Why do peoople like Icewind Dale 2 so much?
sarevok57
Member Posts: 6,002
so somewhat recently I've being seeing more and more talk about IWD 2 and the fact that beamdog was trying to make an EE for it but couldn't because they didn't have the assets for it and all that good jazz, and people were bummed out and all that yadda, but is there really enough people out there that like this game to make an EE for it?
in my personal opinion I found IWD 2 to be an incredibly weak link in the isometric black isle RPG game line up, in fact, I didn't like it at all, I've never found IWD 2 to be fun ever, the game felt very unpolished and broken, and I felt more "ugh" than "wow this is great" when playing it, playing IWD 2 felt more like a chore than an enjoyable experience for me at least
so I'm wondering, who out there actually liked this game and why?
in my personal opinion I found IWD 2 to be an incredibly weak link in the isometric black isle RPG game line up, in fact, I didn't like it at all, I've never found IWD 2 to be fun ever, the game felt very unpolished and broken, and I felt more "ugh" than "wow this is great" when playing it, playing IWD 2 felt more like a chore than an enjoyable experience for me at least
so I'm wondering, who out there actually liked this game and why?
5
Comments
1. Beautiful writing, like the intro scene at Targos--in fact, basically anything spoken by Maralie
2. Beautiful graphics, more so than any of the other IE games until Siege of Dragonspear
3. Beautiful music, just like IWD, from Jeremy Soule
4. Chromatic Orb's long-lasting paralysis at level 7
5. Stacking bard songs via the Lingering Song trick to chunk bosses with a crummy shortbow
6. Gobs of enemies with enough spellcasters to keep things interesting
7. Lots of character customization options
8. Exploding rows of enemies with Lance of Disruption
9. Extinguishing herds of enemies with Wail of the Banshee
10. Diverse areas with diverse enemies
11. In general, the satisfaction of manipulating numbers to completely explode the bad guys
12. Going from level 1 to level 17 in a single game just by following the main questline, without having to grind, complete side quests, or enter expansions with separate storylines
For me, the only weak parts of IWD2 (and some of them do get pretty bad) are the places where the developers tried to introduce something besides dungeon crawling and monster smashing. Puzzles and cutscenes tend to be slow and uninteresting. The best parts of IWD2 are always the fights, interspersed with high-quality writing here and there.
I never liked it.
It felt like everything found in the vaults after having done BG series and IWD + How was scrapped out, and put into one linear endless plot for you to trudge along. The few highlights were connected by endless silly riddles and quests in areas that had absolutely nothing to do with the main plot.
It may have been a bit better in a more BG like setting with a main plot and some optional side quests instead of forcing you to do it all. Some side quests took so long and were so remote from the story that one almost forgot what the issue was after all.
The lack of interacting NPCs or interesting dialogues made it worse. New animations, monsters or spells are no compensation for the absolute absence of any content.
Count me among those who are clearly not waiting for an EE remake of it. It's for completists only.
The main plot might have done for a nice little side quest for another game. (Maybe IWD-in-EET?).
If I look at @semiticgod 's list just above, yes that's a nice list of gimmicks, but they have no purpose and no foundation. Somebody developped them, just like they had those area graphics and other elements and then they threw it all together and stirred and hoped it would look like a game. But it's just leftovers glued together.
1. Scripted and balanced fights, keeping it interesting. Its not just a duel at dawn kind of slugging it out like very fight ever in BG and IWD 1, no, they use tactics and stuff.
2. The creative ways character classes can be combined.
3. The world is much more alive. Take for instance the drunkards refusing the help fight the goblins you have to deal with, or the orc chief taking a village hostage, or the obstinate ice druids. IWD 1 on the contrary is VERY flat, almost Diablo 2 or worse yet, Neverwinter Nights flat.
Unfortunately, all of this magic ends somewhere after the ice druids.
Still, much as I like IWD2, I want Beamdog to do Arcanum next. Not gonna happen though, their next game is something about minotaur royalty dressed in kink.
Different dialog options (and rewards) for different races, classes, alignments and attributes. For example, playing a paladin can suck since they always turn down rewards.
Actual tactical battles and scenarios that you needed to plan out.
Multiple ways of doing sections and being rewarded for it. There is one part where if you stealth through it without an enemy seeing you, or you engaging in combat, you get an XP bonus.
Now truthfully, I have never finished the game. The 3.0 rules confused me when I first got it and I sucked at making characters that were actually good.
Also, my first D&D books were 3e, so there's a big nostalgia factor here for me (everything I'd done in 2e was CRPG)
I wonder if the closure of the production studio shortly after IWD2 was released might have been a factor in why IWD2 has the issues it does? It would make sense that the game is as... unfinished as it is if the devs thought it was a death march
Also even though I know some of them are mechanically flawed, I liked the idea of being able to add to feats.
Loved the writing, music, art, customizability of the party, the various skill checks, extra attacks for non-fighters, the saving throw system, 3rd in general, the challenging combat thats very satisfying to replay powergamey to try and steamroll. Imho it has the best dragon fight in IE games, quite varied opponents that require different tactics, really obscenely good items, and HoF was included. The Paladin only fight in HoF felt like a true accomplishment. Heck, many big matches felt that way.
Did not like how frustrating the forest was, its awful on HoF especially. Hated how many times x3 crit bows one-shotted me, and I could see someone bad at 3rd having an awful time, as the game is hard even with a decent party. Didn't like how buggy it could be, and how rushed it felt, but both could be fixed. It lacked an expansion, which could also be helped, but it also lacked side-quests in general to give the illusion of a non-railroad. An optional visit to the Vale near Kuldahar would have been nice!
Imho, if the whole game had been as thoroughly perfected as the first few area felt, it'd be a legend. Imho, it does go down hill a bit after the Fortress, but its still worthy of playing.
I've never really been huge into D&D outside of the Forgotten Realms games (and now Planescape: Torment years later), so I can't say what I think about the different rule sets influencing my opinion. I did however, like the rules in Icewind Dale II as they felt like upgrades to the rules I knew back in the BG games. Being able to play as subraces was a welcome addition, and I remember having a whole bunch of them in my playthrough of IDII. I'd gladly pay Beamdog for a remastered version of the game, so I hope they find the source code.
As such, a modded Baldur's Gate can provide many of the good technical ideas of IWD2 without the need to ever endure the whole meandering mess.
For example, it is possible to change the story in BG2 (siding with the thieves or vampires) than it is in IWD2.
Side quests and adventures tell different stories that the character partake in instead of one giant quest with a narrative. IWD is tight and focused, where BG offers exploration on top of a story.
(1) Targos. It felt like you were saving a town.
(2) Defeating the goblin horde. This was a good story, and it felt right to cut your way to the keep where the leaders of the horde were.
(2a) The tactics of the fortress. I loved storming the castle, by having to very carefully kill the drummers or the destroy the drums. Otherwise you get overrun by reinforcements. It made it feel like you were up against an army, and being smart about your infiltration was the only way of succeeding.
(3) I liked having subraces, and having classes available to every race. In my last playthrough I downloaded the NPC project and had a gold dwarf paladin as the party leader. It was great.
(4) More enemies instead of stronger spell casters. I like the experience of fighting loads of enemies. It feels like each character is a hero when it is 6v20. When it is always 6v1, it creates the opposite experience.
(5) Most of the locations were superb in their feel.
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That said, after you defeat the goblins and orcs, the plot kind of gets...screwy. I get it that the legion of the chimera is for all monstrous races and outcasts, but thematically it felt disjointed. I also wasn't a fan of going off to find the neverwinter reinforcements, only to find that they have been (literally) chilling for weeks while you are off doing what feels like sidequests.
I also was not a fan at all of suddenly finding yourself in Chult of all places. I am doubly sad though that you learn more about Chult in IWD2 than you do from Hexxat...
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If I was smart enough to be a modder, I'd change IWD2 to be purely against an orc invasion, with the twins being half-orcs.
Imagine, if you would...
(1) Targos is attacked by a goblin horde
(2) You fight your way to their fortress to kill their bugbear leader. In the fortress you find a few aurelites, so you have *some* foreshadowing about their alliance
(3) You go off to meet up with the neverwinter reinforcements and do the aurelite temple, which now makes more sense as they are assisting in taking civilization out of the north and returning it to a more primitive state
(4) After the temple, the reinforcements tell you have the horde which attacked Targos is only one among many, and that they had taken this route because the enemy are too numerous to defeat. Only by killing the leaders can the horde be broken.
(5) Said alternate route is via the underdark and the black raven monastery, as per the game. Though now there is a reason for taking such a crazy route.
(6) You reach Kuldahar. Replace the random Yuan Ti with more goblinoids. The portal becomes one opened up to bring in orcish reinforcements.
(7) The shaman who opened that portal for reinforcements is encamped within Dragon's Eye. Go kill him.
(8) Skip the confusing and nonsensical time jump madness.
(9) Find that the half-orc leaders of the hordes are in the Severed Hand...which thematically makes sense as this was the target of the last great orc horde.
(10) Replace Bane with Gruumsh.
The entire story would make more sense (ie: why you have to take such a nonensical route), you'd still have a wide array of enemies, only more thematically appropriate.
I also liked the Duergar city, and the witch. I mean, the forest I did not like so much, but the witch was well-written. I actually wanted to side with her - yes yes, she eats children, but without her the local savages WILL sack that town. She was right!
The worst part in my mind was returning to Kuldahar. All of a sudden, the game turns into Diablo with mindless mobs rushing the druid. *Yawn* I think they ran out of money, or ideas, or both.
A good antagonist makes their presence felt throughout the story. Saravok, Irenicus, Seraphiroth are active right from the beginning of the story. So are the antagonists in SoD, SCL and many others. The antagonists in IWD1 also appear quite early in the game, if in disguise.
This is just another symptom of the IWD2 dilemma - after they had all these diverse elements for a game, they finally found that they need a minimum plot to glue it together. And then they found that some antagonist may do the plot some good. So the twins were invented out of a hat, at least that's how it all feels.
I remember the first time I played it in 2002. I got as far as a dungeon where apparently I was supposed to find some way to reset time to go back through the whole dungeon, undoing everything that had happened up to that point, but I couldn't figure out how to do it. I spent about an hour just wandering around in the empty dungeon trying to spot what I must have missed. I then realized I didn't want to do that any more, so I quit without finishing the game.
I tried it again a couple of years ago, and I quit due to frustration, not with the combat, but with all the secret doors and lever pulling, in the aforementioned ice dungeon.
So I've never finished IWD2, and I've rarely even tried to start it, since I know now that after the first third or so of the game with the interesting battles it turns into a series of tedious puzzles.