I'm more interested to see how save files would work if it is such a large patch. Should we make back up saves for it? Will it be compatible? Any sorts of issues people should know of before we install it? After all...it is a beta patch.
Many of you are being awfully hard on Overhaul's employees. I am quite aware of the compatibility issues of computers.....I expect the beta to be somewhat buggy if it is a large patch and that is ok with me. Yeah I paid $20 for the game but for me it is playable...Skyrim is far worse off when it comes to bugs that can screw up your saves or quests. At least there are little fixes that are being made so that I can finish certain quests. Overall I am happy I bought the game despite having the original already and I am very happy that the employees on the forums are pretty happy with working on the game as well (I am assuming they are employees).
Keep it up guys. Try not to burn yourselves out and become demotivated and just stop supporting the game altogether.
@AdventSign Your existing saved games should work with the beta, although we'll recommend backing up your saves before using them in the beta, as the patch may change some things that will make them stop working in the current live version.
Some of the comments are... surreal? Reverse deja-vu? Because when the game was released people were complaining that Beamdog *didn't* offer an open beta.
After finishing BGEE with my Undead Hunter, I wasn't planning on ever playing it again (not that it's a bad game, but my love lies with BG2). I must say talk of the new patch has sucked me right back in, though. I'll be participating in the beta for sure. Just have to figure out what character to roll!
Suggestion to even let non-Beamdoggers into the Beta: Give them a Beamdog account with a BGEE license upon proof of payment if they purchased BG:EE through Steam or any other alternative distribution method.
Shouldn't hurt you and even should be easy to facilitate because you (OHG and BD) are the same guys.
@AendaeronBluescale It's a little more complicated; any copy distributed through our own channels requires us to pay our publishing partners; so giving out "free copies" ends up costing us quite a bit of money.
@AendaeronBluescale It's a little more complicated; any copy distributed through our own channels requires us to pay our publishing partners; so giving out "free copies" ends up costing us quite a bit of money.
Steam however supports beta channels. Perhaps you could at least do something there? I bought the game directly from Beamdog, so it doesn't affect me, but surely would affect others.
Again, updates to Steam take weeks instead of hours because they have to go through Atari first. It simply isn't feasible.
So why not give Atari the open Beta version and the option to get the work done to release it on steam any way? Or is the Open Beta scheduled to only last a week or two thus making the steam release of a beta useless to you guys?
The concept of a beta is that it's not ready yet. There's no sense in release it like a final version unless you wanna create still more shitstorm for any bug it contains.
Again, updates to Steam take weeks instead of hours because they have to go through Atari first. It simply isn't feasible.
So why not give Atari the open Beta version and the option to get the work done to release it on steam any way? Or is the Open Beta scheduled to only last a week or two thus making the steam release of a beta useless to you guys?
Here's the micro version of what would happen.
Day 1: Open Beta is released to Beamdog customers. Day 2: A bug is found, and the Beta is updated to fix it. Day 3: A couple more bugs are found, and the Beta is updated to fix them. Day 4: Fifteen bugs are discovered and fixed, and the Beta is updated. Day 5: No new bugs are discovered, but an update is released anyway to fix some thirty-five bugs that have previously been reported. Day 6: Five new bugs are fixed; Beta is updated. Day 7: A new feature is implemented for testing. Day 8: Saturday; the team takes the weekend off. Day 9: Open Beta is released to Steam customers. Day 10: Steam customers report the bug from Day 2, because they're playing with a week-old build. Steam customers also report that the feature implemented on Day 7 isn't in the game (which it obviously won't be for another week). Day 11: Chaos, I guess?
Let's say we catch and fix a hundred bugs in that first week. Now the Steam version's "Open Beta" is entirely useless because A) we don't know if it's a bug that still occurs in the current build, and we don't know if it's a bug that we've already fixed. (And also C) we don't know if it's a bug that's caused by something goin awry with Steam.)
But it's actually worse than useless, because now we have to spend several hours tracking down all the bugs being reported on the Steam version to see if they're the same as the ones that have already been fixed in the Beamdog version. And that continues for every beta update that gets delayed.
If you want to participate in the Open Beta, buy the Beamdog version and grab the client. If you don't want to do that, then you'll get the patch when it's polished and ready for release. There's nothing wrong with not participating in the Beta, but when you make the choice to purchase through Steam you're choosing the convenience of having your games in one location (and, more than likely, a highly discounted purchase price), over the perk of receiving patches on-time and (in this case) participating in public betas.
Thanks @Dee I think this answer alone should answer any further 'Why can't I participate in the beta on steam?' queries, before they occur.
In any Agile based development process (Even Closed loop Waterfall to some degree) it's all about fixing bugs that are reported early and getting them QA'd asap, testing on two seperate versions that will be continuously out of sync due to factors outside the control of dev and testing would obviously extend the testing phase and waste time of both teams.
Makes perfect sense... except day 8..... you take days off?! Preposterous! How can you do that to your poor, waiting community! Who do I have to talk to so you get proper 84 hour workweeks?
In all seriousness, I would love some kind of extensive list to show what you're working on. Perhaps a bug tracker. But as you already mentioned before about devblogs, that would take a lot of time.
@Deefje The problem with that kind of transparency is there's a lot going on that we legally can't talk about yet, work on features that we aren't sure will go into the final product, discussions about various future additions we can't talk about -- plus, a lot of it is pretty boring anyway. The only way it'd work is to create separate trackers, one public and one private--and I don't even want to think about the problems that'd cause. It's often hard enough to keep track of bugs in one system, let alone two.
I do believe there'll be a changelog coming in the next few weeks, though, so keep your eyes peeled.
I tried to make a similar comment a while back, but I guess I worded it poorly. So here goes again:
From my perspective, it always seemed strange that the game was released to the public in late October November '12 as a 'Release', when it was clear (to me at least), that it was much closer to being a Beta (feature complete, but with a high probability of issues).
My question is this: Do you know why was BG:EE branded a 'Release' instead of a 'Paid Open Beta' in late October November of '12? Was this a contractual requirement?
I can't help but think that the 'Paid Open Beta' tag would have helped people better understand what to expect from the game, especially given that it didn't work on certain Intel chipsets.
I personally tried to help the best I could by doing some research, helping out users and trying to triage which chipsets were likely to work with a driver upgrade and which were never going to work well enough on the renderer used back then. The result of that research was edited into the OP in the intel IGP thread.
And can I just say that I'm very much looking forward to trying out the new renderer in the Open Beta on my old crappy intel chipset laptop?
@ermo Partly it was because we were contractually required to release the game at some point, and I'm sure part of it was also because we had already announced the November (not October) release date, and scaling that back again would have caused more of a stir. I couldn't comment definitively, though, because I wasn't brought on (the game's manuals notwithstanding) until January.
@Aoden Sometime in early-mid September. When we have a solid date we'll make a more official announcement with all the details.
You're falling back in old habits.
Just share your deadline and do it. It will motivate yourself to hit the date spot on. Now you run the risk again of overpromising and underachieving
The increase of communication is already a nice improvement, but again, to people who work in a competitive environment, you sure come over as slackers. This is not ment as an isult, but my boss would have kicked my ass if I worked this way.
By the way, after the patch, can't the devs, that are also modders (some of them i think) give a hand on the community mods? A bit of attention from people with the source code to the journal issue would be a huge help, as we have some important mods stuck atm in reason of journal incompatibility, as BG1 NPC, Dark Side of the Sword Coas (i think) among others.
@Streamhopper I'm sorry this information isn't satisfactory to you, but we do have other parties involved that have to approve everything before we announce it.
You're certainly welcome to your opinions, but it's hard to believe you when you say that "slacker" isn't meant to be an insult.
@Streamhopper I'm sorry this information isn't satisfactory to you, but we do have other parties involved that have to approve everything before we announce it.
You're certainly welcome to your opinions, but it's hard to believe you when you say that "slacker" isn't meant to be an insult.
I can imagine it sounded harsh. But understand that although you work hard, there are many ppl here where 10 or 12 hour days are also not uncommon. I just want to make sure you understand that you just shoot yourself in the foot when you give vague dates.
Everyday of september there will be people here checking if it's there yet. Because early or mid, can be just anything. And I dont have to tell you what they will think when it's not there on 8 or 11 september (just to give a random date here)
My biggest critic is not on what you do as work, but how the project is managed.
Last I want to point out that I know there's a risk setting a clear date. i took a holiday based on the first release date... not the two weeks I imagned them to be. Yet I'm here trying to get through that you should avoid at all times to leave room for assumptions.
I'd say your biggest critic (sic) is the PR. You have no idea how the project is managed, since clearly you have no inside knowledge of it. Which makes it all the more idiotic (no insult intended) for you to call them slackers, or for that matter to assume that you know best how they should handle the release. Between the Scylla and Charibdis of setting a date that might not be met and leaving the players with (some) uncertainty, there is usually a little more at play than 'not leaving room for assumptions'.
This is not ment as an isult, but my boss would have kicked my ass if I worked this way.
Just curious, but do you work as a software developer? A game developer even?
It's easy to judge other people by one's own standards and circumstances. It's harder to genuinely understand and appreciate that circumstances do differ and that not all people make decisions the way you yourself would have made them, for a variety of reasons.
Yet the results of their current method is not up to discussion as you can see in this exact forum... lots of dissapointed people
Without having to know how they work exactly, I just see dates go further and further, with only the promise for more results, but since even before the legal issues, no results yet.
You can be a baker or a developer or an undertaker, a certain general work ethic and method still applies
Wisdom implies knowledge generated from previous experience applied to new situations. That experience will almost always vary from the previous or future one. Your statement is void as it would imply wisdom can not be applied more then once.
And from experience, not as a developer, but managing them, I've become immune for "if you wait just a while longer we can also do this and this" and in their enthousiasm they dont realise they are already long overdue
Forgive us, but we want to be absolutely sure, absolutely confident that when we give you a date, it will be the correct one. I think we can all agree that a correct date is better than a bogus one.
While we appreciate everybody's enthusiasm -- it is so awesome to see everyone so passionate and excited about something we care about so much -- we're not going to give out information until we are absolutely, 100% sure of it.
hey beamdog, dont let all these nay-sayers and negative people get you down, you obviously fighting to give us a game we love and are even working to make it better, and then going beyond even that. i think your the best people in the world, and i would hug every one of you if i could (no homo- for the guys) and if i could do anything more to help i would. please keep up the awesome work and devotion you obviously have for this game.
Comments
Many of you are being awfully hard on Overhaul's employees. I am quite aware of the compatibility issues of computers.....I expect the beta to be somewhat buggy if it is a large patch and that is ok with me. Yeah I paid $20 for the game but for me it is playable...Skyrim is far worse off when it comes to bugs that can screw up your saves or quests. At least there are little fixes that are being made so that I can finish certain quests. Overall I am happy I bought the game despite having the original already and I am very happy that the employees on the forums are pretty happy with working on the game as well (I am assuming they are employees).
Keep it up guys. Try not to burn yourselves out and become demotivated and just stop supporting the game altogether.
Your existing saved games should work with the beta, although we'll recommend backing up your saves before using them in the beta, as the patch may change some things that will make them stop working in the current live version.
After finishing BGEE with my Undead Hunter, I wasn't planning on ever playing it again (not that it's a bad game, but my love lies with BG2). I must say talk of the new patch has sucked me right back in, though. I'll be participating in the beta for sure. Just have to figure out what character to roll!
Shouldn't hurt you and even should be easy to facilitate because you (OHG and BD) are the same guys.
It's a little more complicated; any copy distributed through our own channels requires us to pay our publishing partners; so giving out "free copies" ends up costing us quite a bit of money.
Day 1: Open Beta is released to Beamdog customers.
Day 2: A bug is found, and the Beta is updated to fix it.
Day 3: A couple more bugs are found, and the Beta is updated to fix them.
Day 4: Fifteen bugs are discovered and fixed, and the Beta is updated.
Day 5: No new bugs are discovered, but an update is released anyway to fix some thirty-five bugs that have previously been reported.
Day 6: Five new bugs are fixed; Beta is updated.
Day 7: A new feature is implemented for testing.
Day 8: Saturday; the team takes the weekend off.
Day 9: Open Beta is released to Steam customers.
Day 10: Steam customers report the bug from Day 2, because they're playing with a week-old build. Steam customers also report that the feature implemented on Day 7 isn't in the game (which it obviously won't be for another week).
Day 11: Chaos, I guess?
Let's say we catch and fix a hundred bugs in that first week. Now the Steam version's "Open Beta" is entirely useless because A) we don't know if it's a bug that still occurs in the current build, and
But it's actually worse than useless, because now we have to spend several hours tracking down all the bugs being reported on the Steam version to see if they're the same as the ones that have already been fixed in the Beamdog version. And that continues for every beta update that gets delayed.
If you want to participate in the Open Beta, buy the Beamdog version and grab the client. If you don't want to do that, then you'll get the patch when it's polished and ready for release. There's nothing wrong with not participating in the Beta, but when you make the choice to purchase through Steam you're choosing the convenience of having your games in one location (and, more than likely, a highly discounted purchase price), over the perk of receiving patches on-time and (in this case) participating in public betas.
In any Agile based development process (Even Closed loop Waterfall to some degree) it's all about fixing bugs that are reported early and getting them QA'd asap, testing on two seperate versions that will be continuously out of sync due to factors outside the control of dev and testing would obviously extend the testing phase and waste time of both teams.
In all seriousness, I would love some kind of extensive list to show what you're working on. Perhaps a bug tracker. But as you already mentioned before about devblogs, that would take a lot of time.
I do believe there'll be a changelog coming in the next few weeks, though, so keep your eyes peeled.
Also -- who needs sleep, amirite?!
Sometime in early-mid September. When we have a solid date we'll make a more official announcement with all the details.
I tried to make a similar comment a while back, but I guess I worded it poorly. So here goes again:
From my perspective, it always seemed strange that the game was released to the public in late October November '12 as a 'Release', when it was clear (to me at least), that it was much closer to being a Beta (feature complete, but with a high probability of issues).
My question is this: Do you know why was BG:EE branded a 'Release' instead of a 'Paid Open Beta' in late October November of '12? Was this a contractual requirement?
I can't help but think that the 'Paid Open Beta' tag would have helped people better understand what to expect from the game, especially given that it didn't work on certain Intel chipsets.
I personally tried to help the best I could by doing some research, helping out users and trying to triage which chipsets were likely to work with a driver upgrade and which were never going to work well enough on the renderer used back then. The result of that research was edited into the OP in the intel IGP thread.
And can I just say that I'm very much looking forward to trying out the new renderer in the Open Beta on my old crappy intel chipset laptop?
EDIT: Ooops, November, not October...
Partly it was because we were contractually required to release the game at some point, and I'm sure part of it was also because we had already announced the November (not October) release date, and scaling that back again would have caused more of a stir. I couldn't comment definitively, though, because I wasn't brought on (the game's manuals notwithstanding) until January.
Just share your deadline and do it. It will motivate yourself to hit the date spot on. Now you run the risk again of overpromising and underachieving
The increase of communication is already a nice improvement, but again, to people who work in a competitive environment, you sure come over as slackers. This is not ment as an isult, but my boss would have kicked my ass if I worked this way.
I'm sorry this information isn't satisfactory to you, but we do have other parties involved that have to approve everything before we announce it.
You're certainly welcome to your opinions, but it's hard to believe you when you say that "slacker" isn't meant to be an insult.
Everyday of september there will be people here checking if it's there yet. Because early or mid, can be just anything. And I dont have to tell you what they will think when it's not there on 8 or 11 september (just to give a random date here)
My biggest critic is not on what you do as work, but how the project is managed.
Last I want to point out that I know there's a risk setting a clear date. i took a holiday based on the first release date... not the two weeks I imagned them to be. Yet I'm here trying to get through that you should avoid at all times to leave room for assumptions.
It's easy to judge other people by one's own standards and circumstances. It's harder to genuinely understand and appreciate that circumstances do differ and that not all people make decisions the way you yourself would have made them, for a variety of reasons.
A wise man judges accordingly, I think.
Without having to know how they work exactly, I just see dates go further and further, with only the promise for more results, but since even before the legal issues, no results yet.
You can be a baker or a developer or an undertaker, a certain general work ethic and method still applies
@ermo
Wisdom implies knowledge generated from previous experience applied to new situations. That experience will almost always vary from the previous or future one. Your statement is void as it would imply wisdom can not be applied more then once.
And from experience, not as a developer, but managing them, I've become immune for "if you wait just a while longer we can also do this and this" and in their enthousiasm they dont realise they are already long overdue
While we appreciate everybody's enthusiasm -- it is so awesome to see everyone so passionate and excited about something we care about so much -- we're not going to give out information until we are absolutely, 100% sure of it.
It would be sad if something happened to Boo, wouldn't it? You've got 5 days, Beamdog. So does Boo.