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semiOverhaul for IWD2 (UPDATE!)

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  • FirecrowFirecrow Member Posts: 94
    edited April 2018

    I'm not changing turn undead or uncanny dodge stuff.

    My clumsy english hinder me again.) I asked about adding possibility to merge cleric and paladin caster levels and spell lists for multiclasses. How do you think, this is possible in principle?


    Everyone should be vulnerable to Disintegrate, which now does slashing damage.

    You mean this mechanics?


    Level 15-19: 2d8 slashing damage per level
    Level 20-24: 2d10 slashing damage per level
    Level 25-29: 2d12 slashing damage per level
    Level 30: 2d20 slashing damage per level

    I like it, but why did you choose slashing damage, not magic energy damage? This two types of damage for your new Desintegrate will be almost same in a terms of ingame efficiency, but magic damage looks little more logical for me, becouse BBoD does magic damage in IWD2. Or you changed BBoD to BG style slashing damage? What about spell resistance for new Desintegrate? Can new Desintegrate ignore Mirror Image like Finger of Death?


    Post edited by Firecrow on
    semiticgoddess
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Firecrow: I'll fix the descriptions.

    Maximized Attacks got changed because I was thinking about Maximized Attacks in regards to monks and realized that the feat was still pretty much useless, so I buffed Maximized Attacks and then replaced the fighter's free Maximized Attacks spells with a flat +1 bonus to damage every 5 levels.
    Firecrow
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Firecrow said:

    I'm not changing turn undead or uncanny dodge stuff.

    My clumsy english hinder me again.) I asked about adding possibility to merge cleric and paladin caster levels and spell lists for multiclasses. How do you think, this is possible in principle?
    You mean, allow a Paladin of Helm/Cleric of Helm use a single spellbook for both paladin and cleric spells? That would definitely be impossible.

    Black Blade of Disaster and Disintegrate will both deal slashing damage, since the spell is supposed to shred the target. Also, chunking the target will prevent Disintegrate from leaving an intact corpse. Spell resistance and Mirror Image will both block the spell.

    I can't change how Mirror Image works. It blocks damage and nothing else, so when I switch Disintegrate from an instant death effect to a damage effect, Mirror Image blocks the spell where it previously would not. I think this keeps the spell balanced in regards to Finger of Death and Flesh to Stone: Disintegrate is harder to resist and fewer critters are immune, but Finger of Death can pin down mages despite Finger of Death. Flesh to Stone can also bypass Mirror Image, but is the weakest of the three and can affect fewer critters than Disintegrate. This way, all three single-target instant death spells have a unique function.
    Firecrow
  • FirecrowFirecrow Member Posts: 94
    edited April 2018


    Maximized Attacks got changed because I was thinking about Maximized Attacks in regards to monks and realized that the feat was still pretty much useless, so I buffed Maximized Attacks and then replaced the fighter's free Maximized Attacks spells with a flat +1 bonus to damage every 5 levels.

    @semiticgod, I like new Maximized Attack mechanic, but whatever it has real meaning only for sole fighter or low level party. Becouse MA effects can be easy achieved by other methods. Luck or Chant spell + HoF Ned's amulet + lucky bard's song + EE spell gives much more powerful effect than MA, becouse better critical treat and longer duration. Also this combination can affect several chars and potentially can have several charges. This makes MA almost unnecessary. I think fighter need some other, more unique mechanic for MA. I don't know, is it possible to do, but i think critical damage immunity bypassing would be perfect for MA. Zombie hasn't vital organs, this is impossible to "kill" it by hit in heart or throat. But skilled fighter still have be able to chop off its head by one precise strike. Alternative variants of MA mechanics - additional critical hit modificator. Weapon double critical damage becomes triple, triple becomes quadriple. If this mechanics can't be implemented, "Maximized Defense" can be simple, but good replacement for MA. Unique for fighter (maybe barbarian deserves it too) critical damage immunity (temporal with charges or settable with some counterweight like Power Attack). Experienced warrior, survived in hundreds of deadly fights, must know how to protect his vulnerable and vital spots perfectly.
    Post edited by Firecrow on
    semiticgoddess
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Firecrow: No way to bypass critical hit immunity; that's set in creature files and there's no opcode to override it. For the same reasons, it's impossible to give a player character immunity to critical hits, or turn critical hit immunity for other critters on or off in-game. It's also not possible to increase critical hit ranges besides the normal, set ways (Keen effect on items, luck, the Executioner's Eyes opcode, the Improved Critical feat) and there's no way at all to increase critical hit multipliers.

    It's not possible to implement on-hit effects via anything but items or the Stunning Attack spell (which cannot be tweaked; the effects are parameter-independent). So, no instant death effects like decapitation for fighters only. Also not possible to rig items to limit on-hit effects to wielders who have fighter levels.

    I can, however, give them a custom innate spell that improves their defenses. I've considered giving non-spellcasting classes some spell-like abilities at higher levels, using some of the following spell icons (creating custom spell icons is tricky; the BAMs I can generate from BMPs are horribly distorted):

    Remove Fatigue (now the icon for Expeditious Retreat)
    Freedom of Movement
    Defensive Harmony
    Harm
    Shout
    Great Shout
    Executioner's Eyes
    Impervious Sanctity of Mind

    I might need to buff rangers. Currently all they have besides some nicer spells is Set Natural Snare, and while that's a really excellent spell in semiOverhaul, it's not as flashy as one would hope.
    Firecrow
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Firecrow: What do you think about a Maximized Attacks spell that lasts for 1 round per level, deals maximum damage per hit, and grants Executioner's Eyes at the cost of -4 AC?
  • FirecrowFirecrow Member Posts: 94
    edited April 2018

    What do you think about a Maximized Attacks spell that lasts for 1 round per level, deals maximum damage per hit, and grants Executioner's Eyes at the cost of -4 AC?

    @semiticgod, i think this will be better than previous variant, becouse it will be useful during whole game and for both normal/HoF modes. But it may be OP on low levels, needs some ingame testing to balance Concentration prerequisite.


    I can, however, give them a custom innate spell that improves their defenses. I've considered giving non-spellcasting classes some spell-like abilities at higher levels...

    Actually i don't like BG2ToB style warrior HLAs. It is looks something like this for me.)





    IWD2 style with special feat modes like Expertise and Power Attack, passive abilites like Dirty Fighting and Cleave not so bright, but a bit more realistic.






    I think no need to add many spell like abilites and other "slots" abilites. Rage and MA already enough for "true warrior" classes like Fighter and Barbi (Pal, Ranger and Monk something like an intermediate link between pure warriors and casters, i mean gameplay terms here). But I think it will be good to add more "mode" warrior abilities. We already have PA to trade accuracy for damage and Ex to trade accuracy for defense. Possibility to trade defense for both damage and to hit (or for extra attack maybe) is a logical addition for me.
    Post edited by Firecrow on
    StummvonBordwehr
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I finally figured out how to fix Stone to Flesh! It was foolishly set to work on living targets when petrification causes death (gray portrait and all) within seconds. In the next update, Stone to Flesh will work perfectly, whether it comes from the spell or the scrolls.

    I've also rigged all forms of death magic to inflict non-permanent deaths. Losing characters permanently to petrification or Finger of Death or Disintegrate is no fun. Now, all three forms of instant effects can be fixed with Stone to Flesh, Raise Dead, and Resurrection.
    FirecrowContemplative_Hamster
  • Contemplative_HamsterContemplative_Hamster Member Posts: 844
    This is making me want to play IWD2 for the first time in 15 years. Keep up the good work!
    semiticgoddessFirecrowDjinnStummvonBordwehr
  • FirecrowFirecrow Member Posts: 94

    What do you think about a Maximized Attacks spell that lasts for 1 round per level, deals maximum damage per hit, and grants Executioner's Eyes at the cost of -4 AC?

    @semiticgod, this is only for fighter levels, or other warrior levels counts too?

  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Firecrow: I'm pretty sure innate spells operate using total level, not the level of any one class, just like in other games. Only spells from spellbooks can be tied to a specific class level.
  • FirecrowFirecrow Member Posts: 94
    edited April 2018
    @semiticgod, did you forget that paladin Lay on Hands, Smite, domain abilites, special Monk abilites strongly depend from specific class levels too?) Only innate race abilites depends from chars levels. If your new MA works like race abilites, i think you must do it more costly, becouse it will be op in multiclassed druid, paladin or monk hands.

    Post edited by Firecrow on
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Firecrow: I'm not sure how else to balance it, since 1 round per level is the lowest it can scale. What if I removed the Executioner's Eyes effect?

    As for monks, I could always change their fist damage by level.
  • FirecrowFirecrow Member Posts: 94
    edited April 2018
    @semiticgod, EE effect normal i think. No need to nerf MA ability, need to do its gain little more difficult for everyone exept highlevel fighter. Maybe minimum Constitution prerequisite? Or three specialisations?
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Firecrow: Feat requirements can't be edited. I can edit the table that determines them, but the game doesn't appear to read the file.
    Firecrow
  • FirecrowFirecrow Member Posts: 94
    edited April 2018
    @semiticgod, can you add a casting block for MA? Like for TT?
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Firecrow: What's a casting block?
  • FirecrowFirecrow Member Posts: 94
    edited April 2018
    @semiticgod, i mean temporally impossibility to casting spells. Like for Tenser's Transformation or druid shapeshifting. At least it will do MA less attractive for casters. But MA will be very op for rogue with sOh luck buff whatever. Also I think Barkskin must be added to Ranger spell list. This will make Ranger more valuable for parties without druid. And maybe Iron Skins will be good addition to druid spell. This will not do sOhed druid notably stronger, but this will do druid's spell progression a bit more logical. Even in vanilla druid has many different spells, which can change the form of stone, wood and metal. But somehow druid missed Iron Skins spell, which less skilled in magic Ranger has.
    Post edited by Firecrow on
    semiticgoddess
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Firecrow: I've never been a big fan of disabling spellcasting because it can't be toggled and higher-level spells last longer, which can make them even more user-unfriendly as the spell ostensibly grows stronger. That's why I changed Vipergout to merely impose a 50% spell failure rate and gave Iron Body a -6 casting speed penalty in place of the 80% spell failure (I can't remove spell failure from Tenser's Transformation and replicate the other effects perfectly). Disabling spellcasting entirely doesn't make much sense to me conceptually unless you're shapeshifted and don't have opposable thumbs or vocal cords.

    You know, if I wanted to resort to some weird modding shenanigans and add some new stuff to CLAB files, I could rig Maximized Attacks and similar spells to have different effects on different characters. But multi-classes wouldn't get uniformly affected. For instance, I could rig MA to cast two spells, one which lasts 4 rounds and one which lasts 1 round per level (and erases the previous one), and then make all non-warrior classes immune to the second one. But that would mean that even a single rogue level would make a fighter incapable of gaining the full benefit of MA.

    I thought rangers already got Barkskin. I'll add it in.

    I'd rather keep Iron Skins off of druids since Stoneskin makes more sense conceptually, and having both would be kind of redundant. I guess I could make Iron Skins a level 6 spell for druids, and maybe buff it a little to compensate. Either way, I'll make sure rangers and druids either both have it or neither of them have it.

    I might make Iron Skins into a different kind of spell. Maybe a flat damage reduction for a set period of time instead of letting it vanish after X number of hits? Or I could make Stoneskin work just like Iron Skins, which is more akin to how things work in 2nd edition. Unfortunately, I can't tweak it more than that; I can't keep +5 weapons from going right through Stoneskin (unless I patched all +5 weapons to be +4, I guess) or make either Stoneskin or Iron Skins block anything but 10 damage per hit. Not unless I replace them with a flat, unbreakable DR that applies no matter how many times the target is hit.

    How do you feel about making Stoneskin an on-self spell only? That would discourage the player from spending extra rounds before fights buffing everyone in the party with Stoneskin, and encourage people to memorize other level 4 spells.

    In general, I don't like the idea of encouraging people to memorize a bunch of buffing spells instead of trying out new offensive spells, so I might also change Mage Armor so it grants a party-wide +1 to AC and Spirit Armor to give a party-wide +2 to AC. At lower levels, there aren't enough spell slots for people to cover everyone with these spells, but at high levels, burning 6 level 1 mage spell slots costs nothing but time.
    Firecrow
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Firecrow: By the way, I really appreciate your extensive input on all of this. It's been very informative and very helpful. I'll make a point of including you in the credits for future versions of this mod.
    FirecrowStummvonBordwehr
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I think I've figured out how to keep Mage Armor, Ghost Armor, and Spirit Armor from becoming tedious buffing spells. They all are area-effect, and to make them more balanced and more interesting, Mage Armor gives a +1 bonus to AC and Will saves for 3 rounds per level, Ghost Armor gives a +2 bonus to AC and Reflex saves for 2 rounds per level, and Spirit Armor gives a +3 bonus to AC and Fortitude saves for 1 round per level. Now that Emotion: Hope and Emotion: Rage only last 10 rounds and other mage buffs are also short-lasting, this will give an incentive to cast buffing spells during combat instead of before.
    Firecrow
  • AWizardDidItAWizardDidIt Member Posts: 197
    I think I'm going to start IWD2 soon and I like the changes you've made so I'm going to play with them. I'll let you know of my experiences!
    Firecrowsemiticgoddess
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @AWizardDidIt: I'll post an update sometime today. That should include all of the changes I've discussed, plus an important bugfix for bards.
    FirecrowAWizardDidIt
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I've just posted the update. Among lots of other improvements, monk fist damage scales much more logically:

    Level 1: 1d6
    Level 4: 1d8
    Level 8: 1d8+1
    Level 10: 1d8+2
    Level 12: 1d8+3
    Level 13: 1d8+3, deals triple damage on critical hits
    Level 16: 1d8+4
    Level 21: 1d8+5
    Level 26: 1d8+5, strikes as a keen weapon (+1 to critical threat rolls)
    FirecrowGusinda
  • FirecrowFirecrow Member Posts: 94
    edited May 2018
    @semiticgod, sorry, I was busy (and will be busy until the middle of next week), could not write proper answer.

    I've never been a big fan of disabling spellcasting because it can't be toggled and higher-level spells last longer, which can make them even more user-unfriendly as the spell ostensibly grows stronger.

    This is more for balance terms, not roleplaing or gameplay. Spellcasters in almost all PC D&D games noticeably stronger than pure warriors. This is not problem actually, if warriors have their separate niche of close-in fighting (like in classic IWD1). But in IWD:EE, BG2, ToB, vanilla IWD2 casters actually stronger than warriors in melee combat and tanking too. FTGJ the strongest selfcasting battle buffs must have some difficulties with using, caster must at least think twice before using such spells. Also Potions of Magic Dispelling or dispel scrolls can be used for emergency returning of spellcasting ability even in solo.


    That's why I changed Vipergout to merely impose a 50% spell failure rate and gave Iron Body a -6 casting speed penalty in place of the 80% spell failure (I can't remove spell failure from Tenser's Transformation and replicate the other effects perfectly). Disabling spellcasting entirely doesn't make much sense to me conceptually unless you're shapeshifted and don't have opposable thumbs or vocal cords.

    Сaster has his gullet and mouth kind stuffed with a snake, vevy diffclt t sy smthin, verbl spll cmpt impsbl, mmmm... [spit out a viper].) Actually I don't sure about Vg. This is excellent spell even in vanilla, I easily prevailed in many difficult fights with only this spell and spear, without other spellcasting. With extra spellcasting ability it definitely became op. I think it must be moved on 8th level. And maybe adds some debuff on fighting abilites, becouse a constant fits of vomiting and chokes. How -6 casting speed actually works? It can do a duration of casting more than round? Or make only quick spells slower?


    I might make Iron Skins into a different kind of spell. Maybe a flat damage reduction for a set period of time instead of letting it vanish after X number of hits? Or I could make Stoneskin work just like Iron Skins, which is more akin to how things work in 2nd edition. Unfortunately, I can't tweak it more than that; I can't keep +5 weapons from going right through Stoneskin (unless I patched all +5 weapons to be +4, I guess) or make either Stoneskin or Iron Skins block anything but 10 damage per hit. Not unless I replace them with a flat, unbreakable DR that applies no matter how many times the target is hit.

    You already did something from this?) If not yet, I have a couple of considerations. I think no needs many changes here. Max 8 layers for IS rather weak, maybe BG/IWD1 numbers will be more balanced. But no needs flat resistance for IS and Ss, becouse we already has Aegis with this effect, Iron Body spell, enforced barbarian resistance, new druid's forms resistances, and optional armor resistance from one of EoU components. Stacking this effects don't do char invincible, but only strongest mobs can hurt him badly enough. I think tanking must not be easy, at least player must often casting something to keep his level of protection. Stoneskin more handle than IS, it can be used for support of tanks and summons. And actually Ss saves slots for more control/damage spells. Player can use only one high resistive summon like a Boneguard with extra Ss protection for a long time (l don't sure, but looks like Ss hp pool spents only after overcome of natural damage resistance) instead many summoning or healing spells. Iron Skins has higher spell level, long casting time, selfcasting only, but it helps against Slayer-Knights and other +5 armed mobs. Also it helps against piercing/slashing/bludgeoning spell damage and special weapon damage (like "doom edged, 1-10 slashing damage") unlike Ss. And Iron Skins may be combined with Damage Reduction items like Cornugon Hide Armor. I think that this difference between Ss and IS better to keep.


    In general, I don't like the idea of encouraging people to memorize a bunch of buffing spells instead of trying out new offensive spells.

    I like the sound of it. Actually I prefer solo druid more often than other setups becouse limited selection of buffs too.)
    Post edited by Firecrow on
    semiticgoddess
  • FirecrowFirecrow Member Posts: 94

    @Firecrow: By the way, I really appreciate your extensive input on all of this. It's been very informative and very helpful. I'll make a point of including you in the credits for future versions of this mod.

    @semiticgod, thanks, I feel very flattered. *^_^*
    semiticgoddess
  • FirecrowFirecrow Member Posts: 94
    edited April 2018

    I've just posted the update. Among lots of other improvements, monk fist damage scales much more logically:

    Actually I like IWD2 style monk more than BG2 monks in particular for realisation of monk's unarmed attack in IWD2.) Becouse bad to hit ability of his fist, vanilla IWD2 monk uses weapon more often than bare hands and this adds some sense of realism. Even the most skillful martial artist will take a weapon into real fight. Reach the enemy with a sword always easier than with punch or kick.
    BG2 style fighting monk:



    Real warrior monk from Earth's boring history:



    Monks at medieval wars:





    IWD2 monk look very similar. Becouse he can wear armor (with some LoS ones or with EoU armor component it can be really useful), can use bows, polearm weapons, etc.
    And vanilla IWD2 style monk's high bare hands damage (compared with basic weapon damage i mean) has some logic too. It can be more easily to fall heavily armored hobgoblin on the ground and jugulate him, or break his neck, than to pierce his armor with sword.

    All of the above are only mine own taste. I think most of people will like your new variant of monk's fists more than vanilla. And of course nobody perceive monk as a warrior in armor.)
    Post edited by Firecrow on
    DjinnStummvonBordwehr
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Firecrow: The -6 penalty to casting speed can in fact make a spell take over a whole round to cast. Thus, a spell with a casting time of 9 will take 10.5 seconds to cast instead of 7.

    About Iron Skins: what if we slightly increased the number of skins granted?
    Firecrow
  • FirecrowFirecrow Member Posts: 94
    edited April 2018
    @semiticgod, I think 15 layers on level 30 must be enough.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited May 2018
    Just posted a new update, which notably fixes the save DC's for various spells, including vanilla bugs like an erroneously low save DC for Symbol spells. Also some other changes and fixes I don't remember.
    Firecrow
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