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[Spoiler] About Jaheira

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Comments

  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,996
    Might I offer a little perspective? I am dealing with some serious health issues (with all the mental stress and anxiety that goes with it) and I approach them in a very data-driven, emotionless way. That's what has worked for me. I have talked with and worked with a lot of people facing similar issues. Some are more rational than others, some have a rationality that varies widely by situation, and some react as unpredictably as an inebriated honey badger. Some use their own religious views as a guide. It seems to me that Jaheira might be struggling with her shock of Khalid having been killed and tortured by lashing out (not an unknown phenomenon) and by falling back on her faith (in this case, a nature religion) for what to do. It's not a choice I would have made, it may seem irrational or heartless, but in the context of shock, emotion, and faith, it is a reaction and decision that one can at least see as plausible. I don't agree with it, but I can see why she makes that decision.

    Just my $.02.

    ThacoBellthar_thaazdhenProont
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,267
    Not to mention that npcs have basically no characterization in BG1, so we HAVE to use headcanon for that game. And when the official canon doesn't match ours, people feel betrayed by the BG2 npcs.

  • MasterteoMasterteo Member Posts: 111
    Never thought that my simple post would have created such an animated discussion.

  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 525
    edited December 2017
    tbone1 said:

    Might I offer a little perspective? I am dealing with some serious health issues (with all the mental stress and anxiety that goes with it) and I approach them in a very data-driven, emotionless way. That's what has worked for me. I have talked with and worked with a lot of people facing similar issues. Some are more rational than others, some have a rationality that varies widely by situation, and some react as unpredictably as an inebriated honey badger. Some use their own religious views as a guide. It seems to me that Jaheira might be struggling with her shock of Khalid having been killed and tortured by lashing out (not an unknown phenomenon) and by falling back on her faith (in this case, a nature religion) for what to do. It's not a choice I would have made, it may seem irrational or heartless, but in the context of shock, emotion, and faith, it is a reaction and decision that one can at least see as plausible. I don't agree with it, but I can see why she makes that decision.

    Just my $.02.

    Would be nice, but game mechanics disagree with it. Temple visits for party members resurrection is part of the game. There is a special line from Jaheira about "regular" Khalid's death ("Khalid! If you die you'll never here the end of it!"). And if you say story has nothing to do with mechanics, here a banter about resurrection:

    Imoen: What... what was it like to die, Sarevok? Seeing as you've been through the experience repeatedly, I can't help but wonder if you've developed some... perspective on it?
    Sarevok: Do you intend for me to believe that a weakling such as yourself has never needed to be revived by a priest? Bah! I imagine this group has gained a discount at the temple of Helm for you, dear sister.
    Imoen: Yeah, but that's different. That's just some blackness and it's like, "Oops, here you go!" I don't think I've ever been really, really dead like you have.


    The lore and character description are given in little details like this. I do fully understand how difficult it is to follow every hint; the fact, that games are "just games", also that they are made "gameplay first - story second" and so on. But if you happen to like something and that particular something gets neglected (for me it's character consistency) - it is a tragedy. And attempts to put make up on it (rationalizing obvious bad writing) just hurts even more. Count it as some kind of obsession or something like that on my part.

    Post edited by Mirandel on
    tbone1Proont
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,996
    @Mirandel Fair enough. However (and I decided not to mention it in my previous post, but what the hell), I have known people with my condition who decided to rely on prayer instead of medicine. Or “alternative medicine”. Or holistic crystals. Or coffee enemas. (This for a cancer with no cure. I kid you not.) And others just as, um, unusual.

    Now, I don’t agree with those choices. In fact, when the subject of coffee enemas came up in a support group, it was all I could do to not say “room for cream?” Yet these are people who, by and large, are educated and literate making these decisions. It isn’t rational, if you ask me. But in some way, they come to this decision by processes that I can sort of see and some that make as much sense as a pork sundae.

    thar_thaazdhen
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 525
    edited December 2017
    (Managed to misspell "Imoen" - I'd say it should be a bannable offense on these forums).

    My deepest condolences to you for dealing with all these.
    Will never argue that desperate people do all kind of strange things and education or good brains do not guarantee always rational behavior. But as someone once said (can not find the exact quotation) "life can be all kind of chaotic and irrational, but art is expected to be logical and explained". For the simplest reason I'd say - otherwise it's too difficult to follow the idea.

  • GarrusN7GarrusN7 Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 153
    Wow, I see some heated arguments. Both correct and both just opinion based.

    You guys would be surprised but based on timeline, Jaheira should be only I believe 2 years or so older? She and Khalid would be married for probably 2-4 years, whatever CHARNAME's age was in BG1. As a Half Elf, I'm pretty sure the game treats you as a young adult, so even if Jaheira is only 2-4 years older, she shouldn't be considered as a child. ALSO WHY TF ARE YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT THE AGE OF ELVES WHEN IN DND LORE HALF ELVES HAVE DIFFERENT LIFE SPANS AND GROWTH RATE! So seriously speaking, the timeline is not flawed.

    All the arguments about betrayal and whatever is pointless. You just ran into bad luck. If she leaves you in danger zone, it's your fault for not being vigilant. I personally never had her leave in a danger zone, but I think that might be because I go for more of a real adventurer type of adventure.

    As for her moving on fast from Khalid. I do not think the devs considered that people would look at the time of saves so much, and so ended with a shot to the foot. Truthfully, if you look outside of save time, I think she probably mourned long enough, and with Khalid's blessing, she moved on and fell in love with the almighty one. Her romance feels the most natural and not forced. And IMHO, the protagonist being with a mature woman fits more than with: a childish Elf who is way older but behaves like a kid, a crazy half Elf mage who you seriously can't figure out if she likes you or just treats the whole thing Casual (like fuck me, I romance her in BG1 and next thing I know she sleeps with someone behind my back. Yes it's Never), or Nalia who...you know what, fuck her overall. Only her fortress is good, screw rest.

    I think the most satisfying thing is actually that a portrait of Tyrande fits as a great replacement for her original portrait. Voice, Personality and all of that. Perfect woman

  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    - Jaheira should be only I believe 2 years or so older?

    Are we talking the D&D canon timeline where Abdel Adrian is actually older than Jaheira?

    Jaheira was supposedly born during the Tethyrian civil war - between the 1347–1369 period.
    The time of troubles occurred in 1358.
    Abdel Adrian, the canon CHARNAME, was born in 1343 DR.

    Yeah, that's a weird one, considering there's doubt whether the elf is older than she is, and that she's "old friends" with Gorion, who just spent the past twenty years raising you.

    Likewise, whatever the usual nonsense people say about Bhaal spreading his seed beforehand, Bhaal was slain in late 1358, and CHARNAME was a baby when they tried to resurrect him, setting their infancy to sometime post 1358, and making them ten years old at the time the game starts in 1368.

    Winners don't do timelines, they mess with your brain, man.

    - ALSO WHY TF ARE YOU GUYS TALKING ABOUT THE AGE OF ELVES WHEN IN DND LORE HALF ELVES HAVE DIFFERENT LIFE SPANS AND GROWTH RATE!

    Because we're talking about CHARNAME as an elf, and about it being inappropriate for a Half-Elf who is your guardian to be macking on you.

    - All the arguments about betrayal and whatever is pointless. You just ran into bad luck. If she leaves you in danger zone, it's your fault for not being vigilant. I personally never had her leave in a danger zone, but I think that might be because I go for more of a real adventurer type of adventure.

    If "not doing quests" is "real adventurer" type of adventure, I applaud your next level Zen, but that's how it goes down. If you're romancing her it's either directly after the Harper quest or the "attacked in the wilderness by bandits" event. These are the two flags that must be set for the event, she abandons you immediately after the second flag is set.

    - Truthfully, if you look outside of save time, I think she probably mourned long enough, and with Khalid's blessing, she moved on and fell in love with the almighty one.

    Outside of "save time"(?) the maximum assumed time of Baldur's Gate II can be assumed to be one year, as Throne of Bhaal begins one year later. While it's possible for hardcore pause enthusiasts to get the full relationship in a week or so, generally, as mentioned elsewhere, it's around two months unless you're spending the entire time in bed.

    - There seems to be an active desire to dislike her among some commentators:

    Being aware that a character is a flawed individual is not an active desire to dislike that character. I'm quite fond of Anomen for his particular blend of flaws and virtues.

    - The idea that Jaheira's confidence was reliant upon a man is, if you ask me, an eagerness to impose misogyny on a highly nuanced character.

    Her "confidence" is such that she cannot accept a potential love interest disagreeing with her at any point. I would contend that this is deep seated vein of insecurity beneath that confidence, and that this is not a new trait, given her previous mate selection.

    Also, you're misusing the term misogyny.

    - The game Jaheira tells us that he is beyond resurrection, and the issue is never revisited in such a way as to imply Jaheira might have abandoned him.

    This may be excessively emotional of me, but if my spouse died, I would: a) Recover their body. b) Investigate possible avenues of recovery of which I may be unaware. c) Bury them. d) Enter a period of mourning for longer than six lovetalks.

    - If you don't want to get on board with that, I certainly cannot make you, but if so can we all at least agree that Minsc is a dreadful embarrassment of a Rashemi Berserker for not grabbing some remnant of Dynaheir's corpse on the way out to resurrect her?

    Minsc is a dreadful embarrassment regardless of anything else, but in defence of the manchild, he complains that they killed Dynaheir, I do not recall him pointing to any specific corpse, let alone a more or less intact one, and saying "yeah, that's her worldly remains", so Irenicus potentially fed her to his Otyugh.

    There's also no timetable given on the event. If she was slain while CHARNAME was being captured, there is a country between there and here, and Minsc could have been wracked by guilt and suffering alone in a cell for the better part of a year.

    He's also very clear on the fact that he is a failure, and there's no particular indication that his relationship with Aerie is anything more than symbolic.


    Beyond that, she is - and has for a long time - been entangled in a dynamic with somebody who has the essence of a God in them, and who might well become a God in full some day.

    - For starters, nobody is entitled to tell another person when they are allowed to love again, or how long they ought to grieve for.

    For the record, I can totally judge people based on behaviour personally distasteful to me.

    - Beyond that, she is - and has for a long time - been entangled in a dynamic with somebody who has the essence of a God in them, and who might well become a God in full some day.

    At most a year. Also, while I appreciate the evolutionary attitude towards mate selection, "wanting to make godling babies" seems slightly out of character for Jaheira.

    - As for Jaheira's reaction being "screw it". I would say this appears to be your own personal spin, which isn't supported by the actual dialog text.

    Sure, there's a brief emotional response on Jaheira's part, coupled with her claiming that her husband cannot be raised, and there's no need to even bother trying, a week-ish of coming to terms with her loss, and some enduring tenderness about losing people she cares about. In terms of anything more tangible than her just saying "don't question my obviously unquestionable love for the man I can't be bothered to even try raising or burying", however, "meh screw it" just about covers it.

    I think InKal put it best. Khalid was not Jaheira's true love, CHARNAME was. She just wasn't as into Khalid as he was into her.

    - Taking Khalid's body would slow down the party and perhaps sentence all of them to share Khalid's fate.

    Considering that the party frequently transports corpses to and fro, this is dubious at best. Minsc, from experience, can carry multiple corpses with few issues, and can drop them instantly in combat.

    Also, assuming Khalid is in kit form, there should be no issue with spreading the load across multiple backpacks as necessary.

    - EDIT: One more thing - although AD&D's Resurrection spell allows for restoring life with just a portion of the creature's remains, the BG games have never implemented the spell in that way. You need an intact body in BG games for Raise Dead/Resurrection. When a BG character is "chunked", they cannot be restored by Raise Dead or Resurrection. Assuming that Irenicus' torture of Khalid did the equivalent of "chunking" him, then it is consistent with the BG game's implementation of AD&D rules that he cannot be resurrected.

    If we're talking "game implementation", then Raise Dead has no time limit, and it's hard to suggest the post morten "cutting" Imoen refers to is significantly greater trauma than being burnt to death, bathed fatally in acid, chewed by wyverns, nearly but not quite bisected by a two handed sword or turned into a pin-cushion by a hundred arrows, or any other terrible fate that leaves a corpse more or less intact. Not that it matters as damage to a corpse post-mortem does not chunk it in-game.

    In either game or other, computer, game, lore, there are things that can and could have been done for a sufficiently dedicated adventurer if they really wanted the jitterman back.

    I would contend that it is most reasonable in either case to conclude that Jaheira made the declaration out of a combination of shock over the death and state of the corpse, her own beliefs as a druid about the natural order, and her wish not to allow Khalid to come back from whatever pleasant afterlife he ended up in to a world of memories of the significant trauma he appears to have undergone - as she does not at this point know it was done post-mortem. It was not necessarily the best decision, or the decision that the player would have made, but it is human and understandable all the same.

  • kotekokoteko Member Posts: 179
    I came here to say this, but @AstroBryGuy said it better:

    EDIT: One more thing - although AD&D's Resurrection spell allows for restoring life with just a portion of the creature's remains, the BG games have never implemented the spell in that way. You need an intact body in BG games for Raise Dead/Resurrection. When a BG character is "chunked", they cannot be restored by Raise Dead or Resurrection. Assuming that Irenicus' torture of Khalid did the equivalent of "chunking" him, then it is consistent with the BG game's implementation of AD&D rules that he cannot be resurrected.

    SkatanThacoBellAstroBryGuy
  • recklessheartrecklessheart Member Posts: 692
    Pantalion said:


    - The idea that Jaheira's confidence was reliant upon a man is, if you ask me, an eagerness to impose misogyny on a highly nuanced character.

    Her "confidence" is such that she cannot accept a potential love interest disagreeing with her at any point. I would contend that this is deep seated vein of insecurity beneath that confidence, and that this is not a new trait, given her previous mate selection.

    Also, you're misusing the term misogyny.

    All of the romances are pretty linear, to be honest. The lack of correct choices you can make in Jaheira's lovetalks aren't much greater than those in Aerie or Viconia's. That is something to be frustrated by, I agree, but I think it's only more of an issue with Jaheira because her romance is so much longer than the others, and as such the opportunities to deviate from the 'intended script', as it were, are more bountiful.

    Also I'm not misusing the term, insofar as that my argument is that people are going out of their way to find reasons to belittle the character when more apparent narrative excuses are given for her behaviour. The fact that people skip right past the circumstances under which her story happens and call her out for being a woman who falls apart without a man in her life is, in my opinion, a misogynistic reading.
    Pantalion said:


    - If you don't want to get on board with that, I certainly cannot make you, but if so can we all at least agree that Minsc is a dreadful embarrassment of a Rashemi Berserker for not grabbing some remnant of Dynaheir's corpse on the way out to resurrect her?

    Minsc is a dreadful embarrassment regardless of anything else, but in defence of the manchild, he complains that they killed Dynaheir, I do not recall him pointing to any specific corpse, let alone a more or less intact one, and saying "yeah, that's her worldly remains", so Irenicus potentially fed her to his Otyugh.

    There's also no timetable given on the event. If she was slain while CHARNAME was being captured, there is a country between there and here, and Minsc could have been wracked by guilt and suffering alone in a cell for the better part of a year.

    He's also very clear on the fact that he is a failure, and there's no particular indication that his relationship with Aerie is anything more than symbolic.

    Minsc explains when you first ask about Dynaheir that her spirit is "trapped in that cage", implying that she died in that same room where you regain consciousness at the beginning of the game.

    And I don't think Jaheira, through the course of her romance, declares herself to be any kind of success. In fact, the resolution with Terminsel at the end of the romance is Jaheira finally finding her resolve, and the belief that she has done the right thing. It takes her a long time to come to terms with her role in the SoA narrative. Her self-righteousness does not mean that she is, herself, always correct, and I think the romance does well to demonstrate her self-awareness in a way that other self-righteous characters (Nalia, Anomen) don't manage.
    Pantalion said:


    - For starters, nobody is entitled to tell another person when they are allowed to love again, or how long they ought to grieve for.

    For the record, I can totally judge people based on behaviour personally distasteful to me.

    You are absolutely allowed to judge people based on behaviour you find personally distasteful. It would be a true fool who claims that isn't what people do every day of their lives. You aren't, however, able to extend that judgement far enough to make the claim about whether or not that means the person loved another person. You don't have to like it, but it doesn't give you narrative authority over how that person feels.
    Pantalion said:

    - Beyond that, she is - and has for a long time - been entangled in a dynamic with somebody who has the essence of a God in them, and who might well become a God in full some day.

    At most a year. Also, while I appreciate the evolutionary attitude towards mate selection, "wanting to make godling babies" seems slightly out of character for Jaheira.

    I agree that this would be out of character for Jaheira: because it never once comes up in her dialogues at any point in the trilogy. Jaheira never asks you for Godling babies. Perhaps because you're making your point in a facetious way, I'm not sure what the point is you're trying to make here. If it is just to say you don't agree with my logic, that's cool, but if there's more to it than that I'd be interested to hear the point elaborated.


    ThacoBellthar_thaazdhenleeux
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137

    ...

    1: Yeah, as a meta reason it probably was related to Jaheira's popularity, Khalid's scrappy status, and wanting to have a solid foundation of characters for their innovative new "romance" schtick, backed by finding dramatic fates for the "canon" party that most players found themselves stumbling across. Khalid and Dynaheir's deaths helped cement an Anyone Can Die feeling to the plot, and served as a player punch against anyone who actually cared about any of the four characters.

    2: If you think people were less opinionated over this back in 2001, I don't know what to tell you. If anything it's testament to the game's writing that it still provokes discussion a decade and a half later. And considering that there's actually a response in-game for the player to rip on her for betraying the party, I'd be surprised if it didn't occur to anyone at the time, let alone the writers.

    3: Nobody is "interrupting the stranger's story". The story has been told, people who listened to that story are now either discussing what that story meant. Jaheira did X in the story, we know Y from elsewhere, therefore we can deduce Z, This is common to any story, regardless of medium.

    Then, of course, there are other people saying that you should ignore everything that happens in the story (sometimes "except for whatever justifies their own specific interpretation") because the storyteller wasn't very good at telling stories.

    The lack of correct choices you can make in Jaheira's lovetalks aren't much greater than those in Aerie or Viconia's.

    Sure, it's a question of degrees, but for Aerie and Viconia you can actually disagree, or "less than supportive" with quite a bit more freedom. For Anomen, you can straight up call him out on his behaviour repeatedly. Jaheira is simply the most restrictive of them all in what she will tolerate. Unwilling to accept dissenting opinion and being sure in your own opinion are not the same thing.
    Also I'm not misusing the term, insofar as that my argument is that people are going out of their way to find reasons to belittle the character when more apparent narrative excuses are given for her behaviour. The fact that people skip right past the circumstances under which her story happens and call her out for being a woman who falls apart without a man in her life is, in my opinion, a misogynistic reading.
    Even assuming the claim was that she fell apart without a man in her life (which was not the claim as far as I am aware) it would not be misogynistic. Misogyny refers to women, not woman. One can make claims about the individual without making claims about the gender.

    - Minsc explains when you first ask about Dynaheir that her spirit is "trapped in that cage", implying that she died in that same room where you regain consciousness at the beginning of the game.

    1: Thank you for actually using content from the game in discussion with me, rather than "design limitations", "established canon" or somesuch, it's nice to discuss based on actual lore and quotes.
    2: Does he? Cool, good catch. Everything else I said still applies, as we do not know the fate of her corpse, or how long he's had to suffer in the same room she died in. Resurrection is powerful, but I don't think "Otyugh dung" counts as a body part.

    - And I don't think Jaheira, through the course of her romance, declares herself to be any kind of success. In fact, the resolution with Terminsel at the end of the romance is Jaheira finally finding her resolve, and the belief that she has done the right thing. It takes her a long time to come to terms with her role in the SoA narrative. Her self-righteousness does not mean that she is, herself, always correct, and I think the romance does well to demonstrate her self-awareness in a way that other self-righteous characters (Nalia, Anomen) don't manage.

    Yeah, was more pointing out that yes, "Minsc is a failure as a 'zerker, and he knows it" rather than anything specific about Jaheira with that.

    Nalia is generally awful, but Anomen isn't too bad when romanced, particularly post test, and you can at least constantly call him out without ending or endangering the romance.

    - You are absolutely allowed to judge people based on behaviour you find personally distasteful. It would be a true fool who claims that isn't what people do every day of their lives. You aren't, however, able to extend that judgement far enough to make the claim about whether or not that means the person loved another person. You don't have to like it, but it doesn't give you narrative authority over how that person feels.

    Sure, Jaheira and Khalid could just have developed a hugely lopsided relationship where he dotes on her, agrees with everything she says, gives her gifts fuelled by the power of love itself, and she does nothing in particular for him, including leaving his corpse to be eaten by Mephits - or further desecrated by an evil wizard - while both being deeply, truly in a mutual love for one another that culminates in her flirting with her drastically younger ward within a month of his death.

    But yeah, while not having any particular authority, I personally will continue to say that strongly suggests she's far less into him than he is into her, in the same way that I could say that Mazzy loves her family - because her actions in-game infer such - without being able to, or needing to, say definitively the specific emotions going through her head.

    - I agree that this would be out of character for Jaheira: because it never once comes up in her dialogues at any point in the trilogy. Jaheira never asks you for Godling babies. Perhaps because you're making your point in a facetious way, I'm not sure what the point is you're trying to make here. If it is just to say you don't agree with my logic, that's cool, but if there's more to it than that I'd be interested to hear the point elaborated.

    If in doubt, I am generally being either facetious, sarcastic, or both.

    In this case, "Godling babies" refers to trading up to CHARNAME as a superior prospective mate over Khalid.

    While her attitude towards Khalid's death appears rather subdued, and gets over it quickly, I would consider there to be little evidence to support the idea that she was actively "looking to trade up", or, as you say, where she makes any particular mention towards considering CHARNAME's divine origin to be a strong positive factor in her relationship choices. Quite the opposite, considering the player can call her out on probing him over his taint at least once. If anything it's despite, not because, of their nature that the romance occurs.

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147

    @the_sextein

    "It's like when some stranger tells a story at a campfire, you can listen and enjoy it for what it is or you can over analyze it and constantly interrupt the stranger and throw a fit because his story isn't perfect."

    Totally agree, and with the other points in your post.

    But have to ask,
    Where's the fun in that? :D

    The developers knew exactly what they were doing. It's a real and awkward RPG aspect of BG that you have to put up with a partnership when recruiting.
    BG2 conveniently got rid of all partnerships because the game was designed to appeal to a wider audience, how they did that is really irrelevent.

    And of course they killed off the partner who was considered less appealing to the majority.

    Strangely enough though, the dreadful books that are being discussed in the thread "Unpopular Opinions" got it spot on that a male Charname would have been after Jaheira long before Khalid's "unfortunate" demise.

    My eternal question from a female perspective is "why?"
    Can't you see you are going after your mother or a mother substitute?
    Men are very strange.

    Pantalion
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited December 2017
    Heh, on the contrary. I've seen more girls who go after guys that are just like their own fathers. I can't speak for anyone else but for me, Jaheira had a man so I didn't consider her or look at her like that. As a result I guess you tend to let your guard down and just judge them for who they are without any of that sexual baggage attached. When Khalid was gone I just talked to her and gave her support like I felt that I should. When something came of it, I went with it. Like I said before, you have a history and you know her. She is not in your party because you have a love interest in her. She is your companion and you have other reasons to be with each other. It comes on natural. To be honest that is what I like about real relationships. I strongly disagree with setting yourself up with some internet date that you found on a online catalogue. The relationship in BG2 with Jahiera is natural and awesome.

    Pantalion, I believe people were a lot less obsessed at picking things apart and were more capable of simply enjoying a story for what it is. You are correct that the writers thought about it and so they created a line to allow you to be put in your place if you had a problem with it. At the same time they also gave you a reason to believe that Khalid could not be saved. It was thought of and well written. It's just that these days people pick everything to death so most stories have a P.C. perfection to them that make them all the same pretentious "appeal to everyone" story with a perfectly multicultural cast and a script written by a news team. They leave no chance for thought or personal interpretation because they don't want people arguing about their characters or story. Otherwise you get what Beamdog got when SOD released. That is how things are today. People discussed this when the game launched but I don't remember anyone picking at it and making moral judgments on a fictitious character but at the time I was young and maybe I just didn't go to the places on the net where they were having those discussions. I know I never had a problem with it even as a teen.

    PantalionThacoBell
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,267
    @UnderstandMouseMagic It helps if you never thought of Jaheira as a mother figure. I always felt she was simply just a teacher.

    leeux
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited December 2017
    I didn't look at her as a mother or a teacher because I found both to be annoying when I was a child. I looked at her as a cool older girl from the neighborhood that had a little more experience at life than you but she was still close enough to your level that you could hang out without boring her completely. As I said before, she had a man. I didn't let her and Khalid into my group in the original game because I thought I might be able to win her over and ruin her marriage. I let them into my group in BG1 because it felt like the correct thing to do. They had knowledge of my foster father and they were willing to hang out with me.

    Post edited by the_sextein on
    ThacoBelltbone1Proont
  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,077
    Regardless of the widow-thing, I'd be very uncomfortable dating anyone my father refers to as "old friend".

    PantalionMirandelProont
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited December 2017
    They are both level 1 when you meet them so they couldn't have spent much time with him. Gorian may have referred to them as old friends to convey that they can be trusted. Gorian is your foster father and he hardly aged a day in the 20 years he spent raising your character and yet he was very old. I can only imagine how old he was. If he meant it literally then Jeheira must have been hundreds of years old and never made it to level 2. Not that I care though, I don't let little inconsistences bother me. In fact I usually think of the Time of Troubles as something that took place in ancient past. Why? Don't know, it just feels more cool that way. I grew up playing games like Double Dragon where the story was that your girlfriend got kidnapped by the boss of a huge street gang and that was it. You spent the whole game beating everyone up in his gang so that you could finally face off with him and get your girlfriend back. Or Contra where aliens destroyed earth so it was your duty to single handedly kick all of their teeth in. Calicovision and Atari didn't even have stories. In those games you were just a white blob of pixels and you were trying desperately not to be touched by the evil red blob of pixels.

    If Gorian refers to Jahiera as an old friend and I eventually hook up with her? Oh well.

  • ArtonaArtona Member Posts: 1,077
    My father refering to kid my age as "old friend" would only make things worse, especially if he lied to me about that friendship.
    And if I were to ignore all those "little inconsistences", I'd simply make another character and headcanon her as LI of my Bhaalspawn. ;)

  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    edited December 2017
    Well, I guess that is just how we differ then. If I met Taylor Swift at a douchy restaurant and we hit it off and had a good time in a hotel room and then two years later I found out that she was a 2,000 year old alien that slept with my great great great grandfather..... I would be totally cool with that. She was still hot and we still had a good time. :)

  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147

    Jaheira belittles charname constantly through BG.
    She doesn't teach, she belittles, as she does all the time with her husband and everybody else.

    Why on earth would any charname not realise that would be the basis of the relationship?
    And that she wouldn't be unwilling to give up that power?

    I can imagine her at the throne should you decide to go for Godhood,

    "It's not that I am angry with you, just disappointed,"

    in that particular tone of voice you use for recalcitrant children.

    PantalionProont
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,267
    @UnderstandMouseMagic She does? I can think of only 2 lines. If your rep drops, she says that "I don't like how the group is turning out, better leadership might help". And when you first meet them and talk to Khalid first he says that you remind him of Gorion and she goes, "Yes, though it may be a slight on him." Unnesscarily rude, but oddly enough, if you talk to her first she just goes, "You must be Gorion's ward, your manner is much like his". So she compliments you instead if you talk to her first. Very odd, but I think saying she belittles you "constantly" is unfair. She is sassy though.

  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    I think it's just that she was supposed to be a nagging wife who was very strong and stubborn in the first game and they didn't consider her having any kind of interaction with the player outside of establishing her strong will and judgmental attitude. Her Husband was supposed to be good natured and open minded. If anything it was a play on the roles of the sexes at the time. I believe it was meant to be humorous more than anything. They only had a few lines to establish each character's personality.

    I'm a dude, I like to be treated nicely but this is an adventure where you are clubbing heads for a living. As a teenager, I wanted a group of intimidating bad mofo's that would fit the part. I didn't want to be evil and do evil things but I wanted to be a bad A$$. I put up with Imoen because we had a past and she was trying to help me but her personality hardly fit the vibe of what was happening on screen. I picked up Monty and Xzar because they were wild and crazy. What little we had to go on was some bizarre lines laced with dark humor. I felt Jaheira fit the part because she was serious and had an alpha attitude. Her husband did not fit the role of a party member I was looking for. I could totally understand when people said they liked her but didn't want Khalid around. However, I never looked at her as a possible romance. I had never experainced a romance in a video game until FF7 which was around the same time that the original Baldur's Gate came out. I also liked Minsc because he was big and crazy. I liked Dynaheir because she was down to earth and looked like she could be dangerous.

    Over the years I no longer care about that sort of thing. I have learned to like and respect Khalid and I feel his loss at the start of SOA. I think the reason why many gamers liked the Jahiera romance was that they felt like they had a special bond with her since she was tough as nails but was willing to open up and let you in to help her out when things hit the fan in BG2. Trying to crack through her outer shell was a challenge in a way that can be rewarding to get through. Perhaps I just don't take her lines in BG1 as anything but sarcastic aggression. When Khalid asks her why she must always be so insufferable I found a hint of their real relationship at least in my mind. Her aggressive attitude was her outside appearance in public and the way she knew how to present herself but deep down she had a soft core that only someone special could know and understand. She may be rude and call you child but you earn her respect throughout the series and she starts to lean on you in the end.

    It is just a game after all and I like to look at things in a way that sits well with me as a gamer because the canon party is the most consistent so it is always one of my favorite ways to play. As I've mentioned before, her story is more flushed out and more integrated into the game in my opinion. I wasn't looking for romance and I would have felt stupid doing so in this kind of adventure but Jahiera's romance felt written in a way that didn't bother me or cause me to roll my eyes.

    thar_thaazdhenleeux
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