So you would stand idle and watch a potential innocent creature be harmed through your inaction? And you consider that a 'Good' act? Interesting.
In the specific case of the encounter with Viconia and the FF guy in BG1, I would efinitely not consider it as a bad act, and yes potentially, as a good act.
It depends on how you view things. Last time with my Paladin, I asked what he was going to do to her and I told him that I cannot let him harm her. There was no dialogue to say something different except "we cannot let you harm her" and "you can do what you want with her". The guard chose to attack me and I had to defend myself. Just because he was a guard, doesn't mean that he was in the right.
It reminds me of the starting scene in NwN1 SoU, where Mischa says that she killed a goblin child because "EVIL" and the others said that she was wrong.
Unless there's solid proof of "evilness", then as a Paladin, I would give them the benefit of the doubt. No, her alignment and Detect Evil means disposition, it's not proof that she did something wrong in the surface. Proof means that she killed someone in front of us etc. Only idiots and psychopaths kill random people because "evil". Also it's not Lawful, it's at best Chaotic Good and not what a Paladin should do.
Monsters that attack you are dangerous. Drow that attack you are dangerous. Viconia didn't do anything wrong as far as we're concerned and all we have is the word of a guard who is too eager to start a fight and kill stuff and no proof.
One should keep in mind also that in games such as these, we are never the normal guys, the superstitious commoners, or the sort. We're adventurers, extraordinary, children of a dead god: being an adventurer is not just about being able to kill monsters and fight evil, it's also about looking at matters in a different way than most people. Even if the masses considered all drow evil and to be killed on sight, and even if they have a good reason to do so, there is no reason for us to behave that way, because we're not them. If we were like them, then we would just be stuck to our homes and never go adventuring.
@Chow I agree with you but I will be the Devil's Advocate and say that CHARNAME doesn't know their true heritage when they meet Viconia, or they don't know the full of it.
A Paladin that Detects Evil and smites on sight without any proof, is not Lawful Good, he is Chaotic Stupid and it implies low intelligence AND low wisdom. Not even Minsc does that and he has below average mental stats.
The assassins in Candlekeep are evil, they attack you on sight. Sarevok is evil, he kills Gorion in front of you. Tarnesh and the ones in Nashkel that want to kill you, they're evil. Viconia is a different case for me, even if she's a Drow and even if it says that she's Evil.
For all we know, Viconia is innocent concerning the accusations of the guard, since there's no proof at all and we know that she has redeeming qualities and wanted to escape her former life.
@Archaos: The part of his true heritage is a fairly minor footnote in the entire matter: he is already an adventurer all the same, and has had some time to become something different and special.
And you do bring up a good point in regards of the assassins, the man that killed his father, and the other folks. Those are all human, or at least half-elven, yet in spite of that no one drives humans out of their homes with torches and pitchforks - it wouldn't make sense since they're human too, right? He has seen humans that behave just as bad as the drow do in all the stories he must have read back at Candlekeep in his youth.
And now along comes a drow that does not attack him, but rather runs into his arms pleading for aid from a yet another bloodthirsty human man. He has seen humans at their worst, so perhaps here would be a drow at their best? It is certainly worth giving her the benefit of doubt.
@Chow Indeed. How do we know that the average commoner guard is not ordered to "kill all drow on sight, except Drizzt, because they're murderers"?
If the guard tolds us what she did exactly and had proof for it, it would be a different case but his words are "she's a murderer, she's a drow, it should be obvious that she's evil". "It should be obvious", no proof. Just reasonable racism against drow, which is racism non-the-less without proof.
And if you ask him to be a little more reasonable about it at all, he just attacks. It doesn't really paint him as the good guy in this equation, even if the other person is a drow.
It's the sort of times when I really prefer tabletop games over computer: those would allow me to beat some sense into him and explain this all instead of being forced to kill him, or at least knock him unconscious.
Let's pretend that she was Drizzt's daughter or sister or friend or whatever. Let's pretend that she was a random Eilistraeen drow that escaped the Underdark.
CHARNAME doesn't know that. He just sees a drowess being accused of stuff without proof and a guard all too eager to kill her AND attack CHARNAME if he decides to protect her, while she pleads for his help. Would it be right to let the guard kill her then?
By the way, I believe Viconia had the means to kill him or disable him, if she wanted to. She casts Command on him each time you side with her. Yet she chooses to ask for help from strangers.
A Drow female, asking for help from surfacers. Think about that.
I believe she has little choice, but to ask for help. I pointed this out before, but considering how bad drow are it's hard to give her the benefit of the doubt. She is of evil alignment if you char to check. Drow are known to be tricksters if it means saving their own hide. They would just as well turn around and stab you in the back. Viconia also attacks you if you choose to turn her over to the guard. If you choose to let her go and she commits a lot of evil acts then it's on your conscience. I'd say in most cases a good aligned character would attack something they deemed evil on site. In the Drizzt books many good aligned characters attack Drizzt on site. I don't believe that makes them evil. They couldn't know that Drizzt is different than the others. Some gave him a chance after proving himself by helping them out. A very rare Ranger type character actually took him in without any of that. I still think it's akin to sparing a goblin/orc. Drow are considered no different. You can play the game any way you want to though.
@UnknownQuantity Exactly, Drizzt is attacked on sight and the same is about to happen to Viconia without proof, I repeat once more.
@Eudaemonium Yoshimo betrays you. I know that he's under geas. Viconia doesn't ever. And when she joins your party she says "you won't regret it". No backstabbing from her.
@Ignatius Maybe, never happens. Either in BG1 or BG2. Unlike *cough*Yoshimo*cough*.
I know it never happens. I was talking about what any sensible FR being (of all major races you can play), whatever his/her alignment, would probably think at the sight of a drow asking for help. The fact in this very particular case, it turns out different would not change the fact that in 99% of similar cases, the entire mythology of the FR leads us to believe that the backstabbing would happen at some point.
But once again, you have to remember that this particular person has already been under attack by a whole bunch of humans, half-elves, and a few halflings. All types of assassins and evil people right in the middle of the cities, where no one attacked them on sight. Nothing stops these supposedly "good races" from acting all evil and bloodthirsty as well, so why would an alleged "evil race" mean that everyone in it is automatically going to backstab you?
He knows better than most others to not judge the book by its cover, and not attack in sight when someone is asking for help from a yet another violent human.
Also in all of CHARNAME's life, he has been attacked only by human etc races. Two assassins in Candlekeep, Sarevok and his gang etc.
If people can recall, the first NPC you find on your way out of Candlekeep and after the Sarevok night, is a guy that talks to you. And one of the responses to him is: "Stand away from me! I've very little trust left after last night's events, and I'll not waste any on you!"
EDIT: A small detail. Killing the Flaming Fist mercenary gets you no Reputation loss in the last patch. Which means that it might be intended that he may not be innocent.
But once again, you have to remember that this particular person has already been under attack by a whole bunch of humans, half-elves, and a few halflings. All types of assassins and evil people right in the middle of the cities, where no one attacked them on sight. Nothing stops these supposedly "good races" from acting all evil and bloodthirsty as well, so why would an alleged "evil race" mean that everyone in it is automatically going to backstab you?
Well I see what you mean, although being attacked every other morning could also be argued as not really enticing charname to give a chance to someone who has all the looks and feel of a treacherous person. Rather the opposite...?
He knows better than most others to not judge the book by its cover, and not attack in sight when someone is asking for help from a yet another violent human.
Disagree. Remember how nice Tarnesh is as he walks towards you? the logical approach here is to assume that this female, who on top of this is a drow which multiplies by a few thousands the odds of her having a maligned intent, will also try to kill you. if a dwarf and a halfling did it, then surely a drow will...
Nothing stops these supposedly "good races" from acting all evil and bloodthirsty as well, so why would an alleged "evil race" mean that everyone in it is automatically going to backstab you?
He knows better than most others to not judge the book by its cover, and not attack in sight when someone is asking for help from a yet another violent human.
I would say yes. Drizzt has lived in the underdark a long time and he has no qualms attacking drow on site. He also would never trust one of his own race easily.
I understand yours and others judgement that people should be given a chance or that Viconia should be protected. I just find it rather boring and unnecessary. Especially in a world where we don't really need to deal with grey areas much. Games all seem to be about grey areas these days. It's rather tedious and boring. Just have the good, the evil, and that's it. It's a game after all. In this game drow are considered to be monsters who can't be trusted. It's not a matter of how I would like to be treated in real life. I think I had enough of tho whole I'm being persecuted unjustly and had to go through all these trials to prove myself theme in the last 20 years. In real life there I rarely judge people, but since this is a game I can take the moral high ground the game provides if I so choose without any guilt. I'm not actually hurting anyone as it's just a game. In this game it's justified to kill a drow on site IMO for reasons I've provided already.
@Ignatius Yeah but Tarnesh is asking suspicious questions and is being nice without knowing you. Viconia simply pleads for your help without knowing you at all and wanting nothing from you in return. Not only that, she says that you won't regret it.
"My name is Viconia. I-- I'm not from around here. Thank you so much for helping." Then she says: "I thank you. I know you may not be willing to give me a chance because of my dark skin. I am a drow, but if you give me a chance you won't regret it. Can I join with you? I need friends, now more than ever." And if you let her join you she says: "I won't disappoint you, I promise."
Viconia has been always grateful and honest about it and proves it. The guard proves nothing. Except that he's a bloodthirsty racist idiot.
Viconia has been always grateful and honest about it and proves it. The guard proves nothing. Except that he's a bloodthirsty racist idiot.
I just don't get that kind of language. The words used are those of real life and they are not suited for the FR at all. That vocabulary is misleading IMO. For me that guy is neither an idiot, nor a "racist" as you would like this term to refer to what it means in rl. He is doing what any sensible person would do when put in that world and in that situation.
Anyway, no big deal. we just disagree and play all this differently. Cheers.
Games all seem to be about grey areas these days. It's rather tedious and boring. Just have the good, the evil, and that's it.
I think you got it entirely upside-down: it's good and evil, with no grey areas, that is boring, not to mention entirely unrealistic and breaking all suspension of disbelief. People are supposed to behave like they were people, which includes distrust and persecution, but also a chance of redemption and becoming truly good.
I mean, just think about it: in a truly black and white world, what would it be that made these goblins and drow and whatever so unapologetically evil? What mystical source or brain defect stops them from ever becoming good, no matter what you ever did? Why would humans be allowed to be either one, both a knight in a shining armor and a cackling mustache-twirling necromancer, but the same opportunity is denied from all other races?
I think you're just looking for an excuse to solve things with violence and never think about whether what you're doing is wrong. That's terrible.
@Ignatius By racist I mean that he most likely believes "all drow are evil murderers". He seems reasonably prejudiced because of her race. "She's a drow, it should be obvious that she's evil". I am not sure how the term I'm using is wrong.
Isn't treating others negatively because of their race, racist?
He is doing what any sensible person would do when put in that world and in that situation.
Well, I think he could at least try and explain it a little better to some bystander that might disagree with him, instead of going "She's a murderer!" and attacking them if they wish for elaboration.
@Archaos: The word "racist" was entirely accurate in the way you used it. Ignatius just said that it doesn't really apply to fantasy world, because in there, for the most part, the races are the way they are stereotyped and how people see them. Not even once is the word actually uttered in any of the games: it would be wholly out of place.
I mean, just think about it: in a truly black and white world, what would it be that made these goblins and drow and whatever so unapologetically evil? What mystical source or brain defect stops them from ever becoming good, no matter what you ever did? Why would humans be allowed to be either one, both a knight in a shining armor and a cackling mustache-twirling necromancer, but the same opportunity is denied from all other races?
Because drows have fallen. They have renounced to the goodness of elves, to the nobility of their races, have turned against the gods who had created the elven race, and aligned with a fallen god, an evil god. Betrayed what was good to adore what is bad. There are no shades of grey here. They are as a race unredeemable. Nothing of this is true for humans, dwarves, elves, gnomes, halflings.
Think of it if you really need a RL analogy, as fallen angels in a biblical context: demons.
@Ignatius By racist I mean that he most likely believes "all drow are evil murderers". He seems reasonably prejudiced because of her race. "She's a drow, it should be obvious that she's evil". I am not sure how the term I'm using is wrong.
Isn't treating others negatively because of their race, racist?
Yes, but in the case of the FR and applied to drows, it is 100% legitimate and "good" to be as such. That's why the vocabulary is misleading, because no one thinks of "being racist" as something potentially good. Well here in this fantasy world and in the case of drow, it seems that it is and I actually believe that you yourself are misled by using this vocabulary.
@UnknownQuantity Exactly, Drizzt is attacked on sight and the same is about to happen to Viconia without proof, I repeat once more.
@Eudaemonium Yoshimo betrays you. I know that he's under geas. Viconia doesn't ever. And when she joins your party she says "you won't regret it". No backstabbing from her.
Sorry Sir, but at the time of BG1 (no BG2 knowledge), we have no clues that she would betray us or not ;-)
Only the second game added depth to the character.
I alway save her because she is attacked for no reason (and the fact the FF guard drops a nice plate armor ;-) ).
@Ignatius "They are as a race unredeemable"? Drizzt says hi. Viconia in BG2 becoming True Neutral if you romance her that way says hi. All Eilistraeen Drow and Eilistraee herself says hi.
Drow are born, not made. The first drow were fallen, yes. Those born drow have a choice and it's their culture that prevents them from being good but exceptions are possible.
Games all seem to be about grey areas these days. It's rather tedious and boring. Just have the good, the evil, and that's it.
I think you got it entirely upside-down: it's good and evil, with no grey areas, that is boring, not to mention entirely unrealistic and breaking all suspension of disbelief. People are supposed to behave like they were people, which includes distrust and persecution, but also a chance of redemption and becoming truly good.
I mean, just think about it: in a truly black and white world, what would it be that made these goblins and drow and whatever so unapologetically evil? What mystical source or brain defect stops them from ever becoming good, no matter what you ever did? Why would humans be allowed to be either one, both a knight in a shining armor and a cackling mustache-twirling necromancer, but the same opportunity is denied from all other races?
I think you're just looking for an excuse to solve things with violence and never think about whether what you're doing is wrong. That's terrible.
Actually most of the game I played in my early days around the 90s were black and white. They were a lot more fun then the games I played in the 2000s where moral choices started coming into play. For instance in Diablo/Warcraft the Orcs were evil. They were a menacing race that attacked all humans on site. They wanted to exterminate all the good races. In World of Warcraft/Warcraft 3 we have all these divisions. The orcs are now wimps due to some of them being good. No longer do we have the image of fear and impending doom when they are coming our way. As soon as you allow one or two exceptions of good all of a sudden ever character that is an orc, goblin, demon, etc might be good. This ruins the much needed side of evil. Humans are supposed to be unique in that they can be both good and evil. Other races are supposed to just be a certain way. I still like watching the intros to Diablo 2 and Warcraft 2 as they are incredible menacing.
@Ignatius: Your view has been proven wrong by Drizzt, and it is indeed equally possible to redeem Viconia. Or even the demons you mentioned. Not saying it's common, but it happens.
I mean, let's consider the angels. They were the exact opposite of the drow and demons - a race entirely devoted for good. And yet they fell. If so, then should it not be possible, by the same account, for a drow to rise?
@UnknownQuantity: So let's say you came across the women and children of the orc camp you and your friends just cleaned. What would you do?
Comments
There was no dialogue to say something different except "we cannot let you harm her" and "you can do what you want with her".
The guard chose to attack me and I had to defend myself. Just because he was a guard, doesn't mean that he was in the right.
It reminds me of the starting scene in NwN1 SoU, where Mischa says that she killed a goblin child because "EVIL" and the others said that she was wrong.
Unless there's solid proof of "evilness", then as a Paladin, I would give them the benefit of the doubt.
No, her alignment and Detect Evil means disposition, it's not proof that she did something wrong in the surface.
Proof means that she killed someone in front of us etc.
Only idiots and psychopaths kill random people because "evil". Also it's not Lawful, it's at best Chaotic Good and not what a Paladin should do.
Monsters that attack you are dangerous. Drow that attack you are dangerous. Viconia didn't do anything wrong as far as we're concerned and all we have is the word of a guard who is too eager to start a fight and kill stuff and no proof.
I agree with you but I will be the Devil's Advocate and say that CHARNAME doesn't know their true heritage when they meet Viconia, or they don't know the full of it.
A Paladin that Detects Evil and smites on sight without any proof, is not Lawful Good, he is Chaotic Stupid and it implies low intelligence AND low wisdom. Not even Minsc does that and he has below average mental stats.
The assassins in Candlekeep are evil, they attack you on sight. Sarevok is evil, he kills Gorion in front of you. Tarnesh and the ones in Nashkel that want to kill you, they're evil.
Viconia is a different case for me, even if she's a Drow and even if it says that she's Evil.
For all we know, Viconia is innocent concerning the accusations of the guard, since there's no proof at all and we know that she has redeeming qualities and wanted to escape her former life.
And you do bring up a good point in regards of the assassins, the man that killed his father, and the other folks. Those are all human, or at least half-elven, yet in spite of that no one drives humans out of their homes with torches and pitchforks - it wouldn't make sense since they're human too, right? He has seen humans that behave just as bad as the drow do in all the stories he must have read back at Candlekeep in his youth.
And now along comes a drow that does not attack him, but rather runs into his arms pleading for aid from a yet another bloodthirsty human man. He has seen humans at their worst, so perhaps here would be a drow at their best? It is certainly worth giving her the benefit of doubt.
Indeed. How do we know that the average commoner guard is not ordered to "kill all drow on sight, except Drizzt, because they're murderers"?
If the guard tolds us what she did exactly and had proof for it, it would be a different case but his words are "she's a murderer, she's a drow, it should be obvious that she's evil". "It should be obvious", no proof.
Just reasonable racism against drow, which is racism non-the-less without proof.
It's the sort of times when I really prefer tabletop games over computer: those would allow me to beat some sense into him and explain this all instead of being forced to kill him, or at least knock him unconscious.
CHARNAME doesn't know that. He just sees a drowess being accused of stuff without proof and a guard all too eager to kill her AND attack CHARNAME if he decides to protect her, while she pleads for his help. Would it be right to let the guard kill her then?
By the way, I believe Viconia had the means to kill him or disable him, if she wanted to. She casts Command on him each time you side with her. Yet she chooses to ask for help from strangers.
A Drow female, asking for help from surfacers. Think about that.
Maybe, never happens. Either in BG1 or BG2. Unlike *cough*Yoshimo*cough*.
Exactly, Drizzt is attacked on sight and the same is about to happen to Viconia without proof, I repeat once more.
@Eudaemonium
Yoshimo betrays you. I know that he's under geas.
Viconia doesn't ever.
And when she joins your party she says "you won't regret it". No backstabbing from her.
He knows better than most others to not judge the book by its cover, and not attack in sight when someone is asking for help from a yet another violent human.
If people can recall, the first NPC you find on your way out of Candlekeep and after the Sarevok night, is a guy that talks to you. And one of the responses to him is: "Stand away from me! I've very little trust left after last night's events, and I'll not waste any on you!"
EDIT: A small detail. Killing the Flaming Fist mercenary gets you no Reputation loss in the last patch. Which means that it might be intended that he may not be innocent.
I understand yours and others judgement that people should be given a chance or that Viconia should be protected. I just find it rather boring and unnecessary. Especially in a world where we don't really need to deal with grey areas much. Games all seem to be about grey areas these days. It's rather tedious and boring. Just have the good, the evil, and that's it. It's a game after all. In this game drow are considered to be monsters who can't be trusted. It's not a matter of how I would like to be treated in real life. I think I had enough of tho whole I'm being persecuted unjustly and had to go through all these trials to prove myself theme in the last 20 years. In real life there I rarely judge people, but since this is a game I can take the moral high ground the game provides if I so choose without any guilt. I'm not actually hurting anyone as it's just a game. In this game it's justified to kill a drow on site IMO for reasons I've provided already.
Yeah but Tarnesh is asking suspicious questions and is being nice without knowing you.
Viconia simply pleads for your help without knowing you at all and wanting nothing from you in return. Not only that, she says that you won't regret it.
"My name is Viconia. I-- I'm not from around here. Thank you so much for helping."
Then she says:
"I thank you. I know you may not be willing to give me a chance because of my dark skin. I am a drow, but if you give me a chance you won't regret it. Can I join with you? I need friends, now more than ever."
And if you let her join you she says:
"I won't disappoint you, I promise."
Viconia has been always grateful and honest about it and proves it. The guard proves nothing. Except that he's a bloodthirsty racist idiot.
Anyway, no big deal. we just disagree and play all this differently. Cheers.
I mean, just think about it: in a truly black and white world, what would it be that made these goblins and drow and whatever so unapologetically evil? What mystical source or brain defect stops them from ever becoming good, no matter what you ever did? Why would humans be allowed to be either one, both a knight in a shining armor and a cackling mustache-twirling necromancer, but the same opportunity is denied from all other races?
I think you're just looking for an excuse to solve things with violence and never think about whether what you're doing is wrong. That's terrible.
By racist I mean that he most likely believes "all drow are evil murderers". He seems reasonably prejudiced because of her race. "She's a drow, it should be obvious that she's evil". I am not sure how the term I'm using is wrong.
Isn't treating others negatively because of their race, racist?
@Archaos: The word "racist" was entirely accurate in the way you used it. Ignatius just said that it doesn't really apply to fantasy world, because in there, for the most part, the races are the way they are stereotyped and how people see them. Not even once is the word actually uttered in any of the games: it would be wholly out of place.
Think of it if you really need a RL analogy, as fallen angels in a biblical context: demons.
Sorry Sir, but at the time of BG1 (no BG2 knowledge), we have no clues that she would betray us or not ;-)
Only the second game added depth to the character.
I alway save her because she is attacked for no reason (and the fact the FF guard drops a nice plate armor ;-) ).
"They are as a race unredeemable"? Drizzt says hi. Viconia in BG2 becoming True Neutral if you romance her that way says hi. All Eilistraeen Drow and Eilistraee herself says hi.
Drow are born, not made. The first drow were fallen, yes. Those born drow have a choice and it's their culture that prevents them from being good but exceptions are possible.
I mean, let's consider the angels. They were the exact opposite of the drow and demons - a race entirely devoted for good. And yet they fell. If so, then should it not be possible, by the same account, for a drow to rise?
@UnknownQuantity: So let's say you came across the women and children of the orc camp you and your friends just cleaned. What would you do?