A pretty good solution for the Drow problem is to start at reputation 0, or even negative rep if such a thing is possible. You would have to work quite hard just to not be harrassed by the Fist, and even then you would still be hated. Ideally the best you could hope for is to maybe achieve average reputation by the time you confront Sarevok.
Why would anyone throw a fit over Drow being included in the game? Even if they do add content to the game involving Drow, it would not deter you from playing any other character. It would not affect you one bit.
I think this is the best point made so far. So let's look at implementing them properly. Here are the character creation guidelines for Drow as outlined in The Complete Book of Elves.
Drow 2nd edition stats Ability Score Adjustments: Drow are extraordinarily dexterous and intelligent. They gain a bonus of +2 to Dexterity and a +1 to Intelligence. However, their personalities can be described as grating at best (although not usually to their faces), and they have the typical elf Constitution. Thus, they have a -2 penalty to Charisma and a -1 to their initial Constitution scores.
Special Advantages: Once per day, all drow can use the spells dancing lights, faerie fire, and darkness. They achieve this through force of will, rather than spell components. A 4thlevel drow can cast levitate, know alignment, and detect magic once per day. In addition, drow priests can cast clairvoyance, detect lie, suggestion, and dispel magic once a day.
At the start, drow are 50% magic resistant, and every level they rise increases the resistance by 2% (to a maximum of 80%). Multiclassed drow use the higher level to determine this bonus. In addition to their high magic resistance, drow also receive a +2 bonus on all saves involving magic. This indudes those devices that emit magical effects or are powered by magic. This magic resistance does not hamper their ability to use magic themselves, however.
The major disadvantage of the drow is their inability to see in bright light. Any light greater than that of torches or continual light spells (including bright sunliit) will blind them and severely affect their ability to fight. Wan l i t , like that of a light spell, does not trigger this disadvantage. Bright light causes the drow to suffer, temporarily, -2 to Dexterity. Attack rolls are made at a -2 penalty, and opponents gain a +2 save against drow spells if they are within the light. When a drow is in darkness and his opponents are in the light, he retains his Dexterity and surprise advantages but still suffers a penalty on attack rolls. If the drow spends more than two weeks away from the subterranean caverns of the Underdark, the special advantages fade at the rate of one power a day. This starts from the most innate spellcasting and works down to the least powerful. Thus, a drow priest would first lose dispel magic, followed by suggestion, clairvoyance, and detect lie. Drow magic resistance is lost at a rate of 10% per day. This process can be halted and the powers regained if the drow returns to the Underdark and spends one day there for each week spent aboveground. Finally, all other elves hate the drow, and reactions to them are with at least a -4 penalty. This modifier is cumulative to any kits the drow player might be using. Only after a particular elf comes to accept a particular drow as a friend, does this penalty disappear. Additional Experience Cost: 20 % .
So, with this in mind it's clear all drow PCs should have the following adjustments: +2 Dex, +1 Int, -2 Cha, -1 Con No spell powers and no magic resistance, as you've spent your life on the surface for years with Gorion A -2 penalty to dex and -2 to hit whenever your infravision's not in use A 20% experience penalty
I think most people are annoyed because this game tends to glorify elves enough as is. It's more of a Hype backlash.
There's really no love for other races. How many NPCs are elf, human or a mix of the two? Compare those numbers to the amount of other races used or encouraged to be used.
A little love for Half-Orcs and Dwarves would be nice.
Incompetent quote XD (i really don't know how to do this):
"Why would anyone throw a fit over Drow being included in the game? Even if they do add content to the game involving Drow, it would not deter you from playing any other character. It would not affect you one bit."
I think is just fallacy, the same goes to why not a beholder, why not a mind flayer, after all you don't need to play with them.
@Edvin viconia ONLY survived that encounter cos the elvens make a deal with main char, you think they would make the same with a drow main char? Ok it's how you see it, i just don't see this working out.
Me neither. Add the fact that you would be in a weak party with two drows... I don't think any merchant would be scared, horrified would be more like it.
The adventure will be the way it's always been. If NPC reactions could've been changed, why not, but it would be weird to talk to random paladins as a drow and just get a "have a nice day!" without any reaction at all.
Why would anyone throw a fit over Drow being included in the game? Even if they do add content to the game involving Drow, it would not deter you from playing any other character. It would not affect you one bit.
So, with this in mind it's clear all drow PCs should have the following adjustments: +2 Dex, +1 Int, -2 Cha, -1 Con No spell powers and no magic resistance, as you've spent your life on the surface for years with Gorion A -2 penalty to dex and -2 to hit whenever your infravision's not in use A 20% experience penalty
This sound like a good enough solution. If mixed whit insane low rep. outside candlekeep. Possibility to raise the rep in major cities but not in remote villages. Rewritten dialogs to fit an drow leading the party etc. Something like that anyways, would have been pritty cool actually but outside contract etc
@FillaFillason as you i support no drows, but i don't agree with the stats, if you take the magic resistance and spell powers cos the main char wasn't raised in underdark, you can't give him the penalities of a normal drow of -2dex and -2 hit on the surface.
Fair enough. That daylight mod could be tricky to code, anyways.
+2 Dex, +1 Int, -2 Cha, -1 Con No spell powers and no magic resistance, as you've spent your life on the surface for years with Gorion A 20% experience penalty
Considering Charisma is typically a dump stat, and that 16 con is the most non-fighters need anyways, that about balances right.
I just guess why Drows had a charisma penality, cos charisma =/= reputation. I was just thinking this now. Charisma roleplay the inner print of a person, not knowledge or lore of a race/ethnicity.
In neverwinter nights 2 for what i saw, they have +2 dex/int/cha and -2 con, to balance things in BG if someone want to unnoficialy mod this, a +1 dex/int and -2 con would be better.
Why would anyone throw a fit over Drow being included in the game? Even if they do add content to the game involving Drow, it would not deter you from playing any other character. It would not affect you one bit. Said inclusions would only work on ONE part of the game. If you don't like it, don't play as a Drow? [...] This senseless argument is stupid at best, and honestly alot of people have come up with some very good arguments for putting Drow into the game. [...] The inclusion of people not trusting Drow could be easy. There are many things in the game that cause others to not trust you through your actions depending on how you play anyway. Like being evil, whether or not you become a renowned thief, or become known for the way you interact with the world in general. In BG2 you can be a half-orc I believe, and it DOES effect the way you interact with the world.
There are several things here that I disagree with. First of all, the fact that the game including something won't necessarily affect my playthrough doesn't mean that I can't be opposed to it being in the game.
Assuming for a moment (indulge me) that the Drow are included as a playable race and are clearly more powerful than the other races, and assuming that the dev team can't alter the original content enough to appropriately compensate for them story-wise, having them as a playable race will affect the game for new players. This is a big deal as far as I'm concerned, as I care about the quality of the game as a whole, not just my specific experience. A new player will often (if not always) pick the race that is clearly the most powerful, which inherently changes the game itself as it affects the way that it's played by all new players.
As far as experienced players that want to be a Drow are concerned, I couldn't care less, you're welcome to. But this desire, if it's unbalanced or doesn't make sense, should be fulfilled by a mod that you can choose to implement, not included as a part of the official product itself.
Charisma measures a character’s force of personality, persuasiveness, personal magnetism, ability to lead, and physical attractiveness. This ability represents actual strength of personality, not merely how one is perceived by others in a social setting. I disagree with -2 Cha. I agree with low reputation and a minor number of racial traits, if the character is not born in the underdark between the magic radiation of the faerzress (deliver thee in this case the penalty to experience points).
Maybe Viconia would be happy to have the true racial traits of a drow u_u
There is a working subrace mod which adds the Drow race into the game. Making it a core part will break the entire logic of the game and so it would require major changes in the plot and dialogues. There is a place for only one Drizzt and only one Viconia on the surface... Well and Qilué Veladorn and Liriel Baenre and Tos'un Armgo... Well, um..., it seems, that there are already legions of drows walking under the sun. Still, adding it would make a same sense as if they would add, let's say, a blackguard kit. Heh, I mean can you imagine a Blackguard training under the tutelage of a Harper Mage? Oh wait....
Subraces could make a nice addition to the game. But I advice some kind of a "decency" when you are stepping into a 15 years of history. I'm all for new quests with quality story and presentation at least on the level of the famous Tower of Deception mod (so please kick out that Underdark Arena from the game or change it substantially - so far it sounds horrible). I'm also all for adding new races, subraces and classes. But please stop before a completely foreign border. Wild elf, Shield Dwarf etc. are completely ok. Aasimar, tiefling, Yuan-ti pureblood, genasi are on the level of a Half-orc (some of their differences can be covered and they don't enjoy the same level of bad reputation as a duergars or dark elves). Imagination needs a focus to achieve something worth the time...
@Jab you touch another sensitive point, the Kits. I for one favor quest kits more than character creation kit. During character creation you're warrior, priest, ranger... etc... want a kit? Battle for it. Do the right quests and find a tutor, tome, deity, powerfull creature or potion that give you the kit.
@AndreaColombo This is very popular section because many people realy like drows.
How hard can by add Drow race ? Playing common drow race need some special rules BUT, CHARNAME is not common drow because he was born under sun and live under sun his all live. So now he is nearly normal elf, because sun burn off all his special power.
So now we need only modify first talk ( when we first meet ) with Viconia ( and mayby few more, if she have new content ). We don´t need any " special " talk with others people, because ours CHARNAME wear cape like Viconia ( and Drizzt and all drows on surface ).
Taking the fact we know now of the Black Pits DLC, inside that separate adventure, that has no link with the original game, i see no problem in implmenet a drow character there, in fact they can put Aasimar/Tiefling, half ogre, and any other race there that will be fair.
Yes but there is one small problem, Aasimars and Tieflings have little god and devil blood. I can´t imagine Baal f**king gods and devils to get more children
btw: All Baal children are from this realm and Aasimars and Tieflings are outrealms beings.
In AD&D, players weren't really supposed to have access to races other than those in the Player's Handbook (human, elf, half-elf, halfling, dwarf and gnome). The reason is precisely that other races would be too powerful if used as PCs. Playing monstrous characters is a 3rd Ed. thing, and one I have grown to dislike. It makes monsters less special, as you know everything about them and you can even be one. Where's the exotic-ness, if it becomes just another ordinary playable race?
That being said, I'm fine with Viconia getting full P&P Drow racial traits. A Drow is what she is, after all.
Isn't it the PCs that are supposed to be exotic, interesting vagabonds that slaughter endless hordes of slobbering conformist orcs/goblins/skeletons/zombies?
If the PCs aren't special, why hasn't something killed the bejeesus out of them yet?
@Edvin Actually, it means you have the blood of an upper or lower planar creature in your lineage: Archon, Deva, Guardinal, Eladrin, etc for Aasimar to Tanar'ri, Baatezu, Abishai, Demodand, etc for Tieflings. There is nothing that says one has to have one of those for a dad/mom. It could be (much) further back than that.
I for example, love to play with mosters main chars. In fact i'm not even alone in this as Vampire: The Masquerade is there to show that many ppl like to roleplay the other side !
In D&D this can be a little hard to do but not impossible, i joke about beholder main chars and mind flayers main chars on the drow request thread, but it's possible to roleplay them IF the players are senior D&D players and understand the traits and eccentricities of each race.
Of course a mind flayer adventure group can't play the same plot as a surface adventure group, that would not make sense, so if later someone mod an adventure especially for monsters characters, ok cos probally that gonna be awersome. If later, after 1 or 2 years, Dias or Oster think that make another parallel DLC, as the black pit, with an adventure for underdark beings, totally disconnected with Bhaalspawn original saga, that would be a DLC worth my money.
@kamulzin And then there are the really funny things that show up in the game. A Bhaalspawn bunny? I can only imagine him deciding to engender *that* child! "You, hare! YOU will bring forth a child of my godhood!"
@LadyRhian funny unseles you give some amount of damage to him, the bastard became a great werewolf in one of my plays and killed my mage main char. Damn i died to a bunny, TO A BUNNY!!!
@Kamulzin The Rabbit of Caerbannog is from the "Monty Python and the Holy Grail" movie, the bunny that bites people's heads off and kills three of the Round Table knights in one attack before it is killed with the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch. A Dire Bunny would be a much larger and nastier than normal bunny. Well, the P&P game had a creature from the original Fiend Folio called the Al'mir'aj, which was essentially a bunny with a unicorn-type horn on its head. (Never play leapfrog with the Al'mir'aj!)
when it comes to a Drow PC, I think it is possible because of the reputation element. If you are playing a reformed Drow, escaping from the tyranny of the underdark etc, and you set out doing good deeds etc like you do in BG1, this is reflected in your reputation which then means you are well known, much like Drizzt (but on a smaller more local scale). You won't be feared because people will recognise you from your good deeds etc.
Comments
Drow 2nd edition stats
Ability Score Adjustments: Drow are extraordinarily dexterous and intelligent. They gain a bonus of +2 to Dexterity and a +1 to Intelligence. However, their personalities can be described as grating at best (although not usually to their faces), and they have the typical elf Constitution. Thus, they have a -2 penalty to Charisma and a -1 to their initial Constitution scores.
Special Advantages: Once per day, all drow can use the spells dancing lights, faerie fire, and darkness. They achieve this through force of will, rather than spell components. A 4thlevel drow can cast levitate, know alignment, and detect magic once per day. In addition, drow priests can cast clairvoyance, detect lie, suggestion, and dispel magic once a day.
At the start, drow are 50% magic resistant, and every level they rise increases the resistance by 2% (to a maximum of 80%). Multiclassed drow use the higher level to determine this bonus. In addition to their high magic resistance, drow also receive a +2 bonus on all saves involving magic. This indudes those devices that emit magical effects or are powered by magic. This magic resistance does not hamper their ability to use magic themselves, however.
The major disadvantage of the drow is their inability to see in bright light. Any light greater than that of torches or continual light spells (including bright sunliit) will blind them and severely affect their ability to fight. Wan l i t , like that of a light spell, does not trigger this disadvantage. Bright light causes the drow to suffer, temporarily, -2 to Dexterity. Attack rolls are made at a -2 penalty, and opponents gain a +2 save against drow spells if they are within the light. When a drow is in darkness and his opponents are in the light, he retains his Dexterity and surprise advantages but still suffers a penalty on attack rolls. If the drow spends more than two weeks away from the subterranean caverns of the Underdark, the special advantages fade at the rate of one power a day. This starts from the most innate spellcasting and works down to the least powerful. Thus, a drow priest would first lose dispel magic, followed by suggestion, clairvoyance, and detect lie. Drow magic resistance is lost at a rate of 10% per day. This process can be halted and the powers regained if the drow returns to the Underdark and spends one day there for each week spent aboveground. Finally, all other elves hate the drow, and reactions to them are with at least a -4 penalty. This modifier is cumulative to any kits the drow player might be using. Only after a particular elf comes to accept a particular drow as a friend, does this penalty disappear.
Additional Experience Cost: 20 % .
So, with this in mind it's clear all drow PCs should have the following adjustments:
+2 Dex, +1 Int, -2 Cha, -1 Con
No spell powers and no magic resistance, as you've spent your life on the surface for years with Gorion
A -2 penalty to dex and -2 to hit whenever your infravision's not in use
A 20% experience penalty
There's really no love for other races. How many NPCs are elf, human or a mix of the two? Compare those numbers to the amount of other races used or encouraged to be used.
A little love for Half-Orcs and Dwarves would be nice.
Incompetent quote XD (i really don't know how to do this):
"Why would anyone throw a fit over Drow being included in the game? Even if they do add content to the game involving Drow, it would not deter you from playing any other character. It would not affect you one bit."
I think is just fallacy, the same goes to why not a beholder, why not a mind flayer, after all you don't need to play with them.
The adventure will be the way it's always been. If NPC reactions could've been changed, why not, but it would be weird to talk to random paladins as a drow and just get a "have a nice day!" without any reaction at all.
+2 Dex, +1 Int, -2 Cha, -1 Con
No spell powers and no magic resistance, as you've spent your life on the surface for years with Gorion
A -2 penalty to dex and -2 to hit whenever your infravision's not in use
A 20% experience penalty
This sound like a good enough solution. If mixed whit insane low rep. outside candlekeep. Possibility to raise the rep in major cities but not in remote villages. Rewritten dialogs to fit an drow leading the party etc. Something like that anyways, would have been pritty cool actually but outside contract etc
Agreed on the -2 Dex and -2 hit penalties. If they've lived so long on the surface they shouldn't have problems with sunlight.
+2 Dex, +1 Int, -2 Cha, -1 Con
No spell powers and no magic resistance, as you've spent your life on the surface for years with Gorion
A 20% experience penalty
Considering Charisma is typically a dump stat, and that 16 con is the most non-fighters need anyways, that about balances right.
In neverwinter nights 2 for what i saw, they have +2 dex/int/cha and -2 con, to balance things in BG if someone want to unnoficialy mod this, a +1 dex/int and -2 con would be better.
Assuming for a moment (indulge me) that the Drow are included as a playable race and are clearly more powerful than the other races, and assuming that the dev team can't alter the original content enough to appropriately compensate for them story-wise, having them as a playable race will affect the game for new players. This is a big deal as far as I'm concerned, as I care about the quality of the game as a whole, not just my specific experience. A new player will often (if not always) pick the race that is clearly the most powerful, which inherently changes the game itself as it affects the way that it's played by all new players.
As far as experienced players that want to be a Drow are concerned, I couldn't care less, you're welcome to. But this desire, if it's unbalanced or doesn't make sense, should be fulfilled by a mod that you can choose to implement, not included as a part of the official product itself.
Just my two cents.
I disagree with -2 Cha.
I agree with low reputation and a minor number of racial traits, if the character is not born in the underdark between the magic radiation of the faerzress (deliver thee in this case the penalty to experience points).
Maybe Viconia would be happy to have the true racial traits of a drow u_u
There is a place for only one Drizzt and only one Viconia on the surface... Well and Qilué Veladorn and Liriel Baenre and Tos'un Armgo... Well, um..., it seems, that there are already legions of drows walking under the sun.
Still, adding it would make a same sense as if they would add, let's say, a blackguard kit. Heh, I mean can you imagine a Blackguard training under the tutelage of a Harper Mage? Oh wait....
Subraces could make a nice addition to the game. But I advice some kind of a "decency" when you are stepping into a 15 years of history. I'm all for new quests with quality story and presentation at least on the level of the famous Tower of Deception mod (so please kick out that Underdark Arena from the game or change it substantially - so far it sounds horrible). I'm also all for adding new races, subraces and classes. But please stop before a completely foreign border. Wild elf, Shield Dwarf etc. are completely ok. Aasimar, tiefling, Yuan-ti pureblood, genasi are on the level of a Half-orc (some of their differences can be covered and they don't enjoy the same level of bad reputation as a duergars or dark elves). Imagination needs a focus to achieve something worth the time...
During character creation you're warrior, priest, ranger... etc... want a kit? Battle for it. Do the right quests and find a tutor, tome, deity, powerfull creature or potion that give you the kit.
This is very popular section because many people realy like drows.
How hard can by add Drow race ? Playing common drow race need some special rules BUT, CHARNAME is not common drow because he was born under sun and live under sun his all live. So now he is nearly normal elf, because sun burn off all his special power.
So now we need only modify first talk ( when we first meet ) with Viconia ( and mayby few more, if she have new content ). We don´t need any " special " talk with others people, because ours CHARNAME wear cape like Viconia ( and Drizzt and all drows on surface
I can´t imagine Baal f**king gods and devils to get more children
btw: All Baal children are from this realm and Aasimars and Tieflings are outrealms beings.
If the PCs aren't special, why hasn't something killed the bejeesus out of them yet?
In D&D this can be a little hard to do but not impossible, i joke about beholder main chars and mind flayers main chars on the drow request thread, but it's possible to roleplay them IF the players are senior D&D players and understand the traits and eccentricities of each race.
Of course a mind flayer adventure group can't play the same plot as a surface adventure group, that would not make sense, so if later someone mod an adventure especially for monsters characters, ok cos probally that gonna be awersome. If later, after 1 or 2 years, Dias or Oster think that make another parallel DLC, as the black pit, with an adventure for underdark beings, totally disconnected with Bhaalspawn original saga, that would be a DLC worth my money.
btw we already have half-orcs