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Why do peoople like Icewind Dale 2 so much?

245

Comments

  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,514
    Probably a lot of people will hunt me down for what I'm about to say but...

    I really can't understand who says that IWD2 is bad in terms of RP and compare it to a game (BG(2)) that you have the same answers in almost every dialogue despite Alignment, Reputation, INT/WIS/CHA, Race, Class.

    "Oh, but BG is an old game and that was hard to implement back there".

    Nonetheless, Fallout it did in 1997 (aka one year before BG release).

    IMHO it's ok to say that IWD(2) is bad because of RP, but not while BG(2)EE is praised.

    Every plot hole that IWD(2) has is compensated with RP options. And the story, the way I see, is not that bad. It's not Fallout, Baldur's Gate or Dragon Age good, but it's not bad either.

    And talking about plot holes, 90% of the Charname we made are walking plot-holes. Living up in Candlekeep and being carefully watched and raised by Gorion. Wants to be an Avenger? No problem. A Bounty Hunter? Ok. A Beastmaster? Here you go. A Barbarian? There. A Blackguard? Ok. Dwarven Defender? Sure.

    Anyone who cares that much for the plot should only make Monk, Cleric or Wizard Charname. And for the first two ask Beamdog day in and day out for an official Oghma kit. The farther a Charname would go is regular Fighter or regular Thief.

    CvijetaThacoBellMirandel
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Try pressing the bio in the char info screen. Paladins for example are inspired by a paladin traveler visiting candlekeep. Thieves are overly curious cleptomaniacs who cant resist practicing their trade on the scribes. Bards were taught how to sing by a cook. See, there is a reasonable explaination for ANY background. Especially since Candlekeep is basically the realmz equivalent of the library of Alexandria, so whatever catches your fancy there is bound to be a book about it! :p

    semiticgodbatoortbone1
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 6,792
    DrakeICN said:

    Try pressing the bio in the char info screen. Paladins for example are inspired by a paladin traveler visiting candlekeep. Thieves are overly curious cleptomaniacs who cant resist practicing their trade on the scribes. Bards were taught how to sing by a cook. See, there is a reasonable explaination for ANY background. Especially since Candlekeep is basically the realmz equivalent of the library of Alexandria, so whatever catches your fancy there is bound to be a book about it! :p

    But with an intelligence of 4, how are you to read said book?

    ThacoBellsarevok57elminster
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,514
    DrakeICN said:

    Try pressing the bio in the char info screen. Paladins for example are inspired by a paladin traveler visiting candlekeep. Thieves are overly curious cleptomaniacs who cant resist practicing their trade on the scribes. Bards were taught how to sing by a cook. See, there is a reasonable explaination for ANY background. Especially since Candlekeep is basically the realmz equivalent of the library of Alexandria, so whatever catches your fancy there is bound to be a book about it! :p

    The way I see, a weak explanation is as bad as no explanation.

    And this narrow view of what a class is that BG imposes bugs me a lot.

    To make the bio a satisfactory answer all Charname should start at level 0.

    A Bard goes beyond singing. You need to do more than pray and swing a sword to become a Paladin. And so it goes for every class.

    It's like taking my kids to camp and say "now you are all Rangers or Druids".

    And for the library argument, that's why I said Monk/Cleric/Wizard.

    I was in the military and I can assure you that one doesn't learn only from books even the basic of fighting or surviving, for example. There are not things like "Rangerhood for Dummies" or "DIY: Become a Druid" or "Barbarian: a lifestyle you can adapt".

    Anyway, that was just my two cents for the discussion. I really wish that everyone stops the hype for "what the new game will be" and starts to pressure for the next IWDEE update.

    ThacoBellMirandelSkatan
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Eh. In Sweden, we had conscription still, when I was young, but basically they didnt take anyone who refused. But I didnt refuse. Now, I dont remember much, but I do remember going out to the shooting range together with 20 other kids who also never held a gun before. By the end of the day - or should I say half-day - basically everyone could hit a 30 cm target on 400 m distance, using submachine guns from 1940. Yes yes, being a soldier is also sneaking around in forests etc, but really, what makes western armies superior comes down to equipment, intelligence gathering and secure bases from which to plan raids and NOT skill and training, like soldiers like to pretend. I mean, fuck, the average Taliban soldier probably had more training than the average western GI, considering how the former often were veterans from the war with Soviet, while the latter barely made it through base camp before being deployed. The macho attitude is just hormones and propaganda.

    Of course, a sword takes a lot more skill than a gun. Still, I am not buying that argument.

    SkatanMERLANCEBaptorDev6
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,534
    It's true that a ranger born in Candlekeep doesn't make much sense, since Charname never actually lived out in the wilderness, and books alone can only teach you so much. But to be fair, you're not supposed to be an experienced ranger; you're a level 1 character.

    It makes perfect sense that a character with no real life experience would have zero experience points.

    sarevok57Baptor
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 9,470
    @Fardragon BG1 and 2 also leads to the same result, and often with less choice of how to get their over IWD2. The story is the story, you are forced to follow it no matter what game you are playing. IWD2 gives hundreds of different choices based on your stats, alignment, class, and race. Yes its the same result, but you FAR FAR more options in how to get their.

    Also, the twins DO show up throughout the story, not just at the very end. If you are going to critisize the story, it might be a good idea to know it first.

    semiticgodRaduzielGrum
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,564

    I would really like IWD2 if not for the puzzle dungeons. I hate puzzle dungeons with a passion. I very much enjoy the 3rd edition implementation and character/party building in the game, and I like the strategic/tactical battles in the first few scenarios, but unfortunately, I just can't maintain interest once I get to the ice dungeon with all the secret doors and levers that keep you running around like a mouse in a maze trying to get through the thing. Once I find myself saying "The heck with this," and going online trying to find solutions, I know I'm not having fun. It's just too tedious. It's work instead of play.

    I remember the first time I played it in 2002. I got as far as a dungeon where apparently I was supposed to find some way to reset time to go back through the whole dungeon, undoing everything that had happened up to that point, but I couldn't figure out how to do it. I spent about an hour just wandering around in the empty dungeon trying to spot what I must have missed. I then realized I didn't want to do that any more, so I quit without finishing the game.

    I tried it again a couple of years ago, and I quit due to frustration, not with the combat, but with all the secret doors and lever pulling, in the aforementioned ice dungeon.

    So I've never finished IWD2, and I've rarely even tried to start it, since I know now that after the first third or so of the game with the interesting battles it turns into a series of tedious puzzles.

    this right here is pretty much how I feel about IWD 2, and is why I've had such a hard time playing it

    now to be honest, im actually not really a fan of the "3rd edition" rules used in IWD 2, I think the experience would have been better if they just kept the 2nd edition rules going, but 3rd edition was the new thing back then, and they had to promote the idea, although I say "3rd edition" in quotes here because it wasn't quite third, it was some sort of weird pseudo 2nd/3rd edition hybrid

    now I've only played this game maybe a half dozen times and the last time was around 5 years ago....? so my memory might be a bit fuzzy on some things but here are my thoughts on the game:

    character customization is good, RPG games that have oodles of classes/races is always a good thing, and the fact they put some effort into the game recognizing your race/class, that's always a bonus

    and then pretty much the rest I just cant stand:

    - first of all, the difficulty system makes NO SENSE, why do enemies get a random +20 to everything ( or at least on to hit rolls) on the hardest difficulty? I had to play the game on normal which just didn't sit right with me
    - one thing that really REALLY annoys the urine right out of me is this arbitrary "challenge rating" system, that is by far the thing I HATE most about 3rd edition, it is so poorly done and implemented ( especially in IWD 2 ) it makes me sick, I had many instances in IWD 2 where I was going zero experience points, and getting my butt kicked/ using so huge resources to get by and no reward, and when you're killing baddies and getting no reward for it, the game gets boring for your efforts
    - the "puzzles" oh man, the "puzzles" they were incredibly annoying, and they felt so forced in, it became more of a chore than fun, I understand that part of dnd's mantra is to have puzzles in it's dungeons, but the puzzles need to make sense and still have good flow ( the way on how the asylum dungeon in BG2 did it's puzzles would be a great example)
    - so speaking about flow, the pacing of the game, is incredibly schizophrenic, its all over the place, you go from fast pace action, then bog down to annoying puzzles, then super fast pace action where if you aren't fast enough you fail and its game over ( and those sections are just plain stupid, I will get there in a sec) its just all over the place, and it feels choppy, I know you need times to slow the action down, but it just bogs down hard when it does
    - so speaking about the "hurry up and do this or die" parts of the game, I also HATED these, especially the time loop one, my assumption is that they were attempting to put some urgentcy to the situation to make it more exciting, but ironically for me it had the exact opposite effect, it just made those sections incredibly annoying, and from what I remember most about IWD 2, those sections are what made the game a deal breaker for me
    - also, talking about 3rd edition rules, another thing that I hate about it is this garbage where you roll a 1 on your save and you automatically fail regardless crap, that's more indisposable rubbish, because now you're playing a game of Russian roulette where it comes down to; whoever rolls a 1 first loses, cant stand that, and even more, the game heavily relies on that mechanic as well, because the DC's of items and weapons ( from what I recall) are complete trash ( like 14 and the like ) so now you are just waiting for baddies to get that 1 on their roll to fail, always hated that mechanic, and just "reminiscing" about that is annoying just thinking about it
    - now battle wise, I don't really remember too much about the battles in IWD 2, so I don't have much to say, although I don't remember any battles being awesome or anything, but I don't remember any battles being bad, except for one that annoyed me a little; there is a part in the game where you have to fight some sort of ice/crystal golem and only +2 weapons can damage it, and from what i recall its very difficult to obtain +2 weapons at that point in the game, and it was kind of frustrating because they basically threw an invincible baddie right at ya, and if you weren't lucky enough to have the right weaponry at the right time, sucks to be you, now granted from what i recall the experience from that fight is huge ( infact i think its the most you get from any fight in the game period) but it still doesn't sit well with me

    so this is what i can think of at the moment why im not a fan of this game, although reading everyone else's posts makes me almost want to try it out again, just to freshen up on it to see if maybe perhaps i might enjoy it now, but then i remember the forest area, and the time loop area, and the "hurry up or game over areas" and the annoying puzzle areas, and then im like; yeah no thanks, perhaps if there were some mods out there to get rid of some of that junk, then i might give'er a go, but until then, nah

    semiticgodBelgarathMTHSkatan
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited August 2017
    ThacoBell said:

    @Fardragon BG1 and 2 also leads to the same result, and often with less choice of how to get their over IWD2. The story is the story, you are forced to follow it no matter what game you are playing. IWD2 gives hundreds of different choices based on your stats, alignment, class, and race. Yes its the same result, but you FAR FAR more options in how to get their.

    Also, the twins DO show up throughout the story, not just at the very end. If you are going to critisize the story, it might be a good idea to know it first.

    But dialogue options do not equal "story". IWD2 has a lot more meaningless different lines of dialogue to click through before you go and kill the next lot of boring humanoids, yes. But it has no exploration beyond "you have killed everything on this (pretty hand drawn) map, now go onto the next". Take the bandit hide out quest in BG1. You have several different maps to explore to find it. You can ask to join and be taken there. You can charge in and fight everyone. You may or may not fight a dual with Tazok. You can get though by only killing the leaders, or you can get accepted as a recruit then stab everyone in the back. You can ignore the quest entirely and roam the countryside adventuring until you simply stumble over the bandits by accident. And that is just one mid game chapter. That's what "having a story" means.

    Having a story also requires a mystery to unravel. Goblins attacking a town in not a mystery, that is goblins doing what goblins always do. If Tagus was under attack by giant beetles, Uthgart Barbarians, or the Yuan Ti from later on in the game, there would have been a mystery to get me interested. If it had been a peaceful goblin settlement under attack from vicious humans it would have been unusual enough to get me interested.

    If the Twins do turn up before the end battle, it must be a long way in, because even on my most successful playthrough I quit through boredom before I encountered them. The walkthroughs I have read don't mention any appearances before the final battle at any rate.

    Post edited by Fardragon on
    sarevok57Baptor
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,854
    Thats not 'having a story', thats having 'branching out paths that regress to one mandatory solution'. Every wsy leads to you going in Tazok's tent and getting the documents.

    Technically, a story-based game could be 100% railroad like some old rpgs were. Still a story, maybe not replayable many times though.

    Again, goblins attacking might be boring for you, but to many it's thematicly appropriate.

    PokotaThacoBellMirandelSkatan
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    DreadKhan said:

    Thats not 'having a story', thats having 'branching out paths that regress to one mandatory solution'. Every wsy leads to you going in Tazok's tent and getting the documents.

    Technically, a story-based game could be 100% railroad like some old rpgs were. Still a story, maybe not replayable many times though.

    Again, goblins attacking might be boring for you, but to many it's thematicly appropriate.

    And fighting endless waves of "thematcally appropiate" monsters isn't a story, it's Space Invaders.

    Pokotasarevok57
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,854
    Fardragon said:

    DreadKhan said:

    Thats not 'having a story', thats having 'branching out paths that regress to one mandatory solution'. Every wsy leads to you going in Tazok's tent and getting the documents.

    Technically, a story-based game could be 100% railroad like some old rpgs were. Still a story, maybe not replayable many times though.

    Again, goblins attacking might be boring for you, but to many it's thematicly appropriate.

    And fighting endless waves of "thematcally appropiate" monsters isn't a story, it's Space Invaders.
    Wasn't it 3 waves of goblins vs targos?? Hardly endless.

    RaduzielThacoBell
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,564
    so I gave in, I bought IWD 2 on GoG and started playing it, and it was tough trying to finish that first town load of business, every second I was playing Targos I was thinking about wanting to play BG or NWN instead, but I pulled through, so some thoughts so far:

    not as much character customization as I had previously though, in fact its pretty basic, I though there were more race and class options, but there wasn't, but its all good, made a half-orc fighter ( with a level in rogue, oops, XP penalty looooool ) then made 2 dwarf fighters with a level of rogue ( no XP penalty, nice ) have a human with 2 levels of cleric/rogue and 1 level of fighter, made a human with 3 levels of rogue, 2 levels of fighter, and a human sorcerer with 5 levels

    so far, the battles haven't been anything to write home about, except for the orc archers killing my dudes in one hit with criticals, holy crap those guys need to calm the hell down, and im only playing on the default normal difficulty ( which makes my belly churn but this game is hilariously unforgiving )

    just finished saving that bridge from some dudes and such, and the battle wasn't as horrible as I remember, from what I recalled if you didn't save the bridge in time, you got a game over, ( because I was tricked and the bridge got destroyed heh oops a doops and everything went on as normal ) so that wasn't so bad

    so right now my dudes are level 5 with a sweetski 20% xp penalty thanks to my half-orc ( haha my good ) and I only dropped about half a dozen F bombs on the way, so, so far not too bad of an experience, but we will see what tomorrow brings

    ShikaodeltagoGrond0Kamigoroshi
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 2,282
    Ah yes, Icewind Dale 2, the game where you defeat the avatar of a god, only to then get your butt kicked by two cambions.

    semiticgodThacoBellArtona
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 4,564

    Ah yes, Icewind Dale 2, the game where you defeat the avatar of a god, only to then get your butt kicked by two cambions.

    such is life in the realms

    ThacoBellArtona
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,854

    Ah yes, Icewind Dale 2, the game where you defeat the avatar of a god, only to then get your butt kicked by two cambions.

    In the dev's defense, according 3rd ed rules, Xvim probably couldn't even use a real avatar, and if he did, it'd be puny.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    DreadKhan said:

    Fardragon said:

    DreadKhan said:

    Thats not 'having a story', thats having 'branching out paths that regress to one mandatory solution'. Every wsy leads to you going in Tazok's tent and getting the documents.

    Technically, a story-based game could be 100% railroad like some old rpgs were. Still a story, maybe not replayable many times though.

    Again, goblins attacking might be boring for you, but to many it's thematicly appropriate.

    And fighting endless waves of "thematcally appropiate" monsters isn't a story, it's Space Invaders.
    Wasn't it 3 waves of goblins vs targos?? Hardly endless.
    I'm thinking of the whole game, not just Targos. After Targos you go onto the next map, where you kill a bunch of slightly bigger orcs and goblins. Then you go onto the next map and the next and the next. And that's basically as far as I got.

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited August 2017
    ThacoBell said:

    Fardragon said:

    DreadKhan said:

    Thats not 'having a story', thats having 'branching out paths that regress to one mandatory solution'. Every wsy leads to you going in Tazok's tent and getting the documents.

    Technically, a story-based game could be 100% railroad like some old rpgs were. Still a story, maybe not replayable many times though.

    Again, goblins attacking might be boring for you, but to many it's thematicly appropriate.

    And fighting endless waves of "thematcally appropiate" monsters isn't a story, it's Space Invaders.
    No, that's gameplay :wink:
    Sure, Space Invaders has gameplay.

    And to an extent it's me - I don't really like combat all that much. I'm interested in plot and character, so the no-companion format of IWD is a turn off from the start. IWD1 managed to counter that by having an interesting story (especially HoW).

    But I think the real problem with IWD2 is the disappointment of the great character creation giving me all these skills, and then not having much opportunity to use the skills to resolve encounters without combat. High expectations make a game seem worse than perhaps it really is. I know SCL had this issue for some people. I came to it late, and thus my expectations where low, and so I was pleasantly surprised, at least by the story and characters, if not by the gameplay.

    But I would much rather see an EE of SCL (using a faithful version of D&D rules, any edition) than of IWD2.

    ThacoBell
  • DrakeICNDrakeICN Member Posts: 623
    Wait what? You think IWD1 have a *better* story than IWD2?

    *Stares in disbelief*

  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    DrakeICN said:

    Wait what? You think IWD1 have a *better* story than IWD2?

    *Stares in disbelief*

    I think Space Invaders has a better story than IWD2.

    sarevok57
  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 558
    IWD had a story? I thought it was just a covert war between a demon and a devil that you just happened to get caught up in.

    RaduzielShikaosarevok57semiticgod
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    edited August 2017
    Pokota said:

    IWD had a story? I thought it was just a covert war between a demon and a devil that you just happened to get caught up in.

    Better than a couple of people I've never met who want to destroy a place I don't care about over a grudge that has nothing to do with me by encouraging aways-evil humanoids to do the same thing they always do.

    sarevok57Pokota
  • O_BruceO_Bruce Member Posts: 2,761
    The way I see it, the "stories" of both IWDs is pretty disconnected to me and serves only as a justification for dungoen crawling.

    Now, the story is different from "roleplaying possibilities" or "world building" or even "lore", but even so, both IWDs suck in the stories.

    sarevok57semiticgod
  • lroumenlroumen Member Posts: 1,840
    But the story is so clear. Random party goes north and does stuff that has influence on the realms.

    semiticgodsarevok57
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