Regardless of who's fault it is, if the patch is never released there is just no way I could ever by a game from Overhaul/Beamdog again. If I bought a car that turned out to have engine parts missing, and the salesman tells me "Due to legal issues I can't fix the mistakes made in our factory," I'm not going back to that dealership.
... This is probably one of the most ridiculous reactions to this news that I've yet seen. First of all, the car analogy makes absolutely no sense (cf. "Lemon Law"), but let's not dwell on that part of it.
"Regardless of who's [sic] fault it is..."
Why doesn't it matter whose fault it is? When you try to cast Beamdog as a shady used car dealer, the implication there is that they're grifters out to make a quick buck without producing a quality product. This is clearly not the case at all, and the removal of product from their catalogue and the inability to service existing customers and products is something that is *clearly* out of Beamdog's control.
What you are basically doing here, is throwing a childish tantrum, *entirely* out of spite, then insist that what you're doing isn't spite-driven nor tantrum-like. And then, with a dramatic flourish, you declare that Beamdog has just permanently lost a customer.
No offense, Morehouse, but I sorta think Beamdog's better off without customers like you. 'Cuz right now, when they're up shit's creek and trying to get back on their feet, you did everything but offer them a hand up or a kind word.
Laughable, but not unexpected. Whenever one of these upstart or indy developers gets called out on their irresponsibility you get a rush of people coming to their defense. "Blame the corporate goons!" and "They are just poor innocent little game devs, don't hurt their feelings!" are the standard responses.
A good business takes responsibility for themselves, they don't wave their hands and say things are out of their control. Were they not at least responsible for making sure all their legal ducks were in a row BEFORE they started selling the game? The reason people like this go out of business is not because "the man" is out to get them, or because they have bad luck, it's because they think of themselves like modders among a community of friends and not like a business selling a product. I did not complain one time about Tutu, despite many flaws, because it was free. This is different.
To hear someone say things like "No offense, Morehouse, but I sorta think Beamdog's better off without customers like you" is so absurd. Were they better off without my $20? If so I will gladly take it back and will have no further complaints. Will they be better off when they go out of business because people are sick of buying a poorly made product? Fine then, next time they make a game they can sell 10 copies to you and the other loyal members of this community, and we'll see if that pays the rent.
"Cuz right now, when they're up shit's creek and trying to get back on their feet, you did everything but offer them a hand up or a kind word." LOL... yes, I'm the one being childish. When somebody sells something that doesn't work properly their customers pat them on the back and say "nice try, you'll get 'um next time." That's how the real world works, right?
Ah well, I think they are aware by now of my feelings. If they are listening to the word outside of this insulated little forum, they are aware that these feelings are shared by the majority of the gaming community. I waited quite a bit longer than most, who dismissed BG:EE as a buggy piece of crap on day one, but now I've had enough. If you want to go down down with the ship, as it were, feel free. I have nothing else to say on the matter.
Just a heads up for anyone still looking to buy the game.. Seems BG:EE is still for sale at Atari's webshop, digital edition. I came all the way to confirming the purchase (which i didn't since i already own it, duh) in an effort to see if it's still possible.
At no point did i get any information that the game was not for sale..
Just a heads up for anyone still looking to buy the game.. Seems BG:EE is still for sale at Atari's webshop, digital edition. I came all the way to confirming the purchase (which i didn't since i already own it, duh) in an effort to see if it's still possible.
At no point did i get any information that the game was not for sale..
The answer to your question is: Overhaul is legally prevented from publishing patches to the already published game and in the same time because they cannot sell the game any more and cannot get any revenue they decided to stop current and future work on the patch till the moment this matter is decided.
I'm sorry, do you know that or are you speculating? If you do know, than thanks for the answer, if not - I can speculate myself, and my understanding of these two quotes is different i.e. Beamdog cannot sell the game and make more money on it, so they are not going to work on the patch. Of course this is just speculating on what are not the clearest sentences in the world, hence my question in hope that someone who actually knows what's going on could enlighten us.
Atari Inc., Atari Interactive Inc., Humongous, Inc. and California US Holdings, Inc. (Atari Companies) have filed petitions for relief under chapter 11 of the United States Bankruptcy Code in the United States Bankruptcy Court for the Southern District of New York.
Chapter 11 affords the debtor in possession a number of mechanisms to restructure its business. A debtor in possession can acquire financing and loans on favorable terms by giving new lenders first priority on the business's earnings. The court may also permit the debtor in possession to reject and cancel contracts.
Once a bankruptcy is filed, the Trustee (a Chapter 11 debtor-in-possession acts in the same capacity as a trustee) may cure any default and preserve the remaining benefits of the debtor's unexpired executory contracts. Alternatively, the Trustee may unilaterally terminate an executory contract and minimize the financial impact of the default. An executory contract may be sold and assigned to a third party, even though the contract has a provision which otherwise prohibits assignment.
The debtor's rights under the contract, such as the remaining term of a favorable lease, may have significant value to the bankruptcy estate. The Trustee may wish to sell those rights for the benefit of the creditors.
The Trustee may elect to affirm and accept (assume) or terminate and surrender (reject) an executory contract or unexpired lease. Assumption requires court approval. Most courts will apply the "business judgment test" to determine if assumption is appropriate. Rejection is automatic if the contract is not assumed within a proscribed time. The entire contract must be assumed or rejected. The Trustee may not assume part of the contract and reject or modify the rest. The contract may not be assumed unless the Trustee first cures the defaults or provides "adequate assurance" that any defaults will be cured. With some exceptions, the Trustee may assume and assign an executory contract notwithstanding an anti-assignment clause in the contract unless applicable non-bankruptcy law excuses the non-debtor party from accepting or giving performance to a third party, such as a personal service contract, without the party's consent.
So, according to the United States legislation Overhaul that has an executory contract with Atari Companies is legally prevented from publishing patches while there's no resolution on this case.
... This is probably one of the most clarifying and useful bits of speculation yet offered in this thread. Being clear, it's still just speculation, because we really don't know for sure that this is what's happened, but it fits everything we do know very well. Well done, @bengoshi.
A good business takes responsibility for themselves, they don't wave their hands and say things are out of their control. Were they not at least responsible for making sure all their legal ducks were in a row BEFORE they started selling the game? The reason people like this go out of business is not because "the man" is out to get them, or because they have bad luck, it's because they think of themselves like modders among a community of friends and not like a business selling a product. I did not complain one time about Tutu, despite many flaws, because it was free. This is different.
@Morehouse - If you read @bengoshi's post above, you'll see that no contract is "iron-clad" when Chapter 11 bankruptcy is filed; so even if Beamdog had all their legal ducks in a row before starting work on BG:EE, Atari's bankruptcy filing in January changed the playing field. Since Atari can't unilaterally change the terms of the contract, what seems likely is that Atari previously sent Beamdog a notice that they will terminate the contract unless Beamdog renegotiates to terms more favorable to Atari's creditors. Making a further assumption that Atari demanded terms unacceptable to Beamdog (i.e., too much of the revenue for Beamdog to pay its staff), Atari then terminated the contract. With the contract terminated, Beamdog has no right to sell or distribute BG:EE.
This is all conjecture, of course, but it seems a reasonable story given the known facts.
So if this speculation is in fact accurate, Atari are now selling an unfinished, unpatched game for full price in order to lessen their own deficit towards creditors. Well knowing the game might never be finished at all and all of Beamdog's work is now just a big waste of time and they are truly ass invaded by corporate crocodiles?
In other words, if this were true, Beamdog might as well have never touched BG:EE because the entire effort will be erased from existance and history, depending on what happens to tbe IP?
Which leads us down another path, seeing how a lot of modders have stopped working on mods for Vanilla BG1/2 in view of getting it over on the EE platform instead.. and the modding community as a whole might not recover from this, effectively killing the longevity of the original releases?
Guess that's a bit of a mixed post, but it does sum up how I feel about this.. (given that it's true)
Well if BG:EE and BG2:EE never makes it, I can actually imagine the modding community joining forces to fix the issues in BG:EE and to port the BG2 content over to the BG:EE engine, so it might actually work out in the end.
Still hoping for Beamdog to finish what they started, though. I might actually be more excited about the unreleased BG:EE patch than BG2:EE itself.
I think I am going to stay away from the trolls today and instead look at the silver lining cloud.
I am excited about this. Truely I am. Yes I was waiting eagerly for the next patch and I was one of the first people to say I wanna pre-order BG2:EE now, but I am exciting about these other projects Trent has developers working on.
If they are getting on smashing well with the wizard folks, does that mean they may release another infinity engine game with a brand new campaign?! With new characters to love and loathe, new enemies to smite and perhaps a space hamster or two?
BG:EE was to get their feet wet, BG3 was their target, but perhaps another title before BG3 isn't a bad idea.
It will at least bring in some more revenue to feed Phillip Daigle instead of the trolls.
Personally, though I was looking forward for the patch and BG2:EE, I was never that excited regarding BG3. ToB was kind of a shoddy ending to the franchise, but it was an ending nonetheless, and what would there be left to do after fighting gods, acquiring 30+ levels, and separating from the group forever and getting to know their endings?
Well if BG:EE and BG2:EE never makes it, I can actually imagine the modding community joining forces to fix the issues in BG:EE and to port the BG2 content over to the BG:EE engine, so it might actually work out in the end.
Still hoping for Beamdog to finish what they started, though. I might actually be more excited about the unreleased BG:EE patch than BG2:EE itself.
Not sure... I guess some modders will prefer to stay with vanilla BG, as modding it is more documented, easier and more fulfilling. If BG2EE was finished, it would be a different story...
A number of active modders are either beta testers or contractors for Beamdog now, so transitioning from vBG to BGEE will primarily be a matter of converting old stuff to work with the new stuff.
@bengoshi, from what i read on your post, some of the things you said appear to be statements rather than speculations, so:
- ATARI petitioned for failure & recovery (or ATARI creditors filled it) in the Southern District of New York.
Is that right?
my assumptions:
So it's like a falency and recovery in my country. But then for the failure of ATARI directly affect Beamdog's business can only mean that BG's copyrights are still with ATARI, thus Beamdog is an employee performer of the project in fact. A lend of copyrights would risk no harm to the "debtor in possession", that would be only benefit the "debtor in possession" (money would only flow in) and a third party in good faith would not be so directly harmed also, but the cost of payroll employees would surely hamper this "falency and recovery".
So being us paying customers, not only Beamdog's customers but ATARI's also, shouldn't her be obligated to divulge information that harmed third parties in good faith, aka US CUSTOMERS? Maybe things work different in USA courts, but doesn't any of us have the right to petition in ATARI's Bankrupt as third party interested? (if anyone want this kind of problem for $20 of course, but still it's an right that exist). We are, we all are in fact, creditors of a product sold indirectly by ATARI, through Beamdog if this assumption is right.
We may be focusing the heat on the wrong target, but then, if this is the case Beamdog should have stated this from the begin instead of take the heat and try to justify the issues. Even if i'm not from USA and thus, not knowing much of USA laws, hide informations from customers (or creditors) that can bring harm to them is illegal, thus any contractual obligation imposed by ATARI would be hindered with no effect. I don't state this as an scorn to Beamdog, i meant this cos no contractual clause could obligate a company to act with illegality, specially when it comes to customers with which Beamdog have contracts "in benefit of ATARI".
Based, or not, on these assumptions, i would like to ask if a pool made here in this forum requesting an official position from ATARI would have effect (would it be delivered to ATARI at least to be answered with something official?).
I can give my support to Beamdog, the devs close to us, ppl that not only brought BG back but also many of the devs are modders bringing free content (and adapting old mods for us as well), however i don't have any reason to be nice or comprehensive with ATARI. They wouldn't think twice in charge me for anything i ought to they, they want to make money and they just did it, but i want what i paid for but when comes for they duty, even the duty of inform they customers, we're left in the dark.
Well.... what's updated in the engine? the fact I can zoom in and out (nice) and the fact it doesn't work properly on my Intel GPU, which BG2 does
That is odd, because on mine it works infinitely better, faster, more reliably, and has eliminated loading times almost entirely.
Agreed. The engine seem to have been very thoroughly, and quite expertly, optimized and streamlined. Further, I don't remember the last time I was able to so painlessly install and run an Infinity Engine game on a modern version of Windows. The engine improvements alone are worth the $20, IMHO.
The dungeons and dragons anthology "the master collection" is $20 and can run on windows 7 and has bg1 & 2,iwd 1&2,the temple of elemental evil and torment...they all work cause I fired them up when I got it..i bought mine off amazon.....I was playing this before bgee came out.
It's... true... indeed, BG+ToSC (what BG:EE cover), BG2+ToB, IWD+IWD2, ToEE and PS:T for $19.95. It's an awesome offer, they're old games indeed and each already got his share of single sales in their respective release, they're virtual sales thus the saler doesn't spend money in the process, but no matter what it's an excelent offer.
The dungeons and dragons anthology "the master collection" is $20 and can run on windows 7 and has bg1 & 2,iwd 1&2,the temple of elemental evil and torment...they all work cause I fired them up when I got it..i bought mine off amazon.....I was playing this before bgee came out.
It was a great offer, but surely, unless I'm missing something it has ended?
Well.... what's updated in the engine? the fact I can zoom in and out (nice) and the fact it doesn't work properly on my Intel GPU, which BG2 does
That is odd, because on mine it works infinitely better, faster, more reliably, and has eliminated loading times almost entirely.
Oh come on, I'm not making this up have a look at the changes in the patch we've been waiting for, it was supposed to address problems with Intel openGL which resulted in some graphic glitches in BGEE (granted Intel openGL is not a full implementation, but original BG2 had no problem with it) Maybe my computer is vastly different than yours, but loading times are the same. It seems faster simply because there are almost no mods compared to vanilla. Anyway, there are no terrible problems in the engine, but it is not different. It would be different if they implemented something like IWD2 interface with buttons you could reconfigure. Now, that would be worth any money
It seems there are 3 versions about how BG:EE runs:
1. Flawlessly, no problems at all. 2. Buggy, annoying to the user. 3. Doesn't run at all.
I belong to number 3 and am anxiously waiting for the patch with the new renderer. I really hope, and wish them the best luck, that Beamdog will rise triumphant from the storm and bring the fans the joy they have already started spreading
(On a side note, it was "good" for me that the patch didn't come out yet. I had lots of tests at college and playing BG is really tempting :P)
Beamdog to Atari: "you'd be a fool to think I would trust your benevolence, step aside, and you and your lackeys will go unhurt"
Yeah, let's hope Atari doesn't respond with "I'm sorry that you feel that way, old man." Really, I'm not sure this is the analogy we want to draw, considering how that fight ends.
Beamdog to Atari: "you'd be a fool to think I would trust your benevolence, step aside, and you and your lackeys will go unhurt"
Yeah, let's hope Atari doesn't respond with "I'm sorry that you feel that way, old man." Really, I'm not sure this is the analogy we want to draw, considering how that fight ends.
The fans kill Atari after traveling through the Sword Coast? :P
Comments
A good business takes responsibility for themselves, they don't wave their hands and say things are out of their control. Were they not at least responsible for making sure all their legal ducks were in a row BEFORE they started selling the game? The reason people like this go out of business is not because "the man" is out to get them, or because they have bad luck, it's because they think of themselves like modders among a community of friends and not like a business selling a product. I did not complain one time about Tutu, despite many flaws, because it was free. This is different.
To hear someone say things like "No offense, Morehouse, but I sorta think Beamdog's better off without customers like you" is so absurd. Were they better off without my $20? If so I will gladly take it back and will have no further complaints. Will they be better off when they go out of business because people are sick of buying a poorly made product? Fine then, next time they make a game they can sell 10 copies to you and the other loyal members of this community, and we'll see if that pays the rent.
"Cuz right now, when they're up shit's creek and trying to get back on their feet, you did everything but offer them a hand up or a kind word." LOL... yes, I'm the one being childish. When somebody sells something that doesn't work properly their customers pat them on the back and say "nice try, you'll get 'um next time." That's how the real world works, right?
Ah well, I think they are aware by now of my feelings. If they are listening to the word outside of this insulated little forum, they are aware that these feelings are shared by the majority of the gaming community. I waited quite a bit longer than most, who dismissed BG:EE as a buggy piece of crap on day one, but now I've had enough. If you want to go down down with the ship, as it were, feel free. I have nothing else to say on the matter.
At no point did i get any information that the game was not for sale..
This is all conjecture, of course, but it seems a reasonable story given the known facts.
Well knowing the game might never be finished at all and all of Beamdog's work is now just a big waste of time and they are truly ass invaded by corporate crocodiles?
In other words, if this were true, Beamdog might as well have never touched BG:EE because the entire effort will be erased from existance and history, depending on what happens to tbe IP?
Which leads us down another path, seeing how a lot of modders have stopped working on mods for Vanilla BG1/2 in view of getting it over on the EE platform instead.. and the modding community as a whole might not recover from this, effectively killing the longevity of the original releases?
Guess that's a bit of a mixed post, but it does sum up how I feel about this.. (given that it's true)
Still hoping for Beamdog to finish what they started, though. I might actually be more excited about the unreleased BG:EE patch than BG2:EE itself.
I am excited about this. Truely I am. Yes I was waiting eagerly for the next patch and I was one of the first people to say I wanna pre-order BG2:EE now, but I am exciting about these other projects Trent has developers working on.
If they are getting on smashing well with the wizard folks, does that mean they may release another infinity engine game with a brand new campaign?! With new characters to love and loathe, new enemies to smite and perhaps a space hamster or two?
BG:EE was to get their feet wet, BG3 was their target, but perhaps another title before BG3 isn't a bad idea.
It will at least bring in some more revenue to feed Phillip Daigle instead of the trolls.
- ATARI petitioned for failure & recovery (or ATARI creditors filled it) in the Southern District of New York.
Is that right?
my assumptions:
So it's like a falency and recovery in my country. But then for the failure of ATARI directly affect Beamdog's business can only mean that BG's copyrights are still with ATARI, thus Beamdog is an employee performer of the project in fact. A lend of copyrights would risk no harm to the "debtor in possession", that would be only benefit the "debtor in possession" (money would only flow in) and a third party in good faith would not be so directly harmed also, but the cost of payroll employees would surely hamper this "falency and recovery".
So being us paying customers, not only Beamdog's customers but ATARI's also, shouldn't her be obligated to divulge information that harmed third parties in good faith, aka US CUSTOMERS? Maybe things work different in USA courts, but doesn't any of us have the right to petition in ATARI's Bankrupt as third party interested? (if anyone want this kind of problem for $20 of course, but still it's an right that exist). We are, we all are in fact, creditors of a product sold indirectly by ATARI, through Beamdog if this assumption is right.
We may be focusing the heat on the wrong target, but then, if this is the case Beamdog should have stated this from the begin instead of take the heat and try to justify the issues. Even if i'm not from USA and thus, not knowing much of USA laws, hide informations from customers (or creditors) that can bring harm to them is illegal, thus any contractual obligation imposed by ATARI would be hindered with no effect. I don't state this as an scorn to Beamdog, i meant this cos no contractual clause could obligate a company to act with illegality, specially when it comes to customers with which Beamdog have contracts "in benefit of ATARI".
Based, or not, on these assumptions, i would like to ask if a pool made here in this forum requesting an official position from ATARI would have effect (would it be delivered to ATARI at least to be answered with something official?).
I can give my support to Beamdog, the devs close to us, ppl that not only brought BG back but also many of the devs are modders bringing free content (and adapting old mods for us as well), however i don't have any reason to be nice or comprehensive with ATARI. They wouldn't think twice in charge me for anything i ought to they, they want to make money and they just did it, but i want what i paid for but when comes for they duty, even the duty of inform they customers, we're left in the dark.
1. Flawlessly, no problems at all.
2. Buggy, annoying to the user.
3. Doesn't run at all.
I belong to number 3 and am anxiously waiting for the patch with the new renderer. I really hope, and wish them the best luck, that Beamdog will rise triumphant from the storm and bring the fans the joy they have already started spreading
(On a side note, it was "good" for me that the patch didn't come out yet. I had lots of tests at college and playing BG is really tempting :P)
I know you guys are working hard on it
The fans kill Atari after traveling through the Sword Coast? :P