Some NPCs are irritated by the presence of Viconia, but those reactions are few and far between. We would likely just ignore the fact that the player is a Drow, if we add sub-races. I mean, nobody seems to mind when you burst into a tavern bristling with swords and summoned magical beasts.
Although if they did mind, I doubt they would mention it.
Like @Aliteri says, the first time (and second) time you meet Viconia some "normal" human is trying to kill/roast her so people's reactions to drow is usually hostile. It would be hard to ignore. Go half-drow. It's a good compromise.
Personally, the Drow race is meant (in 2.5e) as a NPC race. In this case, however, as long as I make it close to PnP and not make it OP, it could work.
I'm working on a personal project that involves adding subraces to the game, including drow. One thing that should be added, however, is less XP gain - this makes it less of a OP race.
@Kharador I could not agree more that more choice is nearly always better when role playing
@Aliteri Drizzit aside the DnD universe can be deterministic, but I think it is up to a good Dungeon Master, or in this case the developers to counteract this. To my mind the best characters (on both sides) are shades of grey, not black and white. Allowing some of the more typically evil races in as player characters leaves it up to the player to decide whether or not to use them, and if they wish think up a suitable back story as to why this could have occurred, after all the players character is a unique soul in the DnD universe, part god, part mortal and can forge their own destiny independent of their race.
As for why would Gorion bring some weird monster spawn home, well he is a wise mage who has a thing about not killing children, regardless of their parents, I would be much more worried about the half of the child who is the god of murder, than his kobold mum. (and thus Deekin the bard was spawned!)
Oh, I myself dislike determinism. I always 'phase it out' when I'm playing by myself, but when with others... things do get more complicated, especially if the DM (be it a human or a computer game) doesn't really step into the fray and determine wether the universe is deterministic or not (after all, DMs need no rules of any kind).
Though a suppose a drow and orc races would be the game telling us that in these Forgotten Realms, those two races are 'always chaotic/lawful/neutral evil'.
Drow are hugely popular, which is why we'd consider them for addition along with a few others (Duergar!).
I'd like to believe that we don't buy into determinism - for our content we usually try to give a reason for monsters being hostile to the player. And it's not difficult, you don't have to be intrinsically evil to take up arms against a bunch of warriors stumbling into your cave and stealing everything.
Drow are hugely popular, which is why we'd consider them for addition along with a few others (Duergar!).
I'd like to believe that we don't buy into determinism - for our content we usually try to give a reason for monsters being hostile to the player. And it's not difficult, you don't have to be intrinsically evil to take up arms against a bunch of warriors stumbling into your cave and stealing everything.
@Dazzu You can never focus too much on elves. They should replace the introductory narration with the introduction from The Complete Book of Elves. This would be an improvement.
@PhillipDaigle Its true that it doesn't make you evil to defend your home against blood thirsty adventurers, and I don't think BG2 does too badly on the non deterministic front, but I would like to see more neutral/good portrayals of monsters in BG1. A good examples of this is in BG2 are the deserters in Umar Hills who you are able to broker a peace with. I can't really think of a situation in BG1 where you can resolve a dispute with monster races with anything other than the business end of a sword. The now infamous Nexlit and his Xvarts would be one place in which this could be improved, possibly negotiating with the gnolls for the release of Dynaheir. As it stands pretty much everything will try to kill you on sight.
I'd love to see the drow subrace in game like it was in icewind dale 2, but think it's a bit too much work to change a lot of the NPCS behaviour towards the character? After all it'd make no sense if all npcs would just refer your character as an ''Elf''
If Orcs, Ogres and Half-Ogres are being added as playable, shouldn't these as well...? Y'know, for fun.
You see, this is exactly where D&D 3rd Ed. jumped the shark for me. Just my two cents, mind you.
Really? that was actually something I thought was really interesting. It expanded the range of character, giving players and DMs alike the opportunity to experience life as the "other", opening doors to understanding the more common enemies. If you've played a goblin before as a character, you might think twice about slaughtering that village of xvarts "just because".
That's not to say I think drow should be playable for the CharName, but I would say it's anything but a flaw in 3.x/Pathfinder.
@PhillipDaigle Its true that it doesn't make you evil to defend your home against blood thirsty adventurers, and I don't think BG2 does too badly on the non deterministic front, but I would like to see more neutral/good portrayals of monsters in BG1. A good examples of this is in BG2 are the deserters in Umar Hills who you are able to broker a peace with. I can't really think of a situation in BG1 where you can resolve a dispute with monster races with anything other than the business end of a sword. The now infamous Nexlit and his Xvarts would be one place in which this could be improved, possibly negotiating with the gnolls for the release of Dynaheir. As it stands pretty much everything will try to kill you on sight.
We are striving for more conversation options with monsters - in some of the new content you can broker a deal with some ##REDACTED## to help defend their home against ##REDACTED##. Further along, you can actually recruit ##REDACTED## to help you in the a battle against ##REDACTED##.
I'm totally against a main char drow, ppl must see that a surface drow goes far beyond his class or ability, far beyond numbers and advantages, you need to remake the entire history for that.
Maybe ppl tolerate you in candlekeep by respect or fear of Gorion, but no other reason would allow a drow main char to walk in the main history with no flaws.
I even think viconia needed more problems in BG1 when the character is somehow common and with no danger reputation (as of being a son of bhaal) to avoid problems, that only incident with the flame fist is not enough for me.
As a drow, to make ppl accept you in a city, NPCs follow you... BG just don't have a history sequence that allow this. You could make a beholder main char for the same purpose to understand the crazy that would become the history.
Think in someone dressed and exactly like Osama Bin Laden walking in the middle of New York city, triyng to take care of his business. Drow are the enemy, with a main char of high reputation in BG2 she is tolerated, with a low reputation she is feared, and if you make her romance at least once, you know she was chased by ppl after she left main char company betwen the transition of BG to BG2 EVEN AFTER SAVE BALDUR'S GATE.
In my humble opinion, everything in the game doesn't have to be realistic or consistent. If a player really wanted to choose a drow character, that player would just have to use their imagination for the details lacking in game. That applies even if the devs decide to add a few incidents for drow (and perhaps orc, et c) characters.
Thinking of it, I feel that a nice way to add some consistancy to playing a drow character, would be to just add a few simple random encounters at the start of the game, that involves angry villagers or similar. Perhaps just a mob of farmers, villagers or soldiers warning you that the drow child of gorion just isn't welcome outside the walls of candlekeep.
I disagree entirely, we are speaking about a RPG. If the game isn't consistent with, at least and most importantly, itself, then there's no point to anything, there's no roleplaying - there's no point to making the choice of being a drow if the consequences that the game already imposes on a drow party member gloss over the main character.
And while you speak of imagination... well I myself enjoy the role of imagination on a CRPG, especially older ones but imagination, in my opinion, should be consistent and conditioned by the game's content. There's a line somewhere between complementing the game by imagining as a scene or room unravels before your mindeye, as described by a paragraph in game (such as the dialogue choices you're presented with, or the description of a cavern), and, rather frankly, writting fan fiction - not really a wrong practice but it shouldn't serve to excuse an RPG's inconsistency or lack of content.
Mind you, I understand just how idealistic I'm being - if due to time/IP or similar constraints they can't add that sort of change to the main game just for adding the drow race but would still do it, then I wouldn't oppose it so vehemently (though I suppose it would be best to just make it relatively easy to add races/subraces, so that people can mod their game to their liking, no matter the game's consistency).
I confess that I don't know the Forgotten Realms setting outside of the game series, but being consistent with itself takes precedence over being consistent with outside sources - meaning that wether the issues Viconia faces are enough or not is, relatively, a minor concern the problem Viconia faces should also be imposed on the player when applicable and possible.
As I suggested earlier, maybe when you first meet Viconia, as she's being prosecuted by simply being a drow, you simply don't have the option to leave her to her fate, by being a drow yourself you simply cannot avoid that battle.
@Aliteri Well, making the choice of being a dwarf over an elf or human doesn't really have any effect on the roleplaying aspects of the game either, except for the character stats and visual appearance. The roleplaying aspects of choosing a dwarf is already left to your imagination. I don't need every single villager to acknowledge that I am a dwarf and treat me differently than if I was a human, even though it'd be a nice feature. I do understand that there is a difference when playing a drow as it is a natural enemy of the surface world, but still I don't need it to be acknowledged in every possible encounter, as I can use my imagination to replace the little details that isn't shown on screen or in dialogue, just as I'd do with a dwarf or halfling character. Having a lower starting reputation than player characters of the other races would in itself be enough for me.
There are probably situations in the game however, where it'd just be stupid and immersion breaking if the game didn't acknowledge the fact that you're a drow. I can't think of any right know though, but I'm sure that those few situations can be solved. In any case the main focus of the game will still not be you roleplaying a drow, but you roleplaying a bhaalspawn and son of gorion.
The social consequences of being a dwarf are but a little prank compared to those of being a drow. In Faerun, dwarves are pretty common and commonly accepted, so of course their race wouldn't be acknowledged in every encounter. You could at worst run into the occasional grouch who doesn't trust/like dwarves, or whatever race other than their own, and treats you with contempt but it can hardly go beyond that.
A drow, on the other hand... They are not just "enemies of the surface world": they are feared and loathed, killed on sight by the guards of most big cities and literally soaked in prejudice. If Drizzt novels are any indication of how drows are perceived in the surface world (and I see no reason why they shouldn't), being a "good" drow is not going to make you any more likable in the vast majority of situations. In this regard, @kamuizin is right: Viconia unrealistically faces but a few minor inconvenices compared to what she should for being a drow. That's fine, though, for if everyone tried to kill her on sight that would sorta kill the fun, too. But a drow CHARNAME is another story: they're the main character, the party leader, the one who does the talking and carries the reputation. Giving a drow CHARNAME the same kind of "easy life" as given to a CHARNAME of any other race would be unfair and excessively unrealistic, imho.
Then again, as I said, I'm too adamant about this. I'm just sharing my thoughts, that's all.
Seriously, to back up Andrea, BW did a terrible job of dealing with Viconia. Let's not compound that by pretending that inside every drow is a Drizzt trying to get out.
although i like the idea of playing the game like a drow i see no point if there will be no consequences for it. people should react to you being their epitome of evil.
for example, remember the idewind dale 2? you had the ability to play as the bunch of matron mothers worshiping the s*** out of Lolth, but at the end, when you came to targos dock, the guy there, although surprised, demands without further delay you help save the town. and...you did it.
really? adventuring party consisting of duergar, drow mages and matrons dutifully helping to save ten towns? and if they are of good alignment they become beloved heroes beyond suspicion as soon as they lift the spoon of the ground in a heroic way?
while the thought of "evil races" was fun, it had virtually no effect on gameplay except few obligatory references to my race and how distrustful they are and how weird is to see me, only to ask for help immediately after. in the end i stopped playing as drow and reverted to other variants of elves.
i think subraces would be excellent addition to the game and i do not argue they should not be implemented. they should! but for above reasons i will avoid playing drow, because for the role-playing purposes it would be like playing elf with white hair and blue skin and maybe somebody ocasionally saying "gosh, you're a drow!" before letting me browse their wares.
Comments
Minor story inconsistencies from Drow being added as a race choice after-release is definitely something I could live with.
Then I remembered the thread was on drows, and there's this:http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/OverusedCopycatCharacter (the page's image).
I'm working on a personal project that involves adding subraces to the game, including drow. One thing that should be added, however, is less XP gain - this makes it less of a OP race.
Just the most variety of choices is the best for the gameplay
@Aliteri Drizzit aside the DnD universe can be deterministic, but I think it is up to a good Dungeon Master, or in this case the developers to counteract this. To my mind the best characters (on both sides) are shades of grey, not black and white. Allowing some of the more typically evil races in as player characters leaves it up to the player to decide whether or not to use them, and if they wish think up a suitable back story as to why this could have occurred, after all the players character is a unique soul in the DnD universe, part god, part mortal and can forge their own destiny independent of their race.
As for why would Gorion bring some weird monster spawn home, well he is a wise mage who has a thing about not killing children, regardless of their parents, I would be much more worried about the half of the child who is the god of murder, than his kobold mum. (and thus Deekin the bard was spawned!)
It's my preferred race :P
Aluve
Oh, I myself dislike determinism. I always 'phase it out' when I'm playing by myself, but when with others... things do get more complicated, especially if the DM (be it a human or a computer game) doesn't really step into the fray and determine wether the universe is deterministic or not (after all, DMs need no rules of any kind).
Though a suppose a drow and orc races would be the game telling us that in these Forgotten Realms, those two races are 'always chaotic/lawful/neutral evil'.
I'd like to believe that we don't buy into determinism - for our content we usually try to give a reason for monsters being hostile to the player. And it's not difficult, you don't have to be intrinsically evil to take up arms against a bunch of warriors stumbling into your cave and stealing everything.
Why can't we get orcs, ogres and half-ogres first before we get some subraces?
If Orcs, Ogres and Half-Ogres are being added as playable, shouldn't these as well...? Y'know, for fun.
That's not to say I think drow should be playable for the CharName, but I would say it's anything but a flaw in 3.x/Pathfinder.
Maybe ppl tolerate you in candlekeep by respect or fear of Gorion, but no other reason would allow a drow main char to walk in the main history with no flaws.
I even think viconia needed more problems in BG1 when the character is somehow common and with no danger reputation (as of being a son of bhaal) to avoid problems, that only incident with the flame fist is not enough for me.
As a drow, to make ppl accept you in a city, NPCs follow you... BG just don't have a history sequence that allow this. You could make a beholder main char for the same purpose to understand the crazy that would become the history.
Think in someone dressed and exactly like Osama Bin Laden walking in the middle of New York city, triyng to take care of his business. Drow are the enemy, with a main char of high reputation in BG2 she is tolerated, with a low reputation she is feared, and if you make her romance at least once, you know she was chased by ppl after she left main char company betwen the transition of BG to BG2 EVEN AFTER SAVE BALDUR'S GATE.
I disagree entirely, we are speaking about a RPG. If the game isn't consistent with, at least and most importantly, itself, then there's no point to anything, there's no roleplaying - there's no point to making the choice of being a drow if the consequences that the game already imposes on a drow party member gloss over the main character.
And while you speak of imagination... well I myself enjoy the role of imagination on a CRPG, especially older ones but imagination, in my opinion, should be consistent and conditioned by the game's content. There's a line somewhere between complementing the game by imagining as a scene or room unravels before your mindeye, as described by a paragraph in game (such as the dialogue choices you're presented with, or the description of a cavern), and, rather frankly, writting fan fiction - not really a wrong practice but it shouldn't serve to excuse an RPG's inconsistency or lack of content.
Mind you, I understand just how idealistic I'm being - if due to time/IP or similar constraints they can't add that sort of change to the main game just for adding the drow race but would still do it, then I wouldn't oppose it so vehemently (though I suppose it would be best to just make it relatively easy to add races/subraces, so that people can mod their game to their liking, no matter the game's consistency).
@kamuizin
I confess that I don't know the Forgotten Realms setting outside of the game series, but being consistent with itself takes precedence over being consistent with outside sources - meaning that wether the issues Viconia faces are enough or not is, relatively, a minor concern the problem Viconia faces should also be imposed on the player when applicable and possible.
As I suggested earlier, maybe when you first meet Viconia, as she's being prosecuted by simply being a drow, you simply don't have the option to leave her to her fate, by being a drow yourself you simply cannot avoid that battle.
There are probably situations in the game however, where it'd just be stupid and immersion breaking if the game didn't acknowledge the fact that you're a drow. I can't think of any right know though, but I'm sure that those few situations can be solved. In any case the main focus of the game will still not be you roleplaying a drow, but you roleplaying a bhaalspawn and son of gorion.
A drow, on the other hand... They are not just "enemies of the surface world": they are feared and loathed, killed on sight by the guards of most big cities and literally soaked in prejudice. If Drizzt novels are any indication of how drows are perceived in the surface world (and I see no reason why they shouldn't), being a "good" drow is not going to make you any more likable in the vast majority of situations. In this regard, @kamuizin is right: Viconia unrealistically faces but a few minor inconvenices compared to what she should for being a drow. That's fine, though, for if everyone tried to kill her on sight that would sorta kill the fun, too. But a drow CHARNAME is another story: they're the main character, the party leader, the one who does the talking and carries the reputation. Giving a drow CHARNAME the same kind of "easy life" as given to a CHARNAME of any other race would be unfair and excessively unrealistic, imho.
Then again, as I said, I'm too adamant about this. I'm just sharing my thoughts, that's all.
for example, remember the idewind dale 2? you had the ability to play as the bunch of matron mothers worshiping the s*** out of Lolth, but at the end, when you came to targos dock, the guy there, although surprised, demands without further delay you help save the town. and...you did it.
really? adventuring party consisting of duergar, drow mages and matrons dutifully helping to save ten towns?
and if they are of good alignment they become beloved heroes beyond suspicion as soon as they lift the spoon of the ground in a heroic way?
while the thought of "evil races" was fun, it had virtually no effect on gameplay except few obligatory references to my race and how distrustful they are and how weird is to see me, only to ask for help immediately after. in the end i stopped playing as drow and reverted to other variants of elves.
i think subraces would be excellent addition to the game and i do not argue they should not be implemented. they should! but for above reasons i will avoid playing drow, because for the role-playing purposes it would be like playing elf with white hair and blue skin and maybe somebody ocasionally saying "gosh, you're a drow!" before letting me browse their wares.