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Politics. The feel in your country.

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  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    edited February 2018
    deltago said:

    Grond0 said:

    (...)

    A better comparison to the introduction of gun control would be to look at the number of gun deaths - there was no increase in the UK in these after 1997.(...)

    So doesn't matter if the rapes, if tortures, murderers. etc, etc, etc become extreme more frequent. Only "gun violence" matters?

    Note that in USA according to this "gun violence" statistics, if someone invade a farm and get killed, is "gun violence"(yes, statistics tends to put self defense and suicide as "gun violence), but if gun control is approved and the attacker invade the farm, kill all man and rape all woman, then is not "gun violence"... What scenario is better?
    Meanwhile in Canada:

    Let me point you to this very recent case of gun violence in Canada.

    A group of friends were heading back home from a swimming hole in rural Saskatchewan when they got a flat tire. They turned onto private property looking for help. With no one around they thought their best course of action was to steal a tire from a nearby parked truck so they could get home safely.

    The owner of the property appeared and began firing both a rifle and a hand gun up in the air as he approached the truck with a bad tire. Before reaching the car, he removed the magazine from his gun but still had it in his hand while he reached into the truck to remove the keys from it. While doing so, the gun fired, going into the drivers head killing him instantly.

    Does stealing a tire warrant a death sentence?

    One person should not be able to decide if another individual is guilty of a crime. They also should not be able to pass a death sentence regardless of what that crime is. This isn't self defence. The farmer was never in danger

    The farmer btw was found not guilty, and started a massive backlash against the verdict delivered, him and his gofundme page as well as how Canada selects potential jurors in cases such as these. There is also the debate of the castle doctrine in how the farmer has every right to use deadly force to defend his home.

    A small silver lining in the case is that the farmer still faces more charges and is going back to court for them. Those are for gun laws requiring proper storage . This will probably result in a fine. a nice small slap in the face to the victims family and a smaller slap on the wrist for him.
    Well, it sounds like the correct verdict, given the charge of second degree murder and your reiteration of the facts. Second degree murder has to be intentional, and from what you describe (I'm assuming the accuracy of your post) it sounds like the gunshot was accidental. This looks like a classic case of the prosecutor overcharging in the face of public pressure.

    The castle doctrine wouldn't even be applicable, but I guess its a good time to debate it in Canada.
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037

    Yes the government will make the laws or change the laws. Right now, things are not great due to Republicans gerrymandering we hg Ave a government that only represents a small fraction of the people correctly. We must vote these sonofabitches out despite this. We must replace them with people who will represent people more than corporate interests.

    Good luck finding politicians who are not in the pockets of corporate interests.
  • deltagodeltago Member Posts: 7,811

    Well, it sounds like the correct verdict, given the charge of second degree murder and your reiteration of the facts. Second degree murder has to be intentional, and from what you describe (I'm assuming the accuracy of your post) it sounds like the gunshot was accidental. This looks like a classic case of the prosecutor overcharging in the face of public pressure.

    The castle doctrine wouldn't even be applicable, but I guess its a good time to debate it in Canada.
    Manslaughter was also an option to the jurors.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164
    deltago said:


    Well, it sounds like the correct verdict, given the charge of second degree murder and your reiteration of the facts. Second degree murder has to be intentional, and from what you describe (I'm assuming the accuracy of your post) it sounds like the gunshot was accidental. This looks like a classic case of the prosecutor overcharging in the face of public pressure.

    The castle doctrine wouldn't even be applicable, but I guess its a good time to debate it in Canada.
    Manslaughter was also an option to the jurors.

    Ah, ok I didn't see that. That's a much closer call.
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176

    The US had children laboring away and women who could not vote and on and on. We have had the great depression due to unregulated wall street.

    The great depression was because FED manipulated credit like in 2008. See the video Peter Schiff was Right. A comment on the video from ska8mark Peter was better at describing what happened in the financial crisis before it actually happened than any of these analysts were after all the dominoes had fallen.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgRGBNekFIw

    Just because Argentina has had a bad experience with leftist stuff - which I would need to research to discuss - doesn't mean it will be the same in every country. In fact it seems like you have the one exception to the rule. The UK, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, Australia have governments that would be extremely far left compared to the US and are very successful countries.

    Look to all countries who was forced annexed by Bolshevik communist. Only few countries are "developed" now. Sweden is the Rape capital of Europe. The average woman is much safer in Switzerland than in Sweden.

    Sweden to become a Third World Country by 2030, according to UN
    http://www.speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.454/sweden-to-become-a-third-world-country-by-2030-according-to-un.html

    Here is the projections for very high HDI countries ( http://ww.rrojasdatabank.info/HDRP_2010_40.pdf )
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    The US had children laboring away and women who could not vote and on and on. We have had the great depression due to unregulated wall street.

    The great depression was because FED manipulated credit like in 2008. See the video Peter Schiff was Right. A comment on the video from ska8mark Peter was better at describing what happened in the financial crisis before it actually happened than any of these analysts were after all the dominoes had fallen.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sgRGBNekFIw

    Just because Argentina has had a bad experience with leftist stuff - which I would need to research to discuss - doesn't mean it will be the same in every country. In fact it seems like you have the one exception to the rule. The UK, Sweden, Norway, the Netherlands, Australia have governments that would be extremely far left compared to the US and are very successful countries.

    Look to all countries who was forced annexed by Bolshevik communist. Only few countries are "developed" now. Sweden is the Rape capital of Europe. The average woman is much safer in Switzerland than in Sweden.

    Sweden to become a Third World Country by 2030, according to UN
    http://www.speisa.com/modules/articles/index.php/item.454/sweden-to-become-a-third-world-country-by-2030-according-to-un.html

    Here is the projections for very high HDI countries ( http://ww.rrojasdatabank.info/HDRP_2010_40.pdf )
    It seems you are falling for fake news about Sweden and many other things. Please educate yourself by going to legitimate websites.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    "Educate yourself" is a poor way to argue. It shows little respect for the other side and imparts no useful information. I've never seen any good come from that phrase.

    If somebody doesn't know something that they need to know, tell them what the thing is, specifically. Don't just order them to "get enlightened, like I am."
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    As for the Sweden thing, I'm not sure how trustworthy it is. Putting aside its unedited writing:
    Speisa said:

    In 2010 Sweden had the 15th place in the HDI rankings but according to UN forecasts, Sweden will be #25 in 2015, and in 2030 on the 45th place.

    This article predicted that Sweden would be 25th in terms of HDI in the year 2015. As it happens, we have data for 2015, and it placed Sweden in 14th for HDI, and 8th for inequality-adjusted HDI. The article's prediction was pretty far off the mark: rather than dropping its position, Sweden's position got better between 2010 and 2015.

    It seems like the author just wanted an excuse to say that immigration is bad because poor countries have low-quality immigrants. That's actually the ending sentence for the article:
    Speisa said:

    The logic should be really simple to understand, yet many have difficulties grasping it: If you import the Third World, it's what you'll get.

  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    Rick Gates is going to plead guilty to new charges of money laundering and tax evasion which were filed by the Mueller Investigation. That means white collar prison, which is like staying at a decent hotel except there is no bar and you can't check out.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I'd probably be much more skeptical of leftist politics if I lived in South America than in the United States. South American countries have a much longer tradition of far-left politics, including communism. Up here, we're not really at risk for implementing any radical leftist policies.

    Obama didn't even implement a single-payer health care system; he borrowed Romney's model. Even when the Democrats controlled both houses of Congress and the presidency in the first couple years of Obama's first term, we saw no skyrocketing taxes, no big affirmative action programs, no spike in welfare spending or a loosening of its requirements, no gun confiscation or gun owner databases, and no amnesty for illegal immigrants, nor an increase in immigration, legal or illegal.

    Those are some of the things that are most alarming to conservatives about the Democratic agenda. Yet none of them happened even when the Democrats had the votes to implement all of them.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited February 2018

    "Educate yourself" is a poor way to argue. It shows little respect for the other side and imparts no useful information. I've never seen any good come from that phrase.

    If somebody doesn't know something that they need to know, tell them what the thing is, specifically. Don't just order them to "get enlightened, like I am."

    I have responded to his fake news links and then he just repeats them or changes the subject to something totally unrelated. Other people including you have responded and clearly disproven his fake news and he just throws some other thing at the window.

    What do you do when people don't accept the truth and spread false information?

    We can't get bogged down responding to the rumor of the moon being made of cheese and then it's changed to now sponges spread cancer.
    By the time you present the truth about the moon its just a waste of time. You'll never be able to discuss really important things if you are chasing around your tail like that and it's a waste of your time.

    This guy wants to believe "left bad, government bad. Sweden rape. Guns guns guns answer to everything." Even in spite of evidence. So fine, I'm not going to waste my time replying to sources from alt-right propaganda websites.

    If you give someone evidence and they choose to ignore it and instead push fake news, whats a guy to do?

    I'm going to focus my energy in a positive manner.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    As for the Sweden thing, I'm not sure how trustworthy it is. Putting aside its unedited writing:

    Speisa said:

    In 2010 Sweden had the 15th place in the HDI rankings but according to UN forecasts, Sweden will be #25 in 2015, and in 2030 on the 45th place.

    This article predicted that Sweden would be 25th in terms of HDI in the year 2015. As it happens, we have data for 2015, and it placed Sweden in 14th for HDI, and 8th for inequality-adjusted HDI. The article's prediction was pretty far off the mark: rather than dropping its position, Sweden's position got better between 2010 and 2015.

    It seems like the author just wanted an excuse to say that immigration is bad because poor countries have low-quality immigrants. That's actually the ending sentence for the article:
    Speisa said:

    The logic should be really simple to understand, yet many have difficulties grasping it: If you import the Third World, it's what you'll get.

    @semiticgod
    https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/speisa/

    Bias: Extreme Right, Propaganda, Conspiracy, Anti-Islam

    Spesia:
    Overall, this site is a questionable source due to publication of anti-Muslim propaganda and poor sourcing with an extreme right wing bias. (M. Huitsing 1/29/2018)
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    edited February 2018

    I'd probably be much more skeptical of leftist politics if I lived in South America than in the United States. South American countries have a much longer tradition of far-left politics, including communism. Up here, we're not really at risk for implementing any radical leftist policies.

    Obama didn't even implement a single-payer health care system; he borrowed Romney's model. Even when the Democrats controlled both houses of Congress and the presidency in the first couple years of Obama's first term, we saw no skyrocketing taxes, no big affirmative action programs, no spike in welfare spending or a loosening of its requirements, no gun confiscation or gun owner databases, and no amnesty for illegal immigrants, nor an increase in immigration, legal or illegal.

    Those are some of the things that are most alarming to conservatives about the Democratic agenda. Yet none of them happened even when the Democrats had the votes to implement all of them.

    The majority of immigrants from latin america in north america vote for left(except Argentinians, Cubans and Chileans who are a minority in USA). The same happens in the unique "high income" country in south america(Chile), They move to Chile and try vote to make Chile into Venezuela. If you managed to get into a better country, why try make your "new country" like your "old country"?

    Americans in particular tends to see Latin America as a racially and culturally, 'climatically', homogeneous group; from North of Mexico to South of Patagonia(except Falklands because they speak English)... When i visited Bariloche, i saw some USA tourists won't believing that they are seeing "latin people" in fact Bariloche is (IN)famous for receiving a lot of war criminals from WW2 Germany ( http://lookatallthepoorpeople.com/nazi-hunting-in-bariloche-argentina/ ) and was 'founded' by immigrants... i personally an libertarian. I think that if you wanna voluntary live in a far left community is your right. If you wanna live in a far right community is your right but i an very skeptical of any centralized government because i saw how it will always fail in short or long therm.
  • booinyoureyesbooinyoureyes Member Posts: 6,164



    Of course, this just serves to highlight how little the two sides understand each other--what conservatives *think* liberals want is not what liberals actually want just like what liberals *think* conservatives want is not what conservatives actually want.

    That's an oversimplification of the factions in American politics. Not *all* liberals/conservatives want the same thing, but certain factions within each party may want different things.

    For example, most American liberals don't want the government to enact a heavily leftist agenda, but certainly the Bernie Sanders faction does. Each party is a big tent, and they must be in order to survive the electoral landscape.
  • JoenSoJoenSo Member Posts: 910
    These myths about Sweden have been debunked so many times (even just in this thread). I feel like a broken record whenever I have to repeat the whole thing about different definitions of rape, misreading statistics and so on. Trying to argue against these constant myths, misconceptions and fake news about Sweden is like an endless game of Whac-A-Mole.
  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    edited February 2018
    JoenSo said:

    These myths about Sweden have been debunked so many times (even just in this thread). I feel like a broken record whenever I have to repeat the whole thing about different definitions of rape, misreading statistics and so on. Trying to argue against these constant myths, misconceptions and fake news about Sweden is like an endless game of Whac-A-Mole.

    Yes, i posted wrong information, but only one question. The average woman is safer in Switzerland or in Sweden?
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037

    That's an oversimplification of the factions in American politics. Not *all* liberals/conservatives want the same thing, but certain factions within each party may want different things.

    True. I wasn't trying to give an overview of every subgroup--not only would I not have enough time to type all that out, but I wouldn't want to bore everyone else with a wall of text. The principle still holds, though--in general, political group A has mistaken ideas about what political group B wants.

  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    edited February 2018

    JoenSo said:

    These myths about Sweden have been debunked so many times (even just in this thread). I feel like a broken record whenever I have to repeat the whole thing about different definitions of rape, misreading statistics and so on. Trying to argue against these constant myths, misconceptions and fake news about Sweden is like an endless game of Whac-A-Mole.

    Yes, i posted wrong information, but only one question. The average woman is safer in Switzerland or in Sweden?
    To point out the absurdity of your question, here's an absurd answer the average woman is 91% safe in Switzerland and also 91% protected in Sweden.

    Consider a rallying point for NRA--Democrats want to repeal the Second Amendment.

    Fear tactics. Conservatives are a fearful frightended bunch of people and they rely on fear to keep their people in line. They need the working class and the poor to be scared of something so that their corporate masters can run off with all the cash. It's the oldest trick in the book.

    Democrats are going to be accused of wanting to repeal the 2nd amendment and being socialists or whatever. Is it because the NRA or Trump has done careful research and will present proof? No, they are just throwing that BS out there but they are going to say it anyway! These people are so disingenuous. Many democrats don't want to do anything about guns because they're scared it might cost them some votes. But the NRA says they are going to repeal the 2nd amendment the second they get in office. The right wing excels at mudslinging. Screw those guys :D See two can play that game. Wacth this: the NRA and republican party wants to kill your kids with guns. See two can play the ridiculous conclusion game.

    The NRA is a paid lobbying group that wants to sell as many guns as possible. They are a capitalist organization that hides behind patriotism. Their special patriotism lets the love the 2nd amendment but they are against the 1st amendment. The paid spokesperson for the NRA was asked "what about letting 18 yr olds get AR-15 has to do with a WELL REGULATED MILITIA?" She said like when it was written the founding fathers meant a well regulated militia is a person that could load a gun. So they are willing to interpret, when convenient, the 2nd amendment in the context of the time but of course when you ask them about hey they had muskets back then firing one round every now and then they are like "oh no! the 2nd amendment is clear, we need all the guns! you can't interpret the document from the times! Its there in plain language! Originalist!"

    These people are not genuine. They are paid lobbyists of gun manufacturers. They accuse others of being paid protestors or whatever but these guys literally are paid lobbyists for guns.

  • SorcererV1ct0rSorcererV1ct0r Member Posts: 2,176
    Well, i rather have everyone armed than only criminals and rather have legal companies profiting by selling weapons than illegal weapon traffickers...
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 7,318

    Well, i rather have everyone armed than only criminals and rather have legal companies profiting by selling weapons than illegal weapon traffickers...

    I know I said I wouldn't respond further in relation to weapons, but @SorcererV1ct0r is making a good point in a more general context - ultimately a law is only useful if it gets public support. That doesn't necessarily mean that most people would have voted for a particular law at the time it was introduced, but it does mean that they need to be willing to support it once it has been introduced. An example of that distinction would be drink driving legislation in the UK which has grown in popularity over time (and most people are now in favor of tougher limits).

    An obvious example of a law in the US that didn't have public support would be prohibition, where the introduction of the law resulted in increases in crime and disorder rather than the intended reductions. In the UK there was a relatively recent (or at least it seems that way to me :D) example of this sort of effect with the introduction of the Community Charge (generally known as Poll Tax). That was a locally administered tax introduced in 1990 to replace local property taxes. However, large numbers of people refused to pay and there were also civil disturbances - that led to the tax being replaced from 1993.

    I would expect similar effects to occur in the US if an attempt were made to ban guns outright, i.e. the cure would probably be worse than the disease and unlikely to last. However, there's no chance of such an attempt being made. That doesn't mean that no improvements in the current situation are possible, however. Several people have referred in this thread to the possibility of a ban on assault weapons. If that were backed by a properly funded government buyback scheme, together with provisions for continued use of weapons on licensed premises I think it would get support from a large majority of the public. There would undoubtedly still be a lot of opposition from a vociferous minority, but I think that could be overcome if it were clear the weight of public opinion were against them. At present a lot of the pressure to retain and increase numbers and types of guns is driven by lobbyists for the gun industry. It's quite conceivable to me that this activism could be ended quite quickly though. For instance both the following would have a big impact:

    1) All or nearly all politicians refuse political contributions.
    This is not a particularly far-fetched scenario if I'm correct about the weight of public opinion. Politicians are affected by that directly and also vulnerable to 'bandwagon' effects. It's quite possible in the current climate that just one or two politicians publicly refusing contributions could start the sort of chain reaction seen with 'Me Too' recently. Of course once a politician refuses contributions they will want to demonstrate how independent they are from pressure by their former contributors - which could lead them to be more radical than their own core beliefs would suggest.

    2) Use shareholder pressure.
    Some of the gun industry is privately owned, but much is also publicly traded stock. If major investors (like insurance companies and pension funds) all decided to sell their direct or indirect holdings in gun companies that would have a disastrous effect on the companies and force them to reconsider their priorities.
  • jjstraka34jjstraka34 Member Posts: 9,850
    Mueller continues to throw the book at Manafort, and appears to have flipped his #2. At this point, it seems like the only intent here is to make Manafort realize he is facing the rest of his life in a prison cell if he doesn't sing.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963

    Mueller continues to throw the book at Manafort, and appears to have flipped his #2. At this point, it seems like the only intent here is to make Manafort realize he is facing the rest of his life in a prison cell if he doesn't sing.

    Trump will pardon him if he gets any serious time. Because he believes he and his buddies and his corrupt family are above the law.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    If that happens, then New York state charges will be filed.
  • smeagolheartsmeagolheart Member Posts: 7,963
    joluv said:

    If that happens, then New York state charges will be filed.

    Great. There is probably stuff that they know about that he's done that they have not charged him with yet. They are holding back so they can spring it on him later once Trump pardons him. But that gives conservatives a talking point about how "that's all he's charged with??"

    The reality that he would be charged by the state of New York and the lack of any sentence so far are probably the only reasons he hasn't been pardoned already. With Sheriff Joe, he knew there were no pending state charges so Trump pardoned him before he was sentenced
  • MathsorcererMathsorcerer Member Posts: 3,037
    edited February 2018
    I doubt that. If Federal charges lead to a pardon which, in turn, leads to State charges, the State charges will be seen as being only politically motivated. That may also be justification for Mueller to be removed from his position as Special Investigator (or whatever his "official" job title is). Besides, I am uncertain if Federal crimes such as money laundering can be filed as a State charge--we would need a criminal attorney to address that question.

    Apparently there were *four* Broward County deputies already at the scene when Coral Springs PD arrived at the school, none of whom had entered the building(s) in an attempt to rescue hostages/survivors and/or engage the shooter. That is going to be a nightmare to untangle with accusations being made as to who was or was not in charge, what tactical decisions were or were not made, etc. Unfortunately, I don't think any answer any law enforcement agency gives is going to be sufficient or satisfactory to the parents of the victims--all they are going to see is that their child is dead while law enforcement stood by doing nothing. Whether that view is correct is irrelevant--in this instance the *perception* is what matters.
  • haidukhaiduk Member Posts: 19
    In Canada?

    Clueless prettyboy Trudeau is blowing the country's budget and keeps spending like crazy. All the millenials that voted for him will pay the price one day.
  • joluvjoluv Member Posts: 2,137
    I'm sure that some people would see state charges as being only politically motivated, but I'm equally sure that the same people already see the federal charges as being only politically motivated. From a political optics standpoint, I'd much rather be the party saying that Manafort should be held accountable for his crimes than the party saying "No fair! Trump already gave him a freebie!"

    A broad pardon would likely end Mueller's investigation, but he's been cooperating with the New York Attorney General, so investigative efforts could continue in some capacity.
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