As much as I very much look forward to this product (NWN1 & 2 are my utmost favourite games), I feel the graphics have got to be improved significantly which can be done without causing incompatibility issues, i.e through improving textures, models. This is one major issue I've had with other Beamdog EE projects, the fact that the graphical enhancements are extremely miniscule compared the state of the original releases. This is after all what the very least modders have already done for NWN for ages now; a game developer company being paid to enhance this game should at the very least be able to do so. Looking past +10 year old 3D graphics is more difficult than looking past the pixelated art style of the BG/IWD games.
NWN2 has a much longer tail in the graphics department. You can render skyrim content in NWN2 with little to no performance loss on current day hardware.
Also many of the features they talked about adding in NWN1.. already exist in NWN2.
Area Instancing, Customizable and Open Source UI, Open Source Spells and Feats that you can modify with the NWN Scripting language. Ect.
I had forgotten how much of NWN1 is a hard coded / closed source and they didn't even sound enthusiastic about opening it up.
The problem is that many of the NWN1 developers look at NWN2 with disdain and disgust.
@deserk - nope. NWN started as DX8 level graphics. Of course there's no direct comparison due to OpenGL having both less and more features at the same time. That said NWN2 was DX9 title released 11 years ago... now look at both and you'll immediately see extreme gap between those two. For a cRPG NWN2 didn't really lose all that much during those 11 years and with graphics mods it can look quite ok. On the other hand NWN1 textures aren't detailed at all, models looks blocky, animations aren't quite as good. Sure... total overhaul isn't something you can expect, but better lights and shades, more detailed character and weapon models, maybe buffed spell effects... that's something most ppl would expect from Enhanced Edition of old 3D game, right? @Sherincall - maybe they did pimp it out but I've seen no evidence of that during stream so all I can talk about with being 100% sure is what I saw there. And I must say I'm not really impressed by that. I own diamond edition already and EE atm does not have anything which I might find tempting. I'll keep observing it.
As much as I very much look forward to this product (NWN1 & 2 are my utmost favourite games), I feel the graphics have got to be improved significantly which can be done without causing incompatibility issues, i.e through improving textures, models. This is one major issue I've had with other Beamdog EE projects, the fact that the graphical enhancements are extremely miniscule compared the state of the original releases. This is after all what the very least modders have already done for NWN for ages now; a game developer company being paid to enhance this game should at the very least be able to do so. Looking past +10 year old 3D graphics is more difficult than looking past the pixelated art style of the BG/IWD games.
Trent said that there are so many resources to update that the cost would be equivalent to the GDP of a small country. It's possible but it's too expensive to be practical.
@tbone - except IE games uses 3D for characters and spells; buildings, hills etc. are 2D iirc. So even if they improve characters alone it has small impact on overall graphics quality since the rest of environment would still be plain, low res 2D. For a full 3D engine like Aurora improving render engine has bigger impact since all objects casts shadows, some objects are light sources etc. etc. It makes perfect sense to improve NWN lighting and shading even if models and textures stays the same. However I must emphasize I'd really welcome more detailed models. And no... it isn't all that hard since most monster and character models are based on generic models. Improve generic one and all based on it will improve as well. And as for GDP ... well there are some "countries" few square km wide and with those in mind such statement might be true. Now then how much did cost Witcher 1 based on really enhanced Aurora engine itself? ~6M USD. For a whole new game with no resources to start with. That's why I find Trent's statement amusing but unfair and hardly true.
As much as I very much look forward to this product (NWN1 & 2 are my utmost favourite games), I feel the graphics have got to be improved significantly which can be done without causing incompatibility issues, i.e through improving textures, models. This is one major issue I've had with other Beamdog EE projects, the fact that the graphical enhancements are extremely miniscule compared the state of the original releases. This is after all what the very least modders have already done for NWN for ages now; a game developer company being paid to enhance this game should at the very least be able to do so. Looking past +10 year old 3D graphics is more difficult than looking past the pixelated art style of the BG/IWD games.
graphics cant be overhauled or the whole backward compatibility would go out the window with existing content. They mentioned this in the stream.
Hello all, I am an avid NWN / NWN2 modder who has a strong passion for those games and the power they give players to construct sprawling worlds and universes.
I was absolutely ecstatic to hear that this game might be given an overhaul from Beamdog. As I understand Trent is one of the original developers and they have full access to the source code.
I was sorely disappointed. Reading just off the original article:
Improved Display: Your portrait, combat bar, inventory, and other UI elements adjust in size based on your chosen resolution including 1080p and 4k.
Advanced Graphics Options: Pixel shaders and post-processing effects make for crisper, cleaner visuals. Enable contrast, vibrance, and depth of field options as preferred.
Community Endorsed: Original developers have teamed with key members of the Neverwinter Nights community to curate important fan-requested improvements to support players, storytellers, and modders.
Backwards Compatibility: Works with save games, modules, and mods from the original Neverwinter Nights. A galaxy of community created content awaits.
Going point by point.
Improved Display / Advanced Graphics Options are well and good but I was really hoping for something more.. exciting. The video really just looked like vanilla NWN1.
Community Endorsed was confusing for me. Are you working with NeverwinterVault in some capacity? What does this mean? Do you mean the developers behind NWNX / Client Extender?
Backward Compatibility is very important, this is good to hear.
All that said, I feel this was a huge missed opportunity. NWN has such a storied history with you guys, having many Bioware alumni in your company. This could of been your chance to break open the code, add more hooks into NW-Script, Work on internal premium modules or even bring back the premium module platform that was largely abandoned by Atari. Really make the game shine graphically, extend out the poly limits and phenotypes, Add normal mapping to the game ect..
You could even offer expansion packs with high quality assets / models, or server hosting services that were streamlined for running the server client in some way.. (Maybe this would work better for NWN2)
I would be overjoyed if this game sold like hot cakes and injected more players into our community. I am really worried this won't be enough just talking to other modders.
community endorsed is that one of the main devs on the Arelith PW team is now working for Beamdog on this project. This means PW support and dynamics are taken very seriously, and if you also recall in the stream, though asked a few times, the OC will not be touched. Im sure others were also brought into the closed beta as well, but this one I know of for certain. They do listen to the community.
As much as I very much look forward to this product (NWN1 & 2 are my utmost favourite games), I feel the graphics have got to be improved significantly which can be done without causing incompatibility issues, i.e through improving textures, models. This is one major issue I've had with other Beamdog EE projects, the fact that the graphical enhancements are extremely miniscule compared the state of the original releases. This is after all what the very least modders have already done for NWN for ages now; a game developer company being paid to enhance this game should at the very least be able to do so. Looking past +10 year old 3D graphics is more difficult than looking past the pixelated art style of the BG/IWD games.
NWN2 has a much longer tail in the graphics department. You can render skyrim content in NWN2 with little to no performance loss on current day hardware.
Also many of the features they talked about adding in NWN1.. already exist in NWN2.
Area Instancing, Customizable and Open Source UI, Open Source Spells and Feats that you can modify with the NWN Scripting language. Ect.
I had forgotten how much of NWN1 is a hard coded / closed source and they didn't even sound enthusiastic about opening it up.
The problem is that many of the NWN1 developers look at NWN2 with disdain and disgust.
NWN2 was shipped way too early with too many issues that never had a chance of being corrected. That in itself led to the downfall, not even mentioning the Toolset wasnt user friendly unless you had a computer degree.
As much as I very much look forward to this product (NWN1 & 2 are my utmost favourite games), I feel the graphics have got to be improved significantly which can be done without causing incompatibility issues, i.e through improving textures, models. This is one major issue I've had with other Beamdog EE projects, the fact that the graphical enhancements are extremely miniscule compared the state of the original releases. This is after all what the very least modders have already done for NWN for ages now; a game developer company being paid to enhance this game should at the very least be able to do so. Looking past +10 year old 3D graphics is more difficult than looking past the pixelated art style of the BG/IWD games.
NWN2 has a much longer tail in the graphics department. You can render skyrim content in NWN2 with little to no performance loss on current day hardware.
Also many of the features they talked about adding in NWN1.. already exist in NWN2.
Area Instancing, Customizable and Open Source UI, Open Source Spells and Feats that you can modify with the NWN Scripting language. Ect.
I had forgotten how much of NWN1 is a hard coded / closed source and they didn't even sound enthusiastic about opening it up.
The problem is that many of the NWN1 developers look at NWN2 with disdain and disgust.
NWN2 was shipped way too early with too many issues that never had a chance of being corrected. That in itself led to the downfall, not even mentioning the Toolset wasnt user friendly unless you had a computer degree.
I wouldn’t say NWN2 had a particular downfall. It was a great game that many people played for years. I’m still looking forwards to the BG2 module which I’ll happily play in that engine.
I also don’t think you need a degree to build content in NWN2. Yes it’s more difficult that NWN, but also much more powerful. If you wanted to make an NWN style area in NWN2 which is basically flat with pre-fab textures, it’s not much different.
community endorsed is that one of the main devs on the Arelith PW team is now working for Beamdog on this project. This means PW support and dynamics are taken very seriously.
At the same time, Arelith is famous for not using any custom content, so although it's great to have someone who understands multiplayer on board, I'm not certain it's very assuring for the multitude of PW's who have spent years making and implementing their own systems and content.
Witcher 1 budget was probably ~6mln $ and they were starting from scratch. Here most of the content is already there + improving generic models will automatically improve all creatures based on those. Such changes won't break any compatibility!
community endorsed is that one of the main devs on the Arelith PW team is now working for Beamdog on this project. This means PW support and dynamics are taken very seriously, and if you also recall in the stream, though asked a few times, the OC will not be touched. Im sure others were also brought into the closed beta as well, but this one I know of for certain. They do listen to the community.
This thread was made before any of that information was released. In hindsight I have a better understanding what they meant. I didn't know that website broke embargo or that more details were yet to be released.
That said - the thrust of my argument still stands.
Most players outside our small bubble don't understand the feature / cost benefit of this game. The entire stream was just a couple of guys talking about "big ideas" and playing Vanilla NWN.
If you read any gaming forums outside this one, players have no idea what they are getting for 19 dollars.
That's unfortunate, I want those players excited and playing the game and building modules.
*raises hand and nods @Trinital* I played NWN very regularly for most of a decade after its release. I played the hell out of the original campaigns, but I'd bet that the vast majority of that time was spent in user made content. With that said, most of what I've seen here might as well be Greek to me. I play almost entirely single player and I really have no clue what I'm getting for preordering the EE version that I'm not already getting from my GOG version. From what I've read so far, it's not much. Still, I think that twenty bucks is nothing to support further polishing this gem. Even though I might not be seeing a lot right now, it's the *potential* that I'm backing. I can play vanilla NWN all day long with my GOG version already. I'm really hoping to see benefits for single players from the EE versions.
The graphics can be enhanced without significantly affecting compatibility, it's just a matter of the -extent- of how/where they alter it. I said nothing of an overhaul, but they could at the very least work on upgrading textures and -potentially- polish old character/creature models, especially as nowadays most of us today are playing in far greater resolutions than back in the day when NWN1 was first released; thus the aged graphics are a pretty noticeable eyesore. I worry that to do nothing on this front will greatly limit the sales of the game, because if most NWN players can't spot the differences between the original NWN1 and this edition (based on what we saw in the Twitch stream), why should they be expected to buy it? Also as far as we know now there isn't even going to be a new campaign or any additions to the old campaigns, so apart from a restored master server for multiplayer, what is this edition going to offer NWN players that they don't already have?
Also in the stream one of the devs already said that some mods might need to be updated by modders in order to work with NWNEE, so there are already going to be -some- incompatibility issues. If this game is a success, I expect modders regardless will already rally to update old NWN1 mods to this NWNEE, just as has happened with old BG mods for the BGEE games.
Also, one other issue... why are the Premium Modules Wyvern Crown, Infinite Dungeons and Pirates of the Sword Coast going to be separate DLC? That seems a bit sleazy to pull them out separately, especially as there won't be significant changes to them compared to rest.
So I don't speak programmer... Is it realistic to hope for a major graphical overhaul for future expansions that might happen? Would that break backwards compatibility or something?
The existing PW's and mods are great and all but what the game needs to get a new life is new builders and new players and for that it needs to look ahead, not back. Future mods should come with next gen visuals. CD Project Red did it in 2007 so we know it's certainly possible. But is something like that in the scope of an enhanced edition?
The graphics can be enhanced without significantly affecting compatibility, it's just a matter of the -extent- of how/where they alter it. I said nothing of an overhaul, but they could at the very least work on upgrading textures and -potentially- polish old character/creature models, especially as nowadays most of us today are playing in far greater resolutions than back in the day when NWN1 was first released; thus the aged graphics are a pretty noticeable eyesore. I worry that to do nothing on this front will greatly limit the sales of the game, because if most NWN players can't spot the differences between the original NWN1 and this edition (based on what we saw in the Twitch stream), why should they be expected to buy it? Also as far as we know now there isn't even going to be a new campaign or any additions to the old campaigns, so apart from a restored master server for multiplayer, what is this edition going to offer NWN players that they don't already have?
Also in the stream one of the devs already said that some mods might need to be updated by modders in order to work with NWNEE, so there are already going to be -some- incompatibility issues. If this game is a success, I expect modders regardless will already rally to update old NWN1 mods to this NWNEE, just as has happened with old BG mods for the BGEE games.
Also, one other issue... why are the Premium Modules Wyvern Crown, Infinite Dungeons and Pirates of the Sword Coast going to be separate DLC? That seems a bit sleazy to pull them out separately, especially as there won't be significant changes to them compared to rest.
I don’t mind the idea of premium modules being DLC. It takes resources to upgrade these games and the company needs a way to be compensated for spending them.
I complete agree with the idea of a model and texture overhaul. This isn’t without precedent either, they just did that with Skyrim earlier this year.
Another reason I think the graphics are important- and I’ve seen long term NWN players comment that they aren’t- is that NWN, much more than the BG series, is centered around the community. Updated graphics would probably go a long ways towards not only brining older players back, but enticing newer ones to give it a try. The idea of brining more people into the community is not trivial when it is the community that drives this game.
@TrentOster said a model and/or texture overhaul would be far too expensive, unfortunately. People don't seem to realize just how many resources are in NWN.
So I don't speak programmer... Is it realistic to hope for a major graphical overhaul for future expansions that might happen? Would that break backwards compatibility or something?
They said there are a lot more possibilities for future content (for mods, and maybe if they do more official content).
It's still going to be within the same framework of NWN (tile-based layout, existing lighting, etc.). But you could see models with higher poly counts and better textures (they just can't go back and do that for all existing content due to the sheer size of the game), as well as more shader and post-process filtering.
This is an example of what NWN looks like in 2017 - now, be kind, everything you see was made for free by pure hobbyists, but I think it looks worlds better than the original 2002 content. And with added graphics support, it can only improve...
This is an example of what NWN looks like in 2017 - now, be kind, everything you see was made for free by pure hobbyists, but I think it looks worlds better than the original 2002 content. And with added graphics support, it can only improve...
what is wrong with you lot nwn was never about the graphics is was about having fun.
i remember when nwn2 was released and the graphics just made it feel like a completely different game.
im so glad its vanilla.
This is only your opinion. If we want this community to thrive we need to draw water from all wells. There's no reason to be elitest or take the "I know what this game is really about" road.
We want as many people as possible in our community. Even "Graphics Loves"
This is a shot from my module, built with 1.69 Diamond Edition. It's just an example of what the game can already look like with a bit of custom content. The tileset was made by Zwerkules, and I did the building models/texturing/area design. I understand that a large number of people are chiefly concerned with the OC, but for module builders, the added functionality we hope to see will let modders push things even further. I think my point was that if you just limit yourself to the OC, you might miss out on the massive amount of free user-made content that already exists, and all the additional stuff that's sure to come.
@Shandaxx This is not from the original game. This is not from the head start (there is no such content there). This is custom made by people from the community. People create custom content and add it to their module to enhance textures, models, creatures, etc. So - the upgrade is already available, and it's free. But an Enhanced Edition will open up even better opportunities for the community to create even better looking content.
This is an example of what NWN looks like in 2017 - now, be kind, everything you see was made for free by pure hobbyists, but I think it looks worlds better than the original 2002 content. And with added graphics support, it can only improve...
Where and how was this screenshot taken? So this isn't from the original game? Is it from the head start? Is it a mod? Could we see a "before" and "after" comparison with this screenshot?
Looks like a fan-made module or it was taken from a persistent world. It is using a custom tileset and that means it is fan-made as well. You would download the tileset if you wanted to use it and place the associated .hak files in a /hak directory, load up the toolset and it then you could build with it. Players would need whatever .hak file the fan-made module/persistent world uses to enjoy it in-game.
Comments
Also many of the features they talked about adding in NWN1.. already exist in NWN2.
Area Instancing, Customizable and Open Source UI, Open Source Spells and Feats that you can modify with the NWN Scripting language. Ect.
I had forgotten how much of NWN1 is a hard coded / closed source and they didn't even sound enthusiastic about opening it up.
The problem is that many of the NWN1 developers look at NWN2 with disdain and disgust.
@Sherincall - maybe they did pimp it out but I've seen no evidence of that during stream so all I can talk about with being 100% sure is what I saw there. And I must say I'm not really impressed by that. I own diamond edition already and EE atm does not have anything which I might find tempting. I'll keep observing it.
And as for GDP ... well there are some "countries" few square km wide and with those in mind such statement might be true. Now then how much did cost Witcher 1 based on really enhanced Aurora engine itself? ~6M USD. For a whole new game with no resources to start with. That's why I find Trent's statement amusing but unfair and hardly true.
I also don’t think you need a degree to build content in NWN2. Yes it’s more difficult that NWN, but also much more powerful. If you wanted to make an NWN style area in NWN2 which is basically flat with pre-fab textures, it’s not much different.
In hindsight I have a better understanding what they meant. I didn't know that website broke embargo or that more details were yet to be released.
That said - the thrust of my argument still stands.
Most players outside our small bubble don't understand the feature / cost benefit of this game. The entire stream was just a couple of guys talking about "big ideas" and playing Vanilla NWN.
If you read any gaming forums outside this one, players have no idea what they are getting for 19 dollars.
That's unfortunate, I want those players excited and playing the game and building modules.
Also in the stream one of the devs already said that some mods might need to be updated by modders in order to work with NWNEE, so there are already going to be -some- incompatibility issues. If this game is a success, I expect modders regardless will already rally to update old NWN1 mods to this NWNEE, just as has happened with old BG mods for the BGEE games.
Also, one other issue... why are the Premium Modules Wyvern Crown, Infinite Dungeons and Pirates of the Sword Coast going to be separate DLC? That seems a bit sleazy to pull them out separately, especially as there won't be significant changes to them compared to rest.
The existing PW's and mods are great and all but what the game needs to get a new life is new builders and new players and for that it needs to look ahead, not back. Future mods should come with next gen visuals. CD Project Red did it in 2007 so we know it's certainly possible. But is something like that in the scope of an enhanced edition?
This is what Aurora Engine looked like in 2007:
I complete agree with the idea of a model and texture overhaul. This isn’t without precedent either, they just did that with Skyrim earlier this year.
Another reason I think the graphics are important- and I’ve seen long term NWN players comment that they aren’t- is that NWN, much more than the BG series, is centered around the community. Updated graphics would probably go a long ways towards not only brining older players back, but enticing newer ones to give it a try. The idea of brining more people into the community is not trivial when it is the community that drives this game.
It's still going to be within the same framework of NWN (tile-based layout, existing lighting, etc.). But you could see models with higher poly counts and better textures (they just can't go back and do that for all existing content due to the sheer size of the game), as well as more shader and post-process filtering.
i remember when nwn2 was released and the graphics just made it feel like a completely different game.
im so glad its vanilla.
This is only your opinion. If we want this community to thrive we need to draw water from all wells. There's no reason to be elitest or take the "I know what this game is really about" road.
We want as many people as possible in our community. Even "Graphics Loves"
Neverwinter 1 Tilesets (Ranked by Release Date)
https://neverwintervault.org/catalog/nwn1?field_category_tid=803&field_category_tid_1=All&field_tags_tid=&field_first_release_value=All