridge. The plot rails were all too clear and rigid.

    In BG2 you could choose to join the Shadow Thieves or Bhodi and it was a nice choice of RP flavour ultimately leading to the same point. It would have been great if they'd employed a similar choice in SoD.

    But like I said, overall, I have enjoyed SoD and I don't regret buying it in the slightest. The story was entertaining, much of the party banter was very nice I liked Corwin, her character concept was great (and its nice to have a sexually flexible female NPC that isnt a heartless bloodsucking monster.) The music was awesome; I was quite surprised at how good it was. I liked that they integrated Jon into the story although I think I would have preferred that he didnt directly interact with charname for continuity purposes. The events on the whole have opened many doors for potential future additions; new quests, locations, NPCs (ahem recruitable Caelar ahem >.>) opportunities that I hope will be implemented.

    That's my 2-cents anyway, and hopefully I havnt disgruntled anyone by sharing it. :)
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016
    Mush_Mush said:

    There is a screaming need for the choice to join Caelar.

    If joining a woman who 1) basically is strongarming the Baldur's Gate region with her crusade, taking advantage of the vacuum in power left by dealing with Sarevok; and 2) desires to open a portal to hell...if that's somehow desirous for you, then you really don't understand how bad opening a portal to hell is in the Forgotten Realms. Those who opened portals to hell in the past have ruined entire civilizations.
    Examples of terrible consequences resulting from summoning of demons or involvement with demons:
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Ilythiiri
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Wendonai
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Fey'ri#History
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Fey'ri_invasion_of_Evereska
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Army_of_Darkness
    http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Weeping_War

  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 476

    Mush_Mush said:

    There is a screaming need for the choice to join Caelar.

    If joining a woman who 1) basically is strongarming the Baldur's Gate region with her crusade, taking advantage of the vacuum in power left by dealing with Sarevok; and 2) desires to open a portal to hell...if that's somehow desirous for you, then you really don't understand how bad opening a portal to hell is in the Forgotten Realms.
    But helping a vampire murder a nobleman in his home is totally fine...? lol

    It's not about morality, it's about choice and whats visable within the confines of the story arc. Theres no reason why joining Caelar would derail the events in any way so why not have the option?
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016
    Mush_Mush said:

    It's not about morality, it's about choice and whats visable within the confines of the story arc. Theres no reason why joining Caelar would derail the events in any way so why not have the option?

    There is no possible reason, regardless of morality (except maybe Chaotic Evil), that ANYONE would want to open a portal to hell. It's suicidal, destructive, and so on. We're talking WAY BEYOND the insanity of the Joker in "The Dark Knight" films. Even Priests of Cyric typically don't want to open a portal to hell. It's that bad!

    And don't compare opening a portal to hell to helping a vampire. The consequences of the latter aren't the potential destruction of nations, regions, etc., etc. The consequences are much less dire. It's like comparing mountains to molehills.
  • UlbUlb Member Posts: 295

    Mush_Mush said:

    It's not about morality, it's about choice and whats visable within the confines of the story arc. Theres no reason why joining Caelar would derail the events in any way so why not have the option?

    There is no possible reason, regardless of morality (except maybe Chaotic Evil), that ANYONE would want to open a portal to hell. It's suicidal, destructive, and so on. We're talking WAY BEYOND the insanity of the Joker in "The Dark Knight" films. Even Priests of Cyric typically don't want to open a portal to hell. It's that bad!

    And don't compare opening a portal to hell to helping a vampire. The consequences of the latter aren't the potential destruction of nations, regions, etc., etc. The consequences are much less dire. It's like comparing mountains to molehills.
    So you're saying Caelar and everyone that follows her is in truth chaotic evil?

    Your argument doesn't make much sense in respeckt to the SoD story line. There are clearly many people that do think opening said portal might be a good idea. Those people might missjudge the situation gravely and might be missinformed as well but that doesn't change the fact that such a mind set clearly exists within the FR of SoD.
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    Ulb said:

    So you're saying Caelar and everyone that follows her is in truth chaotic evil?

    Your argument doesn't make much sense in respeckt to the SoD story line. There are clearly many people that do think opening said portal might be a good idea. Those people might missjudge the situation gravely and might be missinformed as well but that doesn't change the fact that such a mind set clearly exists within the FR of SoD.

    No, I'm saying that Caelar was misguided and naive. Your character clearly knows that her goal IS to open a portal to hell. You also know that she is terrorizing the region. Everything you learn about it enforces the fact that she's being misled or is in some way misguided. The whole story enforces that idea that she had good intentions but was doing things in the wrong way.

    Your character is NOT an idiot, I'm assuming (and let's not get into using the INT stat as a measure of intelligence here; that's just noise). Therefore, CHARNAME would know that opening a portal to hell is a terrible idea. You grew up in Candlekeep, where you assumingly learned about the history of Faerun. It's not a great logic stretch to assume that CHARNAME would oppose opening a portal to hell automatically.
  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 476
    edited May 2016

    Ulb said:


    Your character is NOT an idiot, I'm assuming (and let's not get into using the INT stat as a measure of intelligence here; that's just noise). Therefore, CHARNAME would know that opening a portal to hell is a terrible idea. You grew up in Candlekeep, where you assumingly learned about the history of Faerun. It's not a great logic stretch to assume that CHARNAME would oppose opening a portal to hell automatically.

    Charname can be anything, thats kinda the point.

    He/she can be an idiot or a genius, wise or foolish. The point is not morality or intlligence it's what your char name would do in that given situation. It's perfectly plausible for a character to sympathize with Caelar and be arrogant/naive enough to believe the plan would work as intended. The fact that she has raised an army of devotees is evidence of that alone.

    Regardless Caelar essentially succeeds in opening a portal anyway, albeit not as planned and whether you join her or attempt to stop her makes little difference. In the end the outcome is the same, so, why not?
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    How did I know that after the first two paragraphs that this person was going to bring up the transgender NPC? Like, I must have mystical powers of divination or something. One of your top 7 criticisms with SoD was that they didn't put in a quest to expound upon the backstory of a MINOR non-playable character? Really? Why this character in particular? Because they're transgender? Why can't the transgender character just be in the game, and not have to take center stage and have tons of attention heaped upon them? I'm confused.
  • UlbUlb Member Posts: 295
    Sorry @rapsam2003 you can spin this as many times as you like (by telling me what my Charname is or is not) and your argument will still not hold. Caelar alone rebukes every point you made. The SoD story rebukes every point you made trying to defend there not being an option to join the cursade.

    Oh, by the way I personally don't think it is that terrible to not be given that option. I just don't think that there is any reasonable "in game" explanation as to why Charname should not have that option.
  • RathenauRathenau Member Posts: 80
    GoodSteve said:

    How did I know that after the first two paragraphs that this person was going to bring up the transgender NPC? Like, I must have mystical powers of divination or something. One of your top 7 criticisms with SoD was that they didn't put in a quest to expound upon the backstory of a MINOR non-playable character? Really? Why this character in particular? Because they're transgender? Why can't the transgender character just be in the game, and not have to take center stage and have tons of attention heaped upon them? I'm confused.

    At this point, it might be more prudent to look at Beamdog's stance on the matter. They have already acknowledged that the character in question should have more nuance. The ship has sailed my friend.

    As to the question of joining the crusade, I too hold with @Mush_Mush regarding the issue. It would seem to be fairly easy, story wise, to join the crusade 'betray' the garrison at Boareskyr Bridge, fight the coalition's forces at their camp and/or defend Dragonspear, go to the Hells and get arrested when you return by remnant forces of the coalition. Considering you don't put up a fight after you get arrested for the murder on Skie, the same can be done when returning to the prime material plane. Alternatively; you could be asked to work as an agent of the crusade inside the coalition's encampment to preserve the existing quests.

    I think I already mentioned it somewhere else but I too was more than willing to join the crusade. Not being able to even when you're called upon to do so by not only your own companions, Caelar herself AND the duke just adds insult to injury.
  • AstroBryGuyAstroBryGuy Member Posts: 3,437
    Mush_Mush said:

    Overall I enjoyed SoD but I too felt there were some glaring issues that bugged me.

    1. Sub par voiced acting.

    Some of the voices are brilliant; Caelar, Hephernaan, Skie and many of the classic characters are great. But there were several that were just terrible. The first lines you hear in a game should set the bar...In BG1 you have Gorion & Sarevok, in BG2 its Irenicus, ToB the talking stones and Illasera, in SoD it was a very weird and somewhat creepy version of Imoen followed by Porios whos voice definately lacked a profesional authenticity. The first well voiced-character you meet is probably Duke Eltan or Skie.

    I would *much* rather a character have no voice-over than a poor one. Having someone reading lines in an awkward amateur way is an immersion killer for me and I wish they had simply removed dialogue that didn't sound authentic. Leave it to our imaginations.

    All you need is *one* voice thats good for, say, Korlasz and the rest can be mute and I'd be more than happy.

    Well, you hear Sarevok first in BG1, in the intro movie. But you don't get the Gorion/Sarevok encounter until probably an hour or so into playing for a new player. You have books to fetch, cow antitode to find, Hull's sword to bring to him, rats to stomp, clumsy assassins to dispatch, etc..

    As for Imoen's voice, I didn't find anything creepy about Melissa Disney's performance. She sounded fine - a more mature Imoen. Not the child-like BG1 Imoen voiceset, but not haunted like the BG2 Imoen either.
    2.NPCs

    I was really disappointed when my entire party was scrapped after the first prologue quest. I felt like they were intentionally limiting my choice of NPCs so I was forced to play their new ones. IMO new NPCs should be additional not replacements. At the very least I think we should have had reasons as to why each NPC had to leave with a clear opportunity to keep the gear they're carrying...instead we are forced to reload a previous save to rescue the gear we spent many hours accumulating throughout BG1.

    I just dont understand why its "necessary" to remove options in a game thats all about options. Everyone is going to want to try out the new characters you dont need to force feed us them. Which brings me to the final point...
    They removed NPCs to simplfy the story-telling. Bringing all 29 BG1EE NPCs (25 original BG1 NPCs and 4 EE NPCs) into SoD and giving them all fleshed out content would have taken an enormous writing and development effort, to say nothing of adding 4 new NPCs. So, they downsized the cast past the prologue. Remember that the original BG1 NPCs have at most about 12 lines of dialog each. They are barely 1-dimensional characters.

    Also, when developing BG2, Bioware eliminated all the BG1 NPCs except 5 (out of 25; a 20% NPC retention rate). Then, they added 11 new NPCs (12 counting ToB), for a total of 16 (or 17 in ToB) NPCs. How many does SoD have? 15. They retained 7 original NPCs from BG1, the 4 EE NPCs, and added 4 new NPCs. Looks like they followed Bioware's pattern.
    3 Choice

    There is a screaming need for the choice to join Caelar. It felt so restrictive and frustrating having several answers that were all shades of the same colour. So many hints kept popping up suggesting joining her was a possibility; Corwin questioning your loyalty, Caelar asking you directly making her case, so many others reportedly joining her willingly and the choices at Borskyr Bridge. The plot rails were all too clear and rigid.

    In BG2 you could choose to join the Shadow Thieves or Bhodi and it was a nice choice of RP flavour ultimately leading to the same point. It would have been great if they'd employed a similar choice in SoD.
    BG2 gave you a choice between aiding evil undead or aiding evil thieves. Not a satisfying "choice" for a LG paladin.

    And then it puts you on the plot rails at Spellhold.
  • Mush_MushMush_Mush Member Posts: 476
    edited May 2016
    "Well, you hear Sarevok first in BG1, in the intro movie. But you don't get the Gorion/Sarevok encounter until probably an hour or so into playing for a new player."
    It really doesn't take an hour or so to do candlekeep. 30mins tops on a casual first time through, for some people who dont bother with chores: less than 5mins. But the point still stands that all the first voiced conversations in BG1 are far better than SoD's regardles of whether it is 5mins after the player starts or 50mins its still the first voiced dialogue.
    "As for Imoen's voice, I didn't find anything creepy about Melissa Disney's performance. She sounded fine - a more mature Imoen. Not the child-like BG1 Imoen voiceset, but not haunted like the BG2 Imoen either."
    Well I suppose it comes down to personal preference to some degree. I personally don't think it was anywhere close to her best performance, but to each their own.
    "They removed NPCs to simplfy the story-telling. Bringing all 29 BG1EE NPCs (25 original BG1 NPCs and 4 EE NPCs) into SoD and giving them all fleshed out content would have taken an enormous writing and development effort, to say nothing of adding 4 new NPCs. So, they downsized the cast past the prologue. Remember that the original BG1 NPCs have at most about 12 lines of dialog each. They are barely 1-dimensional characters."
    They didn't need to flesh them out all they needed was to either a) not remove them or b) provide some form of farewell scenario and reasoning for their departure. As it stands there is no reason they just vanish along with half your gear.

    "BG2 gave you a choice between aiding evil undead or aiding evil thieves. Not a satisfying "choice" for a LG paladin.

    And then it puts you on the plot rails at Spellhold. "
    ...at which point you could choose whether to go through the portal or side with saemon.....at which point if you chose the latter, you could choose to side with either the mad king or the prince, or neither...

    The element of choice and a degree of freedom is what makes RPGs great.

    (fyi thieves arn't necessarily evil many are neutral and all the actions you perform for the STs in Amn are fairly good-aligned actions)
  • JourinJourin Member Posts: 6
    I am glad this generated some good discussion. I was initially worried I would get banned because it appeared that any criticism of SoD is not acceptable, but then other reasonable people commented.

    Replying to some comments. This was my first post on Beamdog. I have posted several times on Spellhold and G3 Gibberlings as Jourin. Same person. If you don't believe me, come on over to Spellhold.

    Why the TG comment: Because with all the discussion on this topic, it would be weird if I didn't comment. I tried to be different by actually giving ideas on how to make it better.

    To subtledoctor: Yes BG1 and BG2 have DM decrees, but I think they are for major items and not minor ones like in SoD. Gorion's death: That was necessary to set me free in the game. I always role played that his body was taken which is why I couldn't raise him. Everything else was a gentle prod on the path. BG2: Imprisoned and items and gold taken. I can role play that I was pretty low level and we could have been captured without a fight. Losing Imoen really got me upset since she is my favorite NPC. I think that could have been done better. In Spellhold I was glad that they didn't take my equipment again because I role played a sneak quick and take soul attack and not that the party was defeated without a fight. The thief vs. Vampire choice was limited, but that is why Alternatives was born. In SoD I can understand the purpose of losing Imoen. Don't like it and think it could have been done better (she is my favorite NPC), but can accept it. For the other DM decrees I gave specific examples on how to achieve the same affect with a gentle prod rather than a sledge hammer to pound it down the players throat. That is the polish I expect on a mod I have to pay for. I did include the positive of better Opcodes that you like.

    To some others: I don't think I was overly negative so don't understand that reaction. Don't understand the comment on bad spelling. Am I disappointed - yes. Why: Many free mods have achieved a high level so the bar for 'something I have to pay for' is high. I think Beamdog shot themselves in the foot by limiting the dialog lines. I think that is the root cause of most of the issues....poor storytelling. Good news: That is the easiest thing to fix.

    Have I moved from buy stuff, like SoD immediately to a wait a see mode - yes. Meaning that if they don't 'fix'/improve SoD and release something else, I probably won't buy it. Why: Because the storytelling will be bad. I play for the immersion of the story. If I just want to kill monsters I can play other games.

    Free mods are different, they are free. If I pay for something I expect a good story.

  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811
    Jourin said:

    My review of EE and SoD.
    First a little bit about the reviewer. I have played D&D since 1981 and have seen good DMs and bad DMs and been a DM myself. I have played BG since it came out and have continued to enjoy the Big World of BG mods to this day. I also own IWD and IWD2. I have done a little modding, but I primarily just play the game.

    Comparing vanilla BG(2) to vanilla BG(2)EE, the EE versions are way better, but are they the best value.

    Bug fixing: The classic versions can have all the bugs fixed with TOBEX, Balderdash, BGFixpack and Unfinished Business and/or part of the NPC1 project . The EE versions do not fix all the bugs and for some, they don’t even do as good a job as the above mods. The mods already identified all the bugs form the classic version and how to fix, why it is taking Beamdog so long? This was a literally a day project – OK I will give them two weeks to follow the standard production release checklist.

    I find it disturbing, for everyone involved, that you think Beamdog could have released the EEs in two weeks by just stealing other people's work. That is kinda unacceptable in many ways.

    You obviously have no idea how much work was put into the engine so that patchwork mods like the ones you listed no longer needed to be used. Using mods in vanilla was like putting a bandage over a severed limb. It might have hid the wound, but it was still bleeding through.

    You also probably don't know how much more mod friendly the new engine is making your statement extremely ironic.

    If SoD was a free mod released by an amateur individual or team I would clap my hands say great job because it is an above average 1st release of a mod. The modder usually wants people to like their work and usually takes constructive criticism well and works to improve their mod. Beamdog being the professionals where customers actually paid for the mod did initially express a different attitude of “this is the way it is and if you don’t like it too bad” or “we won’t change the mod and you can’t make us”. I really don’t understand their approach to customer service, but maybe they have changed their approach.
    There is a difference between constructive criticism and opinion. Many people really do not realize the difference and when they state an opinion, they think it is criticism. Beamdog, in the past, as well as currently, has listened to its fan base, both new and old players regarding the game, and made changes to reflect it.

    But as I said, there is a difference between criticism and opinion. If your opinion is that a certain character shouldn't act a certain way, or shouldn't have unique traits unfamiliar with the world, then that my friend, is too bad. They do not have to pander to everyone's whim, especially a vocal minority who haven't purchased, nor will purchase the product.

    You are taking one quote, by one writer, out of context and smearing it across the company as if it was their position on everything. Once again, unacceptable, and truly, should have stopped reading there but...

    What is wrong: Too much “dungeon by DM decree” and poor storytelling and dialog.
    1. Imoen not in party: This is an example of dungeon by DM decree. This has some back story and I can accept this decree even though I don’t like it.

    2. Lose all NPCs: Another example of dungeon by DM decree. I can understand the intent, but the implementation is just bad. Examples of how to fix:
    a. Dialog: NPC (like Kivan) says to charname “Now that I have avenged my wife, I feel I need some time to reflect. I am sure that you don’t mind if I return home now that our mission has been accomplished.
    b. Inventory Items – two options:
    i. Let the player keep all the items – consistent with what happens when an NPC is released
    ii. Add some dialog and consequences tied to home many items are taken.
    1. One Item: “Since you are leaving can you please return the item I lent you:
    a. NPC: No problem
    b. Player grabs a couple of items
    2. Too many items:
    a. NPC gets upset and reputation goes down
    c. If an NPC will be available for recruitment latter, let me know. Minsc says that he and Dynaheir will be in the tavern in town for the next couple of weeks in case charname needs them again. J&K let the charname know what they will be doing and give hints on where they can be recruited in the future.

    3. Lose all the gold: Another DM decree that is very poorly implemented. Also why is it important that charname looses all the gold? Don’t make a DM decree for no reason. The entire logic of this adventure does not make sense. If this was my gold I would bring the treasurer before the Dukes and demand his head, his entire life savings or my money back. I didn’t lose my gold, the city did and the city owes me a bunch of money. This is rank amateurism at the best and gross incompetence at the worst. The story must be logical and make sense, just don’t make a decree because you are in charge. An example of how to maybe do it better:
    a. BG to player: The city needs the money to fund the campaign and executes imminent domain and takes the money in exchange for a letter of credit and a promised 10% interest when they return the money later. Not just the player, but everyone. Add some dialog where everyone is complaining on the loss of gold. This gives the player another incentive to stop the crusade to get their money back.
    b. The letter of credit turns out to be very heavily discounted because of the shortage of cash – maybe 50% but allow the player to spend some of this money in the city. Of course outside the city no-one will take the credit.
    c. Turn the adventure of “getting your gold” back to a job the city offers you for hard cash, to protect a shipment of hard cash (some which is your gold). When you lose it the city blames you and deducts a percentage of what is lost from your credit account.

    4. Not being allowed to go back: This needs some work. The player needs to be able to go back, maybe add some consequences, but just not allowing the character to do something that is very logical makes this one of the first things that a mod will fix later. Another example of a very bad DM decree.
    If you are comparing Beamdog to being a DM, should you also hold the same esteem towards Bioware and the original games.

    Everything you mentioned here, happens in BG2 with no storytelling what so ever. Bioware did a very horrendous job at explaining how this happened that another company had to fill in the blanks for the player.

    Yes, players could make up their own story of what happened in their mind and be merrily ok with it, but as storytelling goes, it is very poorly done. Also, being able to do every single quest in chapter 2 before going to save Imoen is also poorly handled (you are on a time limit to save your friend), same with only having only two evil choices to get to Spellhold.


    (skipping 5 because I am not there yet)
    6. There are some other examples of DM decree that I have not listed and many other places where some good storytelling and dialog will polish SoD. The DM must gently lead the player into the path he needs to take, not push him kicking and screaming in that direction. The first option makes this a game to be played frequently, the last results in a game played once.
    Besides not being able to go back, which is more realistic because you're suppose to be leading a large army and they are not going to turn around just because you forgot to talk to a gnome in the woods, there is nothing in the game so far that suggests the player is being pushed kicking and screaming in one direction, unless of course you playing a pacifist and really do not want to help the city or stop a person that is sending assassins after you, which BTW, is the whole story line of the first Baldur's Gate game.

    There is a time limit, you need to get to a certain place before something drastic happens. This is more realistic than being able to traverse where ever you want while everyone else in the world waits for you to continue the main story. If you feel like you are being forced to do something, GOOD. That is proper storytelling.

    7. Politics: This is a fantasy world where a gender belt exists along with polymorph other and self spells. I would not have put in the TG issue in SoD in the beginning, but since it is already there some suggestions:
    a. Have this be revealed during a romance or a friendship
    b. Have an adventure associated with it. Example: NPC is using a polymorph other spell that wears off and wants to make it permanent but needs a special non-dispellable and safe polymorph other spell (remember you have a chance of dying with polymorph other). NPC asks charname for help to get the needed component and/or find the mage who can cast it. Maybe they need to do something special to convince the mage to cast the spell since charname won’t have enough gold to pay for it.
    c. I would prefer b.
    Did you know, the word transgender wasn't even mentioned in the game?

    Did you know, that someone in her position might actually being comfortable talking about why she needed to change her name because it is no big deal in the setting because they have gender belts and polymorph
    other spells?

    This is only a political issue to those who want to hide behind a the word "politics" when discussing their discomfort with another individuals preference on how they want to live their life.

    The only thing that needed to be changed in the dialog, in my opinion, is an explanation on what words she used and their meanings to create her new name. That is what we asked her about.

    But Beamdog has already stated that they have listened to their customers and are going to expand this character in a future patch. But that defeats your statement of them not listening to anyone so feel free to ignore it.
    SoD can be fixed if Beamdog is willing to invest some time and energy in Storytelling. D&D is a story and what makes BG great is it’s a story that gives the player an illusion of freedom. A good DM (which Beamdog needs to become) guides the player who makes the story their own. There are many books published on how to be a good DM and build a good story and lead the characters down that story lane while giving them the illusion of complete freedom. Beamdog just needs to go to school.

    PS: Also improve your customer service. Remember this is NOT a free mod, people actually paid money for it.

    I really want my dream to come true so please polish SoD so its worthy to be a mod that needs to be purchase and not similar to a free mod that you actually have to pay for.
    This is a large fallacy.

    Beamdog CAN'T be a DM. Reading books on how to be a better DM would be useless as that is not what they are. They are a video game company. They make video games.

    Video games, especially RPG video games, are stories, not D&D tabletop sessions. The video game has to give a player reason to do a certain action but the player has to conform to those reasons. Take BG2, you either want to go to spellhold to rescue Imoen or take revenge on Irenicus. What happens if a player doesn't choose to do either? Are they not being told by a DM that "this is how its going to be, take it or leave it?" A player can't just choose to leave Amn and head back to the Storm Coast to find out where that adorable Alora wandered off to.

    Compare that to SoD where you are given the reasons of helping the city, or to deal with a threat before they send more assassins after you. Sounds pretty similar to what happened in BG2, but with less railroading as you actually witness the state the city is in and actually have to fight off the assassins who were sent to kill you instead of watching a cut scene of a character you knew as thief cast a magic missile spell, even though all of her spells were exhausted escaping a dungeon, and to be taken away without the player being able to interfere.

    Every DMing by Decree you had an issue with, was actually explained in the game, either briefly (with little floating text explaining on what the NPCs are going to do once this last dungeon is cleared) or with quests that further explain the backstory of the game (gold going missing), except for the loot where, as a tabletop player, you should have realized that NPCs are given a cut of the loot and if they leave the party they take the loot with them, this is including all the cool weapons that they had. But in a video game, you can meta game this and just strip them bare of all their good stuff before they leave and the DM can't say anything, because there is no DM, only a story being told.

    So Beamdog really doesn't need to go to school. You just need to take off those rose colored glasses and actually critic games in a comparison to its predecessors. Once you do that, you will probably find that Beamdog did a pretty decent job with the what was handed to them by bridging the two games and answering questions that was plaguing the originals for 15 years.

    PS: Also their customer service is pretty decent. You really didn't give anything to suggest otherwise.
  • JurisJuris Member Posts: 113
    SoD is about on par with Throne of Bhaal. This is actually really good because it's between BG1 and BG2, so there wasn't a lot of room. You were going to get snatched by Irenicus, get tortured, lose all your stuff, and life was going to suck until you romanced Jaheira 15 minutes after Khalid died. I greatly enjoyed it. Will I play it 10x like BG or BG2? Probably not. Would I love Beamdog to do their own game from scratch? Yes, they have proven they can do more than just 'enhance' old games.
    And as for joining Caelar - see the part about Irenicus. Also, you'd be betraying Baldur's Gate, and since every NPC companion wants to stop the crusade...
  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016
    Jourin said:

    That is the polish I expect on a mod I have to pay for.

    STOP using this term. It's entirely a contradiction. SoD is not a mod. It's a freestanding game that ties together BG1 & BG2. Your insistence that it was "simply a mod you paid for" is both illogical and bad.
  • KerozevokKerozevok Member Posts: 695
    edited May 2016
    In general, I agree with that review... SOD was announced like a sequel for BG1, but finally it's a stand alone like "the black pits".
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