Drow are born, not made. The first drow were fallen, yes. Those born drow have a choice and it's their culture that prevents them from being good but exceptions are possible.
Yeah but I see that as semantics. If drows abandoned collectivelly all their culture and ways and habits, then they would cease being "drows" and would be called some sort of elven sub-race with dark skins and that's all fine. And maybe one day this kind of plot will happen and there will be an internal civil war within drows between good breakaway and redeemed groups, and the rest. But that's not the case in BG.
Hell, all I'm saying is that if a woman ran to your arms and begged for help, and this other person threatened to beat her to death with a mace without explaining to you why, then you bloody well should hear some details.
@Ignatius Being Drow is a race. If all abandoned their culture etc, they would still be drow. They would not be "typical" drow or old/traditional drow.
And those kind of wars happen between Lolthites and Eilistraeen drow. It happens in Hordes of the Underdark (NwN1 expansion) and in novels and lore.
@Chow Well said. That's why I call that guard an idiot. He presented no proof, no details, except that of his word and that he wants to kill her because she's a drow.
@Ignatius: Your view has been proven wrong by Drizzt, and it is indeed equally possible to redeem Viconia. Or even the demons you mentioned. Not saying it's common, but it happens.
No I do not think one or two isolated examples prove me wrong. Rather the opposite. The fact that such examples are so incredibly rare, tends to stengthen the fact thatd rows as a race and a group, are unredeemably evil. As a group. Now with 1/10000 probability, an individual breakaway drow might be able to avoid the curse of the group. Then it is a matter of whether charname is willing to take such a risk, or feels confident enough such a risk is controllable and worth it.
I mean, let's consider the angels. They were the exact opposite of the drow and demons - a race entirely devoted for good. And yet they fell. If so, then should it not be possible, by the same account, for a drow to rise?
Drows were alves originally, ie as close as a creature in FR can be to gods and nobility and perfection. hence my analogy. But you are right, in biblical terms, fallen angels cannot rise again. I did not say my analogy was perfect but it is the closest I found in RL.
Hell, all I'm saying is that if a woman ran to your arms and begged for help, and this other person threatened to beat her to death with a mace without explaining to you why, then you bloody well should hear some details.
where? in real life? again the analogy is ridiculous, I am sorry to say.
@Ignatius You keep ignoring this detail. Eilistraeen Drow exist. Those are not extremely rare examples. Eilistraee is the goddess of the good drow, which means that there are more than one or two, at least. I would say at least hundreds in Faerun.
@Ignatius Being Drow is a race. If all abandoned their culture etc, they would still be drow. They would not be "typical" drow or old/traditional drow.
I see it more than a race, as a heritage. "Genetically speaking" if that makes any sense, they are elves, they are a subset of the elven race. Their soiled heritage is what makes them drow, and the FR creators have given them distinct features from other elves to distinguish them physically.
No I do not think one or two isolated examples prove me wrong. Rather the opposite. The fact that such examples are so incredibly rare, tends to stengthen the fact thatd rows as a race and a group, are unredeemably evil. As a group. Now with 1/10000 probability, an individual breakaway drow might be able to avoid the curse of the group. Then it is a matter of whether charname is willing to take such a risk, or feels confident enough such a risk is controllable and worth it.
It is still a possibility, and if a drow comes to you begging for help, and indeed never betrays you, why not listen to her? It brings no immediate harm to give her the benefit of doubt, even if you are careful about her.
But you are right, in biblical terms, fallen angels cannot rise again. I did not say my analogy was perfect but it is the closest I found in RL.
D&D isn't in biblical terms, no matter what the moral guardians in the eighties say. There are accounts in canon of demons having redeemed themselves, such as the Fall-From-Grace mentioned above, unlike in the Bible.
@Ignatius You keep ignoring this detail. Eilistraeen Drow exist. Those are not extremely rare examples. Eilistraee is the goddess of the good drow, which means that there are more than one or two, at least. I would say at least hundreds in Faerun.
Ok I do not know of this much, will read about it. Is there any trace of ellistraee drows in the BG saga?
@Ignatius Not sure but I think Drizzt in the novels is asked by Eilistraee to become his Ranger and he chooses Mielikki instead. http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee Here's some more info about Eilistraee, some is 3E/4E material, though.
@Ignatius Not sure but I think Drizzt in the novels is asked by Eilistraee to become his Ranger and he chooses Mielikki instead.
I've read the novels, though it was years ago, and I don't remember Eilistraee being brought up there. But I do know that he's reasonably well-known and has a fair few redeemed drow under him.
I mean, he's specifically the god of the good drow. If there weren't many of those, he'd just die out from the lack of faith.
@Ignatius: Your view has been proven wrong by Drizzt, and it is indeed equally possible to redeem Viconia. Or even the demons you mentioned. Not saying it's common, but it happens.
I mean, let's consider the angels. They were the exact opposite of the drow and demons - a race entirely devoted for good. And yet they fell. If so, then should it not be possible, by the same account, for a drow to rise?
@UnknownQuantity: So let's say you came across the women and children of the orc camp you and your friends just cleaned. What would you do?
I would say this is a fantasy game so orcs don't have women and children thankfully. I can just worry about killing all the adult male orcs like in the lord of the rings.
This is kind of what I mean by not needing this type of thing in fantasy video games. This is a real world issue. Something that takes pleasure away from the game. Once you know a race has the capacity for good or evil it kind of ruins their image. You might as well do away with the monsters/races/etc and just have humans. IMO the races were just created to represent different human characteristics. Humans were the lucky ones who could choose their own path. It's what made them special among races. Drizzt goes against many of the D&D books and lore I read early on. I will point out he was never converted to good. Drizzt was always good from birth. I have read the first two trilogies quite a few times.
I would say this is a fantasy game so orcs don't have women and children thankfully. I can just worry about killing all the adult male orcs like in the lord of the rings.
Then where do the orcs come from? Doesn't this sort of a thing push you away from the game and remind you that yes, it's just a game and in no way equivalent to the real world?
No really, let's repeat the question. In spite of your denial, there are indeed orc women and children in front of you, whose husbands and sons and brothers you just killed. What will you do?
As for the Drizzt, what of his father Zaknafein? He's lived with the drow for centuries: was he always good as well, and if so, why didn't he leave?
It is still a possibility, and if a drow comes to you begging for help, and indeed never betrays you, why not listen to her?
Because they are strong, and quick, and extremely agile, and one moment of weakness might mean I have a dagger on my throat and am instant away from my death. And you see, I play no-reloads.
D&D isn't in biblical terms, no matter what the moral guardians in the eighties say. There are accounts in canon of demons having redeemed themselves, such as the Fall-From-Grace mentioned above, unlike in the Bible.
I know, that is exactly what I have said. I was trying to find a RL life analogy for you, and I see no one else is able to find a RL analogy. I admitted such analogy is not perfect, but you get the idea.
What about that is so ridiculous to you? Why shouldn't you go ahead and do it in the game too?
Listen, if you are not unable to understand why there is no possible analogy between on the one hand 1/ a RL woman crying to me for help , and on the other hand 2/ a drow woman crying for help to charname in the FR - then I think there is no point in continuing to discuss this over. It is useless.
@Ignatius If your Good CHARNAME kills an innocent orc baby, then he's not good and he's not lawful since they were defenseless and posed no threat. That's a Chaotic and Evil act.
That's why Paladins get the Lawful Stupid nickname. Because of acts like this.
I would say this is a fantasy game so orcs don't have women and children thankfully. I can just worry about killing all the adult male orcs like in the lord of the rings.
Then where do the orcs come from? Doesn't this sort of a thing push you away from the game and remind you that yes, it's just a game and in no way equivalent to the real world?
No really, let's repeat the question. In spite of your denial, there are indeed orc women and children in front of you, whose husbands and sons and brothers you just killed. What will you do?
As for the Drizzt, what of his father Zaknafein? He's lived with the drow for centuries: was he always good as well, and if so, why didn't he leave?
Where do they come from? I could think of a lot of different things. They are created from pure evil out of hell. Some evil being created by an even more powerful evil being like Sauron in lord of the rings. They could be other races that were mutated and twisted by a powerful evil creature from hell to do his bidding.
I believe Zaknafein was always good, but didn't have the courage to try and leave. It was like trying to leave something you know for an unkown world. The Drizzt books were probably what started this trend of moral ambiguity. I loved the books, but I find there are way to many like them now and they break may of the original D&D lore.
Because they are strong, and quick, and extremely agile, and one moment of weakness might mean I have a dagger on my throat and am instant away from my death. And you see, I play no-reloads.
It's the prevalence of people like you why even the few drow that do try to get away, like Viconia, never can. The mutual paranoia results only in destruction, and one side must relent and offer kindness before the situation can ever change at all.
It's the prisoner's dilemma. Being kind means either the best or the worst result, and so everyone is mean because they don't want to risk it, getting only the somewhat-bad result forever.
Listen, if you are not unable to understand why there is no possible analogy between on the one hand 1/ a RL woman crying to me for help , and on the other hand 2/ a drow woman crying for help to charname in the FR - then I think there is no point in continuing to discuss this over. It is useless.
All I'm asking is a three-second break from everybody as they explained each other, instead of keeping on murdering. It should be reasonable, yes?
Where do they come from? I could think of a lot of different things. They are created from pure evil out of hell. Some evil being created by an even more powerful evil being like Sauron in lord of the rings. They could be other races that were mutated and twisted by a powerful evil creature from hell to do his bidding.
Well, a link was provided before where it is said how they come across in FR: they are indeed bred like humans are.
So there are orc women and children in front of you. They've never gone anywhere, in spite of your constant denial that they're not there. Tell me what you would do.
A lawful and honorable person never kills children or defenseless people. That's Chaotic. He might arrest them or capture them.
A Good person doesn't kill innocents, either. If they do something evil, then you MIGHT have to kill them, though children don't know any better and it's still wrong in my book but if you don't have a choice, it's not something you should be proud of and have a clean conscience afterwards.
A Lawful Good Paladin that kills an innocent orc/goblin/drow baby should fall, no exceptions. A Lawful or Good person that does the same, should gravitate towards or become Neutral.
Because they are strong, and quick, and extremely agile, and one moment of weakness might mean I have a dagger on my throat and am instant away from my death. And you see, I play no-reloads.
It's the prevalence of people like you why even the few drow that do try to get away, like Viconia, never can. The mutual paranoia results only in destruction, and one side must relent and offer kindness before the situation can ever change at all.
It's the prisoner's dilemma. Being kind means either the best or the worst result, and so everyone is mean because they don't want to risk it, getting only the somewhat-bad result forever.
Listen, if you are not unable to understand why there is no possible analogy between on the one hand 1/ a RL woman crying to me for help , and on the other hand 2/ a drow woman crying for help to charname in the FR - then I think there is no point in continuing to discuss this over. It is useless.
All I'm asking is a three-second break from everybody as they explained each other, instead of keeping on murdering. It should be reasonable, yes?
Where do they come from? I could think of a lot of different things. They are created from pure evil out of hell. Some evil being created by an even more powerful evil being like Sauron in lord of the rings. They could be other races that were mutated and twisted by a powerful evil creature from hell to do his bidding.
Well, a link was provided before where it is said how they come across in FR: they are indeed bred like humans are.
So there are orc women and children in front of you. They've never gone anywhere, in spite of your constant denial that they're not there. Tell me what you would do.
Seeing that Orcs are of lawful evil alginment and evils creatures by nature. I guess I would have to kill them if I was of good alignment.
Again I point out this is just a game. In real life I wouldn't do this obviously. There are plenty of situatons like this to do with in real life. We don't need them in fantasy games of good vs evil.
Again I point out this is just a game. In real life I wouldn't do this obviously. There are plenty of situatons like this to do with in real life. We don't need them in fantasy games of good vs evil.
It's not just a game: it's a roleplaying game, which means you are supposed to play a character and try to think what he would do in the situation. It is entirely real life for him, not just something where you kill things and get score from it.
Unless you're playing an automatic construct with no other depth to him than "Set to mode: Smite Evil." Then I guess it'd be okay. But that would be a really boring thing to play, wouldn't it?
@UnknownQuantity Orcs are Chaotic Evil usually. They are such because they grew up to be evil and they follow evil gods, like Gruumsh and like drow with Lolth. You kill them because they attack you on sight or pillage villages, they are commiting evil acts. What kind of evil acts can a orc baby or infant make? Cry really bad?
It's not a game of good and evil. There are neutrals and there are people that can be redeemed. Solaufein is not evil, I think. Drizzt is not evil. Eilstraee is not evil. Viconia can become True Neutral and Sarevok Chaotic Good.
And if it was a game of only Good and Evil, it would be a REALLY boring game and not a roleplaying game.
@UnknownQuantity Orcs are Chaotic Evil usually. They are such because they grew up to be evil and they follow evil gods, like Gruumsh and like drow with Lolth. You kill them because they attack you on sight or pillage villages, they are commiting evil acts. What kind of evil acts can a orc baby or infant make? Cry really bad?
It's not a game of good and evil. There are neutrals and there are people that can be redeemed. Solaufein is not evil, I think. Drizzt is not evil. Eilstraee is not evil. Viconia can become True Neutral and Sarevok Chaotic Good.
This is all true. I'm just pointing out it takes away from the fun for me. In my youth I always like to play the Drizzt type character. I find it way to cliche now. Whenever I see a character that could be redeemed I think here we go again...
I did just look up the 1st edition orc in the monsters manual and they are listed as lawful good. It may be different in other manuals.
Personally, I find the thing that everyone can be redeemed one of the most exciting things of RPGs. I often play races like half-orcs, kobolds, or even half-ogres, deal with the persecution, and try to find diplomatic solutions to problems.
It's just the sign of passing times, I guess. I prefer it this way.
@UnknownQuantity I know that and it's your game but if you want to play a black and white character that makes no exceptions, it's your right.
But we're arguing facts and the official lore here. There are no absolutes and there are exceptions, for good or worse. Personally, I like exceptions. It adds flavor how their character develops instead of being one-dimensional "I smite all evil!" and "I'm a drow, I'm so evil! mwahaha"
@Ignatius If your Good CHARNAME kills an innocent orc baby, then he's not good and he's not lawful since they were defenseless and posed no threat. That's a Chaotic and Evil act.
No it is not. If they survive, those orcs will inevitably and whether you like it or not, bring chaos, death and destruction to everything around them. They are bnot like wild animals whose existence can be tolerated and controlled, they are evil creatures which prupose is to destroy what is good on this world. I can very well see why a Lawful and/or good character who show zero weakness in such a case.
No it is not. If they survive, those orcs will inevitably and whether you like it or not, bring chaos, death and destruction to everything around them. They are bnot like wild animals whose existence can be tolerated and controlled, they are evil creatures which prupose is to destroy what is good on this world. I can very well see why a Lawful and/or good character who show zero weakness in such a case.
They are victims of circumstance only. It is not a question of nature, but nurture, and they should be given the chance anyone else deserves by having them raised in a loving home, even if finding one might be hard.
What do you think would happen to an elf raised by orcs?
@Ignatius So let's exterminate all drow since they are inevitably evil too. Eilistraeen drow too. Angels can fall and Demons can ascend, there are no absolutes. And those are not races, angels are creatures of law and good, yet they can fall just as hard as mortals.
Comments
Also, you have two fallen elves (Irenicus and Bodhi) and good Drow (Eilistaeen, Drizzt etc).
By the way, here's a reason to kill Drizz if you're good or neutral. "I don't believe that ANY drow can be good. I will kill him to be sure".
Hell, all I'm saying is that if a woman ran to your arms and begged for help, and this other person threatened to beat her to death with a mace without explaining to you why, then you bloody well should hear some details.
Being Drow is a race. If all abandoned their culture etc, they would still be drow. They would not be "typical" drow or old/traditional drow.
And those kind of wars happen between Lolthites and Eilistraeen drow. It happens in Hordes of the Underdark (NwN1 expansion) and in novels and lore.
Well said. That's why I call that guard an idiot. He presented no proof, no details, except that of his word and that he wants to kill her because she's a drow.
You keep ignoring this detail. Eilistraeen Drow exist. Those are not extremely rare examples. Eilistraee is the goddess of the good drow, which means that there are more than one or two, at least.
I would say at least hundreds in Faerun.
Let's present the question of orc children to you too. Would you kill orc or drow children?
Not sure but I think Drizzt in the novels is asked by Eilistraee to become his Ranger and he chooses Mielikki instead.
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Eilistraee
Here's some more info about Eilistraee, some is 3E/4E material, though.
I mean, he's specifically the god of the good drow. If there weren't many of those, he'd just die out from the lack of faith.
This is kind of what I mean by not needing this type of thing in fantasy video games. This is a real world issue. Something that takes pleasure away from the game. Once you know a race has the capacity for good or evil it kind of ruins their image. You might as well do away with the monsters/races/etc and just have humans. IMO the races were just created to represent different human characteristics. Humans were the lucky ones who could choose their own path. It's what made them special among races. Drizzt goes against many of the D&D books and lore I read early on. I will point out he was never converted to good. Drizzt was always good from birth. I have read the first two trilogies quite a few times.
No really, let's repeat the question. In spite of your denial, there are indeed orc women and children in front of you, whose husbands and sons and brothers you just killed. What will you do?
As for the Drizzt, what of his father Zaknafein? He's lived with the drow for centuries: was he always good as well, and if so, why didn't he leave?
Eh? How do Orcs reproduce then? "Male orcs dominate most orcish societies and females are usually, at best, prized possessions and little better than livestock at worst."
http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Orcs
Personally, I don't like games with black and white morality. It's boring, cliche and uninteresting.
@Chow
Small detail. Eilistraee is a she. Heh. "The Dark Maiden". Daughter of Corellon Larethian, Creator of the Elves.
If your Good CHARNAME kills an innocent orc baby, then he's not good and he's not lawful since they were defenseless and posed no threat. That's a Chaotic and Evil act.
That's why Paladins get the Lawful Stupid nickname. Because of acts like this.
I believe Zaknafein was always good, but didn't have the courage to try and leave. It was like trying to leave something you know for an unkown world. The Drizzt books were probably what started this trend of moral ambiguity. I loved the books, but I find there are way to many like them now and they break may of the original D&D lore.
It's the prisoner's dilemma. Being kind means either the best or the worst result, and so everyone is mean because they don't want to risk it, getting only the somewhat-bad result forever. All I'm asking is a three-second break from everybody as they explained each other, instead of keeping on murdering. It should be reasonable, yes? That may be lawful, but it is never a good act to kill children. It's neutral at best, evil at worst. Well, a link was provided before where it is said how they come across in FR: they are indeed bred like humans are.
So there are orc women and children in front of you. They've never gone anywhere, in spite of your constant denial that they're not there. Tell me what you would do.
A Good person doesn't kill innocents, either. If they do something evil, then you MIGHT have to kill them, though children don't know any better and it's still wrong in my book but if you don't have a choice, it's not something you should be proud of and have a clean conscience afterwards.
A Lawful Good Paladin that kills an innocent orc/goblin/drow baby should fall, no exceptions.
A Lawful or Good person that does the same, should gravitate towards or become Neutral.
Again I point out this is just a game. In real life I wouldn't do this obviously. There are plenty of situatons like this to do with in real life. We don't need them in fantasy games of good vs evil.
Unless you're playing an automatic construct with no other depth to him than "Set to mode: Smite Evil." Then I guess it'd be okay. But that would be a really boring thing to play, wouldn't it?
Orcs are Chaotic Evil usually. They are such because they grew up to be evil and they follow evil gods, like Gruumsh and like drow with Lolth. You kill them because they attack you on sight or pillage villages, they are commiting evil acts.
What kind of evil acts can a orc baby or infant make? Cry really bad?
It's not a game of good and evil. There are neutrals and there are people that can be redeemed. Solaufein is not evil, I think. Drizzt is not evil. Eilstraee is not evil. Viconia can become True Neutral and Sarevok Chaotic Good.
And if it was a game of only Good and Evil, it would be a REALLY boring game and not a roleplaying game.
I did just look up the 1st edition orc in the monsters manual and they are listed as lawful good. It may be different in other manuals.
It's just the sign of passing times, I guess. I prefer it this way.
I know that and it's your game but if you want to play a black and white character that makes no exceptions, it's your right.
But we're arguing facts and the official lore here. There are no absolutes and there are exceptions, for good or worse.
Personally, I like exceptions. It adds flavor how their character develops instead of being one-dimensional "I smite all evil!" and "I'm a drow, I'm so evil! mwahaha"
What do you think would happen to an elf raised by orcs?
So let's exterminate all drow since they are inevitably evil too. Eilistraeen drow too. Angels can fall and Demons can ascend, there are no absolutes.
And those are not races, angels are creatures of law and good, yet they can fall just as hard as mortals.