You seem to be drawing from real life again. As I pointed out races represent different aspects of humans. Orcs represent an evil side of humans. If you take that away then they not longer represent anything. They are just ugly humans. It defeats the original purpose. IMO.
That original purpose has not been there for a good century or two at least: orcs were initially depicted as a thing of fantasy and mythology, something irredeemably evil, but believe it or not, even Tolkien did not consider all orcs as such. He struggled with it constantly, and there have been mentions of good orcs in his works.
If what you say is right, then orcs have been purposeless and worthless since forever.
Actually they have the greatest purpose. They are a constant threat to humanity and other goodly races. They are what keeps the balance of good vs evil or part of it. They are the creature in the night that you hope not to encounter. The creature that gives you nightmares or one of them. Their purpose is to give you a reason to play a game of good vs evil. They are the evil or part of it.
Well, even Obould isn't that great: he's still pretty evil, but rather more orderly and can actually look into the future, with a decent enough vision for all orcs.
Besides Obould, orcs can also manage just fine in the southern lands of Durpar, where one, or even a drow, could walk into a store and start bartering without anyone batting an eye.
Actually they have the greatest purpose. They are a constant threat to humanity and other goodly races. They are what keeps the balance of good vs evil or part of it. They are the creature in the night that you hope not to encounter. The creature that gives you nightmares or one of them. Their purpose is to give you a reason to play a game of good vs evil. They are the evil or part of it.
It depends on the game: in some games, a horde of rampaging orcs is the evil side of the equation, but the operative words even there are "horde" and "rampaging", not "orcs". In other games, the evil is demons, or something even worse: perhaps it starts with an orc horde, until you figure out they've been manipulated by an even more ancient beast?
There are many shades in these things, and as usual, black and white don't really work.
Actually they have the greatest purpose. They are a constant threat to humanity and other goodly races. They are what keeps the balance of good vs evil or part of it. They are the creature in the night that you hope not to encounter. The creature that gives you nightmares or one of them. Their purpose is to give you a reason to play a game of good vs evil. They are the evil or part of it.
It depends on the game: in some games, a horde of rampaging orcs is the evil side of the equation, but the operative words even there are "horde" and "rampaging", not "orcs". In other games, the evil is demons, or something even worse: perhaps it starts with an orc horde, until you figure out they've been manipulated by an even more ancient beast?
There are many shades in these things, and as usual, black and white don't really work.
I don't really understand what you mean by it doesn't work. It's just a fantasy story. Anything can work that you want to work. Orcs can be anything you want them to be. I'm just voicing my feelings on what i think is best. As I've said I find the greys that have been added more and more to make things a lot more boring. You can't really fear an evil that isn't truly evil. In a fantasy game anything can be truly evil if you say it is.
Well, even Obould isn't that great: he's still pretty evil, but rather more orderly and can actually look into the future, with a decent enough vision for all orcs.
Besides Obould, orcs can also manage just fine in the southern lands of Durpar, where one, or even a drow, could walk into a store and start bartering without anyone batting an eye.
Obould's just the best example I'm familiar with, but regardless of his possible/probable Lawful/Neutral Evil alignment, he's still all right in my book.
I don't really understand what you mean by it doesn't work. It's just a fantasy story. Anything can work that you want to work. Orcs can be anything you want them to be. I'm just voicing my feelings on what i think is best. As I've said I find the greys that have been added more and more to make things a lot more boring. You can't really fear an evil that isn't truly evil. In a fantasy game anything can be truly evil if you say it is.
But again, even a fantasy game needs at least a bit of reality to cling upon, or else it falls apart entirely. You can't have a sky be green and the sun black, or gravity upside-down, or there being no explanation beyond "Because they're evil!" for the paladin to be unable to redeem a mortal creature that just happens to be of a different race.
Fantasy can have things that could never be in the real world, but it can only go so far, before it stops being fantasy and starts being ridiculous.
I don't really understand what you mean by it doesn't work. It's just a fantasy story. Anything can work that you want to work. Orcs can be anything you want them to be. I'm just voicing my feelings on what i think is best. As I've said I find the greys that have been added more and more to make things a lot more boring. You can't really fear an evil that isn't truly evil. In a fantasy game anything can be truly evil if you say it is.
The danger that isn't obvious always scares me a great deal more. If you can point to an orc and say "that is what evil is," then you feel much safer at home. In a world of greys, anybody can be your enemy, at any time.
I don't really understand what you mean by it doesn't work. It's just a fantasy story. Anything can work that you want to work. Orcs can be anything you want them to be. I'm just voicing my feelings on what i think is best. As I've said I find the greys that have been added more and more to make things a lot more boring. You can't really fear an evil that isn't truly evil. In a fantasy game anything can be truly evil if you say it is.
But again, even a fantasy game needs at least a bit of reality to cling upon, or else it falls apart entirely. You can't have a sky be green and the sun black, or gravity upside-down, or there being no explanation beyond "Because they're evil!" for the paladin to be unable to redeem a mortal creature that just happens to be of a different race.
Fantasy can have things that could never be in the real world, but it can only go so far, before it stops being fantasy and starts being ridiculous.
I don't see why there would need to be an in depth explanation of why something is evil. When I watched fantasy movies as a kid I could something was evil when watching it and it scared me. When watching the hobbit movie for instance I was scarred intensely by all the monsters in it. The Ogres, Orcs, Goblins, etc were all very scary. I feel that is far more important in a fantasy game of good vs evil than having a realistic image of orcs, how they grew up, and how they live. They live in squalor. Many times in dark caverns. They are created by evil gods and other creatures. They often kill each other. They eat children. I'm sure I can make up a good enough back story if I really wanted to.
I don't see why there would need to be an in depth explanation of why something is evil. When I watched fantasy movies as a kid I could something was evil when watching it and it scared me. When watching the hobbit movie for instance I was scarred intensely by all the monsters in it. The Ogres, Orcs, Goblins, etc were all very scary. I feel that is far more important in a fantasy game of good vs evil than having a realistic image of orcs, how they grew up, and how they live. They live in squalor. Many times in dark caverns. They are created by evil gods and other creatures. They often kill each other. They eat children. I'm sure I can make up a good enough back story if I really wanted to.
Why do you need to bring good and evil into it at all? Just have a bunch of orcs raid a village and the heroes try to stop them: the notions of good and evil, the orcs being irredeemably vile creatures and the heroes being the good guys, don't need to even come to it. You only need to have the aggressors and the defenders in such a simple case, and them to behave accordingly.
@UnknownQuantity Because if there's no explanation to why someone is evil, then they are shallow, stupid and one-dimensional. There is always a logical reason why something happens.
If the game said "these are the bad guys" then it wouldn't be a DnD RPG, it would be a fairy-tale.
I don't see why there would need to be an in depth explanation of why something is evil. When I watched fantasy movies as a kid I could something was evil when watching it and it scared me. When watching the hobbit movie for instance I was scarred intensely by all the monsters in it. The Ogres, Orcs, Goblins, etc were all very scary. I feel that is far more important in a fantasy game of good vs evil than having a realistic image of orcs, how they grew up, and how they live. They live in squalor. Many times in dark caverns. They are created by evil gods and other creatures. They often kill each other. They eat children. I'm sure I can make up a good enough back story if I really wanted to.
Why do you need to bring good and evil into it at all? Just have a bunch of orcs raid a village and the heroes try to stop them: the notions of good and evil, the orcs being irredeemably vile creatures and the heroes being the good guys, don't need to even come to it. You only need to have the aggressors and the defenders in such a simple case, and them to behave accordingly.
It works in the real world, too.
I guess because that is not fun. I would like to portray a good protagonist like in fantasy book stories. I don't want to portray the grey character who encounters grey situations left and right. I already do that in real life. Having an encounter like that and having to choose to save the orc women and children is a very grey area that I don't want to encounter in a fantasy world of good vs evil with heroes and villains. It takes away from the desire to exterminate the foul orcs. That is part of the fun of playing in a fantasy world. You can exterminate evil things with impunity.
@UnknownQuantity That's a boring world that gets old very, very fast. I wouldn't want Sarevok to be "mwahaha, I'm EVIL! And I do evil things!". I want motivations, I want a backstory, I don't want an idiot that does stuff for no reason.
I guess because that is not fun. I would like to portray a good protagonist like in fantasy book stories. I don't want to portray the grey character who encounters grey situations left and right. I already do that in real life. Having an encounter like that and having to choose to save the orc women and children is a very grey area that I don't want to encounter in a fantasy world of good vs evil with heroes and villains. It takes away from the desire to exterminate the foul orcs. That is part of the fun of playing in a fantasy world. You can exterminate evil things with impunity.
That is a child's way of seeing things. Most grown adults could not get into that sort of a game because it is just too unrealistic and out-there.
@Chow And before someone goes "lol how can a fantasy world be realistic?", I will say that it should be realistic in relation to the fantasy setting. It's not reality, it's an alternate world.
There are plenty of RPGs that are childish like that with evil wizards and all. I think Torchlight is something like that where it's more cartoony. That's not DnD, not Forgotten Realms and certaintly not Baldur's Gate.
Well, I haven't played Torchlight, but does it actually go on its way to describe you as the good guy, and the people you kill as the bad guys, with no middleground or gray area, or possibility of redemption or fall?
If it doesn't, then I'm cool with it. Perfectly fine with murderfests if morality doesn't come into them at all: once it does, though, things start to get muddy.
To be honest, I have no idea. It was an example to point out that there are games out there that don't make a deal out of morality and go "these are the bad guys, kill them". Like Diablo, where you are always the good guy and you can kill anything that's killable and you don't make any moral choices.
When I play DnD RPGs, I expect more mature themes and serious choices. Like The Witcher or the Infinity Engine games etc.
I guess because that is not fun. I would like to portray a good protagonist like in fantasy book stories. I don't want to portray the grey character who encounters grey situations left and right. I already do that in real life. Having an encounter like that and having to choose to save the orc women and children is a very grey area that I don't want to encounter in a fantasy world of good vs evil with heroes and villains. It takes away from the desire to exterminate the foul orcs. That is part of the fun of playing in a fantasy world. You can exterminate evil things with impunity.
That is a child's way of seeing things. Most grown adults could not get into that sort of a game because it is just too unrealistic and out-there.
Sometimes a child's way of looking at things is a lot more fun. If you are looking to escape reality for a bit then it's probably not to good of an idea to bring reality into the game.
That is a child's way of seeing things. Most grown adults could not get into that sort of a game because it is just too unrealistic and out-there.
I wholeheartedly disagree. FR to me makes a lot of sense having engrained evil and incarnated into several creatures and races. This makes a lot of sense in this fantasy world, and by the way if you are into analogy of RL, it has in the past made a lot of sense to a lot of human beings, cultures and eras. So if it was entirely plausible to them in RL, then I guess it can be entirely plausible in a fantasy world. Your statement makes little sense. What you should say is that YOU have more fun playing a fantasy game which mechanics are akin to those of MODERN RL; well you have to accept that others do not and should be entitled to their own fantasy world. Which by the way is closer to that of the original creators. And Tolkien.
Which brings us to a potential evolution of FR, and thanks to all for the various links. I am not aware of such potential evolution since my only connection to FR is basically BG, but if this is the current trend, I regret it. Again I do not want to play BG as a modern RL world, I have no interest in that. In any case, BG being stand-alone, I will stick to my fun playing style and be surprised at the way you see things regarding Viconia. Or baby orcs.
Well, with Diablo it's kind of a simple thing, because basically all your enemies are demons - or entirely corrupted by them - which I can perfectly understand to be always evil all the time. I'd still consider it to be dubious to call the protagonist the good guy in those situations, though.
Same deal with Doom, which is one of my favourite games ever.
@UnknownQuantity I'm sorry but that's not Forgotten Realms. FR is not a child's world to kill bad stuff for fun.
@Ignatius You regret that things are not black and white and that exceptions exist? FR is not a modern RL world, it's a fantasy setting with it's own rules.
Yeah, someone can play a Paladin as Lawful Stupid that kills evil on sight. Don't expect us to agree with it. It's your game, though.
Precisely. Knight Templar were quite okay back at their time, but in modern talk they're regardless made to mean something particularly extreme such as yourself.
Knights templars do not exist in today's world. As for your comment about my "extremism", I am flabbergasted. FR is a game there is no extremity in that game, it is just about rules and gameplay. My opnions about drows and orcs in FR are neither extreme nor tolerant or whatever, one could only comment whether they are realistic or off the plot vs what it should be, if there is anything like canon FR.
Again, what sort of orcs are you talking of? In Forgotten Realms, even they can be entirely reasonable under certain circumstances, and not necessarily bloodthirsty killers, even if most of them are.
Being reasonable is one thing, being capable of compassion and goodness quite another. To me orcs are not capable of that.
Equally to what? equally top orcs being able to be good? you must be joking. Let's keep some proportions and generalizations about all this please. The classic example of a few isolated examples rampaging over a generality. Again, it makes no sense. Elves as a race, are better than orcs in moral terms. I hope you won't deny that. Whetehr you like it or not, there is that kind of hierarchy in the FR, contrary to RL.
Are you really saying our modern day world is free of violence and warfare? There are plenty of wars to take part at.
I am saying overall the world is infinitely less violent than what it has been. There has been 99 murders last year in a huge city like London. That is ridiculously low compared to previous eras. I will however give you than the potential for violence, even huge violence, is and will always be there.
Baldur's Gate is really overall kind of a shallow game, even if it tries to be an RPG. On tabletop, or with games like Planescape Torment, these things go much deeper.
There have been examples of good orcs and other decent sort of monster characters for decades, even discounting BG and Drizzt. I remember a crying gnoll kid in one module that you could help out.
You're free to ignore all these implications and just go with full Smite mode, destroying everything you perceive as belonging to an evil race, but at the same time you're cutting out a whole lot of depth and good stuff from the games.
Like Diablo, where you are always the good guy and you can kill anything that's killable and you don't make any moral choices.
Are we saying that there are no rgeys at all? that everyone evil is killable and that it's tha simple? no we're not, our view is as complex as yours but within our views there are several very real incernations of evilness. Unredeemable evilness. That makes a lot more sense to us in FR, and is more fun to play. And does not remove any bit of complexity.
@UnknownQuantity I'm sorry but that's not Forgotten Realms. FR is not a child's world to kill bad stuff for fun.
@Ignatius You regret that things are not black and white and that exceptions exist? FR is not a modern RL world, it's a fantasy setting with it's own rules.
Yeah, someone can play a Paladin as Lawful Stupid that kills evil on sight. Don't expect us to agree with it. It's your game, though.
I plan to do so happily. I've played enough games in my life where I struggled with moral decisions over fantasy characters and fantasy situations. As an adult I can enjoy the simplicity of smiting evil at it's roots without need for worry weather evil is really evil or not.
The presence of an overwhelming evil does not mean that the orcs or whatever it uses are likewise all evil and irredeemable. It may be just a game, but it needs to have a certain amount of verisimilitude and internal consistency, or else it just falls apart.
Why would it be inconsistent to believe that in FR orcs were created evil, by divine forces? I don't understand, it is perfectly plausible in a fantasy game, plenty of RL human cultures in the past believed in that kind of stuff.
Now demons, or some eldritch Cthulhu-like abominations, or whatever? Those I could get behind as acting all evil.
Why? you should offeer them a kind hand and re-deem them as well. Seeing them as unredeemable is inconsistent, they most certainly have a heart deep down and feel pain and jealousy and all, and you know what? they're probably victims. Let's save them.
I plan to do so happily. I've played enough games in my life where I struggled with moral decisions over fantasy characters and fantasy situations. As an adult I can enjoy the simplicity of smiting evil at it's roots without need for worry weather evil is really evil or not.
Are we saying that there are no rgeys at all? that everyone evil is killable and that it's tha simple? no we're not, our view is as complex as yours but within our views there are several very real incernations of evilness. Unredeemable evilness. That makes a lot more sense to us in FR, and is more fun to play. And does not remove any bit of complexity.
Then neither of you should bring good and evil into it at all. You have heroes and villains, that's it.
There's more than enough complexity there for you. No need to make the attacking orcs or mongols all automatically evil that murder the good elves for fun.
Perhaps they wouldn't raise an elven baby, but many FR orcs started to become a lot more civil during and especially after the reign of King Obould Many-Arrows I. In the current iteration of the setting, The Kingdom of Many Arrows is a full-fledged sovereign nature that trades amicably with surrounding nations like Mirabar.
No creature's nature is set in stone. Others have already mentioned Falls-From-Grace and numerous renegade drow.
Then as I said, they're different orcs than what In know off in FR. And different from BG's orcs and goblins and such.
I plan to do so happily. I've played enough games in my life where I struggled with moral decisions over fantasy characters and fantasy situations. As an adult I can enjoy the simplicity of smiting evil at it's roots without need for worry weather evil is really evil or not.
Are we saying that there are no rgeys at all? that everyone evil is killable and that it's tha simple? no we're not, our view is as complex as yours but within our views there are several very real incernations of evilness. Unredeemable evilness. That makes a lot more sense to us in FR, and is more fun to play. And does not remove any bit of complexity.
Then neither of you should bring good and evil into it at all. You have heroes and villains, that's it.
There's more than enough complexity there for you. No need to make the attacking orcs or mongols all automatically evil that murder the good elves for fun.
You offend my good senses. What are villains and heroes without good and evil? What is a story without good vs evil? What is a good story without a truly evil evil in the world? What is a dwarf if it's just an ugly short human? What is an elf if it's just a tall skinny human with pointy ears?
You offend my good senses. What are villains and heroes without good and evil? What is a story without good vs evil? What is a good story without a truly evil evil in the world? What is a dwarf if it's just an ugly short human? What is an elf if it's just a tall skinny human with pointy ears?
Are you really saying the only difference between dwarves, elves, and humans is their alignment?
For a story without good and evil, try the Game of Thrones, or basically anything else written in the last fifty years or so. Even Harry Potter has very little of it.
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Besides Obould, orcs can also manage just fine in the southern lands of Durpar, where one, or even a drow, could walk into a store and start bartering without anyone batting an eye.
There are many shades in these things, and as usual, black and white don't really work.
Fantasy can have things that could never be in the real world, but it can only go so far, before it stops being fantasy and starts being ridiculous.
It works in the real world, too.
Because if there's no explanation to why someone is evil, then they are shallow, stupid and one-dimensional.
There is always a logical reason why something happens.
If the game said "these are the bad guys" then it wouldn't be a DnD RPG, it would be a fairy-tale.
That's a boring world that gets old very, very fast. I wouldn't want Sarevok to be "mwahaha, I'm EVIL! And I do evil things!". I want motivations, I want a backstory, I don't want an idiot that does stuff for no reason.
And before someone goes "lol how can a fantasy world be realistic?", I will say that it should be realistic in relation to the fantasy setting. It's not reality, it's an alternate world.
There are plenty of RPGs that are childish like that with evil wizards and all. I think Torchlight is something like that where it's more cartoony. That's not DnD, not Forgotten Realms and certaintly not Baldur's Gate.
If it doesn't, then I'm cool with it. Perfectly fine with murderfests if morality doesn't come into them at all: once it does, though, things start to get muddy.
Like Diablo, where you are always the good guy and you can kill anything that's killable and you don't make any moral choices.
When I play DnD RPGs, I expect more mature themes and serious choices. Like The Witcher or the Infinity Engine games etc.
Which brings us to a potential evolution of FR, and thanks to all for the various links. I am not aware of such potential evolution since my only connection to FR is basically BG, but if this is the current trend, I regret it. Again I do not want to play BG as a modern RL world, I have no interest in that. In any case, BG being stand-alone, I will stick to my fun playing style and be surprised at the way you see things regarding Viconia. Or baby orcs.
Same deal with Doom, which is one of my favourite games ever. I thought I mentioned that Tolkien didn't like the idea of all-evil orcs either.
I'm sorry but that's not Forgotten Realms. FR is not a child's world to kill bad stuff for fun.
@Ignatius
You regret that things are not black and white and that exceptions exist? FR is not a modern RL world, it's a fantasy setting with it's own rules.
Yeah, someone can play a Paladin as Lawful Stupid that kills evil on sight. Don't expect us to agree with it. It's your game, though.
There have been examples of good orcs and other decent sort of monster characters for decades, even discounting BG and Drizzt. I remember a crying gnoll kid in one module that you could help out.
You're free to ignore all these implications and just go with full Smite mode, destroying everything you perceive as belonging to an evil race, but at the same time you're cutting out a whole lot of depth and good stuff from the games.
There's more than enough complexity there for you. No need to make the attacking orcs or mongols all automatically evil that murder the good elves for fun.
For a story without good and evil, try the Game of Thrones, or basically anything else written in the last fifty years or so. Even Harry Potter has very little of it.