@Doom972 Fair enough, and I do understand your desire for this game to be available on your platform of choice. I just think questioning the distribution side is a false argument. I also agree that the game should eventually be released on Steam to serve your market, which is sizable. But there is no reason to release it right away. This would share the revenue too soon.
Steam will take a sizable cut for no reason yet. Beamdog has already done some promotion for this game and wants to cash in on that work. After they've sold as many copies as they can based on that promotional work they will be ready to release on Steam and use that marketing power. But doing so now would waste the previous effort. If this was a brand new game it would be a different story. New games need to hit as many platforms as possible as soon as possible to gain momentum. This is an OLD game and people who haven't heard of it yet will still be there when the Steam release occurs.
Most of this is probably moot anyway since the iPad will be the most likely source of the lion's share of revenue...
I'd like to clarify that this is not an argument against the game itself, but it does mean that I won't buy it, for reasons that I already explained in previous posts.
About Beamdog's profits? That's not my concern, they'll do what's best for them in the end. If they don't want me (or many other Steam users) to buy their game, so be it. I do think, however, that your logic is based on the physical retail model, which means that copies are limited. When a game is sold through digital distribution, supply is unlimited, so losing a certain cut of the money in favor of selling many more copies, would generate more profit. Also, what do you mean by "no reason yet"? Having and maintaining so many servers (in addition to other expenses any business has) costs money you know.
@Doom972 My point was that they will still make all of those extra sales via the Steam platform. They will just wait six months to make them. By doing this they will probably sell about the same amount while protecting their profit on the first twenty or thirty percent of sales. If they release on Steam day one they will lose their extra profit. People who would only know about the game through Steam will still be there when they eventually release. These won't be lost sales, they will be delayed sales. There is a cost associated with that as well, but I bet it will be significantly less than the lost profit if they compete with Steam on day one.
I do realize that you don't care about Beamdog's profits. Many of us do since that will directly affect the likelihood of BG2:EE and further releases. But either way, it doesn't change the rational behind Beamdog's decisions. I believe their strategy is close to what I have described. Release now independently and make as much profit per sale as possible and then release on other platforms to make more sales at a lower percentage. This is the best of both worlds.
Legend of Grimrock way was the best, they were very correct with everybody. I'am not saying Beamdog isnt but I do get a sour taste in my mouth thinking that by buying now I'll not be getting a Steam key when it gets there. That is all I wanted.
@Razor How do you know you won't get a Steam key? I'm not saying you will or will not. But I do think it is very possible that keys will be generated for older sales. And Grimrock is awesome!
@Doom972 My point was that they will still make all of those extra sales via the Steam platform. They will just wait six months to make them. By doing this they will probably sell about the same amount while protecting their profit on the first twenty or thirty percent of sales. If they release on Steam day one they will lose their extra profit. People who would only know about the game through Steam will still be there when they eventually release. These won't be lost sales, they will be delayed sales. There is a cost associated with that as well, but I bet it will be significantly less than the lost profit if they compete with Steam on day one.
I do realize that you don't care about Beamdog's profits. Many of us do since that will directly affect the likelihood of BG2:EE and further releases. But either way, it doesn't change the rational behind Beamdog's decisions. I believe their strategy is close to what I have described. Release now independently and make as much profit per sale as possible and then release on other platforms to make more sales at a lower percentage. This is the best of both worlds.
Not necessarily the best of all worlds, since people might lose interest as time passes.
@Doom972 Among those who have followed the project from the beginning, certainly. But I think that the BG fanbase and Steam userbase are not mutually inclusive. People who have never even heard of BG will see it for the first time, should it ever become available on Steam. And there are the current holdouts who are waiting for a Steam release.
@Doom972 If they haven't lost interest over the last decade they probably won't lose interest over a few months. If people have already heard about the project they are the target audience that Beamdog wants to capture themselves. Those who have not yet heard about it will fall into the audience that Beamdog will pursue later by adding other platforms. Your case is probably a rare example of someone who both is interested in the project already and only willing to support Steam. They will wait for you to buy when it releases on Steam or lose your sale. But the most money will be made by enjoying both worlds.
I don't understand why this thread still has "steam". The developers have already said initially selling via Steam is fiscally impossible due to licensing and development cost.
I've read Steam reportedly takes 30% of sales for themselves (this information is not publicly available though, so people are just making educated guesses). You would have to sell 50% more copies to just make back the same amount you would make if you didn't sell on Steam to begin with. That's a lot more sales required for zero gain.
BD is probably afraid that if sold on Steam, that almost all copies of BG:EE would be bought on Steam, taking a massive cut of the sales that a small company just can't afford.
I would think that the community that supports games like BG would be understanding of that and would make an exception so that games like this can continue being brought to the market. If it wasn't for smaller, and Indie developers, games like BG would have no chance to be made. People need to decide what's more important to them, having all their games in Steam locker or having games like this at all.
Legend of Grimrock way was the best, they were very correct with everybody. I'am not saying Beamdog isnt but I do get a sour taste in my mouth thinking that by buying now I'll not be getting a Steam key when it gets there. That is all I wanted.
That's very short-sited. LoG is a significantly smaller scope project, and was developed by 4 people in a single room office with zero licensing fee's, other than Steam. Beamdog is a much larger company with 15-20 people working on BG:EE as well as much more cost, which means sales margins are going to have to be higher in order for this game to succeed.
I was happy to pay $13 for LoG but BG:EE is going to be a much better value for what you're getting. LoG was fun but wasn't anywhere in the ballpark as BG in terms of game play. Also keep in mind the future of the BG franchise is at stake here when we are talking about the success of sales and profit. BD is not going to make more games like this if they lose money or make little to none on it.
LoG is smaller, no doubt about that, BG is a much better and complete game... Still, LoG was in Steam "top sellers" for weeks! and made a profit they were not expecting and decided to continue working on the game.
Let me remind you that releasing BG:EE on Steam means that (at least) the constant 3.5 Million people online would see it. I always considered that the point of exclusivity was making Beamdog more popular and not because Steam cuts profit... Steam is not as evil as you make it, people really should stop talking % if they don't know them...
While in pre-order, LoG was selling the game -themselves- and getting (maximum?) profit and still gave us a steam key! I don't know if that was agreed with Steam, but it happened.
Anyway! nothing new here, "BG:EE may be released on Steam sometime in the future....."
Still, LoG was in Steam "top sellers" for weeks! and made a profit they were not expecting and decided to continue working on the game.
Profit for a game designed for 4 people, and profit for a game designed by 15-20, are two completely different numbers.
Steam is not as evil as you make it, people really should stop talking % if they don't know them...
I suppose if people don't know then people should also stop talking about how many more sales there will be if it's sold on Steam then too, right?
People are not giving BD credit about the decision to not offer it on Steam. I think that's attacking the intelligence and experience of the developers who are making these decisions.
I still struggle to find the attraction of Steam. I own a couple of games on there, but I don't see much difference between it and other digital distribution platforms, certainly not that much to insist on my games being available on it.
LoG is smaller, no doubt about that, BG is a much better and complete game... Still, LoG was in Steam "top sellers" for weeks! and made a profit they were not expecting and decided to continue working on the game.
Let me remind you that releasing BG:EE on Steam means that (at least) the constant 3.5 Million people online would see it. I always considered that the point of exclusivity was making Beamdog more popular and not because Steam cuts profit... Steam is not as evil as you make it, people really should stop talking % if they don't know them...
While in pre-order, LoG was selling the game -themselves- and getting (maximum?) profit and still gave us a steam key! I don't know if that was agreed with Steam, but it happened.
Anyway! nothing new here, "BG:EE may be released on Steam sometime in the future....."
I don't think it's a question of "Steam is evil because they take our delicious profits!" but rather a question of "We need to make sure that the game's initial release gives us enough revenue to keep making games like this, and the library of Steam games is so huge that there isn't a guarantee that it will do well. And if it does, Steam also takes a commission on any sales made through that client, which means we see less of that revenue."
It's not making a judgment on Steam. They're a business, they need to do their business. But Beamdog is also a business, and 30% commission is a huge number when you're just starting out with a game.
I wonder if there is a price difference (consignment wise) between buying the game through Steam and the developer handing out Steam keys.
I say this because some titles that are sold in physical form are Steam games. I can't imagine that Steam would get the full % from those physical copy that they do from digitally purchased versions.
@vortican: I think it may depend on how serious you are about gaming. There are so many important features, voice chat, news, cloud, integrated server lists, achivements |automatic updates and no install - like Beamdog thankfuly| ingame browser, item system, a mod database, a trading system... should I go on? Steam is the best (And until today mostly loyal and correct to the gaming community) and that is why MANY people want games there.
"I don't see much difference between it and other digital distribution platforms, certainly not that much to insist on my games being available on it. "
There are so. many. differences, but I'am realistic, I dont expect many people here have hundreds+ hours on mobas and mp fps to see all those differences in their full glory...
Now that this is clear, I accept whatever decision Beamdog makes, that is why I have pre-purchased.
If what you are explaining is that Steam is much more multiplayer-oriented/socially-connected than other platforms, then that I can understand. Not everyone is interested in multiplayer games, so they don't consider that aspect of it, and that could be potentially more important to them than the organizational benefits which don't seem to differ from platform to platform.
I do wonder if the same people who are clamoring for a boxed version are some of the same people who are unhappy with this install DRM. Wouldn't those people be just as concerned about the need to connect to Steam to play their games as they would connecting to a server to do an install check?
@Razor Vortican hit the nail on the head. I couldn't care less about any multiplayer benefits. When I want to socialize I invite people over to my house or meet them out in the world. If we want to game we play sports or board games. None of this matters to a digital distribution system.
Most of what you are saying reminds me of Doom972's posts. Steam is probably a far superior game management system. But many of us don't want a management system, and almost everything you listed is outside of the distribution. All I want is to download my game and then be left alone. Amazon is a great distribution channel and they don't offer any of those things either. That's not what distribution means.
I think what people are worried about is people saying "I won't buy it if it doesn't get released on Steam", which I suspect isn't quite what people mean--but rather, "I'd rather wait until it gets released on Steam because it will make it easier to manage in my games library".
Which isn't the same thing. If someone came to you from the future and said that Overhaul will never-ever-ever-ever-ever-EVER release the game on Steam, you would probably go out and buy it straight from Beamdog. You might be a little annoyed, but annoyed and playing Baldur's Gate is better than annoyed and listening to all your friends talk about what a great game it is.
It ultimately comes down to revenue streams. If Baldur's Gate is popular enough that people will buy it no matter what platform it's on, then it's in Overhaul's best interest to maintain a hold on as much of that revenue as possible. More revenue means more freedom to develop new games, which means better games for the players in the long run.
If it's not popular enough that people will buy it even if it's not on Steam, then they'll know that fairly quickly. Once the game is released, they can think about negotiating a deal with Steam, to bring in new players and more revenue.
So ultimately, I'm a fan of releasing on Steam when the time is right. But speaking from my own interests, I'd rather Overhaul get the full $20 from each sale, rather than $14--because that $6 adds up to a whole lot of goodness when it comes time to make a new game.
You can always download BG:EE and add it to Steam, making it just like any other Steam game except you cant update it via Steam. Other features like server browsers etc. are not available in BG:EE no matter if it comes on Steam or not. Will launching on Steam make devs more profit is for them to decide. We don't know the economic side of all this.
One is why should BGEE be on it: (Not because of Steam features, but) because many people choose to buy only on Steam. (Also those 30% share looks quite fake to me) and every indie I know would pay good money to be on Steam -therefore its an advantage not the opposite.
Second: Why do people do that? Thats what I explained(above services), having their other games there, they already use Steam and want it there. Thats it.
Adding a shortcut is the lesser evil, but it does not satisfy when the game could there.
@Razor I am agreeing with you here. I have a ton of games on Steam and although I don't use it any more since I switched to Linux, I understand that Steam is a great way to reach a lot of gamers and advertise your game. And even though I wouldn't be using Steam to play BG:EE anyway, I would like to see it on Steam because I think the game is poorly advertised to players who have never played BG. I am simply saying that we do not know all the factors involved in making such a deal with Valve. Obviously, the management made a decision not to go with Steam on launch and if they are still satisfied with that decision months down the road, I am fine with that.
The reason it's poorly advertised to people who haven't played Baldurs Gate is because people who HAVE played Baldurs Gate are going to be the vast majority of people who are interested in this game. Beamdog isn't stupid. They know that they're simply not going to get a lot of new players. Who wants to play a 15 year old game, even if it has new content? Only people who've played it before. If it's really that expensive to sell on Steam, then I don't blame Beamdog either. It doesn't make any economic sense to bother with all the hassle of getting it on there just to satisfy a small minority of their already small minority of gamers if they're giving up most of their profits. It's the same reason some companies don't bother making cross-platform titles; because they don't want to go through the certification process on XBL or Playstation or whatever.
I've got friends that will only buy games on Steam. I hate this attitude because I've seen what a monopoly on distribution can do to an industry. Wherever there is a monopoly, pricing gets out of control and the industry suffers. Monopolistic pricing means that fewer studios can afford to pay distribution costs and profit margins narrow to the point that Valve becomes the only one to make money in the PC games industry.
This is basically what happened with EBay. They used their monopoly to squeeze every last dime out of sellers - listing fees, final value fees, promotion (advertising) fees, Paypal transaction fees, currency conversion fees, and even registered shipping fees (if you don't use registered mail, you're automatically at fault if a buyer says your package didn't arrive - this has cost me thousands). At the end of the day you only get about 60-70% of the money from your auctions.
There is an an example where a monopoly initially strengthened, then strangled, the entire industry. This is the current state of the PC games industry.
tl;dr: Buying games exclusively on Steam is killing the PC games industry. Please stop.
Somebody else already nailed it (sorry, don't recall the post), the majority of new players will come via the iPad, period. PC players will be (mostly) previous BG players or modern RPG fans who've heard tales of glory, many of whom will not be pleased with the difficulty curve and lack of click-fest mechanics (and I can only hear the wailing and nashing of teeth from this group). @cantrips nailed the other aspect, only supporting one digital store is bad for the industry. I hope if BeamDog goes more than one store deep they go via GoG.com.
Yes I get some people love the Steam community, and the Steam Marketing team appreciates your loyalty, but it's still not a very good reason to pass up a good game because it's on another (arguably very user friendly) store/distribution platform.
Fleabay sucks because of Gaypal and their draconian policies which screw you no matter how the transaction ends up. If you're a buyer, there's no recourse for a seller who doesn't follow through and you can't leave negative ratings. If you're a seller, the buyers can easily screw you. It also doesn't help that Gaypal can freeze your account for no reason at all and steal your money, then make you jump through hoops to get it back, if they decide they want to at all. Then they introduced stores and notice there are so many fewer auctions now than merchants. It's been ruined as an auction house but it's not because there was ever a monopoly. They priced themselves out of that business and it's a shame because it used to be a great site.
I've nothing against Steam and there will always be people who buy exclusively on Steam and people who will never buy anything on Steam. Besides, there are plenty of other clients. There's no danger of a monopoly but I don't think anyone can count on appealing to people considering the state of the industry when they buy a game. Not enough people buy local or have truly altruistic motives to make a huge difference in the state of industries because people can't afford the time investment to think that carefully about every decision or investment they make. Nothing wrong with that either... it's just a fact of life.
It's OK... the number of people who won't buy BG:EE because it isn't on Steam is likely miniscule even compared to the number of people who won't buy it because it has extremely unobtrusive DRM. You could likely count them on two hands. It's not going to impact Beamdog's future plans at all.
@vortican totally agree about ebay and playpal... but about the last part... I dont know about that... The last time Baldurs gate complete edition (classic) was going to be released on Steam there were several threads. At least smallest one had 28K views.
@cantrips: That is just BS. EA would do that, Steam does not do that. You know nothing of the gaming industry. The fact is, thousands did NOT buy games before Steam, piracy you know, the thing killing the pc games industry.
I have no intention of converting people here. I couldnt care less believe me. But I know gaming and I know who hurts it and who fights for it. If people didnt demand Steam devs would still be using crap like GFWL.
@bobsageek: Don't be a troll*. I'am not having a hard time dealing with it. More like dealing with people who talk about Steam without knowing what it has done for PC gaming. Dead as developers used to say. Due to piracy only consoles were worth it. If you don't know this dont talk about pc gaming industry.
Comments
About Beamdog's profits? That's not my concern, they'll do what's best for them in the end. If they don't want me (or many other Steam users) to buy their game, so be it. I do think, however, that your logic is based on the physical retail model, which means that copies are limited. When a game is sold through digital distribution, supply is unlimited, so losing a certain cut of the money in favor of selling many more copies, would generate more profit. Also, what do you mean by "no reason yet"? Having and maintaining so many servers (in addition to other expenses any business has) costs money you know.
I do realize that you don't care about Beamdog's profits. Many of us do since that will directly affect the likelihood of BG2:EE and further releases. But either way, it doesn't change the rational behind Beamdog's decisions. I believe their strategy is close to what I have described. Release now independently and make as much profit per sale as possible and then release on other platforms to make more sales at a lower percentage. This is the best of both worlds.
(but based on mdk2 HD, there won't be steam keys when/if released)
I've read Steam reportedly takes 30% of sales for themselves (this information is not publicly available though, so people are just making educated guesses). You would have to sell 50% more copies to just make back the same amount you would make if you didn't sell on Steam to begin with. That's a lot more sales required for zero gain.
BD is probably afraid that if sold on Steam, that almost all copies of BG:EE would be bought on Steam, taking a massive cut of the sales that a small company just can't afford.
I would think that the community that supports games like BG would be understanding of that and would make an exception so that games like this can continue being brought to the market. If it wasn't for smaller, and Indie developers, games like BG would have no chance to be made. People need to decide what's more important to them, having all their games in Steam locker or having games like this at all. That's very short-sited. LoG is a significantly smaller scope project, and was developed by 4 people in a single room office with zero licensing fee's, other than Steam. Beamdog is a much larger company with 15-20 people working on BG:EE as well as much more cost, which means sales margins are going to have to be higher in order for this game to succeed.
I was happy to pay $13 for LoG but BG:EE is going to be a much better value for what you're getting. LoG was fun but wasn't anywhere in the ballpark as BG in terms of game play. Also keep in mind the future of the BG franchise is at stake here when we are talking about the success of sales and profit. BD is not going to make more games like this if they lose money or make little to none on it.
Let me remind you that releasing BG:EE on Steam means that (at least) the constant 3.5 Million people online would see it. I always considered that the point of exclusivity was making Beamdog more popular and not because Steam cuts profit...
Steam is not as evil as you make it, people really should stop talking % if they don't know them...
While in pre-order, LoG was selling the game -themselves- and getting (maximum?) profit and still gave us a steam key! I don't know if that was agreed with Steam, but it happened.
Anyway! nothing new here, "BG:EE may be released on Steam sometime in the future....."
People are not giving BD credit about the decision to not offer it on Steam. I think that's attacking the intelligence and experience of the developers who are making these decisions.
It's not making a judgment on Steam. They're a business, they need to do their business. But Beamdog is also a business, and 30% commission is a huge number when you're just starting out with a game.
I say this because some titles that are sold in physical form are Steam games. I can't imagine that Steam would get the full % from those physical copy that they do from digitally purchased versions.
Now that this is clear, I accept whatever decision Beamdog makes, that is why I have pre-purchased.
I do wonder if the same people who are clamoring for a boxed version are some of the same people who are unhappy with this install DRM. Wouldn't those people be just as concerned about the need to connect to Steam to play their games as they would connecting to a server to do an install check?
Most of what you are saying reminds me of Doom972's posts. Steam is probably a far superior game management system. But many of us don't want a management system, and almost everything you listed is outside of the distribution. All I want is to download my game and then be left alone. Amazon is a great distribution channel and they don't offer any of those things either. That's not what distribution means.
Steam is a little bit past the point of distribution or drm.
Which isn't the same thing. If someone came to you from the future and said that Overhaul will never-ever-ever-ever-ever-EVER release the game on Steam, you would probably go out and buy it straight from Beamdog. You might be a little annoyed, but annoyed and playing Baldur's Gate is better than annoyed and listening to all your friends talk about what a great game it is.
It ultimately comes down to revenue streams. If Baldur's Gate is popular enough that people will buy it no matter what platform it's on, then it's in Overhaul's best interest to maintain a hold on as much of that revenue as possible. More revenue means more freedom to develop new games, which means better games for the players in the long run.
If it's not popular enough that people will buy it even if it's not on Steam, then they'll know that fairly quickly. Once the game is released, they can think about negotiating a deal with Steam, to bring in new players and more revenue.
So ultimately, I'm a fan of releasing on Steam when the time is right. But speaking from my own interests, I'd rather Overhaul get the full $20 from each sale, rather than $14--because that $6 adds up to a whole lot of goodness when it comes time to make a new game.
Will launching on Steam make devs more profit is for them to decide. We don't know the economic side of all this.
One is why should BGEE be on it: (Not because of Steam features, but) because many people choose to buy only on Steam. (Also those 30% share looks quite fake to me) and every indie I know would pay good money to be on Steam -therefore its an advantage not the opposite.
Second: Why do people do that? Thats what I explained(above services), having their other games there, they already use Steam and want it there. Thats it.
Adding a shortcut is the lesser evil, but it does not satisfy when the game could there.
I am agreeing with you here.
I have a ton of games on Steam and although I don't use it any more since I switched to Linux, I understand that Steam is a great way to reach a lot of gamers and advertise your game.
And even though I wouldn't be using Steam to play BG:EE anyway, I would like to see it on Steam because I think the game is poorly advertised to players who have never played BG.
I am simply saying that we do not know all the factors involved in making such a deal with Valve. Obviously, the management made a decision not to go with Steam on launch and if they are still satisfied with that decision months down the road, I am fine with that.
This is basically what happened with EBay. They used their monopoly to squeeze every last dime out of sellers - listing fees, final value fees, promotion (advertising) fees, Paypal transaction fees, currency conversion fees, and even registered shipping fees (if you don't use registered mail, you're automatically at fault if a buyer says your package didn't arrive - this has cost me thousands). At the end of the day you only get about 60-70% of the money from your auctions.
There is an an example where a monopoly initially strengthened, then strangled, the entire industry. This is the current state of the PC games industry.
tl;dr: Buying games exclusively on Steam is killing the PC games industry. Please stop.
Yes I get some people love the Steam community, and the Steam Marketing team appreciates your loyalty, but it's still not a very good reason to pass up a good game because it's on another (arguably very user friendly) store/distribution platform.
I've nothing against Steam and there will always be people who buy exclusively on Steam and people who will never buy anything on Steam. Besides, there are plenty of other clients. There's no danger of a monopoly but I don't think anyone can count on appealing to people considering the state of the industry when they buy a game. Not enough people buy local or have truly altruistic motives to make a huge difference in the state of industries because people can't afford the time investment to think that carefully about every decision or investment they make. Nothing wrong with that either... it's just a fact of life.
It's OK... the number of people who won't buy BG:EE because it isn't on Steam is likely miniscule even compared to the number of people who won't buy it because it has extremely unobtrusive DRM. You could likely count them on two hands. It's not going to impact Beamdog's future plans at all.
I dont know about that... The last time Baldurs gate complete edition (classic) was going to be released on Steam there were several threads. At least smallest one had 28K views.
@cantrips: That is just BS. EA would do that, Steam does not do that. You know nothing of the gaming industry.
The fact is, thousands did NOT buy games before Steam, piracy you know, the thing killing the pc games industry.
I have no intention of converting people here. I couldnt care less believe me. But I know gaming and I know who hurts it and who fights for it. If people didnt demand Steam devs would still be using crap like GFWL.
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