I suppose Beamdog aren't in the business of making money then? They released BG:EE for what...a nice warm feeling?
It was low hanging, it was ripe enough, it came with a maggot.
... .... .....
You just said that, didn't you.
Congratulations, you've uncovered their dastardly plan. Party's over. Everyone go home now.
Beamdog wants to make money.
Again, nothing that requires wading through three different legal teams can be considered low hanging fruit. There are many easier, surer ways to make money. Prior to BGEE's announcement I would have placed the likelihood of any Infinity Engine based projects having about the same chance of occurring as System Shock 3(which will never happen, which is why we have Bioshock). There are certainly projects that Beamdog could have undertaken that would have yielded a larger share of the profits.
Making money is a motivation for anyone in any business. To claim that it was motive number one behind making BGEE is laughable given the obstacles.
Again, nothing that requires wading through three different legal teams can be considered low hanging fruit ... To claim that it (making money) was motive number one behind making BGEE is laughable given the obstacles.
Unseen obstacles, like the unseen maggot in the low hanging fruit analogy. Around about 4 days ago, no doubt Trent realised that he'd just bitten into the maggot. I reckon Beamdog would have steered well clear had they known.
Motive #1 was absolutely, unquestionably, to make money...and why would that be so wrong?
From what we can read Atari still wants to sell the game... I wonder, is it overhaul who do not want to work for Atari or the other way around?
Trent's entire statement to Kotaku (emphasis mine):
I can't offer much information as we are trying to work through the issues. We pulled the game in response to a request from Atari's legal representation. The issue affects our rights to both games. Atari continues to sell the game through their channels.
From our end, without the hope of revenue to cover salaries, we have to stop work on all Baldur's Gate products, including the patch. Instead, we need to look for new projects to move our team onto.
Again, nothing that requires wading through three different legal teams can be considered low hanging fruit ... To claim that it (making money) was motive number one behind making BGEE is laughable given the obstacles.
Unseen obstacles, like the unseen maggot in the low hanging fruit analogy. Around about 4 days ago, no doubt Trent realised that he'd just bitten into the maggot. I reckon Beamdog would have steered well clear had they known.
Motive #1 was absolutely, unquestionably, to make money...and why would that be so wrong?
They knew before the original announcement was made that the BGEE project would be a nightmare to contract. They said as much. This was never low hanging fruit. An Angry Birds clone would be low hanging fruit.
And once again, you are confusing things. Money is required for a business of any kind to exist. That it is the primary reason for a business to exist is not a given. How many people start small businesses because it involves an activity they enjoy (restaurants and tabletop gaming stores being good examples)? Does a huge corporate entity like EA exist to make money first, last and only? Almost assuredly. Does Beamdog? Given that they took on a difficult and less than hugely profitable project like BGEE, I'd say not.
They have to make money to complete this project and move on to the next, yes. But I don't believe money was the motivation for picking Baldur's Gate in particular to overhaul as opposed to any number of easier and more profitable ventures they could have chosen.
From what we can read Atari still wants to sell the game... I wonder, is it overhaul who do not want to work for Atari or the other way around?
Trent's entire statement to Kotaku (emphasis mine):
I can't offer much information as we are trying to work through the issues. We pulled the game in response to a request from Atari's legal representation. The issue affects our rights to both games. Atari continues to sell the game through their channels.
From our end, without the hope of revenue to cover salaries, we have to stop work on all Baldur's Gate products, including the patch. Instead, we need to look for new projects to move our team onto.
So a deal in which you work on the game and it is sold by Atari (i.e. overhaul are just the developer and not also the publisher) is not possible? While I do understand you would make less money this way, maybe at least patching the game under this model would be an option?
Unseen obstacles, like the unseen maggot in the low hanging fruit analogy. Around about 4 days ago, no doubt Trent realised that he'd just bitten into the maggot. I reckon Beamdog would have steered well clear had they known.
No, I don't think you understand what the "low hanging fruit" metaphor is supposed to mean. The "fruit" is the thing you want, see, and the "low hanging" bit means that it's easy to get at.
These obstacles were *not* unforseen: we've all known about them (both we consumers, and Beamdog) from pretty early on. The technical obstacles in bringing this game to market were what pushed the release date back, were what further delayed the release for Mac, iPad and Android. The legal obstacles were evident (or, at least, the tips of their icebergs were) in the nature of the work that Beamdog was allowed to do by way of new content: they couldn't touch the core storyline content of the game, but were able to do things like insert new NPCs, create new "module" scenarios like the Black Pits, and add a truckload of new character kits.
Motive #1 was absolutely, unquestionably, to make money...and why would that be so wrong?
If profit was the main motivator, why did the two main platforms on which the game saw release receive *all* of the new content (all four new NPCs, the slew of new kits from the last patch, the Black Pits scenario) as part of the base purchasing price?
To suggest that you somehow know that, hierarchically, profit was the primary motivator is either cynicism or cluelessness on your part. Probably a little from both, perhaps weighted just a teensy bit in favor of the latter.
Plan A: I think that Beamdog wanted to make BG:EE in true HD, ya know, give it a true makeover and make it a real labour of love. Any monies made from such a project would be a bonus. Great.
When Plan A couldn't be achieved, Plan B was to do the best they could with what they had...not so much a labour of love this one. Crank out BG to the masses (tablets etc). Try and be in a position whereby time and money could be spent on the next labour of love (BG3).
Sure, Beamdog like BG (we are all fans), but to say they made it out of the goodness of their hearts isn't totally accurate. You'd be a fool to suggest otherwise.
Calling others clueless etc has never been on my agenda...I'm all for an interesting discussion, but despite any misgivings anyone has about my 'arguments' I think this is uncalled for:
To suggest that you somehow know that, hierarchically, profit was the primary motivator is either cynicism or cluelessness on your part. Probably a little from both, perhaps weighted just a teensy bit in favor of the latter.
Patch or no overall it worked ok for me... still funny though that I could exit the final area after the final battle and play more- that had to be a bug....
I am deeply hurt that things have gone afoul causing me cafe times unplayed. This best of all possible worlds has be designed perfectly and without fault for my pleasure. Immoen is made to love me in the sister brother mod. Jahreeria is enslaved sold and roasted for the oral pleasure of some Dark Sun elf eaters in the In the "Evil Jaheeria for bbq mod". and TIAX RULES ALL AND ASCENDS TO DEMI-GOD STATE IN THE "TRUE TIAX RULING" mod.
But, just like in real life fantasy annoys me. It seems like people fail to respect my dollars and justifiable needs. The world is full of vile evil exploiters who pimp girls in movies and acts but yet there is ONE WHO STANDS FOR JUSTICE AND OUR WAY OF LIFE: TIAX DEFENDER OF CYRIC WORSHIPERS AND PUNISHER OF SMART GUYS. It is the Qualyes of this world who exploit adopted orphans and have them wing bent in circuses as freaks. It is the strong resourceful genius mace wielder Holy Tiax who robs from the self righteously and give to the poor.
I am going to protest at the Atari corporate board meeting next time after I buy some stocks in it. I am guessing they were trying to say BG/BG2/Android was to only be sold via steam so they could get more cash- BeamDawg said no- and boom lawyers of Atrai are released... this is my guess... it all comes down to cash and Atari have no love for the product like the ole playas of Beamdawg who were dubbed worthy to live and create BG2 by Tiax.
This thread could stand for a little less ad hominem. Maybe a lot less ad hominem.
I said this already less than a day ago, but here it is again:
The site has rules about being respectful of other forum members; and that includes members who maybe don't agree with you about something. I'm not going to name any names, but my guess is I don't have to. Let's all rein in the personal attacks.
I am going to protest at the Atari corporate board meeting next time after I buy some stocks in it. I am guessing they were trying to say BG/BG2/Android was to only be sold via steam so they could get more cash- BeamDawg said no- and boom lawyers of Atrai are released... this is my guess... it all comes down to cash and Atari have no love for the product like the ole playas of Beamdawg who were dubbed worthy to live and create BG2 by Tiax.
I don't know if it's that simple, beamdog basically tried to have just one publisher for the game, which is always bad for us gamers. I know that they made less money per copy on steam (but had higher exposure of the game) but what about gog.com, desura, gamersgate? Frankly the monopoly approach of beamdog is nothing to praise. If Atari forced steam on them... praise Atari.
Plan A: I think that Beamdog wanted to make BG:EE in true HD, ya know, give it a true makeover and make it a real labour of love. Any monies made from such a project would be a bonus. Great.
When Plan A couldn't be achieved, Plan B was to do the best they could with what they had...not so much a labour of love this one. Crank out BG to the masses (tablets etc). Try and be in a position whereby time and money could be spent on the next labour of love (BG3).
Sure, Beamdog like BG (we are all fans), but to say they made it out of the goodness of their hearts isn't totally accurate. You'd be a fool to suggest otherwise.
Calling others clueless etc has never been on my agenda...I'm all for an interesting discussion, but despite any misgivings anyone has about my 'arguments' I think this is uncalled for:
To suggest that you somehow know that, hierarchically, profit was the primary motivator is either cynicism or cluelessness on your part. Probably a little from both, perhaps weighted just a teensy bit in favor of the latter.
"Clueless" doesn't have to be pejorative. (although, I'll point out that you don't seem to take offense at being called "cynical" -- that's somewhat telling :-p [I'll also point out that calling someone a fool right before complaining about being called clueless is just a bit tacky... I'm just saying])
But let's leave aside the word "clueless," and go with something less insulting. I'll point out that you preface discussing "Plan A" by saying that you "think" that this was Beamdog's progression of planning -- "think" as opposed to "know." It does turn out that this hypothesis is factually untrue, especially where you get to talking about Plan B. Tablets were, in fact, *always* a core part of the plan: this is fairly well-documented in some of the earliest press statements that Trent Oster et al. made when preliminary news of BG:EE broke. The folks at Beamdog envisioned Infinity engine games being played on touchscreens, and this was the catalyst behind why they first embarked upon taking up this project. (and they noted, always, as often as they could get away with saying it, how difficult it would be to not only clean up Baldur's Gate and bring it to modern platforms, but to also then port it to two different breeds tablet as well)
So, how does making this great game available on multiple platforms somehow not equate a "labor of love"? Why does it then become "crank[ed] out" and, somehow, less than what you suppose Plan A might have been? (but, actually, wasn't)
This thread could stand for a little less ad hominem. Maybe a lot less ad hominem.
I said this already less than a day ago, but here it is again:
The site has rules about being respectful of other forum members; and that includes members who maybe don't agree with you about something. I'm not going to name any names, but my guess is I don't have to. Let's all rein in the personal attacks.
If you have a personal issue, please take it to PM. I don't mind the discussion about the game, why it was pulled, whether Beamdog is a slimy ball of money-grabbing pus or a shining example of Lawful Goodness, but let's keep the personal attacks out of it.
I came here because I love Baldur's Gate. I expected interesting discussions on that topic with people who also enjoy it. I didn't expect this level of zealousness.
I'll try and steer clear of comments which may be remotely negative in future. Maybe I might fit in with the 'clued up' regulars better.
I came here because I love Baldur's Gate. I expected interesting discussions on that topic with people who also enjoy it. I didn't expect this level of zealousness.
I'll try and steer clear of comments which may be remotely negative in future. Maybe I might fit in with the 'clued up' regulars better.
I think maybe you were "a touch indelicate," as Bill the Butcher would say, and given that this is a emotional topic for all involved, you probably shouldn't be surprised that you're receiving an aggressive rebuttal.
For what it's worth, I agree that there is nothing wrong with being motivated by money. If the Overhaul team is motivated by money and they know how to make a great RPG, that is a win-win for us gamers.
This discussion sure changed over the past few days. The first few pages everyone were standing as brothers in arms, then everyone got drunk and started pointing fingers.
I think maybe it has something to do with the fact that the discussion's all happening in the announcement thread. We may want to consider making these announcements "read-only" (the assumption being that people are welcome to discuss them in the General Discussions subforum).
I think maybe it has something to do with the fact that the discussion's all happening in the announcement thread. We may want to consider making these announcements "read-only" (the assumption being that people are welcome to discuss them in the General Discussions subforum).
What do people think about that idea?
I'd prefer a single discussion thread each announcement because otherwise General Discussions will be cluttered with multiple threads regarding one announcement. Better keep the thread list clean and let us discuss in one single thread - the one which was started with the announcement. One can still find out which post refers to which by quoting.
Comments
It was low hanging, it was ripe enough, it came with a maggot.
....
.....
You just said that, didn't you.
Congratulations, you've uncovered their dastardly plan. Party's over. Everyone go home now.
Beamdog wants to make money.
Again, nothing that requires wading through three different legal teams can be considered low hanging fruit. There are many easier, surer ways to make money. Prior to BGEE's announcement I would have placed the likelihood of any Infinity Engine based projects having about the same chance of occurring as System Shock 3(which will never happen, which is why we have Bioshock). There are certainly projects that Beamdog could have undertaken that would have yielded a larger share of the profits.
Making money is a motivation for anyone in any business. To claim that it was motive number one behind making BGEE is laughable given the obstacles.
Don't now if this popped up already but here is what I found.
http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2013/06/24/beamdog-hoping-for-baldurs-gate-iii-despite-legal-hell/#more-157257
Motive #1 was absolutely, unquestionably, to make money...and why would that be so wrong?
And once again, you are confusing things. Money is required for a business of any kind to exist. That it is the primary reason for a business to exist is not a given. How many people start small businesses because it involves an activity they enjoy (restaurants and tabletop gaming stores being good examples)? Does a huge corporate entity like EA exist to make money first, last and only? Almost assuredly. Does Beamdog? Given that they took on a difficult and less than hugely profitable project like BGEE, I'd say not.
They have to make money to complete this project and move on to the next, yes. But I don't believe money was the motivation for picking Baldur's Gate in particular to overhaul as opposed to any number of easier and more profitable ventures they could have chosen.
These obstacles were *not* unforseen: we've all known about them (both we consumers, and Beamdog) from pretty early on. The technical obstacles in bringing this game to market were what pushed the release date back, were what further delayed the release for Mac, iPad and Android. The legal obstacles were evident (or, at least, the tips of their icebergs were) in the nature of the work that Beamdog was allowed to do by way of new content: they couldn't touch the core storyline content of the game, but were able to do things like insert new NPCs, create new "module" scenarios like the Black Pits, and add a truckload of new character kits. If profit was the main motivator, why did the two main platforms on which the game saw release receive *all* of the new content (all four new NPCs, the slew of new kits from the last patch, the Black Pits scenario) as part of the base purchasing price?
To suggest that you somehow know that, hierarchically, profit was the primary motivator is either cynicism or cluelessness on your part. Probably a little from both, perhaps weighted just a teensy bit in favor of the latter.
http://pockettactics.com/2013/06/20/baldurs-gate-pulled-from-app-store-work-on-bg2-halted/
Yeah I can see that being shallow. lol
I'm just a neutral observer, but I think we can safely declare a winner now.
Plan A: I think that Beamdog wanted to make BG:EE in true HD, ya know, give it a true makeover and make it a real labour of love. Any monies made from such a project would be a bonus. Great.
When Plan A couldn't be achieved, Plan B was to do the best they could with what they had...not so much a labour of love this one. Crank out BG to the masses (tablets etc). Try and be in a position whereby time and money could be spent on the next labour of love (BG3).
Sure, Beamdog like BG (we are all fans), but to say they made it out of the goodness of their hearts isn't totally accurate. You'd be a fool to suggest otherwise.
Calling others clueless etc has never been on my agenda...I'm all for an interesting discussion, but despite any misgivings anyone has about my 'arguments' I think this is uncalled for:
I am deeply hurt that things have gone afoul causing me cafe times unplayed. This best of all possible worlds has be designed perfectly and without fault for my pleasure. Immoen is made to love me in the sister brother mod. Jahreeria is enslaved sold and roasted for the oral pleasure of some Dark Sun elf eaters in the In the "Evil Jaheeria for bbq mod". and TIAX RULES ALL AND ASCENDS TO DEMI-GOD STATE IN THE "TRUE TIAX RULING" mod.
But, just like in real life fantasy annoys me. It seems like people fail to respect my dollars and justifiable needs. The world is full of vile evil exploiters who pimp girls in movies and acts but yet there is ONE WHO STANDS FOR JUSTICE AND OUR WAY OF LIFE: TIAX DEFENDER OF CYRIC WORSHIPERS AND PUNISHER OF SMART GUYS. It is the Qualyes of this world who exploit adopted orphans and have them wing bent in circuses as freaks. It is the strong resourceful genius mace wielder Holy Tiax who robs from the self righteously and give to the poor.
I am going to protest at the Atari corporate board meeting next time after I buy some stocks in it. I am guessing they were trying to say BG/BG2/Android was to only be sold via steam so they could get more cash- BeamDawg said no- and boom lawyers of Atrai are released... this is my guess... it all comes down to cash and Atari have no love for the product like the ole playas of Beamdawg who were dubbed worthy to live and create BG2 by Tiax.
I said this already less than a day ago, but here it is again:
The site has rules about being respectful of other forum members; and that includes members who maybe don't agree with you about something. I'm not going to name any names, but my guess is I don't have to. Let's all rein in the personal attacks.
That's not exactly true to what happened...
But let's leave aside the word "clueless," and go with something less insulting. I'll point out that you preface discussing "Plan A" by saying that you "think" that this was Beamdog's progression of planning -- "think" as opposed to "know." It does turn out that this hypothesis is factually untrue, especially where you get to talking about Plan B. Tablets were, in fact, *always* a core part of the plan: this is fairly well-documented in some of the earliest press statements that Trent Oster et al. made when preliminary news of BG:EE broke. The folks at Beamdog envisioned Infinity engine games being played on touchscreens, and this was the catalyst behind why they first embarked upon taking up this project. (and they noted, always, as often as they could get away with saying it, how difficult it would be to not only clean up Baldur's Gate and bring it to modern platforms, but to also then port it to two different breeds tablet as well)
So, how does making this great game available on multiple platforms somehow not equate a "labor of love"? Why does it then become "crank[ed] out" and, somehow, less than what you suppose Plan A might have been? (but, actually, wasn't)
Your last post was fairly long, so I'm assuming you missed this note from me earlier: If you have a personal issue, please take it to PM. I don't mind the discussion about the game, why it was pulled, whether Beamdog is a slimy ball of money-grabbing pus or a shining example of Lawful Goodness, but let's keep the personal attacks out of it.
I'll try and steer clear of comments which may be remotely negative in future. Maybe I might fit in with the 'clued up' regulars better.
For what it's worth, I agree that there is nothing wrong with being motivated by money. If the Overhaul team is motivated by money and they know how to make a great RPG, that is a win-win for us gamers.
What do people think about that idea?