@LadyRhian I just finished his quest two days ago (finishing my BG2 Inquisitor run before the EE), and that's exactly right. And Neutral Good/Chaotic Good seems to suit him. He seems to enjoy his personal freedom a lot, hence the possibility of a more Chaotic bend.
@Kamuizin Aye, I agree. I played the Solaufein mod for a while but it was not what I expected. I get that he's a bit softer than the average drow, but his constant poetry and philosophy and calm brooding didn't strike me as someone who'd been opressed, abused, threatened and tortured for a couple of decades. Didn't mesh with the Vanilla Solaufein personality at all, in my opinion. Good opportunity though. Don't think Overhaul will take it, considering they want to work with the modders and ignoring/redoing one of the classic mods is hardly the way to go.
@Drugar I was thinking that he was a bit more thoughtful and introspective than the Average Drow (if there even *is* such a thing- I'm thinking not, myself). I am guessing he finds the surface world much more conducive to his views than Drow society and being grateful and not dwelling as much on his past. I mean, I don't think you'd want to romance an emo angster who was constantly dwelling on "OMG, my life has been so BAD!" all the time.
@LadyRhian If my past relationship track record is any indication, I probably would. My taste in romantic partners has always been quite horrible, unfortunately.
Regardless, I didn't mind him seizing the day and enjoying the surface but I was kind of surprised that he didn't seem to have any scars from his decades in Ched Nasad, nor hardly any sign of aggression to anyone. I get that he's not an evil guy but to go 100% into the other direction and make him a pacifistic, emotionally balanced poet and songwriter...is a bit much. I would've appreciated a few more moments where he worries about being stabbed in the back by normal, honest folk or being easily provoked by threats or demeaning comments (since that worked very well for Phaere in the Underdark as well).
@Drugar To be honest, Phaere and he did share something of a history... I think most Drow think screwing over your former lovers has an especially delicious taste... Because she seemed to positively RELISH it. Like, "Ooh, and I can take out Solaufein, too? I LIKE this idea..."
@LadyRhian, Phaere suffered the demonweb pit torture, i don't even know how this work, but from what i saw from D&D lore, the demonweb torture pass in the Lolths plane of existence, what means Phaere suffered directly in lolths hands at least. That's suffice to change the behavior of any person, she was probally stripped of any emotion besides lust, anger and ambition.
@Drugar as you i found to much disappoint the disposition of solafein toward the world, a good drow is possible but a pacifist drow has no place in roleplay, no pacifist would survive inside a drow society.
If we remember the trials in Ush Natha, Solafein killed his heart there, and yet he was of good nature, he didn't put himself above dirty his hands when needed, it's a survival issue, and this trace in his behavior simple vanished on the mod.
Any New Solafein mod that comes in the future (or his use as an official joinable NPC if team BG wish) must have at least some points marked in his behavior:
Active - Cos it's printed in his behavior an idea of constant danger, his entire life taught him that hestiation is death.
Resolute - He did many things he's not proud on the past but a good person inside an evil society must learn the significance of a greater good, otherwise his acts would had droven him crazy.
Survivor - He angered an entire house but was competent enough to be valuable making womans in that society unable to direct kill him.
Suspicious - Betrayed by the person he loved most, to be able to trust again a considerable time to heal or striking events to change must be considered.
Radical in the face of injustice - After years witnessing injustices, he has the chance now to change the world, in a place where his moral code is apreciated, in my view any opportunity to do justice would not be missed by him.
This may be a little arrogant of me, but i think that any work with Solafein that observe these points will be on the patch of sucess.
@Kamuizin I think it comes with being Chaotic Evil. Most Drow will sacrifice anything, even old or current lovers, to get ahead. It's the kind of "Screw you, I'm getting mine." that keep the Drow so fractured, which Lolth wants, because to her, this kind of endless competition will make the Drow stronger. So she sets Drow against Drow, sister against sister against brother, House against House, and city against city in endless wars and intrigues so that she can breed a "Stronger" people. Any who fail didn't deserve their position or right to live, and "history", such as it is, is written by the victors, as it is anywhere. The only ones who protest the thing are on the bottom, and they don't count. Vicious, but that's the way Drow society is.
Yes, but this is more lawful evil than chaotic, the "screw you, i getting mine" is even a neutral evil behavior.
Lawful Evil means they respect the order of their society, and that's the rule on underdark drow cities, as disobedience and failure means death there. That's pretty much like a baator behavior. But one thing for sure, we can't define the true behavior of a individual drow, they will act as lawful evil for fear, but only with power over others in hand a drow show his true behavior.
@kamuizin It's only slightly organized chaos. I don't think there are that many laws, and the only important ones are: Worship Lolth and whatever you are doing, don't get caught. The strong rule, the others are kept in line by fear of punishment, slavery and coercion, with a tantalizing promise of power should they be able to take out the person above them in a way that doesn't point directly to them. So they plant hints to shift the blame onto others. That's a really Chaotic and Evil society. Some Drow might have tendencies towards Neutral Evil rather than Chaos, but most of them toady up to those above them (until their plans come to fruition and they can push them off or out of their exalted positions) and abuse those currently beneath them. Lawful Evil would be much more regimented and a more Neutral Evil would find Drow being more cooperative with each other and less interpersonally competitive (I feel, anyhow). Given that their society is constantly in flux and working against everyone else, to me that's the definition of chaos. No one's position is secure, it could be swept away at any moment. Look at Phaere. She's not only going to kill her ex-lover, she's also going to kill her mother at the same time. And nobody really cares when she and her mother are dead. Presumably, there will be some kind of fight amongst the heirs to the house, a free-for-all of backstabbing and murder (to be pinned on suitably appropriate targets- remember, don't get caught!) and if the house loses its place, wherever it is on the ladder in Ust Natha, other houses will be fighting to take its place. I can forsee even more Chaos in the future there. But this is what Lolth wants. Her only commandment (and it's not even a commandment as a preference) is to be strong and win by any and all means possible, just have plausible deniability. (Because if you are too open in your killing, you are a threat and will be taken out by numerous others to preserve themselves- but none of them will work together to take you out, unless one is planning to place the blame on their co-conspirator for the entire thing.)
@LadyRhian I just finished his quest two days ago (finishing my BG2 Inquisitor run before the EE), and that's exactly right. And Neutral Good/Chaotic Good seems to suit him. He seems to enjoy his personal freedom a lot, hence the possibility of a more Chaotic bend.
@Kamuizin Aye, I agree. I played the Solaufein mod for a while but it was not what I expected. I get that he's a bit softer than the average drow, but his constant poetry and philosophy and calm brooding didn't strike me as someone who'd been opressed, abused, threatened and tortured for a couple of decades. Didn't mesh with the Vanilla Solaufein personality at all, in my opinion. Good opportunity though. Don't think Overhaul will take it, considering they want to work with the modders and ignoring/redoing one of the classic mods is hardly the way to go.
The Solaufein mod was pure fanservice. One problem is also that modders often forget to take notice of the fact that BG characters aren't absolutely defined by their alignment; it's more of a general idea of how they behave in the big picture. Being "lawful good" or "chaotic evil" does not mean "completely bland and totally predictable".
Drows are a hated race who glorifies pain and vice. Imagine what it is to be an empathic being among them... and imagine what it is to try to do good in the surface and still be hated just for what you are.
In the end, being a drow is like coming from the ghetto. You come from hell and people will hate you no matter what. It's a very complex feeling, and a very strange way of being. Good drows are in my opinion extremely hard to grasp, and most writers fail at picturing the contradictions the lie among the internal pain and emptiness they must suffer.
Players fail to understand this, too. All they see is a sexy girl in a shiny bikiny armor.
Viconia does provide something else, although romances in general are build as pleasure-features. However, note that I said that it shouldn't be pure pleasure, as it remains an important component of the game. I just don't think there's any interest in focusing on it, like the Solaufein mod does.
For example, Khalid's death was an experience, a suprise. Something that I like to experience in games. However, fanboys, unhappy with the idea of having someone tell them "no" and unhappy with a story that doesn't go the exact way they wanted it, would like to reverse his death, which is in my opinion ridiculous.
@Kukaracha I did a game where I never resurrected any of my fallen companions. That's another way to have that kind of experience. (Obviously, don't reload, either.) I had the strangest party at the end, but that was a strange, if interesting experience.
i could only agree to this if the social interactions were significantly changed all the way till SoA at least,certain NPC's would simply refuse to join you( like Aerie and Keldorn),the starting reputation would be extremely low regardless of aligment,you would get constant comments of distrust from common folk and merchants,you would get harassed by authories and fanatics and you would not have acces to MANY side quests,and i mean many. otherwise you;re not a drow,you're an intelligent elf who spent too much time in solarium...
I also can't see why the side quests would not be available, you can always go and say : " Look dude, i'm a friend of Drizzt, now you don't wanna make Drizzt mad right? Right? :P"
@bill_zagoudis Unless you're actually evil I don't see why Aerie and Keldorn would refuse to join you.
well they both have a great love for the drow, Aerie's people were butchered by the drow and that's her only memory of the drow,and Keldron apart from the fact that he's prejudiced against all the underdark races,views the drow as the heathen that it's his duty to destroy, that's what i recall from their conversations with Viconia at least.
I also can't see why the side quests would not be available, you can always go and say : " Look dude, i'm a friend of Drizzt, now you don't wanna make Drizzt mad right? Right? :P"
well the only knowledge a commoner has of the drow is how they kill surfacers on sight. you don't have a sticker in your forehead that says: 'hey i'm an orphan who grew on the surface',and in many situations you would not have the chance to talk at all.
if you want realism that's it,if you don't care about actually being a drow and just want the word dark somewhere in your characters tablet that's another thing.
as others said even Viconia's pressence in the group is not mentioned often enough,though she's just a follower.
Unless of course your character is hooded when in sight of anyone he can't trust,but that again is a whole new style of playing the game,that would make the game: drow mode/standart(non-drow mode).
@Tanthalas, maybe cos keldorn kill (or try to kill) viconia if both stay on the party for too much time in BG2? And just to say, she didn't did any misdeed that he's aware of during BG1 or on the time betwen BG1/2 that she was alone. He just want to kill her cos she's a drow.
With aerie, like you, i don't see any problem also. She join the party after get helped by main char, so he could be a mustard jelly main char and she would join anyway on my view.
@bill_zagoudis If Drizzt and Jarlaxle aren't constantly attacked on site in the surface, there's no reason for us to assume that a Drow NPC would also suffer the same fate.
@kamuizin But at least in that case Viconia is actually evil. If your Drow main character is Good aligned I don't see why Keldorn would kill them on site.
you know what? even if the drow are added to the game,a whole new compaign of whining will start because the drow do not feel like actual drow... the idea is simply doomed,it's like a mod that adds races,no matter how good it's done it will never have the right feel.
I could ask to play as a Cambion too, what would be the point of the devs implementing it,if it's like playing an op human? hey i'm a neutral good Cambion don't shoot me i'm your friend! look my party consists of a paladin, two rangers,and a priest of Lathander.
@Edvin Viconia is Neutral Evil in the original game. She's sort of the opposite of Solaufein, who is Neutral Good (and only literally, in alignment terms).
The banters between Keldorn and viconia don't refer to her as evil in any moment @Tanthalas, he's pretty focused in terms as "evil race" if i'm not wrong, he make alike comments about "evil race" when the player is kidnaped on Saemon ship by sahuagins and main char speak with the Sahuagin mad king there. But this is not a major problem for drow existance (as we can always kill keldorn).
Comments
I just finished his quest two days ago (finishing my BG2 Inquisitor run before the EE), and that's exactly right. And Neutral Good/Chaotic Good seems to suit him. He seems to enjoy his personal freedom a lot, hence the possibility of a more Chaotic bend.
@Kamuizin
Aye, I agree. I played the Solaufein mod for a while but it was not what I expected. I get that he's a bit softer than the average drow, but his constant poetry and philosophy and calm brooding didn't strike me as someone who'd been opressed, abused, threatened and tortured for a couple of decades. Didn't mesh with the Vanilla Solaufein personality at all, in my opinion.
Good opportunity though. Don't think Overhaul will take it, considering they want to work with the modders and ignoring/redoing one of the classic mods is hardly the way to go.
If my past relationship track record is any indication, I probably would. My taste in romantic partners has always been quite horrible, unfortunately.
Regardless, I didn't mind him seizing the day and enjoying the surface but I was kind of surprised that he didn't seem to have any scars from his decades in Ched Nasad, nor hardly any sign of aggression to anyone. I get that he's not an evil guy but to go 100% into the other direction and make him a pacifistic, emotionally balanced poet and songwriter...is a bit much.
I would've appreciated a few more moments where he worries about being stabbed in the back by normal, honest folk or being easily provoked by threats or demeaning comments (since that worked very well for Phaere in the Underdark as well).
She was quite the stupid meaniehead, yes.
@Drugar as you i found to much disappoint the disposition of solafein toward the world, a good drow is possible but a pacifist drow has no place in roleplay, no pacifist would survive inside a drow society.
If we remember the trials in Ush Natha, Solafein killed his heart there, and yet he was of good nature, he didn't put himself above dirty his hands when needed, it's a survival issue, and this trace in his behavior simple vanished on the mod.
Any New Solafein mod that comes in the future (or his use as an official joinable NPC if team BG wish) must have at least some points marked in his behavior:
Active - Cos it's printed in his behavior an idea of constant danger, his entire life taught him that hestiation is death.
Resolute - He did many things he's not proud on the past but a good person inside an evil society must learn the significance of a greater good, otherwise his acts would had droven him crazy.
Survivor - He angered an entire house but was competent enough to be valuable making womans in that society unable to direct kill him.
Suspicious - Betrayed by the person he loved most, to be able to trust again a considerable time to heal or striking events to change must be considered.
Radical in the face of injustice - After years witnessing injustices, he has the chance now to change the world, in a place where his moral code is apreciated, in my view any opportunity to do justice would not be missed by him.
This may be a little arrogant of me, but i think that any work with Solafein that observe these points will be on the patch of sucess.
Read previous 9 pages.
Lawful Evil means they respect the order of their society, and that's the rule on underdark drow cities, as disobedience and failure means death there. That's pretty much like a baator behavior. But one thing for sure, we can't define the true behavior of a individual drow, they will act as lawful evil for fear, but only with power over others in hand a drow show his true behavior.
One problem is also that modders often forget to take notice of the fact that BG characters aren't absolutely defined by their alignment; it's more of a general idea of how they behave in the big picture. Being "lawful good" or "chaotic evil" does not mean "completely bland and totally predictable".
Drows are a hated race who glorifies pain and vice. Imagine what it is to be an empathic being among them... and imagine what it is to try to do good in the surface and still be hated just for what you are.
In the end, being a drow is like coming from the ghetto. You come from hell and people will hate you no matter what. It's a very complex feeling, and a very strange way of being. Good drows are in my opinion extremely hard to grasp, and most writers fail at picturing the contradictions the lie among the internal pain and emptiness they must suffer.
Players fail to understand this, too. All they see is a sexy girl in a shiny bikiny armor.
However, note that I said that it shouldn't be pure pleasure, as it remains an important component of the game. I just don't think there's any interest in focusing on it, like the Solaufein mod does.
For example, Khalid's death was an experience, a suprise. Something that I like to experience in games. However, fanboys, unhappy with the idea of having someone tell them "no" and unhappy with a story that doesn't go the exact way they wanted it, would like to reverse his death, which is in my opinion ridiculous.
ps: is it worth the trouble?
Unless you're actually evil I don't see why Aerie and Keldorn would refuse to join you.
well the only knowledge a commoner has of the drow is how they kill surfacers on sight. you don't have a sticker in your forehead that says: 'hey i'm an orphan who grew on the surface',and in many situations you would not have the chance to talk at all.
if you want realism that's it,if you don't care about actually being a drow and just want the word dark somewhere in your characters tablet that's another thing.
as others said even Viconia's pressence in the group is not mentioned often enough,though she's just a follower.
Unless of course your character is hooded when in sight of anyone he can't trust,but that again is a whole new style of playing the game,that would make the game: drow mode/standart(non-drow mode).
With aerie, like you, i don't see any problem also. She join the party after get helped by main char, so he could be a mustard jelly main char and she would join anyway on my view.
If Drizzt and Jarlaxle aren't constantly attacked on site in the surface, there's no reason for us to assume that a Drow NPC would also suffer the same fate.
@kamuizin
But at least in that case Viconia is actually evil. If your Drow main character is Good aligned I don't see why Keldorn would kill them on site.
I could ask to play as a Cambion too, what would be the point of the devs implementing it,if it's like playing an op human? hey i'm a neutral good Cambion don't shoot me i'm your friend! look my party consists of a paladin, two rangers,and a priest of Lathander.
She is only misunderstand.