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Elemental Princes +2 weapon?

wdarkkwdarkk Member Posts: 12
in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
The Adventurer's Guide lists the elemental prince summons as striking as +2 weapons. That seems fairly pathetic for an "ultimate" Druid summon, considering that the regular elementals you can summon as early as level 14 strike as +4. Is that really the case?

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  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • RaduzielRaduziel Member Posts: 4,714
    It's quite hard to compare PnP to BGEE.

    I play AD&D for seventeen years and I never had a campaign where every single character of the party had a full set of magical items (boots, rings, amulet, armor, shield, weapons, etc). And the few magical items that we had was nothing compared to Crom Fayer, for example.

    Tone down the weapon enchantment resistances would require a tone down to the availability of weapons through all the saga.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited January 2018
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • wdarkkwdarkk Member Posts: 12
    Is the adventure guide actually accurate there, though? I think I see a few other errors in the summon section, and I don't have a high-level druid to check with yet.
  • SirBatinceSirBatince Member Posts: 882
    I feel like the real issue here is that chan and zulman are garbage compared to sunnis. I even changed the spell to always summon sunnis in my game. screw randomness :)
  • KhyronKhyron Member Posts: 627
    subtledoctor said:

    The design problem identified here is not that the princes' weapons have a too-low enchantment; it is that that matters at all.

    The PnP lore has, as an example, one of the nine rulers of Baator - basically demigods - being killed by a backstab with a simple dagger +2. If Bioware has a bunch of enemies in here that require higher enchantments, it's both wrong and annoying. And this, bad design.

    Now that I say (type) it out loud, this would make a good candidate for a Tweak mod: "Revised Weapon Enchantment Resistances."

    This.

    This needs to become part of the Tweaks Anthology.. preferably several years ago.
  • wdarkkwdarkk Member Posts: 12
    edited January 2018
    Doesn't 2E have a thing where weapons lose bonus as they get further from their plane of origin? You might need a weapon that's +4 on Faerun to have a +2 weapon in the Throne of Bhaal.

    Also, Demiliches might still need +4.

    EDIT: I had a friend check, and it is a +4 minimum. At least people who aren't paladins, fighters, or rangers can do more than one damage at a time.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,725
    edited January 2018
    Have just checked in the NearInfinity.

    Attacks by Chan, Sunnis and Zaaman Rul all strike as +3 weapons (their weapons' enchantment is 3), while attacks by Fire Elementals strike as +4 weapons.

    Filed a public ticket for now - https://support.baldursgate.com/issues/35213
    Post edited by JuliusBorisov on
  • wdarkkwdarkk Member Posts: 12
    JuliusBorisov said:

    Have just checked in the NearInfinity.

    Attacks by Chan, Sunnis and Zaaman Rul all strike as +3 weapons (their weapons' enchantment is 3), while attacks by Fire Elementals strike as +4 weapons.

    That's not as bad, but still weird it's lower than generic summons.

    How many things require +4 to hit anyway? Demiliches (2), Mel, ?
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    wdarkk said:

    JuliusBorisov said:

    Have just checked in the NearInfinity.

    Attacks by Chan, Sunnis and Zaaman Rul all strike as +3 weapons (their weapons' enchantment is 3), while attacks by Fire Elementals strike as +4 weapons.

    That's not as bad, but still weird it's lower than generic summons.

    How many things require +4 to hit anyway? Demiliches (2), Mel, ?
    Even Melyssan takes only +3 weapons IIRC...

    I know I forget one or two but basically the only ones I can name right now are the demiliches, the death shade and the demon lord in Ust Natha. These last two take +5 weapons! +5 weapons are normally reserved to demigods, archdevils and the likes in lore.
    The only few people that have a legit +5 weapon lore-wise in BG are Melyssan, Demogorgon, and maybe the ToB Bhaalspawns, and arguably The Winged since she is a former high ranking celestial general.
    I mean, even Drizzt only has +3 scimitars and he is a legendary hero.
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,725
    wdarkk said:

    JuliusBorisov said:

    Have just checked in the NearInfinity.

    Attacks by Chan, Sunnis and Zaaman Rul all strike as +3 weapons (their weapons' enchantment is 3), while attacks by Fire Elementals strike as +4 weapons.

    That's not as bad, but still weird it's lower than generic summons.

    How many things require +4 to hit anyway? Demiliches (2), Mel, ?
    Enemies that can't be hit by a +3 weapon:

    - The Ravager
    - Demilich (only 2 of them, Kangaxx and WK's one)
    - Aurumach Rilmani (WK's last fight before Demogorgon)
    - the werewolf woman person (Annath) in Umar Hills (you need +5 for her)
    - The end game Solar (you are not supposed to fight her)

    (credit goes to @SomeSort and @sarevok57 here and to @Demivrgvs here)

    @Demivrgvs here says you might be alright with +3 weapons against:

    - the Demon from the Underdark
    - the Devil Shade from the Deck of many things
  • kjeronkjeron Member Posts: 2,367
    Now that there is an opcode for it, it would be simple enough to patch all natural-attack-weapons to provide the HD-appropriate "strike as +X" to any creature that uses them.
    4HD = bypass immunity to normal/silver/cold-iron weapons
    6HD = bypass immunity to +1 or lower
    8HD = bypass immunity to +2 or lower
    10HD = bypass immunity to +3 or lower

    Would have to omit the partial HD limits, but whatever. Just about any (non-ammo) weapon without a proficiency could be updated with these effects, excluding FIST and MFIST variants of course. It does make the Monks progression look pathetic though. Polymorph's could go either way, using the casters HD, or having unique weapons with preset enchantment levels.
  • wdarkkwdarkk Member Posts: 12
    Also Melissan if you're using Ascension.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    edited January 2018
    JuliusBorisov said:

    wdarkk said:

    JuliusBorisov said:

    Have just checked in the NearInfinity.

    Attacks by Chan, Sunnis and Zaaman Rul all strike as +3 weapons (their weapons' enchantment is 3), while attacks by Fire Elementals strike as +4 weapons.

    That's not as bad, but still weird it's lower than generic summons.

    How many things require +4 to hit anyway? Demiliches (2), Mel, ?
    Enemies that can't be hit by a +3 weapon:

    - The Ravager
    - Demilich (only 2 of them, Kangaxx and WK's one)
    - Aurumach Rilmani (WK's last fight before Demogorgon)
    - the werewolf woman person (Annath) in Umar Hills (you need +5 for her)
    - The end game Solar (you are not supposed to fight her)

    (credit goes to @SomeSort and @sarevok57 here and to @Demivrgvs here)

    @Demivrgvs here says you might be alright with +3 weapons against:

    - the Demon from the Underdark
    - the Devil Shade from the Deck of many things
    from the looks of it, the Lesser Demon Lord ( underdark demon ) requires +5 or better weapons to hit, and i couldnt find a devil shade from a deck of many things, but the Death shade from the deck of many things from what i can tell is immune to no weapon ( just lots of resistances ) and it has 21 lore ( lol )
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,985
    I have to say that BG always struck me as a Monty Haul game; meaning magic items are all too freely available. Varscona, for example, should probably not be in the hands of a fighter under level 9. Gauntlets of Dexterity are too readily available. In all my years of PnP we found one (1) (.5 x 2) tome/manual, and that was the price for a resurrection spell. BG2 is in some ways worse, though playing higher level PCs makes it more necessary and less grating
  • BorekBorek Member Posts: 513
    Yeah the Ust Nathia Demon Lord definitely requires +5, i tried several +4's without luck, ended up having to use Carsomyr despite lack of any proficiencies on 1 run because nothing else i had would hit it and that character wasn't a spell caster lol.
  • ThacoBellThacoBell Member Posts: 12,235
    I enjoy the monty haul nature of the bg games. So many fun and cool items to use.
  • sarevok57sarevok57 Member Posts: 5,975
    ThacoBell said:

    I enjoy the monty haul nature of the bg games. So many fun and cool items to use.

    indeed, and even then, bg1 for example where in theory you can get a +2 long sword at level 1, even though it's +2, mechanics wise it's not overwhelmingly more powerful than a +1 longsword, it's only +1 to hit/ to damage

    so it's not like this impressive items are game breaking when you get them early
  • tbone1tbone1 Member Posts: 1,985
    You know those robes that Thalantyr sells at High Hedge? Those might qualify, since nce they provide big help to mages.
  • wdarkkwdarkk Member Posts: 12
    How hard would it be to make a mod that changes their weapon bonus? I've never made a mod for this game before, but I have for others.
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