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Why do peoople like Icewind Dale 2 so much?

135

Comments

  • thespacethespace Member Posts: 1,039
    It's the only game of the pack that allowed me to play an all halfling (and 1 dwarf) party. And I won it at full hit points! I loved having a halfling paladin and bard (the leader).

    tbone1sarevok57KamigoroshiShikao
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 4,392
    You've always been able to use whatever races you want in the Baldur's Gate games. I forget just when I first played with a full party of 6 dwarf fighters, but it was quite a few years ago :).

    Creating a full party yourself used to require a work-around through multi-player, but is now an easy option in the EE. You can also play classes normally forbidden to particular races (such as halfling paladins) through a number of routes, e.g. EEkeeper, near infinity, installing mods, changing look-up files.

    Shikao
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,600
    Well, imho the Tieflings are pretty relevant to the modern zeitgeist, being a brutally oppressed minority that turns to evil to bring about change. Its a pretty tropey storey admittedly, but not bad if you dig up some of the hidden nuggets. They only get humanized toward the end, and there is no real happy ending possibility.

    Still a great fight though!

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,451
    DrakeICN said:

    Fardragon said:

    Pokota said:

    IWD had a story? I thought it was just a covert war between a demon and a devil that you just happened to get caught up in.

    Better than a couple of people I've never met who want to destroy a place I don't care about over a grudge that has nothing to do with me by encouraging aways-evil humanoids to do the same thing they always do.
    You just described the ISIS conflict and the volunteers that went to fight them, and that shit was a blockbuster, it has been all over the news for years! CLEARLY someone does not understand good dramaturgy!
    This is why we have fiction: real life is boring.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,451
    DreadKhan said:

    Well, imho the Tieflings are pretty relevant to the modern zeitgeist, being a brutally oppressed minority that turns to evil to bring about change. Its a pretty tropey storey admittedly, but not bad if you dig up some of the hidden nuggets. They only get humanized toward the end, and there is no real happy ending possibility.

    Still a great fight though!

    IF they had been present from the start

    IF PCs (half orcs and drow have a better experience?) had the option of joining up with the twins

    IF the PCs had been in some way responsible

    THEN it might have been a decent story

  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    ...in your mind.

    However, the taste is like the behind - divided.

    Personally, the story does not deter me. It is the ice caves, then the underdark, then the swarming the druid, then the jungles and I probably forgot something. Several of the locations - of which none can be skipped - are dreadfully boring. It like eating a multilayered cake, and some of the layers are stale and bitter. Really ruins the whole cake, even though some layers are amazing.

  • ArchaosArchaos Member Posts: 1,419
    edited August 2017
    IWD II is the ONLY Infinity Engine game using 3E rules.
    All the other ones used 2E.

    The only other games using 3E rules are NwN1 (3.0E), NwN2 (3.5E) and Temple of Elemental Evil (3.5E).
    I guess Dungeons & Dragons Online too if you want to go there.
    None of the above are an Infinity Engine game.

    Also IWD II needs an engine upgrade more than any other IE game.
    It was rushed and the 3E rules were half-implemented.


    By the way, they aren't Tieflings, they're Half-Fiends.
    Tieflings have some distant fiendish blood, Half-Fiends are literally Half Fiends.
    Their one direct parent is a fiend.

  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    edited August 2017
    I think it is unfair to say that IWDII uses 3E, because all the things that made 3E terrible in NWN - for instance high level insane difference between BAB and AC so that every attack hits combined with (unhasted!!!) 6 attacks per rounds, (meaning warriors easily deal 200-300 dmg per round)... and then there is also knockdown (that uses BAB, which for a warrior raises at the same rate discipline raises for other chars, so if the same level, a warrior basically always have 50% chance to knock you down), so not only will you be dealt 250 dmg in one round, you cant even fight back - are missing. Plainly, 3E works in IWD2, it does not work in NWN1 and 2.

    ThacoBellRaduziel
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,451
    DrakeICN said:

    ...in your mind.


    Hmm, developing your antagonists and making protagonists personally invested in the story is pretty much creative writing lesson 1.

    And I'm pretty sure the original writers would agree, and would have tackled those issues had they been given time for another story pass.

  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Fardragon said:

    And I'm pretty sure the original writers would agree, and would have tackled those issues had they been given time for another story pass.

    Uhh, you do realize that the story for IWDI and IWDII were both "Ok, we're gonna have the player face all kinds of different critters, so that they can let the same party fight different aspects of the realmz lore. Now, just how do we tie goblins together with yuan-ti..?"

    It is not like they thought out a story first and then made the encounters. Now, that does not mean the story will be crap (although the IWD1 story was) but it means the creative aspects of story telling where chained to making these encounters make sense. Like trying to swim wearing a heavy backpack. Not impossible, but surely more difficult and less effective.

    tbone1
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,003
    Fardragon said:

    DrakeICN said:

    ...in your mind.


    Hmm, developing your antagonists and making protagonists personally invested in the story is pretty much creative writing lesson 1.

    And I'm pretty sure the original writers would agree, and would have tackled those issues had they been given time for another story pass.
    The antagonists are developed though. We learn about them as we progress through the game. Heck we know what their early childhood was like by the end. I probably know more about their motivations than Sarevok or Irenicus from BG. As for the protagonists, well, that's sadly the blanket weakness for IWD as a whole.

    DreadKhanKamigoroshiRaduziel
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,451
    ThacoBell said:

    Fardragon said:

    DrakeICN said:

    ...in your mind.


    Hmm, developing your antagonists and making protagonists personally invested in the story is pretty much creative writing lesson 1.

    And I'm pretty sure the original writers would agree, and would have tackled those issues had they been given time for another story pass.
    The antagonists are developed though. We learn about them as we progress through the game. Heck we know what their early childhood was like by the end. I probably know more about their motivations than Sarevok or Irenicus from BG. As for the protagonists, well, that's sadly the blanket weakness for IWD as a whole.
    Again, if that's true, it's way to far in, since I have never go far enough into the game to learn anything about them, and not for lack of trying.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,451
    edited August 2017
    DrakeICN said:

    Fardragon said:

    And I'm pretty sure the original writers would agree, and would have tackled those issues had they been given time for another story pass.

    Uhh, you do realize that the story for IWDI and IWDII were both "Ok, we're gonna have the player face all kinds of different critters, so that they can let the same party fight different aspects of the realmz lore. Now, just how do we tie goblins together with yuan-ti..?"

    It is not like they thought out a story first and then made the encounters. Now, that does not mean the story will be crap (although the IWD1 story was) but it means the creative aspects of story telling where chained to making these encounters make sense. Like trying to swim wearing a heavy backpack. Not impossible, but surely more difficult and less effective.
    Err yes, you always start with a story outline, even if you know you want to include certain elements.

    Unless you are making a Hollywood action movie I guess.

    But the outcome is guarantied crap if you don't - much worse than IWD2.

    And, of course, the story of IWD1 was far superior, since it actually had some twists and interesting characters, rather than just having goblins acting like goblins.


    As the teach journalists, "dog bites man" is not news, "man bites dog" is news.

    sarevok57
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,600
    I can't see how you could prefer BG2 combat over IWD2, especially with no modding, but tastes do vary.

  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Fardragon said:

    And, of course, the story of IWD1 was far superior, since it actually had some twists

    Yes, those amazing amazing twists. Nobody... NOBODY I SAY!!! could have seen that the portal had opened again and that the Tempus head priest would throw himself into it to stop the demon onslaught. It was like a flash from a clear sky! Holy fuck how inventive!

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,032
    DreadKhan said:

    I can't see how you could prefer BG2 combat over IWD2, especially with no modding, but tastes do vary.

    the combat in BG2 is waaaaay more interesting than it is in IWD 2, the thing that IWD 2 has going for it is mobs and mobs of baddies, and that's about it, bg2 was way more magic heavy and I like all the spell protections that you have to dispel to take care of mages and such, and the diversity of baddies in bg2 was much better, fighting a horde of baddies every once in a while is cool, but when you do it ALL the time, yawn

    IWD 2 combat in my opinion is just kind of dull, even the casters in this game cast maybe 3 spells, and then they resort to fist-a-cuffs

    Fardragonhelmo1977
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 8,003
    Fardragon said:

    ThacoBell said:

    Fardragon said:

    DrakeICN said:

    ...in your mind.


    Hmm, developing your antagonists and making protagonists personally invested in the story is pretty much creative writing lesson 1.

    And I'm pretty sure the original writers would agree, and would have tackled those issues had they been given time for another story pass.
    The antagonists are developed though. We learn about them as we progress through the game. Heck we know what their early childhood was like by the end. I probably know more about their motivations than Sarevok or Irenicus from BG. As for the protagonists, well, that's sadly the blanket weakness for IWD as a whole.
    Again, if that's true, it's way to far in, since I have never go far enough into the game to learn anything about them, and not for lack of trying.
    About two thirds in I suppose. Would BG be improved if you got ahold of Sarevoks diary after the nashkel mines? Because it sounds to me thats about how far into the story of IWD2 you reached.

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 499
    edited August 2017
    DrakeICN said:

    Fardragon said:

    And, of course, the story of IWD1 was far superior, since it actually had some twists

    Yes, those amazing amazing twists. Nobody... NOBODY I SAY!!! could have seen that the portal had opened again and that the Tempus head priest would throw himself into it to stop the demon onslaught. It was like a flash from a clear sky! Holy fuck how inventive!
    This is actually a bad case of "The Greatest Story Never Told." If you take the time to speak with the Tempusite priest during the prologue, he's all "No, Jerrod was stupid and died in a senseless manner. Tempus does not reward doing what he did" while at the end he's all "I have learned why Jerrod did what he did, and why I must now do the same." It's character development, but because he's only around before and after it's jarring at worst since we don't get to see his journey, just the results of it. I'm sure he had genuine character development and actual growth as a person, it's just we don't get to see it because we're off stopping Yxunomei and destroying Belhifet's army on the other side of that impassible avalanche.

    GrumThacoBellDev6
  • ShikaoShikao Member Posts: 376
    Due to following this thread now I want to play IWD2 again >.< Good thing I am visiting home soon... Though I have the game on CDs and no optical drive in my laptop <_< Well, I will have to figure something out =P

    Kamigoroshi
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,600
    sarevok57 said:

    DreadKhan said:

    I can't see how you could prefer BG2 combat over IWD2, especially with no modding, but tastes do vary.

    the combat in BG2 is waaaaay more interesting than it is in IWD 2, the thing that IWD 2 has going for it is mobs and mobs of baddies, and that's about it, bg2 was way more magic heavy and I like all the spell protections that you have to dispel to take care of mages and such, and the diversity of baddies in bg2 was much better, fighting a horde of baddies every once in a while is cool, but when you do it ALL the time, yawn

    IWD 2 combat in my opinion is just kind of dull, even the casters in this game cast maybe 3 spells, and then they resort to fist-a-cuffs
    Wizard chess to me was the anti-thesis of combat. IWD and BG2 both had plenty of diversity, in BG2 you get a series of largely interchangeable wizard's duels, while IWD has groups of melee enemies.

    I have not found IWD2 casters at higher levels to stop casting until they'd be out of spells, BG2 had tons of wizards scripted to whack you with a quarterstaff with unused spells.

    I'm willing to say that different players prefering a hundred wizards all casting the same few spells as valid, are you willing to accept there are other people interested in combat that involves, you know, actually fighting monsters? I enjoyed BG2 a great deal, ToB a fair bit, and also enjoyed IWD even before kits existed to break the monotony; they are all valid imho as games.

    ShikaoThacoBell
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 3,493
    I think that combat in BG2 is boring. In certain point you just observe the wizard killing everything.

    In BG and both IWD the entire party needs to be doing something.

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 499
    edited August 2017
    The thing with the Icewind Dale series is that it's always been a dungeon crawler first and a story second. The war between Yxunomei and Belhifet, or the retribution of the Twins in IWD2, was never really the reason for the game. It was more "how do we remake Eye of the Beholder for the Infinity Engine" and for that purpose IWD (and possibly IWD2, I don't know I've never actually gotten out of Targos) works very well. It's just you shouldn't be looking there for a blockbuster novel plot since it's an excuse plot on the order of Jaws, which was ultimately about sharks eating people.

    The polar opposite would be Planescape: Torment; the goal from day one was to tell a story, and the game was built around the story (rather than the story being built around the game, as is the case with IWD and - to an extent - BG), and that difference shows in the writing (It should be noted that I haven't finished PST yet, though it's been clear to me thus far)

    Baldur's Gate is somewhere between the two. This feels like the Wandering Hamster of the Infinity Engine: a game that started out as a tech demo but grew to be something bigger. The story is not central to the experience but without the story it wouldn't really be Baldur's Gate. You can't say the same for Icewind Dale*.

    Ultimately, it comes down to whether you want the Cool New Thing (BG), a Dungeon Crawl (IWD), or something that pulls on your heartstrings (PST). As for IWD2... what other 3rd edition dungeon crawlers were there on PC? (Serious question, not rhetorical)

    *I mean you "could" - thanks to Crenshinibon, which admittedly was obliquely foreshadowed during the Prologue, becoming relevant at the eleventh hour - but really if you were to just change the setting and keep the same basic idea you would get a setting-equivalent excuse plot: if you transplant it to Athas it would just become a rehash of Wake of the Ravager and if you set it in Mystara it would be Infinite Shadows over Mystara. Not that either of those wouldn't be awesome, it's just they've been done already and probably wouldn't work half as well in the Infinity Engine anyway.

    sarevok57ThacoBellShikao
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,032
    Shikao said:

    Due to following this thread now I want to play IWD2 again >.< Good thing I am visiting home soon... Though I have the game on CDs and no optical drive in my laptop <_< Well, I will have to figure something out =P</p>

    I bought the game on GoG for 13 bucks ( Canadian ) and once you own it on GoG you can install to a million PCs provided that you have internet

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,032
    so, I just finished the game, and my reaction to the game: mehs ( we've added an "s" to the meh, so its not all doom and gloom )

    although chapter 5 can burn in hell ( once you hit dragon's eye ) dragon's eye was a complete chore, I had to look at walkthroughs multiple times to figure out what to do, because the game does a bad job of explaining what to do next, more of a : try and figure out what to do next approach, and to that I say: F that noise, but I mustered through, and got to the fabled time loop area, and it wasn't too bad, still a little annoying, and I only had to reload once with the "hurry up and do this or get a game over" mission

    and then chapter 6; it was alright, I give it a solid 7.5 out of 10, maybe even a 7.75, it was kind of enjoyable, but there are so many quests in that area it makes it a little hard to keep track ( IWD is just absolutely terrible at quest tracking)

    so all in all, how did I feel about the game? as I said; mehs

    although because im dumb as soup im now going to attempt the game on HoF mode ( which I really loathe this mode ) but the only reason why im going to attempt it is because I heard you get way better equipment out of it, so im slightly curious to see how it's different, but if it doesn't really change up to chapter 5, then that will be it for me

    I know for a fact that HoF mode is going to be frustrating as balls so I don't feel even slightly obligated to finish it, if it's too much, but again just doing it out of curiosity, so we will see how that goes

    and after that, I will never ever play this game again ( all because of chapter 5 ) if there were a "dragon's eye/time loop garbage be gone" mod, sign me up

    Grond0ThacoBellBelgarathMTH
  • killerrabbitkillerrabbit Member Posts: 401
    IWD 2 was a big warm cup of meh. I can't even remember if I finished it or not. Worst of the infinity engine games and I have no interest in an EE. If the loss of the code pushes Beamdog into making a spirtual or literal successor to BG2 all the better.

    sarevok57
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,600
    HoF gear can be downright bonkersly good, but you really do need it. Even minor enemies are strong as heck. Its hard as heck without a strong party imho. Then again, I really enjoyed my archer which I've read awful things about, so it might not be too bad.

    If you're having a hard time in it, try some summons. A pure cleric can summon some real nasties with Animate Dead. Also handy is Mass Dominate if you can get the DC high enough.

  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,032
    DreadKhan said:

    HoF gear can be downright bonkersly good, but you really do need it. Even minor enemies are strong as heck. Its hard as heck without a strong party imho. Then again, I really enjoyed my archer which I've read awful things about, so it might not be too bad.

    If you're having a hard time in it, try some summons. A pure cleric can summon some real nasties with Animate Dead. Also handy is Mass Dominate if you can get the DC high enough.

    yeah, I see that a lot of those "special" items have been upgraded big, especially the ones that instantly slay baddies, those are no doubt going to be extremely useful,

    but so far, its been okay, although the enemies have some bonkers to hit, if I don't haste my dudes the baddies pretty much don't miss, and the game is set to the highest difficulty, but doing good so far

    one thing that is making this run possible so far is my sorceress' level 8 spell symbol hopelessness, enemies are failing the DC quite nicely ( I think the DC is 25 and it's a will DC to boot ) so that spell has been saving my ass so far

    right now im just about to get to that bridge area, so we will see how that goes

  • karl_maulderkarl_maulder Member Posts: 131
    edited August 2017
    I tried IWD2 a year or two after it's release, but never finished it. The story felt mediocre, and the implentation of the 3ed is disastrous, the game is just shallow, however, others have pointed out these flaws more exact in previous posts.

    I don't know if it was a design choice or a limitation of the engine, but pretending to have lots of choices for the player, when simple mechanics isn't even implemented right, like sneak attacking as an example, or pretty much all Warrior feats being static bonuses instead of interesting abilities like: bullrush, disarm, tripattack, charging, sunderattack, feint, whirlwind attacks etc (and that's not even mentioning all the cool arcane feats), makes the customization very non existent. Someone mentioned the CR implementation, which i think is implemented to give each monster an independent CR rather than having a CR for each encounter, as it should be. NWN screwed this up even worse, if i remember correctly.

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