There's some kinks to work out, so if that's important to you, then maybe wait until the next patch.
@Aosaw do patches work retrospectively with saved games (in general terms not just Shadow Dancers)? I am starting my first play through of EE and I hope to use the final save game for BG2 EE if possible.
Yes, regarding the abilities effect, they do. Regarding other bugs (Like : AREA-related bugs, or proficiency bugs, or the amount of time an ability granted from a kit can be used), these won't be affected by a patch as soon as your save has been impacted by the bug (IE.: As soon as you get to the bugged area, you're screwed even if the area is patched, unless you load up a previous save)
There's no diff to a shadow dancer and a thief with a handful of invisibility potions, or that staff in bg2 that turns you invisible or that short sword that has a chance to turn you invisible
I want to like them but having to dual from thief to something isn't so exciting
There's no diff to a shadow dancer and a thief with a handful of invisibility potions, or that staff in bg2 that turns you invisible or that short sword that has a chance to turn you invisible
I want to like them but having to dual from thief to something isn't so exciting
- Staff of the magi is a well known cheesy item that's totally OP. - there s a huge difference between a chance to turn invisible, and beeing invisible at will at the touch of a button - invisibility potions have a cost attached (IE : no way to cast a spell the same round) stealth does not have this drawback. - stealth + non detection makes you immune to true seeing - there's only one enemy that can see through invisibility in BG1, making soloing as a Shadow dancer a breeze.
In some ways, yes. Items and abilities will be affected, specific creature files won't.
Basically, all I care about is my actual charname not being bugged (My halfling dagger fanatic of a shadow dancer is really growing on me). Does this mean that the kits of already created charnames can or can not be fixed? I.e. is it possible that I will have to live with charname/kit related bugs that can not be retroactively patched if I go on playing my shadow dancer?
Sorry if that's exactly what you wrote, I just wanted to make sure.
If the character is experiencing bugs with the abilities themselves, those bugs should be fixed; the abilities pull resources from the game itself, not from the save file.
For class progression things, it won't change which abilities you've already acquired. So for example, if you're a dragon disciple and you've gained the +1 AC and +1 Con bonus from X level, and then for some reason the kit is changed in a patch that removes those bonuses at those levels, you won't lose those bonuses because your character has already received them.
I *believe* that's the case even after you level up, but I haven't tested it.
So in a nutshell:
Any ability you've already received, you'll still have. Any ability that currently doesn't work as intended and is later fixed, will be fixed.
Any ability you've already received, you'll still have. Any ability that currently doesn't work as intended and is later fixed, will be fixed.
Ok, I can live with that. I was more worried about say bugs with Shadowstep, that would then be permanent for that particular character, regardless of future patches. Thanks for the heads up!
I'm pretty disappointed about the quality of this release, myself.
I can understand having some minor bugs in new features. But these are glaring bugs, that should never have gone unseen. Anyone testing the class even once can see that it doesn't work properly.
If all of these can't be created properly from the get go due to time constraints, then just release less kits, but ensure that these DO work correctly.
And, please, ensure that you think about the balance of the kits you're creating ... - Dwarven defender will be the most OP defensive kit in the game comes BG2. - Shadow dancers beeing badly overpowered at higher levels (Lulz, Shadow Dancer 10 dualled to anything in BG2)
Shadow dancers were already stupidly powerful due to HIPS in the Neverwinter nights series, I just hope the same mistake won't be made in Baldur's Gate.
I have to agree with some of your comments on testing. I love this game, and I love the devs, but it seems that every patch that corrects bugs and adds content seems to add more bugs too, that then have to be corrected in the next patch. At this rate we will be correcting bugs for the next 407 years.
Of course the alternative is massive testing & fixing & testing & fixing and not releasing for the next 407 years - I vote for the current program of early release and then fix as you go myself.
I just noticed when I was playing around with my test SD that I used to the backstab tests.
Is it intentional when you cast Shadowstep, that it doesn't have casting sounds and it also uses the combat music during your time in the Shadow Plane?
Having done a playthrough as shadowdancer on the beta, I can tell that most (if not all) of the shadowdancer reported bugs weren't present in the beta build I played... No idea what happened with the release build that messed up so many things (mainly 2da files formatting btw or in case of axe profs I guess a column mistake because you'll notice the 4 in axes should be for dwarven defender who gets 5 max instead)
@TheCoffeeGod Shadowstep is basically a short duration Timestop, so that may be the reason it starts the combat counter (thus the battle music) because timestop is an offensive effect (?). Also not the only innate ability without a casting sound.
I've decided to write a bug report on a subject some people on the forum don't count as a bug. But I see it as a bug and will try to substantiate my point of view.
Current behavior:
A human Shadowdancer who has 15 DEX and 17 INT is not able to dual-class to a mage if he doesn't have at least 15 STR and 15 CHA. Also a human Shadowdancer who has 15 DEX and 17 STR is not able to dual-class to a fighter if he doesn't have at least 15 CHA.
Expected behavior: A human Shadowdancer who has 15 DEX and 17 INT is able to dual-class to a mage even if he doesn't have 15 STR and 15 CHA. Also a human Shadowdancer who has 15 DEX and 17 STR is able to dual-class to a fighter even if he doesn't have 15 CHA.
My reasonings.
In BG the rule reads this way: you as a human need 15 in your base stat for your CLASS (15 STR for fighters, 15 STR and 15 CON for rangers, 15 DEX for rogues, etc.) and 17 in the class you want to jump into (17 WIS for cleric, 17 INT for mage, both 17 WIS and 17 CHA for druids, etc.) to have the option to dual-class.
So, an option to dual-class is connected with having at least 15 in the base stat for the current CLASS and having at least 17 in the base stat for the future CLASS.
Every class in the game has it's own base stat (stats). They don't change inside the class depending on what kit is used. For example, archers and stalkers have the same primary stats - STR and CON despite all their differences. Primary stats change only from a class to a class not from a kit to a kit inside the same class. So, one rule is implemented for the class without exceptions for particular kits of this class.
But in the case of a Shadowdancer we see the odd behavior. It's a thief kit but has not only DEX as a primary stat but also STR and CHA. So if you want to dual-class him you should take into account not only one thieve's primary stat and a primary stat of the second class but also STR and CHA.
But in the case of a Shadowdancer we see the odd behavior. It's a thief kit but has not only DEX as a primary stat but also STR and CHA. So if you want to dual-class him you should take into account not only one thieve's primary stat and a primary stat of the second class but also STR and CHA.
it's not a bug, it's a feature On a serious note it was obviously made for balance - otherwise you would get too overpowered char.
Every class in the game has it's own base stat (stats). They don't change inside the class depending on what kit is used. For example, archers and stalkers have the same primary stats - STR and CON despite all their differences. Primary stats change only from a class to a class not from a kit to a kit inside the same class. So, one rule is implemented for the class without exceptions for particular kits of this class.
All the different specialist mages have a different, additional stat requirement (in addition to INT). Blackguards have lower charisma and wisdom requirements than other paladins.
Every class in the game has it's own base stat (stats). They don't change inside the class depending on what kit is used. For example, archers and stalkers have the same primary stats - STR and CON despite all their differences. Primary stats change only from a class to a class not from a kit to a kit inside the same class. So, one rule is implemented for the class without exceptions for particular kits of this class.
All the different specialist mages have a different, additional stat requirement (in addition to INT). Blackguards have lower charisma and wisdom requirements than other paladins.
+ Normal Monks require 9 Dex, Con and Wis, but both monk kits up the Con requirement to 11.
+ Normal Sorcerers require a Int and Cha of 9, Dragon Disciples require Cha 15.
+ Dwarven Defenders require Str 12, Dex 9 and Con 16.
It's simply NOT TRUE that stats in BGEE depend on your base class. They clearly depend on your KIT. This may be different to PnP rules, but it is obviously a deliberate change, NOT a bug.
Well, specialist mages can hardly be called kits. And it's the only exception in the vanilla game that has a logic explanation: different schools are opposed to each other. I can't say that any thief kits are opposed to each other. I don't see much difference between assassins and shadowdancers from this point of view.
The examples Fardragon wrote about all became available only in BG:EE. Moreover, they ALL cannot be dualled at all. So they cannot be used as a proof the topic I raised is not a bug.
BTW, I think that those requirements for both monk kits, DD and DD can be changed in a patch.
The examples Fardragon wrote about all became available only in BG:EE. Moreover, they ALL cannot be dualled at all. So they cannot be used as a proof the topic I raised is not a bug.
It proves the minium stats where a DELIBERATE change. By definition a deliberate change is not a bug.
The developers DELIBERATLY gave Shadowdancers a minimum Cha (for whaver reason, it doesn't matter). The game then CORRECTLY applies the rule that requires any stat with a minimum value to be at least 15 in order to dual class.
BTW, I think that those requirements for both monk kits, DD and DD can be changed in a patch.
Sure, but why should they, when they obviously went to the trouble to set them to their current values?
It's great to hear the definite answer at last. The thing I like most about this forum is the ability to hear an official point in a fairly short time.
Comments
Regarding other bugs (Like : AREA-related bugs, or proficiency bugs, or the amount of time an ability granted from a kit can be used), these won't be affected by a patch as soon as your save has been impacted by the bug (IE.: As soon as you get to the bugged area, you're screwed even if the area is patched, unless you load up a previous save)
I want to like them but having to dual from thief to something isn't so exciting
- there s a huge difference between a chance to turn invisible, and beeing invisible at will at the touch of a button
- invisibility potions have a cost attached (IE : no way to cast a spell the same round) stealth does not have this drawback.
- stealth + non detection makes you immune to true seeing
- there's only one enemy that can see through invisibility in BG1, making soloing as a Shadow dancer a breeze.
Sorry if that's exactly what you wrote, I just wanted to make sure.
For class progression things, it won't change which abilities you've already acquired. So for example, if you're a dragon disciple and you've gained the +1 AC and +1 Con bonus from X level, and then for some reason the kit is changed in a patch that removes those bonuses at those levels, you won't lose those bonuses because your character has already received them.
I *believe* that's the case even after you level up, but I haven't tested it.
So in a nutshell:
Any ability you've already received, you'll still have.
Any ability that currently doesn't work as intended and is later fixed, will be fixed.
Progress - not perfection...
Moved to BGEE Bugs
Added to Bug list thread.
If anyone finds another Shadowdancer bug thread, let me know. It's better to have all information in a single thread.
Is it intentional when you cast Shadowstep, that it doesn't have casting sounds and it also uses the combat music during your time in the Shadow Plane?
@TheCoffeeGod Shadowstep is basically a short duration Timestop, so that may be the reason it starts the combat counter (thus the battle music) because timestop is an offensive effect (?). Also not the only innate ability without a casting sound.
Current behavior:
A human Shadowdancer who has 15 DEX and 17 INT is not able to dual-class to a mage if he doesn't have at least 15 STR and 15 CHA.
Also a human Shadowdancer who has 15 DEX and 17 STR is not able to dual-class to a fighter if he doesn't have at least 15 CHA.
Expected behavior:
A human Shadowdancer who has 15 DEX and 17 INT is able to dual-class to a mage even if he doesn't have 15 STR and 15 CHA.
Also a human Shadowdancer who has 15 DEX and 17 STR is able to dual-class to a fighter even if he doesn't have 15 CHA.
My reasonings.
In BG the rule reads this way: you as a human need 15 in your base stat for your CLASS (15 STR for fighters, 15 STR and 15 CON for rangers, 15 DEX for rogues, etc.) and 17 in the class you want to jump into (17 WIS for cleric, 17 INT for mage, both 17 WIS and 17 CHA for druids, etc.) to have the option to dual-class.
So, an option to dual-class is connected with having at least 15 in the base stat for the current CLASS and having at least 17 in the base stat for the future CLASS.
Every class in the game has it's own base stat (stats). They don't change inside the class depending on what kit is used. For example, archers and stalkers have the same primary stats - STR and CON despite all their differences. Primary stats change only from a class to a class not from a kit to a kit inside the same class. So, one rule is implemented for the class without exceptions for particular kits of this class.
But in the case of a Shadowdancer we see the odd behavior. It's a thief kit but has not only DEX as a primary stat but also STR and CHA. So if you want to dual-class him you should take into account not only one thieve's primary stat and a primary stat of the second class but also STR and CHA.
The mistake here is obvious.
On a serious note it was obviously made for balance - otherwise you would get too overpowered char.
How can a character with 10 STR, 15 DEX, 17 INT and 12 CHA be more overpowered than the same one with 15 STR, 15 DEX, 17 INT and 15 CHA?
+ Normal Sorcerers require a Int and Cha of 9, Dragon Disciples require Cha 15.
+ Dwarven Defenders require Str 12, Dex 9 and Con 16.
It's simply NOT TRUE that stats in BGEE depend on your base class. They clearly depend on your KIT. This may be different to PnP rules, but it is obviously a deliberate change, NOT a bug.
The examples Fardragon wrote about all became available only in BG:EE. Moreover, they ALL cannot be dualled at all. So they cannot be used as a proof the topic I raised is not a bug.
BTW, I think that those requirements for both monk kits, DD and DD can be changed in a patch.
The developers DELIBERATLY gave Shadowdancers a minimum Cha (for whaver reason, it doesn't matter). The game then CORRECTLY applies the rule that requires any stat with a minimum value to be at least 15 in order to dual class. Sure, but why should they, when they obviously went to the trouble to set them to their current values?
If not, I foresee much wailing and gnashing of teeth by people who put points into Set Traps without studying the description.
Thanks a lot!
It's great to hear the definite answer at last. The thing I like most about this forum is the ability to hear an official point in a fairly short time.