That's interesting, thanks. So would you say that a random elf and a random drow, brought up in the exact same environment, have the same chance to be good or evil enclined? same question with an orc/goblin raised in exact same environment. Or in other words: is racial prejudice, for the above races/species, something entirely normal and justified in FR, neither good nor bad, or is it bad?
They have the exact same odds, yes.
That said, it's still kind of justified, since for the most part, the drow and orcs and their sorts do end up evil. It's good to be careful
Which is basically a sort of eugenism to select the most naturally evil within the race, which if true, means that any drow adult would have shown in its nature, an aptitude to evilness beyond average.
Again, none of them is evil by nature. Some of them show kindness because, well, it's what people sometimes do. The drow just punish children for it, so they don't show it for long.
Yeah. But they're goblins, not people. I was not aware goblins could live peacefully without raiding and basically scavenging on others, realing in cruelty.
They could. Once again, the Icewind Dale game contains a few decent ones.
This statement says it all. It is rationalization for racism. You claim to want the drow dead because of their 'Evil'. You care not one bit if they actually are evil or act evil in any, or even if they are an active threat to anyone. And you don't kill others that are manifestly evil, even those who actively attempt to recruit you to murder someone. Therefore you want the Drow dead due to racism and no other reason. Pure and simple. QED.
Let me re-phrase this: when placed into such a situation, I will have a tendency in FR to show less mercy/tolerance for a drow than for a human, of equal (evil in this case) alignment, on the basis of racial prejudice. Absolutely.
@the_spyder: are you trying to say humans, eleves, dwarves etc.... should not have racial prejudice vs drows? or orcs? why would you say such a thing??
1) You claim that you want Viconia dead because she is Evil. 2) You determine that she is evil for no other fact than the color of her skin 3) You do not witness her performing any evil 4) She is no active threat to you or others 5) You witness others who admit and claim to be evil and are an ACTIVE threat to you or others (Dynaheira). 6) You witness others ACTING evil and don't kill them on sight 7) Therefore it isn't the EVIL that you want Viconia dead for. It has to be her race.
To summarize, if you claim you are against "Evil" and yet don't treat all evil the same way, then it isn't the evil that you are against.
1/ no I never said I wanted Viconia dead nor that I wanted to kill her because she is evil. I said I felt it to be the right choice, when put in that situation of either her or the FF guy, to chose to kill her because of her race. 2/ it's got notjhing to do witht he color of her skin but with the fact that i recognize her as a drow (and am being told so) 3/ that's right, but she is under arrest 4/ but she might cause me to fight a guy 5/ yep 6/ not always killing them on sight; it will depend each time 7/ again I do not want her dead; I am forced to chose who to kill and I chose her because of her race
And I am asking you the question: why would a human/elf/dwarf/etc... not be racially-prejudiced vs drows in FR? that seems like a normal and very justifiable behaviour. Don't you agree?
1. You have stated that you believe Drow should be killed. Therefore, 1 is YES, not no. 2. Color of skin = race in this instance 3. She isn't under arrest. Flaming Fists are not police. They are mercenaries. And he isn't trying to bring her in, he is trying to murder her with no trial and no chance to acquit herself. 4. You have no idea that you will have no choice but to fight the other guy. Sure, she might be asking you to do that, but without meta-gaming, you have no clue that it will irrevocably come to that. 5. nuff said. 6. Edwin tells you he plans on murdering Dynaheira. He is an ACTIVE evil threat. If you won't take action against him, but will take action against someone who is no active threat to anyone, it isn't situational, it is prejudice. Pure and simple. 7. Again, you are not given the choice of killing the Drow or killing the Flaming fist. You are given the choice of standing and doing nothing while a Drow (or anyone for that matter) is killed with no trial and while protesting their innocence but without any attempt to hear them out, or to try and negotiate. Unless you meta-game, you have no proof that attempting to negotiate will lead to the killing of the flaming fist. Also, you have the flaming fist attempting to kill someone and someone trying to stop them. Who is the more active (apparent) evil?
A human/elf/dwarf might not have prejudices because they have a brain?
The game designers developed a pretty clear theme on drow being redeemable and force that choice on you specifically with Solaufein. The other good NPCs are not happy if you kill him (voicing their views before and after). It is obvious that it is written so that good characters will not kill him but will grant him mercy and help him escape. This is further reinforced (if it wasn't completely obvious by the text and the NPC feedback) by the fact that a good character gets their best case justice against the evil drow when they have mercy on him.
Anyone who thinks drow should simply be killed has to at least acknowledge that the game developers explicitely put in a different message. (I think they put the same message in with Viconia and did it twice for good measure as well).
That's interesting, thanks. So would you say that a random elf and a random drow, brought up in the exact same environment, have the same chance to be good or evil enclined? same question with an orc/goblin raised in exact same environment. Or in other words: is racial prejudice, for the above races/species, something entirely normal and justified in FR, neither good nor bad, or is it bad?
I would say that, largely, yes, mistrusting drow should be natural to most people in Faerun, and it isn't racism so much as common sense. That is, MISTRUST is acceptable, not open hostility. If a drow is walking around in daylight, they are likely no threat to you or anybody else unless provoked. Their most powerful equipment would either be dust or disenchanted, and they are in a weakened state and no doubt a desperate renegade like Viconia.
As to raising an elf and dark elf in the same conditions, both are equally likely to make their own choices and develop their alignment accordingly. The drow child would face hardships, however, and may turn to Evil simply because he/she feels it is the only way to survive. All things being equal, though, the drow could easily end up Lawful Good while the elf goes Chaotic Evil.
"The most distinctive feature of drow, however, is the touch of Lolth upon them. Just as Corellon cursed them and made them vulnerable to light, the Spider Queen gave the drow a blessing to counteract this, giving the drow a power over darkness that other races lack. This power can manifest in several ways. The most common being the ability to shroud enemies in magical, impenetrable darkness, usually called Globe of Darkness, or a debilitating charm called faerie fire that makes a creature an easier target[1], encasing them in something that looks like purple fire, though causing no harm."
Which talks about a cruse, and then a touch of Lolth to the race as an innate ability. Lolth being an evil God.
The drow have a lot of powers, yes, but how much of that is from Underdark radiation and how much of it came from Lolth differs based on the setting and who is writing a given book or game. Moreover, blessings from gods do not inherently drive the motivations of their recipients. To use Obould Many-Arrows as another example, he received a blessing from Gruumsh, a Chaotic Evil deity of destruction, and yet Obould wants to conquer and build upon, rather than destroy.
"From birth, drow are taught they are superior to other races and should crush those beneath them. Children who resist and show kindness or love are brutally punished, so as to drive the instinct of cruelty into them"
Which is basically a sort of eugenism to select the most naturally evil within the race, which if true, means that any drow adult would have shown in its nature, an aptitude to evilness beyond average.
An aptitude that they learned by being part of drow society, where you either do or die. The key word here is "taught." It's a societal thing, a learned behavior. Mortal babies are True Neutral, if they can even be considered to qualify for an alignment at all.
Yes that could be the goal especially in a BG context. I never mean that it is systematic.
Right, but you're suggesting that it is both Lawful and Good to kill goblin babies. It isn't.
Sure. But sometimes... how many good-aligned characters in BG are forced to free a child-killer? all those who suceeed in the game.
Explain. I don't recall ever freeing any child killers.
I did not know neither of these where posibilities.
They're not easy, but they're certainly possible, especially having the goblin pups raised in a civilized society. They'd probably be a little pack of hellions at times, because instincts are instincts, but I'd say it could be done.
Yeah. But they're goblins, not people. I was not aware goblins could live peacefully without raiding and basically scavenging on others, realing in cruelty.
They must do those things to survive because they don't have the kind of land or technology they need to do anything else. Before humans mastered agriculture, they were no better. The problem for goblins is that everybody is either smarter than they are, stronger than they are, or both. They can't evolve socially because there is no room and they breed so fast. Even if goblins knew how to farm they'd probably be run off or slaughtered if they tried to settle any fertile ground, or they wouldn't be able to grow enough to feed everybody, so they live in caves and raid and scavenge instead. I'm not suggesting goblins are innocent victims, but they don't exactly have many options.
Absolutely, there is a BIG difference between mistrusting someone and flat out killing them on sight (or allowing them to be killed on sight while you watch).
They must do those things to survive because they don't have the kind of land or technology they need to do anything else. Before humans mastered agriculture, they were no better. The problem for goblins is that everybody is either smarter than they are, stronger than they are, or both. They can't evolve socially because there is no room and they breed so fast. Even if goblins knew how to farm they'd probably be run off or slaughtered if they tried to settle any fertile ground, or they wouldn't be able to grow enough to feed everybody, so they live in caves and raid and scavenge instead. I'm not suggesting goblins are innocent victims, but they don't exactly have many options.
This is one of the reasons I don't like the concept that goblins/orcs aren't evil. They are reduced to a creature we pity like gollum in LOTR. They should be creatures we fear.
@UnknownQuantity We fear what we don't understand or don't know much about. The unknown. If something can be studied, then the fear can be reduced.
Even if the orcs/goblins/drow were not redeemable, we would still not fear them, since we know stuff about them. And by the way, I think that anything with rational thought, can be reasoned with and redeemed.
The only way for things to not be redeemable, is to be either mindless (undead) or insane, though, those need to be healed or treated. The problem is how easily can they be redeemed? A being that is centuries or millennia (demons) old would be pretty hard to be redeemed.
What's the best way to turn a usually evil creature to good? Raise it properly with guidance. Drizzt didn't become good after a few centuries of life, he became good since his father was not a total bastard and taught him some morals, I think.
That's why you shouldn't kill babies of drow/orc/goblins. Because they're practically True Neutral when they are born. And I doubt that there's an entry in the Monster Manuals about Orc Babies, since it would be pretty sick, having them statted to be killed for xp.
@Ignatius If you kill potentially evil babies, then you are also killing potentially good babies. You're basically killing everything just to be sure. That's Evil. Killing innocents is evil. Innocents are those that did nothing wrong. Babies did nothing wrong, so they are innocent, which makes killing them evil. Simple as that.
@UnknownQuantity We fear what we don't understand or don't know much about. The unknown. If something can be studied, then the fear can be reduced.
Even if the orcs/goblins/drow were not redeemable, we would still not fear them. And by the way, I think that anything with rational thought, can be reasoned with and redeemed.
The only way for things to not be redeemable, is to be either mindless (undead) or insane, though, those need to be healed or treated. The problem is how easily can they be redeemed? A being that is centuries or millennia (demons) old would be pretty hard to be redeemed.
What's the best way to turn a usually evil creature to good? Raise it properly with guidance. Drizzt didn't become good after a few centuries of life, he became good since his father was not a total bastard and taught him some morals, I think.
That's why you shouldn't kill babies of drow/orc/goblins. Because they're practically True Neutral when they are born. And I doubt that there's an entry in the Monster Manuals about Orc Babies, since it would be pretty sick, having them statted to be killed for xp.
@Ignatius If you kill potentially evil babies, then you are also killing potentially good babies. You're basically killing everything just to be sure. That's Evil. Killing innocents is evil. Innocents are those that did nothing wrong. Babies did nothing wrong, so they are innocent, which makes killing them evil. Simple as that.
Again I reiterate that having all creatures have the potential for good ruins them. The fact we are talking about orc babies is already demeaning a great evil warrior race that is feared by many or should be IMO. It's sad when everything has to broken down this way. Even in a fantasy world made up for escapism.
@UnknownQuantity That's not Forgotten Realms, sorry. And it's not changing anytime to something that boring, in my opinion. FR is not supposed to be a silly world where people kill stuff for fun. It's an alternate world with it's own religion, politics, cultures and races. That's immersive.
And to agree with the people above, Flaming Fist mercenaries are just that, *mercenaries*. They are not Paladins, they're not soldiers, they're not knights or police. They are mercenaries of a company. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Flaming_Fist They became police and guard of Baldur's Gate around a century later after the BG events? Not sure, though you meet Eltan and he became a Duke in the 1370s.
They're also Lawful Neutral, not Good. So one of their orders could be "Kill all drow on sight and bring us their heads. We'll give you gold." Just because they wear fancy armor and call themselves whatever, doesn't make them Paladins or forces of good or right.
@UnknownQuantity That's not Forgotten Realms, sorry. And it's not changing anytime to something that boring, in my opinion. FR is not supposed to be a silly world where people kill stuff for fun. It's an alternate world with it's own religion, politics, cultures and races. That's immersive.
And to agree with the people above, Flaming Fist mercenaries are just that, *mercenaries*. They are not Paladins, they're not soldiers, they're not knights or police. They are mercenaries of a company. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Flaming_Fist They became police and guard of Baldur's Gate around a century later after the BG events? Not sure, though you meet Eltan and he became a Duke in the 1370s.
They're also Lawful Neutral, not Good. So one of their orders could be "Kill all drow on sight and bring us their heads. We'll give you gold." Just because they wear fancy armor and call themselves whatever, doesn't make them Paladins or forces of good or right.
I don't really see how that is immersive. We already have that in the real world. Thinking on these type of topics is actually quite tedious and boring. They are an ongoing mishmash of ideas that no one agrees on. Basically that is life. There is no right or wrong. In a game that doesn't have to be the case. That is why it is great and it can be immersive. I think the forgotten realms is whatever you want it to be. I certainly never saw it the way you do. I don't think that invalidates the way I look at it or use it.
I don't really see how that is immersive. We already have that in the real world. Thinking on these type of topics is actually quite tedious and boring. They are an ongoing mishmash of ideas that no one agrees on. Basically that is life. There is no right or wrong. In a game that doesn't have to be the case. That is why it is great and it can be immersive. I think the forgotten realms is whatever you want it to be. I certainly never saw it the way you do. I don't think that invalidates the way I look at it or use it.
Wait... what?
Are you trying to say that having a world with depth and layers = less immersive? And here I thought a world is more believable when there's actually something to chew on.
Isn't that why people love LOTR, Harry Potter, ASOIAF, Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, etc. so much? Because the characters and/or world has depth and complex enough for you to be lost in if you so choose? Like @Archaos mentioned, each of those worlds have religion, politics, cultures, histories, etc. that makes them believable as an alternative universe. The fact that those factors can be compared to real life things are what makes them believable. The moral dilemmas, the empathy or hate you feel for characters, imagining how it'll be to live in that world, the thought-provoking subject matter, character flaws, etc. All of those internalizing factors are what make the world intriguing.
It's like comparing those aforementioned universes with something mindlessly shallow like the ones Hollywood likes to pump out nowadays like Transformers, Avatar, etc. Sure you can get immersed in the visuals, but the core of those universes are ultimately so shallow that it never truly sucks you in on a deeper level. It can be fun watching the boy-scout good guy win against the demonized bad guy, but it's the ones with more complicated characters/stories that gets people hooked.
Or in comic books, there's a reason why Spider-Man is so popular - he's relatable. Most of his issues are tied to real life crap. People can empathize with him and that's why people like him. Or compare one of his antagonists like the Lizard as opposed to someone like the Shocker. Since i'm on the subject of comic books... lets just compare the Watchmen, the Walking Dead, etc. to some of the more "kiddie" stuff.
I mean those things may not interest you and you're entitled to your opinion, but to say it's less immersive because it parallels real life kind of makes me go: HUH?
@Ignatius I have FINALLY found an official source that states the number of Eilistraeen Drow from Ed Greenwood himself, creator of the Forgotten Realms:
"Here's Ed's answer: ...Many, many drow long to return to the surface and live among trees (it's a race instinct, that some recognize for what it is - - whereas other drow just feel always unsettled and edgy, and usually turn this into fighting amongst themselves, and family and/or trading rivalries), and Eilistraee has far more worshippers than the drow who dwell under the firm influence of Vhaeraun or Lolth (who is by far the most powerful of drow deities) would have one believe.
I'd say a little more than 22% or so of all drow in Faerûn worship Eilistraee..."
I don't really see how that is immersive. We already have that in the real world. Thinking on these type of topics is actually quite tedious and boring. They are an ongoing mishmash of ideas that no one agrees on. Basically that is life. There is no right or wrong. In a game that doesn't have to be the case. That is why it is great and it can be immersive. I think the forgotten realms is whatever you want it to be. I certainly never saw it the way you do. I don't think that invalidates the way I look at it or use it.
Um: im·mer·sion /iˈmərZHən/ Noun
1.The action of immersing someone or something in a liquid. 2.Deep mental involvement:"
Deep mental involvement. How can one be immersed/involved into a world? By making it believable and relatable. How is it made relatable? By not having a silly black and white world where it has nothing to do with how we are.
In order that we get immersed into it, we must have common grounds with it and imagining how it would be like to live there. That's not possible with mindless black and white, one-dimensional characters that go "I am the good guy! I will smite you!" and "Mwahaha! I'm an evil wizard and I like doing evil things because... EVIL! Mwahaha!"
That's retarded, that's not relatable, that's not immersive, that's a boring, fairy-tale world for kids and not for mature adults that want something more serious and involving. And it's not Forgotten Realms.
Even Harry Potter which is supposedly a book series for younger audiences, is more relatable and believable than that. Having one-dimensional characters is a bad thing because the only way for this to be possible, is to be retarded or be mindless.
The Baldur's Gate series are praised for not having such stupid characters and ones that are actually interesting. It's the easiest thing in the world to make cliche characters.
Late addition: the Forgotten Realms setting has it's own lore about most stuff. It's not what you want it to be. That's a homebrew/houseruled campaign *based* on Forgotten Realms.
There is room to add your stuff but if you change existing lore and you want to add pink dragons that shoot rainbows from their mouths, then it's no longer Forgotten Realms.
This is one of the reasons I don't like the concept that goblins/orcs aren't evil. They are reduced to a creature we pity like gollum in LOTR. They should be creatures we fear.
Don't mistake my reasoning for some kind of orc/goblin pity party. Even if they are evil because their quality of life sucks, they are still generally Evil-aligned (Chaotic Evil for orcs, Neutral Evil for goblins, IIRC) because they do cruel, sadistic things and harm innocent people. They are largely still threats to civilized areas simply by virtue of not being civilized. I was only asserting that they were turned to evil out of circumstance, and not out of some inherent drive to be bad guys, and thus a goblin infant is as innocent as any other infant.
Comments
That said, it's still kind of justified, since for the most part, the drow and orcs and their sorts do end up evil. It's good to be careful This one would be the Darkness, Faerie Fire, and a few other things the drow have. Nothing of cursing them to evil. Again, none of them is evil by nature. Some of them show kindness because, well, it's what people sometimes do. The drow just punish children for it, so they don't show it for long. You are a thinking human being. They are always a possibility. They could. Once again, the Icewind Dale game contains a few decent ones.
@the_spyder: are you trying to say humans, eleves, dwarves etc.... should not have racial prejudice vs drows? or orcs? why would you say such a thing??
Let me re-phrase.
1) You claim that you want Viconia dead because she is Evil.
2) You determine that she is evil for no other fact than the color of her skin
3) You do not witness her performing any evil
4) She is no active threat to you or others
5) You witness others who admit and claim to be evil and are an ACTIVE threat to you or others (Dynaheira).
6) You witness others ACTING evil and don't kill them on sight
7) Therefore it isn't the EVIL that you want Viconia dead for. It has to be her race.
To summarize, if you claim you are against "Evil" and yet don't treat all evil the same way, then it isn't the evil that you are against.
The logic is irrefutable.
2/ it's got notjhing to do witht he color of her skin but with the fact that i recognize her as a drow (and am being told so)
3/ that's right, but she is under arrest
4/ but she might cause me to fight a guy
5/ yep
6/ not always killing them on sight; it will depend each time
7/ again I do not want her dead; I am forced to chose who to kill and I chose her because of her race
And I am asking you the question: why would a human/elf/dwarf/etc... not be racially-prejudiced vs drows in FR? that seems like a normal and very justifiable behaviour. Don't you agree?
2. Color of skin = race in this instance
3. She isn't under arrest. Flaming Fists are not police. They are mercenaries. And he isn't trying to bring her in, he is trying to murder her with no trial and no chance to acquit herself.
4. You have no idea that you will have no choice but to fight the other guy. Sure, she might be asking you to do that, but without meta-gaming, you have no clue that it will irrevocably come to that.
5. nuff said.
6. Edwin tells you he plans on murdering Dynaheira. He is an ACTIVE evil threat. If you won't take action against him, but will take action against someone who is no active threat to anyone, it isn't situational, it is prejudice. Pure and simple.
7. Again, you are not given the choice of killing the Drow or killing the Flaming fist. You are given the choice of standing and doing nothing while a Drow (or anyone for that matter) is killed with no trial and while protesting their innocence but without any attempt to hear them out, or to try and negotiate. Unless you meta-game, you have no proof that attempting to negotiate will lead to the killing of the flaming fist. Also, you have the flaming fist attempting to kill someone and someone trying to stop them. Who is the more active (apparent) evil?
A human/elf/dwarf might not have prejudices because they have a brain?
Anyone who thinks drow should simply be killed has to at least acknowledge that the game developers explicitely put in a different message. (I think they put the same message in with Viconia and did it twice for good measure as well).
As to raising an elf and dark elf in the same conditions, both are equally likely to make their own choices and develop their alignment accordingly. The drow child would face hardships, however, and may turn to Evil simply because he/she feels it is the only way to survive. All things being equal, though, the drow could easily end up Lawful Good while the elf goes Chaotic Evil. The drow have a lot of powers, yes, but how much of that is from Underdark radiation and how much of it came from Lolth differs based on the setting and who is writing a given book or game. Moreover, blessings from gods do not inherently drive the motivations of their recipients. To use Obould Many-Arrows as another example, he received a blessing from Gruumsh, a Chaotic Evil deity of destruction, and yet Obould wants to conquer and build upon, rather than destroy. An aptitude that they learned by being part of drow society, where you either do or die. The key word here is "taught." It's a societal thing, a learned behavior. Mortal babies are True Neutral, if they can even be considered to qualify for an alignment at all. Right, but you're suggesting that it is both Lawful and Good to kill goblin babies. It isn't. Explain. I don't recall ever freeing any child killers. They're not easy, but they're certainly possible, especially having the goblin pups raised in a civilized society. They'd probably be a little pack of hellions at times, because instincts are instincts, but I'd say it could be done. They must do those things to survive because they don't have the kind of land or technology they need to do anything else. Before humans mastered agriculture, they were no better. The problem for goblins is that everybody is either smarter than they are, stronger than they are, or both. They can't evolve socially because there is no room and they breed so fast. Even if goblins knew how to farm they'd probably be run off or slaughtered if they tried to settle any fertile ground, or they wouldn't be able to grow enough to feed everybody, so they live in caves and raid and scavenge instead. I'm not suggesting goblins are innocent victims, but they don't exactly have many options.
She is worth saving. Thanks.
@UnknownQuantity
We fear what we don't understand or don't know much about. The unknown.
If something can be studied, then the fear can be reduced.
Even if the orcs/goblins/drow were not redeemable, we would still not fear them, since we know stuff about them.
And by the way, I think that anything with rational thought, can be reasoned with and redeemed.
The only way for things to not be redeemable, is to be either mindless (undead) or insane, though, those need to be healed or treated.
The problem is how easily can they be redeemed? A being that is centuries or millennia (demons) old would be pretty hard to be redeemed.
What's the best way to turn a usually evil creature to good? Raise it properly with guidance.
Drizzt didn't become good after a few centuries of life, he became good since his father was not a total bastard and taught him some morals, I think.
That's why you shouldn't kill babies of drow/orc/goblins. Because they're practically True Neutral when they are born. And I doubt that there's an entry in the Monster Manuals about Orc Babies, since it would be pretty sick, having them statted to be killed for xp.
@Ignatius
If you kill potentially evil babies, then you are also killing potentially good babies. You're basically killing everything just to be sure. That's Evil. Killing innocents is evil. Innocents are those that did nothing wrong. Babies did nothing wrong, so they are innocent, which makes killing them evil. Simple as that.
That's not Forgotten Realms, sorry. And it's not changing anytime to something that boring, in my opinion.
FR is not supposed to be a silly world where people kill stuff for fun. It's an alternate world with it's own religion, politics, cultures and races. That's immersive.
And to agree with the people above, Flaming Fist mercenaries are just that, *mercenaries*. They are not Paladins, they're not soldiers, they're not knights or police. They are mercenaries of a company.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Flaming_Fist
They became police and guard of Baldur's Gate around a century later after the BG events? Not sure, though you meet Eltan and he became a Duke in the 1370s.
They're also Lawful Neutral, not Good. So one of their orders could be "Kill all drow on sight and bring us their heads. We'll give you gold." Just because they wear fancy armor and call themselves whatever, doesn't make them Paladins or forces of good or right.
Are you trying to say that having a world with depth and layers = less immersive? And here I thought a world is more believable when there's actually something to chew on.
Isn't that why people love LOTR, Harry Potter, ASOIAF, Star Wars, Star Trek, Battlestar Galactica, etc. so much? Because the characters and/or world has depth and complex enough for you to be lost in if you so choose? Like @Archaos mentioned, each of those worlds have religion, politics, cultures, histories, etc. that makes them believable as an alternative universe. The fact that those factors can be compared to real life things are what makes them believable. The moral dilemmas, the empathy or hate you feel for characters, imagining how it'll be to live in that world, the thought-provoking subject matter, character flaws, etc. All of those internalizing factors are what make the world intriguing.
It's like comparing those aforementioned universes with something mindlessly shallow like the ones Hollywood likes to pump out nowadays like Transformers, Avatar, etc. Sure you can get immersed in the visuals, but the core of those universes are ultimately so shallow that it never truly sucks you in on a deeper level. It can be fun watching the boy-scout good guy win against the demonized bad guy, but it's the ones with more complicated characters/stories that gets people hooked.
Or in comic books, there's a reason why Spider-Man is so popular - he's relatable. Most of his issues are tied to real life crap. People can empathize with him and that's why people like him. Or compare one of his antagonists like the Lizard as opposed to someone like the Shocker. Since i'm on the subject of comic books... lets just compare the Watchmen, the Walking Dead, etc. to some of the more "kiddie" stuff.
I mean those things may not interest you and you're entitled to your opinion, but to say it's less immersive because it parallels real life kind of makes me go: HUH?
I have FINALLY found an official source that states the number of Eilistraeen Drow from Ed Greenwood himself, creator of the Forgotten Realms:
"Here's Ed's answer: ...Many, many drow long to return to the surface and live among trees (it's a race instinct, that some recognize for what it is - - whereas other drow just feel always unsettled and edgy, and usually turn this into fighting amongst themselves, and family and/or trading rivalries), and Eilistraee has far more worshippers than the drow who dwell under the firm influence of Vhaeraun or Lolth (who is by far the most powerful of drow deities) would have one believe.
I'd say a little more than 22% or so of all drow in Faerûn worship Eilistraee..."
http://www.candlekeep.com/library/articles/sse/sse_101112-06.htm Search for the lines to find it.
im·mer·sion
/iˈmərZHən/
Noun
1.The action of immersing someone or something in a liquid.
2.Deep mental involvement:"
Deep mental involvement. How can one be immersed/involved into a world? By making it believable and relatable. How is it made relatable? By not having a silly black and white world where it has nothing to do with how we are.
In order that we get immersed into it, we must have common grounds with it and imagining how it would be like to live there. That's not possible with mindless black and white, one-dimensional characters that go "I am the good guy! I will smite you!" and "Mwahaha! I'm an evil wizard and I like doing evil things because... EVIL! Mwahaha!"
That's retarded, that's not relatable, that's not immersive, that's a boring, fairy-tale world for kids and not for mature adults that want something more serious and involving. And it's not Forgotten Realms.
Even Harry Potter which is supposedly a book series for younger audiences, is more relatable and believable than that.
Having one-dimensional characters is a bad thing because the only way for this to be possible, is to be retarded or be mindless.
The Baldur's Gate series are praised for not having such stupid characters and ones that are actually interesting.
It's the easiest thing in the world to make cliche characters.
Late addition: the Forgotten Realms setting has it's own lore about most stuff. It's not what you want it to be. That's a homebrew/houseruled campaign *based* on Forgotten Realms.
There is room to add your stuff but if you change existing lore and you want to add pink dragons that shoot rainbows from their mouths, then it's no longer Forgotten Realms.
(Small trivia: I was making a point but pink dragons that shoot rainbows actually exist, they're called Prismatic Dragons.
http://images.community.wizards.com/community.wizards.com/user/kinocetus/large/c010a6180a5538382d482e83db48b399.jpg?v=245250)
I don't pity Gollum, either. He's a scumbag.