But of course she must be saved! She's a girl and might reward us with sex.
Drizzt won't. Even if he did, he's boy and therefore it'd be icky.
What if charname is female? Does she help Drizzt and kill Viconia then? Or does it not count because Drizzt can't join the party with 50 (or even 98!) % magic resistance and Viconia has no good gear?
@Oxford_Guy Meh, Monty for the win. They should make him resurrectable with his corpse. Like what you do to your romance when Bodhi snatches them.
The only thing an Assassin has going for them, is the poison. The increased backstab multiplier is good but the Fighter/Thief is so much better at backstabbing with the higher THAC0, specialization, HLAs, general versatility etc. Now Dorn can do the poison part, quite effectively.
Shadowdancer wouldn't be bad at all. As long as it's an evil Thief type, I'm fine.
@AHF. Had it occurred to you that what you hear in the voice clips is only a fraction of the actual dialogue going on? Like in the hours and days and weeks when your party is traveling between areas or in taverns and generally camping?
As far as the Detect evil, I can't say much on that front. Must be dumbed down mechanics would be my guess. Either way, even if he "Knows" she is Evil, I am pretty sure that Paladins aren't in the business of outright killing people merely for washing their clothes while evil.
The fact that non-voice-clip dialogue must occur is a reasonable assumption to me but I don't agree with your assumption that she is telling you to murder, etc. and complaining about freeing slaves after she has herself been on the run from a controlling religious group that she escaped because she was marked for death after refusing to kill an innocent child. You are the one reading in that she is advocating these things but I choose to believe that the voiced/written lines are supposed to give you an indication of the character's temperment. For that reason, I see Viconia as someone who has a high ego, doesn't suffer fools, and doesn't want to coddle the weak but not as someone who cheers slavery and murder. It is inconsistent with too much of the explicit dialogue for me.
Keldorn is not a good example for you because he doesn't attack others that we *know* are doing evil things without having to strain to read between the lines. Keldorn tolerates Edwin (who asks you to murder people); Sarevok (enough said); and Korgan (who enjoys regaling the group with tales of putting an axe into people). Of those 4, there is nothing to suggest that Viconia is the most worthy of death but lots to suggest that Keldorn is really, really bothered by the fact that she is a drow.
@UnknownQuantity Viconia also refused to kill a child as it has been said and she follows Shar not Lolth. That's a death-sentence for those that defy Lolth. She instead escaped to the surface for it.
The Flaming Fist soldier was racist and wanted to kill her for no reason other than the color of her skin. Viconia didn't do anything wrong as far as we're concerned and she can stop being evil in BG2 if you romance her. Not sure if she becomes True Neutral or Neutral good.
Yeah, she's evil. But she can be redeemed.
If you have a choice between an evil female drow and a flaming fist accusing her of doing something wrong the flaming fist is probably the one telling the truth. We already went over this in the Drizzt thread where people were arguing of killing Drizzt despite his reputation because he is a drow.
@UnknownQuantity EDIT: Actually, she is indeed accused of murder of the foulest sort. Though there's no proof of that, he follows it up by saying "she's a drow, it should be obvious that she's evil". So the guard might be jumping to conclusions, in other words: drow = evil murderers.
Drow have that sort of reputation, so this might be very likely.
By the way, about killing Drizzt, reputation means nothing for someone that grew all their life inside Candlekeep. There, rarely people come to visit since it's closed and you need to be rich to enter (expensive/rare book).
The CHARNAME, might have heard of Drizzt but any drow can claim that in order for the other person to drop his guard or trick him.
There were people in the middle ages that went "A black cat! It's a witch! Kill it!" Why can't CHARNAME do the same? "Drow! Kill him!". You know, like the Flaming Fist soldier, possibly.
@UnknownQuantity EDIT: Actually, she is indeed accused of murder of the foulest sort. Though there's no proof of that, he follows it up by saying "she's a drow, it should be obvious that she's evil". So the guard might be jumping to conclusions, in other words: drow = evil murderers.
Drow have that sort of reputation, so this might be very likely.
By the way, about killing Drizzt, reputation means nothing for someone that grew all their life inside Candlekeep. There, rarely people come to visit since it's closed and you need to be rich to enter (expensive/rare book).
The CHARNAME, might have heard of Drizzt but any drow can claim that in order for the other person to drop his guard or trick him.
There were people in the middle ages that went "A black cat! It's a witch! Kill it!" Why can't CHARNAME do the same? "Drow! Kill him!". You know, like the Flaming Fist soldier, possibly.
I saw that in the other thread. I haven't seen this myself, but someone said that one of the guards mentions Drizzt. If that is true that charname would likely know of Drizzt as well. Gorion probably would have told him about Drizzt. He seems to be pretty worldly.
I have a question for y'all to ponder. Do any of you know the Author who might have written the first "Drow" Story? He was called one of the greatest natural story teller ever born.
I have a question for y'all to ponder. Do any of you know the Author who might have written the first "Drow" Story? He was called one of the greatest natural story teller ever born.
I could be wrong here, but I thought Gygax invented the Drow by using a Scottish word that he found at random in an old dictionary he picked up?
As to the actual dark elves he based the Drow on, that's a lot of cultures over a lot of time...
@AHF. Had it occurred to you that what you hear in the voice clips is only a fraction of the actual dialogue going on? Like in the hours and days and weeks when your party is traveling between areas or in taverns and generally camping?
As far as the Detect evil, I can't say much on that front. Must be dumbed down mechanics would be my guess. Either way, even if he "Knows" she is Evil, I am pretty sure that Paladins aren't in the business of outright killing people merely for washing their clothes while evil.
The fact that non-voice-clip dialogue must occur is a reasonable assumption to me but I don't agree with your assumption that she is telling you to murder, etc. and complaining about freeing slaves after she has herself been on the run from a controlling religious group that she escaped because she was marked for death after refusing to kill an innocent child. You are the one reading in that she is advocating these things but I choose to believe that the voiced/written lines are supposed to give you an indication of the character's temperment. For that reason, I see Viconia as someone who has a high ego, doesn't suffer fools, and doesn't want to coddle the weak but not as someone who cheers slavery and murder. It is inconsistent with too much of the explicit dialogue for me.
Keldorn is not a good example for you because he doesn't attack others that we *know* are doing evil things without having to strain to read between the lines. Keldorn tolerates Edwin (who asks you to murder people); Sarevok (enough said); and Korgan (who enjoys regaling the group with tales of putting an axe into people). Of those 4, there is nothing to suggest that Viconia is the most worthy of death but lots to suggest that Keldorn is really, really bothered by the fact that she is a drow.
So I am not in any way assuming what is said and what is not. I was merely offering an alternative suggestion to your protests.
As for Viconia's personality being 'Evil', who knows? I do know that some of the banter in BG2 between the two can get a little heated. It may not be that she is saying 'Evil' things to Charname or to Keldorn behind Charname's back (and so not making it into the banter that the Player hears) so much as her personality and his clash. Add in the mix that she is Evil, and he might justify 'Defending himself' when blows start flying.
As for your assumption that Keldorn must be 'Bothered by the fact that she is a drow', I see no evidence of that. Nor that he is racist in that manner. Nor that race has to enter into it at all. Can't two people of diametrically opposing ideologies merely not like each other enough to be antagonistic behind the scenes?
I have a happily married uncle who is always regaling the family with tales of what he calls 'nudie bars' and of strippers and hookers and internet porn. He will whistle and cat call like a sailor or a construction worker if a pretty girl walks by. But it is all bluster and macho bull. He doesn't mean a word of it. And his wife (and the rest of the family) know it. In fact, if he were to stop doing that we would be much more worried. My point is, you mention about Korgan. His stories might be akin to what my uncle does, only with a bit more of actually doing the stuff. But it is 'Mainly' harmless talk. And people realize it. Viconia's banter and barbs directed at Keldorn "Might" be more subtle and intentional.
But to be clear, these are not what I am proposing "IS" happening. Merely that there 'Could' be a lot more going on behind the scenes than your black and white interpretation seems to suggest. They are alternate theories and nothing more.
"There is more in heaven and earth than are dreampt of in your philosophy, Horatio."
Add in the mix that she is Evil, and he might justify 'Defending himself' when blows start flying.
As for your assumption that Keldorn must be 'Bothered by the fact that she is a drow', I see no evidence of that. Nor that he is racist in that manner. Nor that race has to enter into it at all. Can't two people of diametrically opposing ideologies merely not like each other enough to be antagonistic behind the scenes?
I have a happily married uncle who is always regaling the family with tales of what he calls 'nudie bars' and of strippers and hookers and internet porn. He will whistle and cat call like a sailor or a construction worker if a pretty girl walks by. But it is all bluster and macho bull. He doesn't mean a word of it. And his wife (and the rest of the family) know it. In fact, if he were to stop doing that we would be much more worried. My point is, you mention about Korgan. His stories might be akin to what my uncle does, only with a bit more of actually doing the stuff. But it is 'Mainly' harmless talk. And people realize it. Viconia's banter and barbs directed at Keldorn "Might" be more subtle and intentional.
But to be clear, these are not what I am proposing "IS" happening. Merely that there 'Could' be a lot more going on behind the scenes than your black and white interpretation seems to suggest. They are alternate theories and nothing more.
"There is more in heaven and earth than are dreampt of in your philosophy, Horatio."
No evidence of him being bothered by her being a drow? He complains about multiple characters being evil but only about the race of Viconia. When he sees her tied up in front of a lynch mob, he tells you to leave the drow there to burn. When he threatens her it is very explicit about being a drow:
[Viconia]My Mistress of the Gray Wastes is not deserving of her reputation. There are no hatreds too petty, Keldorn, as to compel forgiveness. And as I'm certain you're well aware, all pains are hidden. The mandate of your loyal order is deception and ruse, so misery is just another disguise for your gang of holy thugs agenda is my guess. Yes? [Keldorn] Shar is a perverse travesty, drow. Her cult is seething with evil and bitter yield. She's a coven for the morose and pathetic. Add another slight to the Order and you'll not reckon her secrets in the world of the living. Do you understand me, witch? Not a word in my direction. EVER. [Viconia]Stay your hostility, paladin, I seek no conflict with you or your order. I've witnessed your sargh and streeaka firsthand. My humblest apologies, suliss.
Just for reference, suliss means "grace" in drow and "sargh and streeaka" are compliments for his fighting ability and spirit. The last statement isn't an insult in any way but seems to be an effort to defuse the conflict.
[Keldorn]I urge you to reconsider the sheltering of this drow! However desperate be our mission, we make it worse by sheltering a demon such as her! [Viconia] Do you have a problem with my presence, male? [Keldorn]Aye, I do, drow. And if you last another day within this party, I shall do us all a favor and spit you on my blade.
[Keldorn]Your time is done, drow. I gave you your warning. [Viconia] How noble... and how foolish.
Look at the other options for Keldorn to attack and his total lack of action:
Edwin - Edwin orders the killing of people in the game (unlike Viconia). Edwin is an evil mage and Keldorn is an Inquisitor. Seems like the most overt conflict situation if Keldorn isn't bothered by Viconia being a drow. So does Keldorn attack Edwin? No. He only defends himself when Edwin attacks him and he even tries to defuse the situation when Edwin starts the attack sequence by saying: [Keldorn] What is the concern, wizard? I have done nothing to aggravate you. -- Does he refer to Edwin's race? No.
Korgan - Does he hate Korgan? No. Keldorn actually expresses admiration for Korgan's fighting ability and gets along with him reasonably well (talking about Korgan's "prowess" and his "clever blade", etc.). -- Does he refer to Korgan as a dwarf? No.
Sarevok - Korgan actually tries to redeem Sarevok and stands up to repeated insults without even getting snippy with Sarevok. Instead of reacting to the insults, he suggests that Sarevok doesn't really believe them and that he should think on the meaning of his life and the afterlife. -- Does he refer to Sarevok's race? No.
* * * *
He is so focused on it that when he refers to her he almost always uses simply the word "drow".What enters the area of gray is whether he has good reason for being bothered by drow. I see plenty of room for interpretation with that. Since the drow in Forgotten Realms are evil as a race in a way that is different from anything in RL, I can certainly see background scenarios where he has seen innocents slaughtered by drow and hates them, etc.
There were people in the middle ages that went "A black cat! It's a witch! Kill it!" Why can't CHARNAME do the same? "Drow! Kill him!". You know, like the Flaming Fist soldier, possibly.
I really do not get that kind of analogy. There is no doubt going by the Forgotten Realms litterature / myths that drows as a race are evil. And of the foulest kind. It's not like it is debeatable or a fabrication by whatever psychopats. It is a fact that this fantasy world leads us to accept as such. That's why I always really struggled, RP-wise, when playing anything other than an Evil character (and even then it is not so obvious), to side with Viconia rather than the FF guy. The fact that his accusation is based on facts or reputation matters little; the odds that once set free, she will one day go and slaughter innocents are huge - while the odds that the FF guy will do the same are much much lower.
There were people in the middle ages that went "A black cat! It's a witch! Kill it!" Why can't CHARNAME do the same? "Drow! Kill him!". You know, like the Flaming Fist soldier, possibly.
I really do not get that kind of analogy. There is no doubt going by the Forgotten Realms litterature / myths that drows as a race are evil. And of the foulest kind. It's not like it is debeatable or a fabrication by whatever psychopats. It is a fact that this fantasy world leads us to accept as such. That's why I always really struggled, RP-wise, when playing anything other than an Evil character (and even then it is not so obvious), to side with Viconia rather than the FF guy. The fact that his accusation is based on facts or reputation matters little; the odds that once set free, she will one day go and slaughter innocents are huge - while the odds that the FF guy will do the same are much much lower.
I have to agree. Drizzt went through a lot to be accepted as good. He faced a lot of groups who wanted to kill him on site and was able to escape with his life luckily. I'm sure there are still people in the realms who don't like him regardless. Being racist against a drow is like being racist again xvart, kobold, ogre, demon, etc. If it's ok to attack one of those creatures on site or be inclined to extreme distrust against them it must also be so with a drow. They have even worse reputations then those creatures.
@Ignatius. Cannon or not, I have a very hard time judging an individual based on the actions of others of the same race and no other data.
There are tall people who are very smart. Yet i don't judge all tall people to be smart. That would be ridiculous. This is no different.
Also, I want to share the fact that the Flaming Fist are a Mercenary group. They are hired by the Dukes of Baldur's Gate. They are little more than thugs for hire. Why would you believe them over anyone else? And considering your initial encounter with Viconia (in BG1) the FF won't justify his actions and merely wants you to 'Stand aside' while he attacks another person. Isn't that what happened to you? And wouldn't you have wanted bystanders to step in and help? so why wouldn't you defend her at least until you have more facts?
Well, with Drow, its usually very much a matter of an entire race hell bent on slavery and murder with the one or two exceptions here or there. Its not really a question of "Well, there are good Drow and there are bad Drow, and you can't tell by looking at them." You can be sure that given the chance, a Drow will probably say "Yeah, I'm a good Drow, just like Drizzt!" before slitting your throat in your sleep or burying a dagger in your back.
That said, CHARNAME has probably never seen a Drow (depending on order of events), but what they HAVE seen plenty of is someone walking up out of nowhere saying "Time for you to die" before they try to murder him. Viconia probably gets a whole lot of sympathy there, whether or not she deserves it.
Well, with Drow, its usually very much a matter of an entire race hell bent on slavery and murder with the one or two exceptions here or there. Its not really a question of "Well, there are good Drow and there are bad Drow, and you can't tell by looking at them." You can be sure that given the chance, a Drow will probably say "Yeah, I'm a good Drow, just like Drizzt!" before slitting your throat in your sleep or burying a dagger in your back.
That said, CHARNAME has probably never seen a Drow (depending on order of events), but what they HAVE seen plenty of is someone walking up out of nowhere saying "Time for you to die" before they try to murder him. Viconia probably gets a whole lot of sympathy there, whether or not she deserves it.
By BG2, there is a good chance she has earned his trust if she helped him do good and defeat Sarevok in Baldur's Gate as well. I agree that the FR's background makes it much more reasonable to strike first against a drow than is the case in real life (where there is no justification based on race) so I am open to people have different views on whether good or lawful people can justifiably hate drow on sight. I am convinced, however, that this is a factor with Keldorn given his language.
It's kind of funny people find ways to justify saving Viconia as much as they find ways to justify killing Drizzt. Most people say well Drizzt is a drow and evil so we should kill him on sight. On the flip side Viconia must be saved because she is being chased by a flaming fist! She is a female drow. If you read the books female drow are generally more evil then the males and dominant in the society. I don't see any reason to not take the word of the flamming fist over a drow who worships and evil surface god. I can also point out shes of evil alignment regardless of what people judge her to be by talking to her over the course of the baldur's gate series.
I have never killed Drizzt, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. My firm belief is that people kill Drizzt because they want his gear.
Whether or not she is evil is irrelevant. She's not in the act of carrying out evil and, therefore, is not free game to be slaughtered. Same reason we shouldn't walk up to Monty and Xzar and slaughter them. If a player does it, that is how they roll (so to speak), but justification is weak, at best.
It's kind of funny people find ways to justify saving Viconia as much as they find ways to justify killing Drizzt. Most people say well Drizzt is a drow and evil so we should kill him on sight. On the flip side Viconia must be saved because she is being chased by a flaming fist! She is a female drow. If you read the books female drow are generally more evil then the males and dominant in the society. I don't see any reason to not take the word of the flamming fist over a drow who worships and evil surface god. I can also point out shes of evil alignment regardless of what people judge her to be by talking to her over the course of the baldur's gate series.
I have never killed Drizzt, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. My firm belief is that people kill Drizzt because they want his gear.
Whether or not she is evil is irrelevant. She's not in the act of carrying out evil and, therefore, is not free game to be slaughtered. Same reason we shouldn't walk up to Monty and Xzar and slaughter them. If a player does it, that is how they roll (so to speak), but justification is weak, at best.
Agreed. If Drizzt netted you no items and no experience (that number is high enough to draw interest even without the items), then a much smaller % of people would take him on.
It's kind of funny people find ways to justify saving Viconia as much as they find ways to justify killing Drizzt. Most people say well Drizzt is a drow and evil so we should kill him on sight. On the flip side Viconia must be saved because she is being chased by a flaming fist! She is a female drow. If you read the books female drow are generally more evil then the males and dominant in the society. I don't see any reason to not take the word of the flamming fist over a drow who worships and evil surface god. I can also point out shes of evil alignment regardless of what people judge her to be by talking to her over the course of the baldur's gate series.
I have never killed Drizzt, so I'm not sure what you're talking about. My firm belief is that people kill Drizzt because they want his gear.
Whether or not she is evil is irrelevant. She's not in the act of carrying out evil and, therefore, is not free game to be slaughtered. Same reason we shouldn't walk up to Monty and Xzar and slaughter them. If a player does it, that is how they roll (so to speak), but justification is weak, at best.
I disagree. I feel that being she is a female drow I can't trust her. It is a difficult decision to make, but since I only have two choices I will turn her over to the flaming fist. The fact she attacks me after ward is her own fault and confirms her evil nature as a drow. As I've pointed out Drow are considered worse then most monsters, but I don't see you defending killing them. Giving a drow female a chance could easily cost you your life. I don't see anything wrong with killing or not helping her as a good aligned character. You can point out racism and judgement all you want, but as many people have pointed out it is false in this situation. You are letting your feelings from real life cloud your characters forgotten realms judgement.
Agreed. If Drizzt netted you no items and no experience (that number is high enough to draw interest even without the items), then a much smaller % of people would take him on.
I think a fair number would still do it for the prestige. he is intended to be a tough opponent. And people always want to take down "Name" opponents. It's just the nature of things.
My statement about the Drow is not about the name persa. I was thinking about an American Author that I think wrote at least 2-3 stories about a race of being that was driven underground by humans. Another story that this author wrote told of an Ancient Race that had Black Skin and was evil. There was only one in the story. It had a bad habit of kidnapping women. The hero of the story went after this being because it took his woman. I believe that Gary Gygax used a lot of this American writters stories to help him to develope the D&D-AD&D gaming world.
There are tall people who are very smart. Yet i don't judge all tall people to be smart. That would be ridiculous. This is no different.
Of course it is different. There is nothing that would pre-dispose tall people to being smart.In the FR, there is something that pre-dispose all drows to being evil. And of the worst kind of evilness.
Also, I want to share the fact that the Flaming Fist are a Mercenary group. They are hired by the Dukes of Baldur's Gate. They are little more than thugs for hire. Why would you believe them over anyone else?
It is not over "anyone else", it is over a drow. The normal cours eof action here is to believe the FF and not the drow.
And considering your initial encounter with Viconia (in BG1) the FF won't justify his actions and merely wants you to 'Stand aside' while he attacks another person. Isn't that what happened to you? And wouldn't you have wanted bystanders to step in and help? so why wouldn't you defend her at least until you have more facts?
Because she belongs to an evil race. Not an evil race by hearsay or rumours, but by centuries of massive factual elements, an ocean of foul crimes committed, and the very constitution of the drow race in the beginning to testify for it.
Again, drow individual redemption is possible as evidenced by Drizzt. Yet at the same time, extremely rare. And such redemptions will change nothing to the global perception of drows as a race.
He will whistle and cat call like a sailor or a construction worker if a pretty girl walks by. But it is all bluster and macho bull. He doesn't mean a word of it. And his wife (and the rest of the family) know it. In fact, if he were to stop doing that we would be much more worried.
You do realise that what he's doing is basically harassment, and while your family might know he doesn't mean it, the strangers he's actually targeting do not? That's just not cool.
But in this fantasy world we do have some other data: the fact that such individual belongs to a race which is, as a whole, inherently evil.
Anecdotal data about a largely mythical (hardly anyone has ever seen them) race. and no one is saying "Trust them". Merely don't "Murder them on sight with no good reason."
Of course it is different. There is nothing that would pre-dispose tall people to being smart.In the FR, there is something that pre-dispose all drows to being evil. And of the worst kind of evilness.
It is no different. Maybe two or three people on the surface have ever been to the Underdark and lived to report back. And those accounts are word of mouth at best, being distorted over many tellings. So who says that Drow are "Predisposed" to anything at all? How many people know more than a dozen of them (and even a dozen is nothing compared to the multitudes that exist) to judge? So who is to say that Drow are predisposed any which way?
The history of this real world is rife with times when one 'race' or another was thought to be 'Predisposed' towards evil or corruption or disease or bad grammer. How many times has it been proven right? NONE. Individuals might be evil, but to brand an entire race based on anecdotal data is called bigotry, racism and ignorance.
It is not over "anyone else", it is over a drow. The normal cours eof action here is to believe the FF and not the drow.
To put it another way, you will take the word of a Brigand intent on killing a woman on her own in the wilds. This brigand comes on aggressively to begin with. He flat refuses to provide any proof of his claims. And he expects you to murder the woman as part of an unthinking mob? No trial. No evidence. And he even doesn't want you to talk to her. Sounds like Silky to me. Did you help her out? Is that what you are defending?
Because she belongs to an evil race. Not an evil race by hearsay or rumours, but by centuries of massive factual elements, an ocean of foul crimes committed, and the very constitution of the drow race in the beginning to testify for it.
Wait. When did CNN come to Forgotten Realms? When was the internet invented there? Where are the live action cameras? Where are the roving reporters? Because, correct me if I am wrong, but EVERYTHING about the Drow race, and in fact almost all of actual HISTORY as far as the common people (and even the elite and nobility) are concerned is hearsay and rumors. That is how history is passed down in a world like that. Word of mouth. Through stories that are told and retold and embellished and altered to fit the teller's beliefs and agendas. Libraries rarely exist and even they are largely full of second, third, fourth and worse hand accounts of events that took place far away and long ago.
Even today in real life, with all of our technology, history is distorted and rewritten to the teller's point of view. News is sensationalized and made to fit whatever agenda the news media or the politicians choose to make it say. They are written to make the winners look like heroes instead of invaders. They are rewritten so that dirty deeds appear to be justifiable. And they are obscured when they prove to be embarrassing or outright lies. So without that technology it is going to be a million times easier to distort and scandalize people and races.
Again, drow individual redemption is possible as evidenced by Drizzt. Yet at the same time, extremely rare. And such redemptions will change nothing to the global perception of drows as a race.
You can redeem Viconia in the game. So how rare is it? Drizzt is a 'Relatively' well known 'reformed Drow'? That makes two. How many more are there out there? Are they common or rare? How do you know? is it 10% of the time? is it 50%? Is it most of those Drow on the surface? And most importantly, are you willing to Murder merely because there is a chance that they might be Walking around while evil?
Do you kill Edwin. He at least you know to be evil. And he is a self-proclaimed 'Red wizard of Thay', a group known to be evil. Not by birth, but by choice and deed. How long till you haul off and slay him for no action in particular?
You can redeem Viconia in the game. So how rare is it? Drizzt is a 'Relatively' well known 'reformed Drow'? That makes two. How many more are there out there? Are they common or rare? How do you know? is it 10% of the time? is it 50%? Is it most of those Drow on the surface? And most importantly, are you willing to Murder merely because there is a chance that they might be Walking around while evil?
Do you kill Edwin. He at least you know to be evil. How long till you haul off and slay him for no action in particular?
I don't think you are looking at this at all. You want to say that ever good character should judge everything the same way. If an Ogre is good and proven themself we should therefore give all Orgres the benefit of the doubt. Drizzt is never redeemed. He is always good. He just had to prove it to people and generally most people attacked him for being a drow on the surface. Drizzt himself loves to kill his own people.
I don't think you are looking at this at all. You want to say that ever good character should judge everything the same way. If an Ogre is good and proven themself we should therefore give all Orgres the benefit of the doubt. Drizzt is never redeemed. He is always good. He just had to prove it to people and generally most people attacked him for being a drow on the surface. Drizzt himself loves to kill his own people.
Quite the contrary. I am merely saying that a good or neutral character would be more disposed to actually sit down and discuss the 'good or evil' nature of a being who isn't actively attacking them without cause instead of flat killing them before they can speak their side of things.
I don't think you are looking at this at all. You want to say that ever good character should judge everything the same way. If an Ogre is good and proven themself we should therefore give all Orgres the benefit of the doubt. Drizzt is never redeemed. He is always good. He just had to prove it to people and generally most people attacked him for being a drow on the surface. Drizzt himself loves to kill his own people.
Quite the contrary. I am merely saying that a good or neutral character would be more disposed to actually sit down and discuss the 'good or evil' nature of a being who isn't actively attacking them without cause instead of flat killing them before they can speak their side of things.
LIke I said. Thats your personal opinion on alignment in real life. In a game where you have monsters, good, and evil thinks are more black and white so to speak. A good character doesn't need to justification to attack an evil monster. A Drow is considered to be one of the worst of evil monsters. None the less I wouldn't attack her directly, but neither would I save her. I would however at least turn her over to the flaming fist as who knows what havoc/evil she might cause if let free to roam the land.
A good character doesn't need to justification to attack an evil monster. A Drow is considered to be one of the worst of evil monsters. None the less I wouldn't attack her directly, but neither would I save her. I would however at least turn her over to the flaming fist as who knows what havoc/evil she might cause if let free to roam the land.
I never liked Dark Elves in any incarnation, so I unless I have an evil party that needs a cleric, I usually just slaughter the tarty, arrogant bint, sending her back to her dark mistress, Slaanesh...er...Shar.
LIke I said. Thats your personal opinion on alignment in real life. In a game where you have monsters, good, and evil thinks are more black and white so to speak. A good character doesn't need to justification to attack an evil monster. A Drow is considered to be one of the worst of evil monsters. None the less I wouldn't attack her directly, but neither would I save her. I would however at least turn her over to the flaming fist as who knows what havoc/evil she might cause if let free to roam the land.
So you would stand idle and watch a potential innocent creature be harmed through your inaction? And you consider that a 'Good' act? Interesting.
Anecdotal data about a largely mythical (hardly anyone has ever seen them) race. and no one is saying "Trust them". Merely don't "Murder them on sight with no good reason."
Anecdotal? all knowledge, books, myths about drows say the same thing. Drows themselves would not disagree. We do not have, in the FR, the slightest beginning of a hint that all this is peculation, fabrication and the result of whichever plot. We are led to believe in this FR world, that all of this is exactly what happened and how things are.
It is no different. Maybe two or three people on the surface have ever been to the Underdark and lived to report back. And those accounts are word of mouth at best, being distorted over many tellings. So who says that Drow are "Predisposed" to anything at all?
Their origins. They themselves agree with this. The analogy you are trying to make is illogical and does not stand for me. I think we just have to take it that we have entirely different views here.
The history of this real world is rife with times when one 'race' or another was thought to be 'Predisposed' towards evil or corruption or disease or bad grammer. How many times has it been proven right? NONE. Individuals might be evil, but to brand an entire race based on anecdotal data is called bigotry, racism and ignorance.
FR is not the real world. Again there is not a single hint by those who created that world, that drows being evil mioght be a fabrication. We are akin to gods with regards to the FR becauyse we know exactly how the world was created. Therefore the analogy does not stand.
This brigand comes on aggressively to begin with. He flat refuses to provide any proof of his claims. And he expects you to murder the woman as part of an unthinking mob? No trial. No evidence. And he even doesn't want you to talk to her. Sounds like Silky to me. Did you help her out? Is that what you are defending?
I am having trouble as a good or even neutral aligned character, RP wise, to interfere in favour of the drow. And since I almost always play those alignments, I never end up with Viconia.
Wait. When did CNN come to Forgotten Realms? When was the internet invented there? Where are the live action cameras? Where are the roving reporters? Because, correct me if I am wrong, but EVERYTHING about the Drow race, and in fact almost all of actual HISTORY as far as the common people (and even the elite and nobility) are concerned is hearsay and rumors.
We know the gods who invented the FR, its fantasy races and how they were created. That's much better than CNN or any media which is always going to biased whichever way you take it. When we say as gamers thatd rows are evil, we know it as a certain fact, as a godlike fact. Not as a hypothesis based on historical exegesis.
And they are obscured when they prove to be embarrassing or outright lies. So without that technology it is going to be a million times easier to distort and scandalize people and races.
Again your analogy does not stand. We know as a fact who and how the FR world was created. The alignment system to start with, has no analogy in the real world. No one individual can be labelled as "ggod", "bad", "neutral". Only maybe, their actions. Well in the FR and BG, it works differently.
Do you kill Edwin. He at least you know to be evil. And he is a self-proclaimed 'Red wizard of Thay', a group known to be evil. Not by birth, but by choice and deed. How long till you haul off and slay him for no action in particular?
His evilness is not as natural as that of a drow. It is not as foul. It might be redeemable. His (human) race does not bear in the way it came to existence, the mark of evilness. So no, I will obviously not have (when having a good character) the same attitude towards Edwin that towards a drow. Letting a drow roaming freely in a city would be similar to letting a demon or a vampire do the same.
Comments
Meh, Monty for the win. They should make him resurrectable with his corpse. Like what you do to your romance when Bodhi snatches them.
The only thing an Assassin has going for them, is the poison. The increased backstab multiplier is good but the Fighter/Thief is so much better at backstabbing with the higher THAC0, specialization, HLAs, general versatility etc.
Now Dorn can do the poison part, quite effectively.
Shadowdancer wouldn't be bad at all. As long as it's an evil Thief type, I'm fine.
Keldorn is not a good example for you because he doesn't attack others that we *know* are doing evil things without having to strain to read between the lines. Keldorn tolerates Edwin (who asks you to murder people); Sarevok (enough said); and Korgan (who enjoys regaling the group with tales of putting an axe into people). Of those 4, there is nothing to suggest that Viconia is the most worthy of death but lots to suggest that Keldorn is really, really bothered by the fact that she is a drow.
EDIT: Actually, she is indeed accused of murder of the foulest sort. Though there's no proof of that, he follows it up by saying "she's a drow, it should be obvious that she's evil". So the guard might be jumping to conclusions, in other words: drow = evil murderers.
Drow have that sort of reputation, so this might be very likely.
By the way, about killing Drizzt, reputation means nothing for someone that grew all their life inside Candlekeep. There, rarely people come to visit since it's closed and you need to be rich to enter (expensive/rare book).
The CHARNAME, might have heard of Drizzt but any drow can claim that in order for the other person to drop his guard or trick him.
There were people in the middle ages that went "A black cat! It's a witch! Kill it!" Why can't CHARNAME do the same? "Drow! Kill him!". You know, like the Flaming Fist soldier, possibly.
As to the actual dark elves he based the Drow on, that's a lot of cultures over a lot of time...
As for Viconia's personality being 'Evil', who knows? I do know that some of the banter in BG2 between the two can get a little heated. It may not be that she is saying 'Evil' things to Charname or to Keldorn behind Charname's back (and so not making it into the banter that the Player hears) so much as her personality and his clash. Add in the mix that she is Evil, and he might justify 'Defending himself' when blows start flying.
As for your assumption that Keldorn must be 'Bothered by the fact that she is a drow', I see no evidence of that. Nor that he is racist in that manner. Nor that race has to enter into it at all. Can't two people of diametrically opposing ideologies merely not like each other enough to be antagonistic behind the scenes?
I have a happily married uncle who is always regaling the family with tales of what he calls 'nudie bars' and of strippers and hookers and internet porn. He will whistle and cat call like a sailor or a construction worker if a pretty girl walks by. But it is all bluster and macho bull. He doesn't mean a word of it. And his wife (and the rest of the family) know it. In fact, if he were to stop doing that we would be much more worried. My point is, you mention about Korgan. His stories might be akin to what my uncle does, only with a bit more of actually doing the stuff. But it is 'Mainly' harmless talk. And people realize it. Viconia's banter and barbs directed at Keldorn "Might" be more subtle and intentional.
But to be clear, these are not what I am proposing "IS" happening. Merely that there 'Could' be a lot more going on behind the scenes than your black and white interpretation seems to suggest. They are alternate theories and nothing more.
"There is more in heaven and earth than are dreampt of in your philosophy, Horatio."
[Viconia]My Mistress of the Gray Wastes is not deserving of her reputation. There are no hatreds too petty, Keldorn, as to compel forgiveness. And as I'm certain you're well aware, all pains are hidden. The mandate of your loyal order is deception and ruse, so misery is just another disguise for your gang of holy thugs agenda is my guess. Yes?
[Keldorn] Shar is a perverse travesty, drow. Her cult is seething with evil and bitter yield. She's a coven for the morose and pathetic. Add another slight to the Order and you'll not reckon her secrets in the world of the living. Do you understand me, witch? Not a word in my direction. EVER.
[Viconia]Stay your hostility, paladin, I seek no conflict with you or your order. I've witnessed your sargh and streeaka firsthand. My humblest apologies, suliss.
Just for reference, suliss means "grace" in drow and "sargh and streeaka" are compliments for his fighting ability and spirit. The last statement isn't an insult in any way but seems to be an effort to defuse the conflict.
[Keldorn]I urge you to reconsider the sheltering of this drow! However desperate be our mission, we make it worse by sheltering a demon such as her!
[Viconia] Do you have a problem with my presence, male?
[Keldorn]Aye, I do, drow. And if you last another day within this party, I shall do us all a favor and spit you on my blade.
[Keldorn]Your time is done, drow. I gave you your warning.
[Viconia] How noble... and how foolish.
Look at the other options for Keldorn to attack and his total lack of action:
Edwin - Edwin orders the killing of people in the game (unlike Viconia). Edwin is an evil mage and Keldorn is an Inquisitor. Seems like the most overt conflict situation if Keldorn isn't bothered by Viconia being a drow. So does Keldorn attack Edwin? No. He only defends himself when Edwin attacks him and he even tries to defuse the situation when Edwin starts the attack sequence by saying:
[Keldorn] What is the concern, wizard? I have done nothing to aggravate you.
-- Does he refer to Edwin's race? No.
Korgan - Does he hate Korgan? No. Keldorn actually expresses admiration for Korgan's fighting ability and gets along with him reasonably well (talking about Korgan's "prowess" and his "clever blade", etc.).
-- Does he refer to Korgan as a dwarf? No.
Sarevok - Korgan actually tries to redeem Sarevok and stands up to repeated insults without even getting snippy with Sarevok. Instead of reacting to the insults, he suggests that Sarevok doesn't really believe them and that he should think on the meaning of his life and the afterlife.
-- Does he refer to Sarevok's race? No.
* * * *
He is so focused on it that when he refers to her he almost always uses simply the word "drow".What enters the area of gray is whether he has good reason for being bothered by drow. I see plenty of room for interpretation with that. Since the drow in Forgotten Realms are evil as a race in a way that is different from anything in RL, I can certainly see background scenarios where he has seen innocents slaughtered by drow and hates them, etc.
There are tall people who are very smart. Yet i don't judge all tall people to be smart. That would be ridiculous. This is no different.
Also, I want to share the fact that the Flaming Fist are a Mercenary group. They are hired by the Dukes of Baldur's Gate. They are little more than thugs for hire. Why would you believe them over anyone else? And considering your initial encounter with Viconia (in BG1) the FF won't justify his actions and merely wants you to 'Stand aside' while he attacks another person. Isn't that what happened to you? And wouldn't you have wanted bystanders to step in and help? so why wouldn't you defend her at least until you have more facts?
That said, CHARNAME has probably never seen a Drow (depending on order of events), but what they HAVE seen plenty of is someone walking up out of nowhere saying "Time for you to die" before they try to murder him. Viconia probably gets a whole lot of sympathy there, whether or not she deserves it.
Whether or not she is evil is irrelevant. She's not in the act of carrying out evil and, therefore, is not free game to be slaughtered. Same reason we shouldn't walk up to Monty and Xzar and slaughter them. If a player does it, that is how they roll (so to speak), but justification is weak, at best.
Again, drow individual redemption is possible as evidenced by Drizzt. Yet at the same time, extremely rare. And such redemptions will change nothing to the global perception of drows as a race.
The history of this real world is rife with times when one 'race' or another was thought to be 'Predisposed' towards evil or corruption or disease or bad grammer. How many times has it been proven right? NONE. Individuals might be evil, but to brand an entire race based on anecdotal data is called bigotry, racism and ignorance. To put it another way, you will take the word of a Brigand intent on killing a woman on her own in the wilds. This brigand comes on aggressively to begin with. He flat refuses to provide any proof of his claims. And he expects you to murder the woman as part of an unthinking mob? No trial. No evidence. And he even doesn't want you to talk to her. Sounds like Silky to me. Did you help her out? Is that what you are defending? Wait. When did CNN come to Forgotten Realms? When was the internet invented there? Where are the live action cameras? Where are the roving reporters? Because, correct me if I am wrong, but EVERYTHING about the Drow race, and in fact almost all of actual HISTORY as far as the common people (and even the elite and nobility) are concerned is hearsay and rumors. That is how history is passed down in a world like that. Word of mouth. Through stories that are told and retold and embellished and altered to fit the teller's beliefs and agendas. Libraries rarely exist and even they are largely full of second, third, fourth and worse hand accounts of events that took place far away and long ago.
Even today in real life, with all of our technology, history is distorted and rewritten to the teller's point of view. News is sensationalized and made to fit whatever agenda the news media or the politicians choose to make it say. They are written to make the winners look like heroes instead of invaders. They are rewritten so that dirty deeds appear to be justifiable. And they are obscured when they prove to be embarrassing or outright lies. So without that technology it is going to be a million times easier to distort and scandalize people and races.
You can redeem Viconia in the game. So how rare is it? Drizzt is a 'Relatively' well known 'reformed Drow'? That makes two. How many more are there out there? Are they common or rare? How do you know? is it 10% of the time? is it 50%? Is it most of those Drow on the surface? And most importantly, are you willing to Murder merely because there is a chance that they might be Walking around while evil?
Do you kill Edwin. He at least you know to be evil. And he is a self-proclaimed 'Red wizard of Thay', a group known to be evil. Not by birth, but by choice and deed. How long till you haul off and slay him for no action in particular?
His evilness is not as natural as that of a drow. It is not as foul. It might be redeemable. His (human) race does not bear in the way it came to existence, the mark of evilness. So no, I will obviously not have (when having a good character) the same attitude towards Edwin that towards a drow. Letting a drow roaming freely in a city would be similar to letting a demon or a vampire do the same.