Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!

Categories

New Premium Module: Tyrants of the Moonsea! Read More
Attention, new and old users! Please read the new rules of conduct for the forums, and we hope you enjoy your stay!

Agenda for Tolerance in Neverwinter Nights

[Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
edited November 2017 in General Discussions NWN:EE
The user and all related content has been deleted.

typo_tillyThacoBellIsewein

Comments

  • MalclaveMalclave Member Posts: 47
    The game has been going downhill ever since it started encouraging miscegenation with the introduction of half-orcs and half-elves. And then later with the idea that non-humans could rise as high as humans in any class.

    NWN should go back to the Basics. Or maybe Expert.

  • BrastiasBrastias Member Posts: 10
    Honestly this is nothing to get spun up about.

    I saw this too and it didn't even register. I kinda went "wha....? ok you don't have a quest" and moved on.

  • PokotaPokota Member Posts: 571
    edited November 2017
    Shandaxx said:

    Neverwinter Nights explicitly tells you that it is intolerant if you damn things just because they personally offend you. And that that is not a matter of morality.
    [...]
    I am shocked by this discovery and I will take the next few days to consider if I can go on playing the game. The game forces its view on tolerance down my throat. I do not have the possibility to tell that patron that he is wrong.
    [...]
    Imagine that patron had been in Siege of Dragonspear. Beamdog would have been ripped apart for it. Don't just overlook this incident because it may be in one of your favorite games!

    So you're damning the game just because this conversation personally offended you?

    Because it seems to me like you don't tolerate this kind of writing.

    Bluebomber4evrProont
  • TheBarbarianTheBarbarian Member Posts: 58
    I'm confused. What's to dislike about tolerance? Tolerance is a good thing. Treating people who hold differing opinions and preferences from one's own as worthy of respect and kindness is pretty much the foundation of peace. A peace, I may add, which allows people like us to spend our time playing and discussing videogames instead of fighting for survival in never-ending civil war, under which none stand to suffer more than the people and things we love and want to protect.

    Assuming that this is not simply an attempt to get a rise out of people... objecting to tolerance and diversity while simultaneously advocating for being allowed to have and defend one's own differing viewpoint seems a little odd. Aren't you pretty clearly upset about intolerance and forcible uniformity, here? That's exactly what the (non-extremist) "tolerance agenda" is opposing, too. Seems like you'd have more reason to agree than to disagree with what that dwarf is saying.

    Generally speaking, creative people tend to have more reason to have a constructive mindset than most, and, being builders, don't tend to look very favorably on other people destroying things. It's not really surprising to find that artists favor freedom of self-expression, and tolerance of it, and it's extremely difficult to portray viewpoints you don't understand yourself. It's pretty inevitable that that'll shine through in dialogue writing. Still would, even if they tried to be as politically correct as possible - and I use that term because I assume you'll understand the predicament it puts people in when they have to watch every word and phrase they dare express out of fear of offending righteous hordes of doom.

    If there's any damn thing we need in this world, it's respect and kindness. Even for people whom we consider undeserving of it. That's a lesson of creation, too - that the things we put out into the world are what's going to be in the world, so if you want something to exist, you may have no choice but to make it exist yourself. Even if nobody else shares your opinion, or cares about it at all. That's what it means to believe in something.

    So if the dialogue in that module bugs you, open up the toolset and start working on your own module. Give your module's protagonist the opportunity to argue the points you want to make. It'll give other people a chance to see things from your perspective. And yes, no matter what you say or do, somebody is going to disagree with it, simply because somebody on this world is going to have the polar opposite opinion and feel very strongly about it. Somebody may be upset. Somebody may come flame you, argue for the desertion or banning of your work, threaten you and the people you love. And it's going to be wrong of them to do that. At least, according to the "tolerance agenda" and it's proponents (please note that people who are enacting intolerance and ridicule of others are quite clearly not advocates of tolerance and respect, even if they(we?) label themselves as such).

    [Deleted User]Bluebomber4evrProontZwerkules
  • BrastiasBrastias Member Posts: 10
    Guys...the dialog in question is a response to "why does Lady Aeribeth tolerate mercenaries in Neverwinter. I am pretty sure this is getting blown out or proportion

    DJKajuruAndarianBaratan
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2017
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • BrastiasBrastias Member Posts: 10
    oh ok my bad I was thinking of the dwarf where the henchman are. But either way...is it really worth this much angst? This is so small. There were in other games much worse immersion breaking preachy crap but this is hardly at that level.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • TheBarbarianTheBarbarian Member Posts: 58
    Shandaxx said:

    But why can I not react adequately in the game?

    For srslies, open up the toolset and start a module. You'll see why very quickly. Dialogue writing is hard, and there are infinite different viewpoints on pretty much anything. Adding dialogue options for every single one in every single conversation is ridiculously much work. And we can always only think of viewpoints that we know of, and portray them in a way that we personally understand. The things that would occur to somebody who isn't you... won't occur to you.

    Try writing a dialogue for that NPC, where both an "anti-tolerance" and a "pro-tolerance" player could successfully argue their point and walk away happy and feeling that they've had the chance to say everything they want to say. If you manage that, add dialogue paths for nihilists, depressed people, extreme optimists, mutes, misandrists, misogynists, and a player who's roleplaying the Monty Python bunny... and write every dialogue path so that it won't offend anybody in any group. It's impossible. Somebody in the pro-tolerance group would be upset if the anti-tolerance group had a successful argumentation path, somebody in the anti-tolerance group would be upset if the pro-tolerance group had a successful argumentation path. Being a game dev is extremely frustrating in this way.

    This franchise isn't strictly about the OCs, though. Never has been, and that's exactly what makes NWN great. NWN is about players making their own modules. Come build stuff. It's way more fun than being frustrated about other people not building their stuff the way you want it to be built, or pitchforkmobbing on internet forums.

    Besides, would you say that you're currently forcing your (negative) ideas about tolerance upon the readers of this thread, by expressing them, and isn't "spreading anti-LGBT and anti-Social-Justice "propaganda"" kinda the core of what you're arguing for here? :-) Nobody has to agree with and incorporate everything they read into their own opinions, y'know. Other people don't need to let your opinions impact theirs, just in the same way you don't need to let other peoples' opinions impact yours. And if a videogame, book, or movie, doesn't go the way you want it to, there's always fanfiction.

    Let me know if you need a pro-tolerance playtester for your module if you do decide to build one. I can help flesh out the pro-tolerance argumentation path; we could make something educational and deep out of it, do both sides justice, foster understanding between opposing factions, or something. <3

    [Deleted User]PokotaProontZwerkules
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,737
    @Shandaxx
    NWN was from the before-times, though I don't appreciate your paper-thin veneer of sarcasm either.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,035
    Shandaxx said:

    Flashburn said:

    @Shandaxx
    NWN was from the before-times, though I don't appreciate your paper-thin veneer of sarcasm either.

    Oh one other point @Flashburn

    If my sarcasm was really so paper-thin as you say, then I doubt that so many people would have fallen for it.
    It is in fact paper-thin, but only to people who know you on the forums. Sarcasm is extremely difficult to detect online, when there's no tone of voice or body language.

    It's one of the reasons I generally discourage sarcasm on the forums without including the /s tag at the bottom of a post, indicating sarcasm.

    ArdanisPokota
  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,737
    Shandaxx said:

    Then I kindly ask you to tell me the exact year, from which on, it's social propaganda and before which it is not social propaganda.

    2007: The beginning of the end.
    Shandaxx said:

    If my sarcasm was really so paper-thin as you say, then I doubt that so many people would have fallen for it.

    They're new here, they don't know any better.

    [Deleted User]
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.

  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,190
    Is this a joke?
    I remember that dialogue, it is just a line that answers an ignorant comment (there are books in the game which show how historical is the trade of blades in Neverwinter, so it seems pretty clear that the people respect its mercenaries and looking down at them is ignorance).
    Nwn oc has simple dialogue options and it is teen content, mostly harmless, so if you're going to suggest a module that expands dialogue options for all kinds of alignments, classes and beliefs, please do so. Otherwise I can't help but consider that this post is pure bait.

    IllustairZwerkules
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2017
    The user and all related content has been deleted.

    semiticgodTheBarbarianPokota
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 14,035
    @Shandaxx: I appreciate it.

    Probably best to close this thread on a positive note.

    [Deleted User]taclane
This discussion has been closed.