If I understand this mod's readme.pdf and the IWD:EE manual correctly, this mod actually nerfs the monk's damage output compared to unmodded IWD:EE. I plotted the average damage rolls per level in each case:
The only level where this mod gives a higher damage, is level 5. For all other levels, an unmodded monk would give the same or higher damage.
Is this correct?
PS: Also, why is the best damage-dealing kit restricted to Halfling...
The main purpose of the earlier levels of the mod is to make it so that monks aren't horrendously useless at low levels. While the average damage per hit is reduced slightly, monks have more AC at lower levels and their fists are considered to be magical weapons sooner.
So yes, damage is slightly reduced, but durability and enchantment bonus are both greatly increased, especially at lower levels. The reason that the Hin Fist has the best damage is because most of the source material talks about how Hin Fist monks are especially good at precise strikes (hence, critical damage bonuses).
The ReadMe.pdf contradicts itself on this point: "Begins with a base Armor Class of 7. (-1 every 3 levels, maximum -3 at 21st)"
It either needs to say "every 2 levels", or "-3 at 31st". If it's every two levels, then that would mean a flat 2 AC bonus compared to the unmodded monk, which is indeed nice.
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Also, the ReadMe.pdf mentions only BG1 and BG2 merchants when it talks about the new monk items. Do these items not become available when the mod is installed in IWD:EE?
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Btw, I really like the general flavor of these kits, and how they're designed around special fist attacks and immunities. I just hope that if I create such a monk in this game, he'll be powerful enough to compete with well-equipped fighters and paladins...
@ineth, I don't think I ever got around to placing the items in IWDEE. If my release of Tome and Blood goes well, I might be able to add the monk items to various loot tables and merchants in the game in a couple months. If you have any suggestions about item placement, feel free to provide them.
If you want to add some as loot drops instead, note that, if I remember correctly, the Enhanced Edition of the game has already added a monk item as a random drop in level 4 of Dragon's Eye. So you might want to add yours in other parts of the game to spread them out a little.
It has recently come to my attention that v2.0 has added a lot of new functionalities that were previously not possible. I figured that Monastic Orders hasn't been updated in a while, so here are some new features that will be coming to this mod soon:
- Wisdom based Armor Class bonus - An overhaul of abilities in favor of a ki-points system. - Improved damage progression - IWDEE and SOD compatibility. - EDIT: Several modal melee abilities (Flurry of Blows, Ki Strike, and an order appropriate ability)
If there is anything that you would like to see in this mod in particular, let me know.
Now when you say SOD compatibility, does the current version actually break anything that would prevent me from doing a front to back BG1-SOD-BG2 run? (It's really difficult to understand what would or wouldn't work...)
Also, curious if this mod does anything with paper dolls. Like I know that if I roll a Halfling monk, using the no-race-restrictions modification, the doll defaults to a normal male human, because there is no "Halfling monk" paperdoll.
Will the Mod be updated and if yes how long do you think it will take? I'm not trying to rush you or anything, but i really enjoy the Mod and would like to play through SoD with it at some point.
@EnchanterTim , working on designing stuff for the update (my design philosophies regarding kits and balance have changed slightly so I'm trying to improve the kits in addition to the needed compatibility updates).
No ETA because all of my final projects and exams are coming up but at the absolute latest probably early summer...
Here is a rough sketch of the new "base" Monk class.
Features: - Weapons: Club, Dagger, Katana, Longsword, Scimitar, Shortsword, Spear, Staff; Dart, Sling (1) - Single Weapon Style: (2) - No armor, shields or helmets - May use Detect Traps and Stealth. Gains 10 skill points to distribute each level. - Gains a +1 bonus to Armor Class for every 2 points of Wisdom above 10. - Gains a +2 bonus to movement speed. This bonus improves by +1 every 5 levels. - May make 1 unarmed attack per round, plus an additional 1/2 attack per round for every 5 levels. Your unarmed attacks improve with level as follows: Level 1-3: d6 Level 4-7: d8; treated as +1 magical weapons. Level 8-11: d10; treated as +2 magical weapons. Level 12-15: 2d6; treated as +3 magical weapons. Level 16-19: 2d8; treated as +4 magical weapons. Level 20+: 2d10; treated as +5 magical weapons. - 3rd level: Your base Armor Class decreases to 9, and decreases by 1 more at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels. - 4th level: Gains a +2 bonus to saving throws vs. Enchantment spells. - 5th level: Becomes immune to all diseases. - 9th level: Becomes immune to charm and fear. - 11th level: Becomes immune to poison. - 15th level: Gains a +4 bonus to saving throws vs. spells. - 20th level: Becomes immune to damage from non-magical weapons.
Modal Abilities (only one of these can be active at any given time) - 1st: Stunning Blow [modal]: while active, your successful melee attacks force the target to save vs. spell or be stunned for 2 rounds. - 1st: Flurry of Blows [modal]: while active, you have +1 Attack per Round. - 4th: Ki Strike [modal]: your melee attacks deal bonus magic damage and are treated as weapons of an enchantment value equivalent to your monk fists (e.g. at 4th level, +1 magic damage and treated as +1 weapons)
Abilities (each usable 1/day) - 5th: Wholeness of Body: You regain hit points equal to twice your level (maximum 40). - 8th: Abundant Step: Slip into the Astral Plane for 1 round and move while others remain frozen in time. You cannot attack during this time. - 14th: Quivering Palm: Your next successful melee attack forces the target to save vs. Spell or die. A save penalty is applied at higher levels.
There are a couple major changes. I have removed magic resistance from the base monk (in favor of a bonus to saves vs. spells), in order to have it be a perk for certain magic-oriented monks (such as the upcoming Arcane Fist and the Shining Hand Monk), as well as to smooth out monk's power curves at higher levels.
I have also introduced a set of three modal abilities, that augment not only fist attacks, but all melee attacks. This should provide monks with some incentive to use weapons over just unarmed attacks; unarmed attacks from monks will still be quite powerful and a reliable source of damage at higher levels, but these changes are intended to allow monk players who would like to have their monk occasionally use weapons to not feel as if they are actively hurting their power level.
The final major change is that the monks' AC bonus has been split and the progression revised. Thanks to some new functionality introduced in the 2.0 patch, I am able to now give monks Wisdom-based AC (similar to 3E/PF/5E). This will make Wisdom an important stat for monks, so be prepared for MAD (multiple ability dependence). In order to offset this bonus, I have changed monks base AC progression to be slower and to resolve faster; it now ranges from base AC 9 at 3rd to base AC 5 at 19th). This allows monks to gain benefits from Bracers of AC at lower levels, but without having to depend on them at higher levels (thus allowing people to take advantage of things such as the handwraps introduced in this mod). The progression is also designed to keep monks and fighters of the same level and equipment tier from having large differences in their Armor Class.
I am still in the concept phase for this overhaul, so comments and criticism are always appreciated. If you have an idea you would like me to consider, let me know in this thread.
EDIT: Due to other major changes coming to this mod, I have removed the Wholeness of Body and Abundant Step abilities. Abundant Step will likely be made into an HLA at some point...
Looks pretty solid, but you might want to keep a close eye on Stunning Blow's early game power. In BG:EE saving throws rarely succeed and giving the monk an on-hit save or stun mode from level one might be a bit much.
@EnchanterTim@subtledoctor, this is exactly the kind of feedback I was looking for, and yes you are correct that it should be a percentile chance that improves with level.
Are there any plans to add the current version to BWS; I've been trying to do it myself but my powershell skills apparently aren't that good because I keep getting stuck on certain steps. The only reason I ask is I'm planning to do a full series run with Rasaad and I'd love to test out the mod, it's just that I also want play with several other non-monk mods and BWS is the safest way to get everything running. Then again if i simply manually install can i safely install it before using BWS, assuming I don't add any other mods that affect monks, without conflicts?
Hello all, I download the Monastic Orders of Faerun, I started with a Long Death Monk, but I notice that the poison weapon ability, doesnt work...I click the ability I apply poison, but unarmed or not when I hit the target, nothing happens, no poison added. This is a bug?
Here's a question for those interested in this mod: how important are the Monk's stealth and detect traps/illusions abilities to you when you play Monks?
If those abilities were removed, would you feel like some of the class' core abilities had been taken away? EDIT: Would the tradeoff of being able to multi-class Monks be worth it?
Detect Illusion always felt very thematic to me. Stealth is nice to have. Detect Traps...Imoen get the hell over here! Do it now! Multiclassing sounds a bit strange on Monks considering their devotion to what they do.
@EnchanterTim , thanks for your feedback. The reason I'm eyeing multi-classing at the expense of stealth abilities is because Monks in later editions of Forgotten Realms each had certain classes they could multiclass with depending on their god/order (e.g. Shar allowed Dark Moon Monks to multiclass as Shadowdancers and Nightcloaks, so I'm eyeing allowing something like that.)
Just be careful with changes like that, since they tend to upset game balance.
Taking the monk progression from your rough sketch a few posts back the problem is that except for speed and attacks per round monks don't progress past lvl 20 at 2.700.000 exp, that's 5.400.000 exp for a multiclass. Depending on how much sidequesting you do and when/if you tackle watchers keep, that is achievable early to mid throne of bhaal. At this point the powergamer in all of us asks:
Why bother with a singleclassed monk when i can have a monk 20/thief 22 that can backstab with his 2d10 fists and a x5 multiplier and has the use any item, assassination and trap HLAs on top of fighter HLAs throughout the most of throne of bhaal?
And we are not talking spellcasters with all their buff spells yet.
So watch your balance very carefully, if you implement monk multiclassing.
@EnchanterTim, noted of course, but the problem with "why play a singleclass Monk over a Monk/Thief multi" is the exact same problem as "why play a singleclass Fighter over a Fighter/Thief".
And fear not, I have absolutely no intention of letting any Monk multi-class pick up UAI, which to be honest is a horribly balanced ability on any character who has an item-based disadvantage.
@subtledoctor That is good to hear. To be honest the technical part of modding infinity games is beyond me and i just wanted to remind Aquadrizzt to carefully balance monk multiclasses, because they either have innately unbalanced abilities ( use any item i am looking at you) or spellcasting (monk/mage is basically kensage 2.0).
@Aquadrizzt Sorry if i sound like a broken record with all this balance talk, but i feel that multiclassing and dualclassing are a part of the games that even the original developers didn't get right. In BG1 there are clear tradeoffs for dual and multiclassing, but in BG2 and especially ToB most multiclasses are just better than singleclasses. AD&D wasn't made for epic level campaigns in the first place(elves even had their max level restricted) and multiclasses simply weren't meant to get so many exp.
Comments
This update includes a small fix to Shadowstep (s/o to @Draylyn for finding it) and adds the Polish translation provided by @Cahir.
Ideas, comments, criticism and requests are welcome, as always. Enjoy the mod!
The only level where this mod gives a higher damage, is level 5. For all other levels, an unmodded monk would give the same or higher damage.
Is this correct?
PS: Also, why is the best damage-dealing kit restricted to Halfling...
So yes, damage is slightly reduced, but durability and enchantment bonus are both greatly increased, especially at lower levels. The reason that the Hin Fist has the best damage is because most of the source material talks about how Hin Fist monks are especially good at precise strikes (hence, critical damage bonuses).
"Begins with a base Armor Class of 7. (-1 every 3 levels, maximum -3 at 21st)"
It either needs to say "every 2 levels", or "-3 at 31st". If it's every two levels, then that would mean a flat 2 AC bonus compared to the unmodded monk, which is indeed nice.
---
Also, the ReadMe.pdf mentions only BG1 and BG2 merchants when it talks about the new monk items. Do these items not become available when the mod is installed in IWD:EE?
---
Btw, I really like the general flavor of these kits, and how they're designed around special fist attacks and immunities.
I just hope that if I create such a monk in this game, he'll be powerful enough to compete with well-equipped fighters and paladins...
The most obvious one is Conlan's Smithy.
You can use the existing prices as guidance. Here are the complete lists:
- List of Icewind Dale store inventories
- List of Icewind Dale: Heart of Winter store inventories
If you want to add some as loot drops instead, note that, if I remember correctly, the Enhanced Edition of the game has already added a monk item as a random drop in level 4 of Dragon's Eye.So you might want to add yours in other parts of the game to spread them out a little.
- Wisdom based Armor Class bonus
- An overhaul of abilities in favor of a ki-points system.- Improved damage progression
- IWDEE and SOD compatibility.
- EDIT: Several modal melee abilities (Flurry of Blows, Ki Strike, and an order appropriate ability)
If there is anything that you would like to see in this mod in particular, let me know.
Also, curious if this mod does anything with paper dolls. Like I know that if I roll a Halfling monk, using the no-race-restrictions modification, the doll defaults to a normal male human, because there is no "Halfling monk" paperdoll.
And the mod gives rogue (or fighter, can't remember) paperdolls to non-human monks.
I'm not trying to rush you or anything, but i really enjoy the Mod and would like to play through SoD with it at some point.
No ETA because all of my final projects and exams are coming up but at the absolute latest probably early summer...
Features:
- Weapons: Club, Dagger, Katana, Longsword, Scimitar, Shortsword, Spear, Staff; Dart, Sling (1)
- Single Weapon Style: (2)
- No armor, shields or helmets
- May use Detect Traps and Stealth. Gains 10 skill points to distribute each level.
- Gains a +1 bonus to Armor Class for every 2 points of Wisdom above 10.
- Gains a +2 bonus to movement speed. This bonus improves by +1 every 5 levels.
- May make 1 unarmed attack per round, plus an additional 1/2 attack per round for every 5 levels. Your unarmed attacks improve with level as follows:
Level 1-3: d6
Level 4-7: d8; treated as +1 magical weapons.
Level 8-11: d10; treated as +2 magical weapons.
Level 12-15: 2d6; treated as +3 magical weapons.
Level 16-19: 2d8; treated as +4 magical weapons.
Level 20+: 2d10; treated as +5 magical weapons.
- 3rd level: Your base Armor Class decreases to 9, and decreases by 1 more at 7th, 11th, 15th, and 19th levels.
- 4th level: Gains a +2 bonus to saving throws vs. Enchantment spells.
- 5th level: Becomes immune to all diseases.
- 9th level: Becomes immune to charm and fear.
- 11th level: Becomes immune to poison.
- 15th level: Gains a +4 bonus to saving throws vs. spells.
- 20th level: Becomes immune to damage from non-magical weapons.
Modal Abilities (only one of these can be active at any given time)
- 1st: Stunning Blow [modal]: while active, your successful melee attacks force the target to save vs. spell or be stunned for 2 rounds.
- 1st: Flurry of Blows [modal]: while active, you have +1 Attack per Round.
- 4th: Ki Strike [modal]: your melee attacks deal bonus magic damage and are treated as weapons of an enchantment value equivalent to your monk fists (e.g. at 4th level, +1 magic damage and treated as +1 weapons)
Abilities (each usable 1/day)- 5th: Wholeness of Body: You regain hit points equal to twice your level (maximum 40).
- 8th: Abundant Step: Slip into the Astral Plane for 1 round and move while others remain frozen in time.
You cannot attack during this time.
- 14th: Quivering Palm: Your next successful melee attack forces the target to save vs. Spell or die. A save penalty is applied at higher levels.
There are a couple major changes. I have removed magic resistance from the base monk (in favor of a bonus to saves vs. spells), in order to have it be a perk for certain magic-oriented monks (such as the upcoming Arcane Fist and the Shining Hand Monk), as well as to smooth out monk's power curves at higher levels.
I have also introduced a set of three modal abilities, that augment not only fist attacks, but all melee attacks. This should provide monks with some incentive to use weapons over just unarmed attacks; unarmed attacks from monks will still be quite powerful and a reliable source of damage at higher levels, but these changes are intended to allow monk players who would like to have their monk occasionally use weapons to not feel as if they are actively hurting their power level.
The final major change is that the monks' AC bonus has been split and the progression revised. Thanks to some new functionality introduced in the 2.0 patch, I am able to now give monks Wisdom-based AC (similar to 3E/PF/5E). This will make Wisdom an important stat for monks, so be prepared for MAD (multiple ability dependence). In order to offset this bonus, I have changed monks base AC progression to be slower and to resolve faster; it now ranges from base AC 9 at 3rd to base AC 5 at 19th). This allows monks to gain benefits from Bracers of AC at lower levels, but without having to depend on them at higher levels (thus allowing people to take advantage of things such as the handwraps introduced in this mod). The progression is also designed to keep monks and fighters of the same level and equipment tier from having large differences in their Armor Class.
I am still in the concept phase for this overhaul, so comments and criticism are always appreciated. If you have an idea you would like me to consider, let me know in this thread.
EDIT: Due to other major changes coming to this mod, I have removed the Wholeness of Body and Abundant Step abilities. Abundant Step will likely be made into an HLA at some point...
If those abilities were removed, would you feel like some of the class' core abilities had been taken away? EDIT: Would the tradeoff of being able to multi-class Monks be worth it?
Multiclassing sounds a bit strange on Monks considering their devotion to what they do.
Taking the monk progression from your rough sketch a few posts back the problem is that except for speed and attacks per round monks don't progress past lvl 20 at 2.700.000 exp, that's 5.400.000 exp for a multiclass. Depending on how much sidequesting you do and when/if you tackle watchers keep, that is achievable early to mid throne of bhaal. At this point the powergamer in all of us asks:
Why bother with a singleclassed monk when i can have a monk 20/thief 22 that can backstab with his 2d10 fists and a x5 multiplier and has the use any item, assassination and trap HLAs on top of fighter HLAs throughout the most of throne of bhaal?
And we are not talking spellcasters with all their buff spells yet.
So watch your balance very carefully, if you implement monk multiclassing.
And fear not, I have absolutely no intention of letting any Monk multi-class pick up UAI, which to be honest is a horribly balanced ability on any character who has an item-based disadvantage.
@Aquadrizzt Sorry if i sound like a broken record with all this balance talk, but i feel that multiclassing and dualclassing are a part of the games that even the original developers didn't get right. In BG1 there are clear tradeoffs for dual and multiclassing, but in BG2 and especially ToB most multiclasses are just better than singleclasses. AD&D wasn't made for epic level campaigns in the first place(elves even had their max level restricted) and multiclasses simply weren't meant to get so many exp.