For me it's not just the immersing terrific story you are creating on the go while hunting for the ultimate answer but mainly the choice of NPCs you can get. No human cleric, halfling thief or elf mage you'd expect...
You get a spirit warrior You get a floating skull warrior You get a robot archer You get a burning levitating man mage You get a succubus priest or a Gith'zerai fighter/mage
The only NPC that actually falls into a category is a tiefling fighter/thief. And even she is a lovable iconic and memorable character I can never go without. There's just so much difference and depth across them while still not feeling like totally random inclusions. This seals the deal for me.
And I wish there was another game giving you this much freedom of choice. I feel like PS:T's choices were all in the spirit of thinking outside the box. Never seen similar.
Everyone mentions the story and the atmosphere. For me it is something else. It is not just the story, but the way it unfolds.
Now let's see if I can explain this without spoiling too much.
You obviously have heard that PST deals with the nature of a man and with situations that can or cannot change this nature. The developers constantly make you think about it by putting you in different situations like death, love, experience, all of which can in theory change the nature of your hero. Using amnesia as a narrative trick, you project yourself to the NO. So in the end you decide first hand which of these situations could potentially change your nature.
Again without spoiling to much, when the time comes to answer this question, you will be surprised to discover yourself which answer is considered correct by the NPC asking.
Finally, there is a secondary philosophical theme in the game about the connection of mortality and morality. This is usually overlooked, maybe because it is more obvious towards the end of the game.
I would gladly discuss these more, though it is better to find out for yourself.
Edit: I should also add that there are several small things that boost storytelling, like for example most if not all joinable party members struggle with their own nature in a way.
It's a game with tons of text, but text is presented with a plethora of narrative tricks. Amnesia, undeath, metaphors and more. It is text with actual meaning.
Allow me to make a comparison with another text heavy game. Pillars of eternity has so many text lines , but is there really a point? These lines just describe the world, the setting. You will often find yourself scrolling down or reading fast. This never happens in PST.
So, was this game good from the beginning or did it somehow get better by the years ? And if it was so good from start, how come a 2nd game didnt come ?
I never got far into it, but this thread is making wanna take another crack at it. I still have a gog copy lying on my computer. Who knows, maybe this will be the attempt that clicks.
@sarevok57 Don't get fooled though, PST has its flaws. The character creation system is indeed relatively poor compared to other 2nd edition games.
However, the leveling system compensates for this loss. The main character quickly becomes extremely powerful. And I do not mean powerful inside the D&D system. He is a unique being and the rules are changed just for him. Undeath, regeneration, insane stats, spell variety , easy Hide in shadows and being able to cast resurrection even as a fighter are good examples.
The only NPC that actually falls into a category is a tiefling fighter/thief. And even she is a lovable iconic and memorable character I can never go without. There's just so much difference and depth across them while still not feeling like totally random inclusions. This seals the deal for me.
And yet, Anna Path is the coolest expression of tiefling, which for me is the coolest race in all D&D franchises. And unlike Haer Dalis, who was using the graphics of an elf or half elf, Anna gets a tail. Like it should be.
@lordkim It was hit by the classic double-whammy: ahead of its time and poorly promoted.
For me, any D&D video game in the 90s was in my radar. Planescape was a very cool setting, something like playing in a Jim Henson world, and those Tony DiTerlizzi art!
Its like playing a book. Make of that what you will.
When people start saying stuff like that, I start thinking I won't buy this or play it. The original version has been sitting in my GoG library, untouched for years. If I want to read a book, I'll read a book. When I want to play a game, I want to play a game, not read a book.
when people say it's like reading a book it's like how people say playing a metal gear solid game is like watching a movie. it's not a visual novel [ don't get me wrong i love visual novels.] there is gameplay it's just the text outways the combat. 90% text 10% combat.
planescape has more lines of text when talking to people then anyother game untill tides. even motb which can be considered a successor does not have as much text as this game.
@sarevok57 It's true that Planescape:Torment doesn't present itself many options for the player to customize the main character. In a way Torment can resemble a very dialogue heavy adventure game, but with the huge difference that it's not.
What i personally think is great with Torment is it's setting, and how you're presented with options to finish you're journey based on which paths you take, consequences based on your very actions, and how your character stats reflect how you complete quests.
First of all P:T takes Place in Sigil, which is a plane in the multiverse, much like Toril (where Icewind Dale and BG takes place). With the very difference that the people in Sigil often travel to different planes (every portal from a specific plane connects to Sigil, if i'm not mistaken). Sigil also differs in that all kind of creatures resides in Sigil (such as Humans, devils, angels etc), and that deitys aren'r allowed to approach Sigil to get followers. Few have tried, most recent the deity of planes Aoskar, who was slain by Sigils current rules, the lady of Pain. The opposite if also true, Citizens of Sigil aren't allowed to worship deities, those who try are often slained by the lady of pain. However, since people aren't allowed to worship gods, they instead belive in ideas. Strong beliefs can change the world, in an abstract way.
Every quest present itself with defferent outcomes, and can be completed differently based on your stats. There is no alignment, but you're identity is an outcome based on your actions rather than what you choosed in the beginning. So if you really want to play the Paladin archtype, you better behave like a saint, or you're gonna fail misserably.
So Planescape:Torment is a unique experience, that is somewhat niche, but should get played atleast once in your lifetime.
As far as why there wasn't a Torment sequel until recently:
The game was a passion project from Avellone and to a degree Brian Fargo, in the later 90's when a passion project, unlikely to make big money, was proposed, Interplay was on top of the world, so they likely didn't have a lot putting the brakes on so to speak. The game wasn't advertised very extensively, that is true too, everybody knew about Baldur's Gate when it released to say nothing of the huge ad campaign for NWN, they had ads all over every kind of gaming related media at the time. This was not the case for Torment, likely because it was assumed it would never gross that much anyway.
A lot of folks who like RPGs do so for a time-sink and for the thrill of combat - Torment really doesn't have any of the mechanics of time sink games, nor does it feature combat prominently - in fact the original intention was to have a game that was almost completely devoid of combat - a fair helping was added out of fear, essentially, that such a game would be too alien to the audience that was likely to pick it up.
I should also say that the original intention for the infinity engine was very much more IWD than Torment - it was even originally called "infinite battles" iirc. So, the thinking at the time was very combat oriented, and the runaway success of Diablo 2 probably only reinforced that way of thinking.
The other issue is that, Torment, although regularly at the top of "greatest RPGs of all time" lists and so forth, and acclaim from players at the time, it didn't gross the kind of money that a BG1-2 did, and by 2001 Interplay was in dire financial straits. Black Isle was hard at work on NWN and a slew of other projects that were expected to make big money (sequel to Fallout, sequel to BG2) and then they lost their WotC license, so they couldn't make a D&D game anymore, and that was the final nail in the coffin.
So, likely, even had they wanted to make a sequel to Torment immediately, the universe conspired against such a thing, and Black Isle would be gone 4 years after the release of Torment.
I remember buying bg2 for the first time and the preview movie that would play when you first installed bg2 was the trailer for nwn and the funny thing is, it was advertised that nwn would use 3rd edition dnd rules, and yet there was a tooltip in bg2 that said you could import your bg2 character into nwn nights
I was always curious into what the logic was behind that? with 2 games that had not only widely different engines, but a widely different rule set, maybe when they made the tool tips for bg2 that was done before the idea that nwn was going to be 3rd edition
@sarevok57 If i remember correctly, someone at Bioware said that they wanted to do it, but changed their minds after they where introduced with the 3ed rules.
The early 3rd edition differs in that it didn't support epic levels right from the beginning, also, stats where streamlined (you can have more than 25 in said attribute), which also makes it incompatible with 2ed. The Xp tables is also very different in 2ed, respectively 3ed, in that it takes more xp for certain classes to level up in 2ed, compared to the latter edition. A 2ed level 31 mage (converted to 3ed) would have the equivelent xp of a 48-49 level wizard (based on my own estimation), and with tomes, and other bonuses, be as powerful as some gods. And even if they reset the xp progression of said character, they would still, probably, have to high stats, and thus break the gamebalance.
Also, i found this post on another forum: It was planned, but dropped because they couldn't think of any reason to deprive you of not only your items but your experience (since they decided to start you at low level). And with the changeover from 2e to 3e, it would've ended up being about the same as making a new character anyway.
Besides the really interesting story and the great NPCs I really like the fact that your attributes matter. If you are intelligent enough, wise enough or charismatic enough, whole new paths open in the game and it does not feel forced, it flows naturally from the fact you have godlike attributes.
This statement is more true than I thought it would be.
really? I remember installing the original bg1 or perhaps it was TotSC and it would play the torment trailer ( the other game played the decent 3 trailer)
Unlike TToN, PST offers plenty of fighting. You can re-watch our trailer- there's a lot of action in PST. Attacks, spells (many of them unique, if compared to BG and IWD).
This statement is more true than I thought it would be.
really? I remember installing the original bg1 or perhaps it was TotSC and it would play the torment trailer ( the other game played the decent 3 trailer)
my original IWD game played the SoA trailer
I could be mistaken, I installed original IWD exactly once all those many years ago.
I know I'll be misunderstood, but I'll try anyway.
I love this game, but I also know that many people find it boring, really boring. The one thing that makes me say "I love this game" is that everytime i play it, I read every line of every dialogue. When I play BG 1-2 or IWD I never read almost anything anymore. In PST I read everything because I like the dialogue, but also because you need to, and maybe many people find it boring. Many people find reading all that stuff boring because it's supposed to be a game, not a weird book.
From what I'm seeing - I didn't remember that Torment trailer until it was mentioned above - is that there was a Torment promotional trailer included on the Fallout 1 CD that you could look at by doing the whole "explore" shindig - I think I remember seeing other promotional trailers this way as well (Westwood was really big on this sort of thing too as I recall I remember there was a trailer for some sort of RPG I can't remember on Red Alert's CD). No wonder we couldn't remember it since you never needed fallout 1's CD unless you had a smaller HDD
so I have never ever played this game before and yet I've been playing the BG series religiously since '99 with thousands and thousands of play throughs
so I did a little research on what this game is about, and from what I've come up with is that it seems to be a very role play heavy type game, which I thought, okay, that's alright,
but then I hear some game play mechanics and I'm a little puzzled, first I hear your character cannot permanently die and the class choice seems to be a little weak from what I heard, and it seems to be a game that has more chillin' and less killin' sort of style
my question is; does this work as a play style? or is this more of a niche type game, from what I've seen, it looks to be that way, when I play RPG games, I like selection ( races/classes) and Planescape seems to be on the lower end of that
and what is it that really makes Planescape shine above the rest?
It's definitely niche. Even on release, it didn't have anywhere near the success BG games did. If I recall correctly, it was pretty well reviewed but almost nobody bought it and it took a while for it to become a cult classic.
It really depends what draws you to the IE games. BG is the perfect balance between storytelling, customization and tactical combat. IWD is all about the combat and PST is all about the story. If you enjoyed the tactical parts of BG more than the story and if IWD is your jam, chances are you won't be blown away by PST. On the other hand, if IWD felt meh and you were more interested in the next conversation than encounter in BG, PST is just for you
I agree completely with @Allbrother. However there are a couple of other factors you might want to take into account.
I find that, unlike most games, the further I progress into the game the more involved I become in the story. Like a good novel - which I suspect is part of the reason why the game is often compared to a book. And the major reason why no attempt was made to add/change content for the EE version.
I find that, unlike most games, the further I progress into the (original) game the more frustrated I become with the tedious shortcomings of the UI - in particular the too small field of view and the #!@ popup menu. Fortunately, PST:EE will solve this.
Finally, the original had some pretty severe stability issues. Crashes always raise the frustration level. Once again, EE to the rescue.
Comments
No human cleric, halfling thief or elf mage you'd expect...
You get a spirit warrior
You get a floating skull warrior
You get a robot archer
You get a burning levitating man mage
You get a succubus priest
or a Gith'zerai fighter/mage
The only NPC that actually falls into a category is a tiefling fighter/thief. And even she is a lovable iconic and memorable character I can never go without. There's just so much difference and depth across them while still not feeling like totally random inclusions. This seals the deal for me.
And I wish there was another game giving you this much freedom of choice. I feel like PS:T's choices were all in the spirit of thinking outside the box. Never seen similar.
Now let's see if I can explain this without spoiling too much.
You obviously have heard that PST deals with the nature of a man and with situations that can or cannot change this nature. The developers constantly make you think about it by putting you in different situations like death, love, experience, all of which can in theory change the nature of your hero. Using amnesia as a narrative trick, you project yourself to the NO. So in the end you decide first hand which of these situations could potentially change your nature.
Again without spoiling to much, when the time comes to answer this question, you will be surprised to discover yourself which answer is considered correct by the NPC asking.
Finally, there is a secondary philosophical theme in the game about the connection of mortality and morality. This is usually overlooked, maybe because it is more obvious towards the end of the game.
I would gladly discuss these more, though it is better to find out for yourself.
Edit: I should also add that there are several small things that boost storytelling, like for example most if not all joinable party members struggle with their own nature in a way.
It's a game with tons of text, but text is presented with a plethora of narrative tricks. Amnesia, undeath, metaphors and more. It is text with actual meaning.
Allow me to make a comparison with another text heavy game. Pillars of eternity has so many text lines , but is there really a point? These lines just describe the world, the setting. You will often find yourself scrolling down or reading fast. This never happens in PST.
And if it was so good from start, how come a 2nd game didnt come ?
However, the leveling system compensates for this loss. The main character quickly becomes extremely powerful. And I do not mean powerful inside the D&D system. He is a unique being and the rules are changed just for him. Undeath, regeneration, insane stats, spell variety , easy Hide in shadows and being able to cast resurrection even as a fighter are good examples.
And yet, Anna Path is the coolest expression of tiefling, which for me is the coolest race in all D&D franchises. And unlike Haer Dalis, who was using the graphics of an elf or half elf, Anna gets a tail. Like it should be.
For me, any D&D video game in the 90s was in my radar. Planescape was a very cool setting, something like playing in a Jim Henson world, and those Tony DiTerlizzi art!
planescape has more lines of text when talking to people then anyother game untill tides. even motb which can be considered a successor does not have as much text as this game.
What i personally think is great with Torment is it's setting, and how you're presented with options to finish you're journey based on which paths you take, consequences based on your very actions, and how your character stats reflect how you complete quests.
First of all P:T takes Place in Sigil, which is a plane in the multiverse, much like Toril (where Icewind Dale and BG takes place). With the very difference that the people in Sigil often travel to different planes (every portal from a specific plane connects to Sigil, if i'm not mistaken). Sigil also differs in that all kind of creatures resides in Sigil (such as Humans, devils, angels etc), and that deitys aren'r allowed to approach Sigil to get followers. Few have tried, most recent the deity of planes Aoskar, who was slain by Sigils current rules, the lady of Pain. The opposite if also true, Citizens of Sigil aren't allowed to worship deities, those who try are often slained by the lady of pain. However, since people aren't allowed to worship gods, they instead belive in ideas. Strong beliefs can change the world, in an abstract way.
Every quest present itself with defferent outcomes, and can be completed differently based on your stats. There is no alignment, but you're identity is an outcome based on your actions rather than what you choosed in the beginning. So if you really want to play the Paladin archtype, you better behave like a saint, or you're gonna fail misserably.
So Planescape:Torment is a unique experience, that is somewhat niche, but should get played atleast once in your lifetime.
The game was a passion project from Avellone and to a degree Brian Fargo, in the later 90's when a passion project, unlikely to make big money, was proposed, Interplay was on top of the world, so they likely didn't have a lot putting the brakes on so to speak. The game wasn't advertised very extensively, that is true too, everybody knew about Baldur's Gate when it released to say nothing of the huge ad campaign for NWN, they had ads all over every kind of gaming related media at the time. This was not the case for Torment, likely because it was assumed it would never gross that much anyway.
A lot of folks who like RPGs do so for a time-sink and for the thrill of combat - Torment really doesn't have any of the mechanics of time sink games, nor does it feature combat prominently - in fact the original intention was to have a game that was almost completely devoid of combat - a fair helping was added out of fear, essentially, that such a game would be too alien to the audience that was likely to pick it up.
I should also say that the original intention for the infinity engine was very much more IWD than Torment - it was even originally called "infinite battles" iirc. So, the thinking at the time was very combat oriented, and the runaway success of Diablo 2 probably only reinforced that way of thinking.
The other issue is that, Torment, although regularly at the top of "greatest RPGs of all time" lists and so forth, and acclaim from players at the time, it didn't gross the kind of money that a BG1-2 did, and by 2001 Interplay was in dire financial straits. Black Isle was hard at work on NWN and a slew of other projects that were expected to make big money (sequel to Fallout, sequel to BG2) and then they lost their WotC license, so they couldn't make a D&D game anymore, and that was the final nail in the coffin.
So, likely, even had they wanted to make a sequel to Torment immediately, the universe conspired against such a thing, and Black Isle would be gone 4 years after the release of Torment.
I was always curious into what the logic was behind that? with 2 games that had not only widely different engines, but a widely different rule set, maybe when they made the tool tips for bg2 that was done before the idea that nwn was going to be 3rd edition
The early 3rd edition differs in that it didn't support epic levels right from the beginning, also, stats where streamlined (you can have more than 25 in said attribute), which also makes it incompatible with 2ed. The Xp tables is also very different in 2ed, respectively 3ed, in that it takes more xp for certain classes to level up in 2ed, compared to the latter edition. A 2ed level 31 mage (converted to 3ed) would have the equivelent xp of a 48-49 level wizard (based on my own estimation), and with tomes, and other bonuses, be as powerful as some gods. And even if they reset the xp progression of said character, they would still, probably, have to high stats, and thus break the gamebalance.
I found this thread on google: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/50214/you-can-import-your-bg2-character-into-neverwinter-nights
Also, i found this post on another forum: It was planned, but dropped because they couldn't think of any reason to deprive you of not only your items but your experience (since they decided to start you at low level). And with the changeover from 2e to 3e, it would've ended up being about the same as making a new character anyway.
my original IWD game played the SoA trailer
I love this game, but I also know that many people find it boring, really boring.
The one thing that makes me say "I love this game" is that everytime i play it, I read every line of every dialogue. When I play BG 1-2 or IWD I never read almost anything anymore.
In PST I read everything because I like the dialogue, but also because you need to, and maybe many people find it boring.
Many people find reading all that stuff boring because it's supposed to be a game, not a weird book.
Even on release, it didn't have anywhere near the success BG games did. If I recall correctly, it was pretty well reviewed but almost nobody bought it and it took a while for it to become a cult classic.
It really depends what draws you to the IE games. BG is the perfect balance between storytelling, customization and tactical combat. IWD is all about the combat and PST is all about the story.
If you enjoyed the tactical parts of BG more than the story and if IWD is your jam, chances are you won't be blown away by PST. On the other hand, if IWD felt meh and you were more interested in the next conversation than encounter in BG, PST is just for you
I find that, unlike most games, the further I progress into the game the more involved I become in the story. Like a good novel - which I suspect is part of the reason why the game is often compared to a book. And the major reason why no attempt was made to add/change content for the EE version.
I find that, unlike most games, the further I progress into the (original) game the more frustrated I become with the tedious shortcomings of the UI - in particular the too small field of view and the #!@ popup menu. Fortunately, PST:EE will solve this.
Finally, the original had some pretty severe stability issues. Crashes always raise the frustration level. Once again, EE to the rescue.