When I first got this game, I cheated a lot. I used shadow keeper to give my ranger/cleric anything that I wanted. But it took the challenge and hence, for me, the fun out of the game and I didn't play it again for a while. I actually didn't even finish that play through.
Now I only use convenience cheats, like multiple stacking, bottomless bags of holding, etc.
I don't use ctrl+r because I like to look at the beautiful hand drawn maps. I think that they are gorgeous. The beautiful hand drawn art in the infinity engine games is a big motivator for me, and teleporting without actually casting a spell takes away my fun.
I think that however you want to play the game is perfectly legit.
I shadow keeper Jaheira into a ranger/cleric instead of a fighter/druid, because I despise Druids. I will use keeper to change npc classes to fit my view of how they should be, mods or otherwise--for example, I change the branwen mod in bg2 from a pure cleric to a fighter-->cleric, because that is more in line with how I view her character. I love the G3 bg2 tweaks, but I don't use all of them because some of them feel game breaking to me.
I don't believe that cheating is actually possible in this game, because it is not a game about winning. It is a story told about a Charname that you take throughout his young adult life. This is a living game. However you play the game is not cheating because you play it by yourself (or with people who share your opinions of cheating).
I think that because there is such a wide range of what people consider to be cheating or not, that is where third party mods make mistakes. If they introduce characters or items that are impossible or incomparable to the vanilla game, then it could be considered to be a mistake--although that modder may not see it as cheating because that is how he plays the game, a user very well could because he only plays vanilla (or what he considers to be close to vanilla). So his audience is limited to people who play the same way, or close to the same way, that he does. If however, he writes a mod that plays like vanilla, then his audience has a broader spectrum of people and play styles. Those who play similar to him can just clua console or keeper whatever they want into the mod.
If he doesn't care whether or not his audience includes people whose play style differs from his own, then it obviously doesn't matter. But I think most modders want their work to be respected, at least, if not enjoyed, or even praised. None of what a modder does is necessarily cheating. People just call it that because they don't agree with it; those people just won't use or enjoy the mod.
That is why I think people see what they do in the game as cheater. Modder introduces item B into game, which player A really likes and modder really likes, because it makes the game easier and/or more enjoyable for them. But player B and player C plays the game closer a vanilla experience and they openly criticized modder and player A on the forums. Meanwhile, player D and player E both read those forums and think, "gosh that is how I play the game," and then they feel a little guilty for playing that way.
Then player E starts a forum asking whether or not what he does is cheating.
How can you possibly cheat at a game that you play by yourself? Do you play for enjoyment or to please forumites who disapprove of the way that you play?
I've tried my best to swear off cheating nowadays. Back in the old days, I did it all - ctrl-y, ctrl-r, ctrl-q, SetCurrentXP("-1"), cheating in top-tier items, you name it.
Nowadays, the challenge of the game keeps it fresh. Ctrl-J and SetGlobal are probably the only cheats I use recurringly.
When I first got this game, I cheated a lot. I used shadow keeper to give my ranger/cleric anything that I wanted. But it took the challenge and hence, for me, the fun out of the game
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If they introduce characters or items that are impossible or incomparable to the vanilla game, then it could be considered to be a mistake--although that modder may not see it as cheating because that is how he plays the game, a user very well could because he only plays vanilla (or what he considers to be close to vanilla). So his audience is limited to people who play the same way, or close to the same way, that he does. If however, he writes a mod that plays like vanilla, then his audience has a broader spectrum of people and play styles. Those who play similar to him can just clua console or keeper whatever they want into the mod.
If he doesn't care whether or not his audience includes people whose play style differs from his own, then it obviously doesn't matter.
I see your point. But is hard to define what is a vanilla game, in the first version of the original items like RoV and Shield of Balduran did not exist, I started to play without them, and EE introduced new items, some of them powerful. Also there are players who use mods that change the balance of the game rising the difficulty and players that don't do it. Using an OP item, even the ones that are in the unmodded EE, like the Robe of Vecna, in a vanilla difficulty game break it, more then use it and an other OP mod item in an high difficulty enviroment.
What is vanilla and what is not change over time, as the developers add new things or nerf others. Sorry, fix bugs. Also what is unbalancing or breaking is only relative to the particular setup of each modded game, and the choices of the player (some of us decide to don't use the vanilla reloads or some vanilla OP spells or to solo a not OP class and so on) And what is unbalancing or breaking is only relative to the particular feelings of a player. I make an example. In the vanilla game the only class that can not have a +1APR weapon is the cleric (mages have throwing dagger), for me a +2 mace, use restricted to clerics, no other effects added, is balancing. For others another +1APR weapon is unbalancing, for the reason that there are already too much in the game. Both positions are fine and both have good reasons, only the personal feeling change. An other example based on an existing item and an existing mod. For someone a mod that lets upgrade Celestial Fury to better enchantment is unbalancing, and they have their good reasons. For me maybe that mod (Item Upgrade) could have made it upgradable later in the game, the stun (with save) effect is very strong, but in ToB where you can have a +6 vorpal weapon with no save and a +5 one with save but that add a strong regeneration and an AC, bonus a +2 enchantment (and static damage) to CF is not unbalaincing at all. Both positions have good reasons.
If a modder CARE whether or not his audience includes people whose play style differs from his own CAN also care to add powerful items for the players who use high difficulty environments, or just for players who like easy life and/or love OP items.
And is true that an OP item can be EEkeepered in, but it has to exist ( some "evil" modder has to create it) or the player has to create it himself (is not difficult, but some lack the knowledge to do it). And a player is not compelled to use an OP item, in my actual run in the bag of holding there are a vanilla OP shield and some OP mod items and 12 green scrolls, I mean "those" scrolls, 2 of them from vanilla and 10 from a mod. All items that was never used (I am just too itemcolic to don't have something OP that I find, even if I know that I will never use it ).
For me the modder who really care of every player, and not only of the ones who play with is own style, is the one that add powerful items but don't force the players into use them (thing that can be done adding an item to an NPC and flagging it as undroppable and in other ways).
And both your point of view and mine are fine.
But I agree at 100% with the first sentence that I have quoted, also for me no challenge=no fun.
I would have to respectfully disagree mashedtaters. I think most people would be able to agree on what counts as blatant cheating, then there is of course a big grey area. It is possible to cheat in a single player game, even in single player card games irl. Quite a few games have cheatcodes for example. This game is imho built to be realistic in the given setting.
The game is absolutely here for everyone to enjoy, no disagreement there. And some like using cheats, MODs or tactics that make the game easier.
I don't care if other people like using that stuff, it just isn't for me.
@Otherguy, I respectfully disagree with you as I don't think that there is a common agreement about what is cheating in a single player game. My opinion is that cheating implies the use of tools not available normally in the game to the players to have an effect that other way is not possible. So for me cheating implies the use of cheat codes, cluaconsole, EEkeeper or modding tools to operate a change. cheat codes and cluaconsole are implemented in the game, but are not accessible to players unless a file is edited, to allow debug mode (so is a developer tool, not a player tool) or enable cheats (self speaking...). Other people regard as cheating things that I call cheap tactics or exploiting. And as cheating implies the use of both trickery and breaking the rules they can have good reasons. But we can debate for weeks about exploiting AI weakness, hard to tell if is a fraudulent trick or a cheap but legittimate tactic.
If we can not even find a common agreement on what cheating is I don't see how can we agree if something is a blatant cheat. We maybe can agree that is something that kill the challenge, or that change the balance of the game, but not if that thing is a cheat or something other.
This is semantics, or philosophy, or both. English isn't my native language so of course I might be missing something. But still. I can't really see how some people might call some of the cheats used by some other name, console etc. Abusing AI and game engine or using OP items might not be considered cheating by some. But calling it by another name doesn't really make it anything else.
But calling it by another name doesn't really make it anything else.
All the semantics and their importance (or unimportance) aside, why is there a need to classify things in the first place? It seems obvious that these issues are difficult to objectively define and/or group, but why would you need to? Decide on a per-case basis, and for yourself.
I have things I do, and things I don't do. That's the categories I find useful. Whether it's "cheat", "exploit", "tweak" or whatever else doesn't really matter and I don't see a point in trying to fit things into such neat little boxes to begin with.
@Otherguy (written before reading @Lord_Tansheron post) English isn't the native language also for me, and I learned it mostly travelling and talking with people, I have big problems in writing in english. But I don't think that this is the problems because also native english speakers call blatant cheating what for me is not cheating at all. Is not only semantics or philosophy. I make a couple of examples so it will be more clear. There are some OP items and spells in the game, using them is legittimate, other way they will have been removed or not implemented at all. Some experienced players can decide to don't use them, to rise challenge, for less experienced ones they can be life savers. But how many time I did read on this and other boards "the cloak of cheese" if not of cheat, "the cheating weapon", the "cheating tactic" (to describe the use of some spells as they are implemented, not for some exploit using them". and as cheating has a "bad" connotation I don't like to read such things, i find them not respectful for who is still learning and has to use those legit (but sometimes very easy) things to beat the game. The other example is about resting, another legit thing, and there is no rule that tell how often you can rest. For some people resting often is a necessity, as they are learning the magic system and waste 3 spells each 4 they cast, because they are not so effective, or get disrupted. And their fighters are damaged a lot, because are used in a not optimal way. Some more advanced players rest less, they just don't need all that rests, others choose to go minimum rest to rise the challenge. Calling cheat or cheesy resting often is judgmental. And picking the enemies one by one? In real life is a good tactic. In a CRPG can be abusing the weakness of the AI, but by definition the man can only beat a machine in a game abusing its AI weakness, a computer with an enough good AI can win against the chess world champion... Where is the borderline between cheating and fair game in abusing it? the answer is the same than before, depends on the level of the player. So I prefer a not judgmental use of words like cheating and cheese, I prefer a more technical one. Cheating is breaking rules, cheese is exploiting something. And then we can talk of different tactics, items and spells and how they can be at some stage of our learning how to play life savers or things that we don't use anymore because with them we don't find challenge. So you are right, is philosophy, the philosophy to be less judgmental as possible and respect each player at his stage of knowledge.
@gorgonzola, @Otherguy, It was not my intention to start a debate. When I come accross the word cheat, I (and I think most people feel the same way) am reminded of dishonesty and rule-breaking to another (real) person in order to gain an unfair advantage over them, i.e., swapping pieces in a chess game while your opponent isn't looking, or punching someone in the face as they are about to score a goal in soccer. It turns what is supposed to be an enjoyable thing for two people into a not so enjoyable thing for both (unless you're into that kind of thing, than by all means). This is clearly impossible in a single player game like baldurs gate.
Does what you do in baldurs gate ruin your enjoyment? You're by yourself. There is no one there to judge but you. Cheating is a judgement that some people feel guilty about. If you're judging yourself because you're cheating, and feeling guilty about it, then, well, don't. It's your game and no one can lose or win. It's supposed to be fun, however you play.
Modders have found ways to enhance their game and wish to share that wth others. I was not attempting to criticize. Some modders like to produce for themselves, and see if others want to enjoy it, too. Most modders, I think, want their work to be enjoyed by the community. But the community, being on the Internet, is not always very nice or forgiving of things that they don't agree with. Hence the scenario I painted above.
You can't please everyone, and modders and users are no different. However, modding as close to what you see as vanilla as you can is the safest route, in my opinion, if your goal is to have your mod enjoyed by as many people in the modding community as possible.
If that's not your goal (as is clearly the case with certain mods and modders), then do whatever you want! This is a game to be enjoyed for yourself, not for someone else.
The title of this thread asked about how we cheat and cheese. I answered how much I cheat and cheese.
Agreeing over the terms would take a long discussion. Using cheatcodes/cluaconsoles is imho the very definition of cheating though, then there are of course a lot of grey areas.
To each his own.
I have no right to judge people who likes to play the game in Another way. So I don't.
@Kortok, you are too much impatient. my favorite tactic is sitting on the docks in Bridge District and wait for the corpses of the game bosses floating in the tide of the river. Interesting things sometime happen, someone is skinned, a cat eat a mouse, my friend Rampah come and we have a chat. Now is 15 years that I am waiting, but life is long and I have time.
Here goes... I am quite the "cheater"... or use the engine and map knowledge for the upper hand. i feel guilty about it most of the time
i cheat a lot by reloading if things don't go my way every turn. terrible habit.
i attack people such as the skinner in the docks district without doing my research because I know he is guilty and don't want to waste the time talking to the townspeople to confirm.
if there is only one reason for me to be in a map, sometimes I will ExploreArea() and then CTRL-J to get what I need and then CTRL-J to leave.
although not cheating, i cheese the beginning of bgee alot by stealing the cape of charm person and it makes my solo early solo encounters easy as pie. (greywolf, charm, backstab him, equip him with fists so when he breaks charm he is just punching me lol) (mulahey, charm him, use all his spells, backstab him) (the four chicks outside the exit of the mines, mind control one and spam hold person on everyone) (the firewine swordsman, backstab him and make him use his fists)
I do the same thing in bg2ee, I also cheese the beginning pretty badly to get my power level pretty high. Usually go from waukeens to circus tent, get the charm humanoid ring, solo den of the seven vales and have 15,000g before leaving waukeens, do slums then immediately to city gates, grab daystar which is ridiculously op, grab namarra, grab some other low hanging fruit items and sell/use them. Immediately talk to the guy in city gates who will lead me to trademeet where I can get scroll of improved haste and belm
immediately upon entering baldurs gate I kill ramazith in cold blood for his necklace and ring, then get his tome, go get the helm of balduran after that, hit the sewers and get the cloak of balduran as well. Buy a bunch of potions from sorcerous sundries so I have 24 str 25 dex and potion of power and kill drizzt. if i am feeling frisky I will just lay 7 traps and lead him into them as i did on my current playthrough. as an evil elven FMT, i thought that was acceptable since I can't use his -2ac +3 scimitar, but it did sell for nicely. ended that BGEE campaign with over 150k gold since I never had to buy anything (robe of evil archmagi drops)
also, in bgee when I play an inquisitor (or any elven charname) i immediately get the +1 2h sword (or any magic item) and then go to AR3600 (lighthouse book of con) and kill the dire charm (im immune) sirines for 2000exp each. also if im not a mage, ill recruit dynaheir to my party, take her immediately to the basilisk map, cast protection from petrification on my charname, remove her and then go collect all that exp.
I also abuse Yoshimo if I solo run without a thief, pickpocket ribald immediately, open the locked chest for daystar, and go unlock gaxxs door.. then promptly kick him out again
I usually don't cheat. But when the game cheats me, I do. For example, I hit Firkraag to Near Death and then the game just decided that I didn't deserve the XP (and the Most Powerful Vanquished) and it made him commit suicide. I used CLUAConsole to divide 64,000 XP among my party and used EEKeeper to set the last person who hit him's Most Powerful Vanquished to Firkraag.
I've actually never even used the console, but use EEkeeper a lot. I change classes and kits around to make things more interesting. So I made Imoen a skald so I could have both her and Alora in the party (such joy!). Also changing proficencies so Korgan can use Celestial fury or the like.
Back in the days of original BG1 I always used the glitch that would give you +65000 of a gem or bandit scalp. But since I didn't know much english back then, and knew nothing of thac0 and saving throws, it didn't really do me much good. "Ah yes, my AC is now 3! ..... .....is that good?"
also, in bgee when I play an inquisitor (or any elven charname) i immediately get the +1 2h sword (or any magic item) and then go to AR3600 (lighthouse book of con) and kill the dire charm (im immune) sirines for 2000exp each. also if im not a mage, ill recruit dynaheir to my party, take her immediately to the basilisk map, cast protection from petrification on my charname, remove her and then go collect all that exp. I also abuse Yoshimo if I solo run without a thief, pickpocket ribald immediately, open the locked chest for daystar, and go unlock gaxxs door.. then promptly kick him out again
you can buy a scroll of protection from petrification for 800 gp at the nashkel carnival. it lasts really long so you'll have plenty of time to do the basilisk map with it.
you can smack open pretty much all these things in bg2. Roger the fence sells all the potions you would need + DUHM if you're a good guy
1. have indentify all items on 2. make it so npcs don't fight and don't leave due to rep 3. i used to spam cntrl r but story mode makes that redundant. 4. i use cntrl j when i don't feel like going across the map 5. i use cntrl y on enemies that annoy me mostly mindflyers.
I use EEkeeper for all kinds of illegal class shenanigans. Use the console to fully reveal maps after I've explored them (can't stand lingering, unreachable fog of war). CTRL+J for backtracking, mostly convienance stuff and things that let me try neat things.
Don't use the CLUA console to cheat normally but will use exploits like fake-talking to neutral enemies and abusing area transitions to bring out mobs.
Wow, I used to think I cheated a lot. Now I know I'm totally a noob at cheating.
I've only gone through the whole trilogy once way back in ~2008 or so, though I had BG2 since preordering the Collector's Edition way back when.
I made a Moonblade with pretty much immunity to any web/hold/stun/paralysis/sleep or instant death effect plus the Shield of Balduran's beholder ray reflecting and had it on my vanilla Elf Ranger and pretty much just facetanked anything I didn't bowkite. Took me weeks to make it back in 2004 or so when I didn't know much about editing and the tools were less intuitive.
My current(ly aborted run) I have a max racial stat+BG1 Tomes Elven Fighter/Thief with a Shadowdancer kit keepered on. So I have something like 19 Strength, 20 Dex, 21 Con. I tweaked Tashia's starting spell list although it is pretty optimized for fighting. I redo everyone's HP so they all have max HP. I recorded every item looted in Chateau Irenicus' and multiply how many battleaxes+0 and leather armor+0s there are by what they sell for so I imagine that I hauled them ALL out to sell. It amounts to something like 1800-2000 gp or so. In practice I tend to kite mages and such by letting them start to cast then run away and hide.
I don't loop stealing-selling because there's plenty of money without it. I don't use ctrl keys, except I've started instant killing because I have some wierd thing where I get random encounters, but then they all try running away. So I kill them all before they have time to run.
I pretty much have the gamefaqs pulled up all the time and am constantly checking it to make sure I've leeched every bit of content from every map.
A lot of my cheating is done in mod setups such as enabling grandmastery for all the fighter-types, plus unnerfing it.
I reload almost constantly.
I dig through dialogues with NearInfinity and DLTCEP and follow the dialog paths that are longest. Or sometimes the ones that result in the most amusing in a what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you kind of way.
Comments
Now I only use convenience cheats, like multiple stacking, bottomless bags of holding, etc.
I don't use ctrl+r because I like to look at the beautiful hand drawn maps. I think that they are gorgeous. The beautiful hand drawn art in the infinity engine games is a big motivator for me, and teleporting without actually casting a spell takes away my fun.
I think that however you want to play the game is perfectly legit.
I shadow keeper Jaheira into a ranger/cleric instead of a fighter/druid, because I despise Druids. I will use keeper to change npc classes to fit my view of how they should be, mods or otherwise--for example, I change the branwen mod in bg2 from a pure cleric to a fighter-->cleric, because that is more in line with how I view her character. I love the G3 bg2 tweaks, but I don't use all of them because some of them feel game breaking to me.
I don't believe that cheating is actually possible in this game, because it is not a game about winning. It is a story told about a Charname that you take throughout his young adult life. This is a living game. However you play the game is not cheating because you play it by yourself (or with people who share your opinions of cheating).
I think that because there is such a wide range of what people consider to be cheating or not, that is where third party mods make mistakes. If they introduce characters or items that are impossible or incomparable to the vanilla game, then it could be considered to be a mistake--although that modder may not see it as cheating because that is how he plays the game, a user very well could because he only plays vanilla (or what he considers to be close to vanilla). So his audience is limited to people who play the same way, or close to the same way, that he does. If however, he writes a mod that plays like vanilla, then his audience has a broader spectrum of people and play styles. Those who play similar to him can just clua console or keeper whatever they want into the mod.
If he doesn't care whether or not his audience includes people whose play style differs from his own, then it obviously doesn't matter. But I think most modders want their work to be respected, at least, if not enjoyed, or even praised. None of what a modder does is necessarily cheating. People just call it that because they don't agree with it; those people just won't use or enjoy the mod.
That is why I think people see what they do in the game as cheater. Modder introduces item B into game, which player A really likes and modder really likes, because it makes the game easier and/or more enjoyable for them. But player B and player C plays the game closer a vanilla experience and they openly criticized modder and player A on the forums. Meanwhile, player D and player E both read those forums and think, "gosh that is how I play the game," and then they feel a little guilty for playing that way.
Then player E starts a forum asking whether or not what he does is cheating.
How can you possibly cheat at a game that you play by yourself? Do you play for enjoyment or to please forumites who disapprove of the way that you play?
Nowadays, the challenge of the game keeps it fresh. Ctrl-J and SetGlobal are probably the only cheats I use recurringly.
But is hard to define what is a vanilla game, in the first version of the original items like RoV and Shield of Balduran did not exist, I started to play without them, and EE introduced new items, some of them powerful.
Also there are players who use mods that change the balance of the game rising the difficulty and players that don't do it. Using an OP item, even the ones that are in the unmodded EE, like the Robe of Vecna, in a vanilla difficulty game break it, more then use it and an other OP mod item in an high difficulty enviroment.
What is vanilla and what is not change over time, as the developers add new things or nerf others. Sorry, fix bugs.
Also what is unbalancing or breaking is only relative to the particular setup of each modded game, and the choices of the player (some of us decide to don't use the vanilla reloads or some vanilla OP spells or to solo a not OP class and so on)
And what is unbalancing or breaking is only relative to the particular feelings of a player. I make an example. In the vanilla game the only class that can not have a +1APR weapon is the cleric (mages have throwing dagger), for me a +2 mace, use restricted to clerics, no other effects added, is balancing. For others another +1APR weapon is unbalancing, for the reason that there are already too much in the game. Both positions are fine and both have good reasons, only the personal feeling change.
An other example based on an existing item and an existing mod. For someone a mod that lets upgrade Celestial Fury to better enchantment is unbalancing, and they have their good reasons. For me maybe that mod (Item Upgrade) could have made it upgradable later in the game, the stun (with save) effect is very strong, but in ToB where you can have a +6 vorpal weapon with no save and a +5 one with save but that add a strong regeneration and an AC, bonus a +2 enchantment (and static damage) to CF is not unbalaincing at all. Both positions have good reasons.
If a modder CARE whether or not his audience includes people whose play style differs from his own CAN also care to add powerful items for the players who use high difficulty environments, or just for players who like easy life and/or love OP items.
And is true that an OP item can be EEkeepered in, but it has to exist ( some "evil" modder has to create it) or the player has to create it himself (is not difficult, but some lack the knowledge to do it).
And a player is not compelled to use an OP item, in my actual run in the bag of holding there are a vanilla OP shield and some OP mod items and 12 green scrolls, I mean "those" scrolls, 2 of them from vanilla and 10 from a mod. All items that was never used (I am just too itemcolic to don't have something OP that I find, even if I know that I will never use it
For me the modder who really care of every player, and not only of the ones who play with is own style, is the one that add powerful items but don't force the players into use them (thing that can be done adding an item to an NPC and flagging it as undroppable and in other ways).
And both your point of view and mine are fine.
But I agree at 100% with the first sentence that I have quoted, also for me no challenge=no fun.
The game is absolutely here for everyone to enjoy, no disagreement there. And some like using cheats, MODs or tactics that make the game easier.
I don't care if other people like using that stuff, it just isn't for me.
I respectfully disagree with you as I don't think that there is a common agreement about what is cheating in a single player game. My opinion is that cheating implies the use of tools not available normally in the game to the players to have an effect that other way is not possible. So for me cheating implies the use of cheat codes, cluaconsole, EEkeeper or modding tools to operate a change. cheat codes and cluaconsole are implemented in the game, but are not accessible to players unless a file is edited, to allow debug mode (so is a developer tool, not a player tool) or enable cheats (self speaking...).
Other people regard as cheating things that I call cheap tactics or exploiting.
And as cheating implies the use of both trickery and breaking the rules they can have good reasons. But we can debate for weeks about exploiting AI weakness, hard to tell if is a fraudulent trick or a cheap but legittimate tactic.
If we can not even find a common agreement on what cheating is I don't see how can we agree if something is a blatant cheat.
We maybe can agree that is something that kill the challenge, or that change the balance of the game, but not if that thing is a cheat or something other.
I have things I do, and things I don't do. That's the categories I find useful. Whether it's "cheat", "exploit", "tweak" or whatever else doesn't really matter and I don't see a point in trying to fit things into such neat little boxes to begin with.
English isn't the native language also for me, and I learned it mostly travelling and talking with people, I have big problems in writing in english. But I don't think that this is the problems because also native english speakers call blatant cheating what for me is not cheating at all. Is not only semantics or philosophy.
I make a couple of examples so it will be more clear. There are some OP items and spells in the game, using them is legittimate, other way they will have been removed or not implemented at all. Some experienced players can decide to don't use them, to rise challenge, for less experienced ones they can be life savers. But how many time I did read on this and other boards "the cloak of cheese" if not of cheat, "the cheating weapon", the "cheating tactic" (to describe the use of some spells as they are implemented, not for some exploit using them". and as cheating has a "bad" connotation I don't like to read such things, i find them not respectful for who is still learning and has to use those legit (but sometimes very easy) things to beat the game.
The other example is about resting, another legit thing, and there is no rule that tell how often you can rest.
For some people resting often is a necessity, as they are learning the magic system and waste 3 spells each 4 they cast, because they are not so effective, or get disrupted. And their fighters are damaged a lot, because are used in a not optimal way. Some more advanced players rest less, they just don't need all that rests, others choose to go minimum rest to rise the challenge. Calling cheat or cheesy resting often is judgmental.
And picking the enemies one by one? In real life is a good tactic. In a CRPG can be abusing the weakness of the AI, but by definition the man can only beat a machine in a game abusing its AI weakness, a computer with an enough good AI can win against the chess world champion...
Where is the borderline between cheating and fair game in abusing it? the answer is the same than before, depends on the level of the player.
So I prefer a not judgmental use of words like cheating and cheese, I prefer a more technical one.
Cheating is breaking rules, cheese is exploiting something.
And then we can talk of different tactics, items and spells and how they can be at some stage of our learning how to play life savers or things that we don't use anymore because with them we don't find challenge.
So you are right, is philosophy, the philosophy to be less judgmental as possible and respect each player at his stage of knowledge.
It was not my intention to start a debate. When I come accross the word cheat, I (and I think most people feel the same way) am reminded of dishonesty and rule-breaking to another (real) person in order to gain an unfair advantage over them, i.e., swapping pieces in a chess game while your opponent isn't looking, or punching someone in the face as they are about to score a goal in soccer. It turns what is supposed to be an enjoyable thing for two people into a not so enjoyable thing for both (unless you're into that kind of thing, than by all means). This is clearly impossible in a single player game like baldurs gate.
Does what you do in baldurs gate ruin your enjoyment? You're by yourself. There is no one there to judge but you. Cheating is a judgement that some people feel guilty about. If you're judging yourself because you're cheating, and feeling guilty about it, then, well, don't. It's your game and no one can lose or win. It's supposed to be fun, however you play.
Modders have found ways to enhance their game and wish to share that wth others. I was not attempting to criticize. Some modders like to produce for themselves, and see if others want to enjoy it, too. Most modders, I think, want their work to be enjoyed by the community. But the community, being on the Internet, is not always very nice or forgiving of things that they don't agree with. Hence the scenario I painted above.
You can't please everyone, and modders and users are no different. However, modding as close to what you see as vanilla as you can is the safest route, in my opinion, if your goal is to have your mod enjoyed by as many people in the modding community as possible.
If that's not your goal (as is clearly the case with certain mods and modders), then do whatever you want! This is a game to be enjoyed for yourself, not for someone else.
Agreeing over the terms would take a long discussion. Using cheatcodes/cluaconsoles is imho the very definition of cheating though, then there are of course a lot of grey areas.
To each his own.
I have no right to judge people who likes to play the game in Another way. So I don't.
Enjoy this Amazing game.
my favorite tactic is sitting on the docks in Bridge District and wait for the corpses of the game bosses floating in the tide of the river.
Interesting things sometime happen, someone is skinned, a cat eat a mouse, my friend Rampah come and we have a chat.
Now is 15 years that I am waiting, but life is long and I have time.
I also use higher item stacks, usually 120, and will add a bag of holding to my party if I don't feel like playing the inventory game.
Back in the days of original BG1 I always used the glitch that would give you +65000 of a gem or bandit scalp. But since I didn't know much english back then, and knew nothing of thac0 and saving throws, it didn't really do me much good. "Ah yes, my AC is now 3! ..... .....is that good?"
you can smack open pretty much all these things in bg2. Roger the fence sells all the potions you would need + DUHM if you're a good guy
1. have indentify all items on
2. make it so npcs don't fight and don't leave due to rep
3. i used to spam cntrl r but story mode makes that redundant.
4. i use cntrl j when i don't feel like going across the map
5. i use cntrl y on enemies that annoy me mostly mindflyers.
I've only gone through the whole trilogy once way back in ~2008 or so, though I had BG2 since preordering the Collector's Edition way back when.
I made a Moonblade with pretty much immunity to any web/hold/stun/paralysis/sleep or instant death effect plus the Shield of Balduran's beholder ray reflecting and had it on my vanilla Elf Ranger and pretty much just facetanked anything I didn't bowkite. Took me weeks to make it back in 2004 or so when I didn't know much about editing and the tools were less intuitive.
My current(ly aborted run) I have a max racial stat+BG1 Tomes Elven Fighter/Thief with a Shadowdancer kit keepered on. So I have something like 19 Strength, 20 Dex, 21 Con.
I tweaked Tashia's starting spell list although it is pretty optimized for fighting.
I redo everyone's HP so they all have max HP.
I recorded every item looted in Chateau Irenicus' and multiply how many battleaxes+0 and leather armor+0s there are by what they sell for so I imagine that I hauled them ALL out to sell. It amounts to something like 1800-2000 gp or so.
In practice I tend to kite mages and such by letting them start to cast then run away and hide.
I don't loop stealing-selling because there's plenty of money without it. I don't use ctrl keys, except I've started instant killing because I have some wierd thing where I get random encounters, but then they all try running away. So I kill them all before they have time to run.
I pretty much have the gamefaqs pulled up all the time and am constantly checking it to make sure I've leeched every bit of content from every map.
A lot of my cheating is done in mod setups such as enabling grandmastery for all the fighter-types, plus unnerfing it.
I reload almost constantly.
I dig through dialogues with NearInfinity and DLTCEP and follow the dialog paths that are longest. Or sometimes the ones that result in the most amusing in a what-the-hell-is-wrong-with-you kind of way.