Many people will see 18-capped rep as an advantage as it means you don't have to manage it to keep mixed parties going. It would have to be much lower to be seen as a disadvantage. Maybe as low as 6/7 so that if you do one wrong thing the authorities are after you. We've all seen how they treat Viconia.
Heck, I just want 18 REP max with any drow in party. Keeps me from being a murderer to keep Viconia from bailing (I actually don't bother; Branwen does the part just fine and she is 'proud be be amongst such fine warriors')...
@Dazzu If you don´t like Drow, start own topic " Do not add Drow Race " and stop posting here.
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I'm sorry and I don't mean to be rude but this is a terrible attitude to have. Firstly we don't need more topics about drow and we definitely don't need a topic requesting the devs not add something that may or may not be implemented. Positive and negative view points are essential in the discussion of a potential feature request so lets not have a go at someone simply stating their opinion on this topic please.
On topic though, I don't think they need a charisma penalty but a severe reputation penalty would make a lot of sense.
Just to remember the new ones in this thread, the main issue about incompatibility of drow race as a main character, resides in the events of Baldur's Gate 2, when the party leave underdark in the middle of an legion of war elvens battling the drows.
If Viconia is in the party, they threat her to death, and even if the main char vote for her, you have not only to agree to perform an service to the elvens but they bind viconia into a geas to make sure of her commitment with the main char.
If the main char is a drow... to whom will be the main char binded by a geas? They want to kill viconia on sight just to remember.
that MR ability of drow makes the whole race unbalanced as player... but i must say that if a drow comes to the surface they will lose their MR in 2nd edition... anyhow i'm against drow as playable race... but i'm for Viconia to get ful drow benefits...
I If any elf sub race i would want to see is those that haven't fly ability or MR ability...
that is Yes to : Sun elves, wood elves and moon elves (moon elves are the normal elf) No to : avarel, Drow and aquatic elves
Maybe even 3, Solafein was clearly an intended option of joinable NPC that wasn't implemented on the back days, what can change in BG2 EE i think. If done we can have half of a party made of drows... i really don't think the game need anymore of them.
Besides, by growing outside underdark, most of the racial abilities (faerie fire, globe of darkness, magic resistance, levitation) would be lost to that character.
What i would like to do that would feel right would be a change on innate abilities of Baeloth and Viconia, i think both should receive blindness spell (to simulate globe of darkness) and glitterdust (to simulate faerie fire) as innate abilities.
I say no to including Drow as a playable subrace. What people need to remember is that the downsides to playing a Dark Elf is the fact than many surface races are extremely racist towards them - often attacking on site. Drizzt earned his right to be on the surface over many years of good deeds - he has also been attacked on site on the odd occasion also. Viconia was shunned for many years herself and continues to be hated whilst in your party. The only reason many other party members do not attack her is due to CHARNAME. This is also the reason other NPC's do not attack her.. most of the time.
That is the real penalty to playing a Drow and unfortunately it would be impossible to implement in Baldur's Gate without rewriting pretty much ALL of the dialogue. It would be an incredible amount of work for one sub-race. If they didn't do this, it would take too much away from the incredible RP elements within this game and a Drow would be an extremely over-powered individual for CHARNAME to be.
Due to the power of the race itself and their popularity, it is evident that if they are included - with no obvious downsides - people would have little reason to play any of the other races again.
I think it could be something addressed in a future Forgotten Realms game. Something more lore-friendly that revolves primarily around the Underdark.
Sorry if this has been mentioned already in an above post - 12 pages is a lot to read!
@EntropyXII , I find that the only way to make it even worth their time by a stretch, would be to have a different Underdark subrace added for each Race. This is more of something I would think a modder with tons of time on his hands would do.
I played through both BG1 and BG2 as a "Drow" by changing the model to a dark elf model (Drizzt in BG1). I played as a normal elf and just gave myself 50% MR like Viconia has.
It wasn't really a big deal for me that everyone didn't attack me... I got to reputation 20 pretty quickly and left a bunch of dead assassins in my wake. The other option would be that your character had an illusion spell or magic item that kept their true identity hidden, similar to the mask that Drizzt got in one of the books.
It would be nice if there were race-specific dialogue sequences every once in a while but not just for Drow... all races should be included.
The thing that pissed me off the most was in the Underdark where the Drow were constantly hounding me for not being a Drow, not knowing anything about the Drow... when I was in fact a Drow. That whole section really broke immersion for me, since there were no dialogue options that allowed me to blend in.
Obviously changing the existing dialogue is never going to happen but maybe if they make Baldur's Gate 3 they can design it from the ground up with racial support including Drow, maybe even having a handful of renegade Drow being part of the main storyline.
*Sigh*, so many people complain how much OP Drow are... Why this same people doesn´t blame dual class too ? For example Kensai-mage, Kensai-thief or Assasin-cleric are much more OP then Drow.
Why are drow so popular? I never really understood the reasons. Like, actually genuinely, why are they so popular? I can't think of any logical reason.
Elvens are popular in general, and then come someone and make the Drow, the elvens bad boys. They're the vegeta side of the elvens (for anyone fan of DBZ will understand).
@Edvin ...because they are over-powered. It's that simple. Magic resistance, innate spell abilities and so on. Not to mention there is practically very little role-play reason in why CHARNAME would ever manage to survive as a Dark Elf.
Just imagine, right out of Candlekeep - CHARNAME meets up with Kollsed: "Hi there traveler, I heard noises in the ni......DROW DIE DROW!" .... CHARNAME is then forced to kill Kollsed (rep hit) before continuing his walk to find Monteron: "My companion be havin' a word wit yer b.....what?! a DROW!? Xzar use Larloch's minor drain!"
Xzar: "Yes Monty.. I have become death... DESTROYER OF WORLDS! -casts spells-"
Now either CHARNAME dies, or his overpowered magic resistance saves him. If he survives he continues to find Binkos the messenger who saw the whole thing. All Binkos saw was a Dark Elf killing a human and a halfling. He quickly runs away thinking it was a Drow Surface raid (-6 to rep).
CHARNAME continues on to the friendly arm inn... or does he? The Flaming Fist shows up. End game.
My point is, is that there is no way they could ever implement a Dark Elf as a player character without losing the integrity of the game. Isn't it enough to just be an overpowered Bhaalspawn? I find that special and unique enough for me. Being a Drow at the same time would just detract from the story.
@EntropyXII Forgotten Realms is evolving world. BG1 starting in 1368 DR BG1, this times are't so bad for Drow. Actually thousands ( well, at least hundreds ) "good" Drow live on surface now ( Eilistraee's followers ). People still don't like Drow but they don't kill them on sight.
Eilistraee dies in 1379 DR but that doesn't matter for good drows as Corellon Larethian (Her father and the main Seldarine) yet promove the dead drows that worship her to Arvandor.
@Edvin Actually that is not correct at all. The followers of Eilistraee are pretty much limited to small temples - and those themselves are still feared and often hated (only hundreds, certainly not thousands). These temples are very far away from the Sword Coast (usually in the Dalelands region). Racial issues still run strong through the majority of surface dwellers. Many fear Drow surface raids and would still attack and kill a Drow on site. Many surface dwellers won't have a clue who Eilistraee is - especially on the Sword Coast.
...but if you want to bring up the fact that the Forgotten Realms is an ever changing world, then did you know that Eilistraee is now dead? After 1374 DR, when Eilistraee died she also managed to alter those dark elves physiology who once followed her. They now no longer look like Drow (they now have brown skin) and no longer have the same physical attributes as Drow do. They are now like normal elves, but with brown skin instead of ebony.
Either way, this does not matter because Baldur's Gate is set in a time where followers of Eilistraee are very rare on the surface and are still distrusted and feared. The people of the Sword Coast will not easily change their views on the millions of Drow who constantly partake in raids to the surface - slaughtering children and destroying towns - simply because of Drizzt Do'Urden and a few Eilistraee temples a thousand miles away from the Sword Coast.
Why are drow so popular? I never really understood the reasons. Like, actually genuinely, why are they so popular? I can't think of any logical reason.
Not exactly true... Gods in FR world can't die easily. Even Myrkul and Bhaal are still partially alive. Only completely forgotten gods can really die. Faith is strongest power...
@Edvin Bhaal and Myrkul are barely alive, and most of Eilistraee's followers have moved on to Corellon. I get it mate, you're a huge fan of Drow, and personally I am very much all for an Underdark ADnD game - but for Baldur's Gate, it simply is not plausible. Eilistraee or not, Dark Elves simply are not accepted on the surface. They will be persecuted, feared and hunted unless they spend 70-80 years or so improving their reputation on the surface. Maybe this will change by 1500 DR but certainly not yet, and certainly not while there is 98% evil Drow compared to 2% good Drow (I made up that statistic but its probably about right).
Remember that Drizzt left the Underdark an extremely experienced individual who was able to defend himself and hide from surface dwellers until people had heard of his good deeds. CHARNAME is a level 1, inexperienced character (without cheats) and the truth is without Gorion to protect him/her, he would have been kicked out of Candlekeep at a much earlier age. Even human, elf, half-elf, dwarven or halfling CHARNAMES were not regarded very highly by the bosses of Candlekeep.
Icewind Dale 2 has a (badly done) Drow character you can play with a couple of Drow specific lines at the beginning to create a bit of immersion - not much admittedly, but some none-the-less.
@EntropyXII Neverwinter Night 2 starting in 1374 DR ( only six years later ) and Drow are fine. You can play as Drow and you will have 3 - 4 special dialog options during game. It is sad, but for FR games is impossible play pure RP.
Dwarfs hate Elves and Elves Dwarfs, Halflings hate everyone who look like orks, Humans hate Drow, Living hate undeads, Dragons and Drow despise ... everyone ? ( and many more examples )
Only doppelgangers can be loved by all races ( can we play as doppelganger please ? )
You must compare Drow with another new contents in BG:EE. All new NPC are MUCH richer on dialogs then anyone from BG1. Why this new race also can´t be little richer on dialogs then others races ?
BTW I see your point and i agree with you. Is many reasons why not implement Drow.
@Edvin I didn't enjoy Neverwinter Nights 2 that much. It was possible to be a Drow, you're right. Also a Tiefling and an Aasimar. Regardless of their inclusion in the NWN series, Drow are still hated in the FR world. This is why WotC decided that NWN2 would not be canon. The decision to include Drow and other 'super' races was most likely to appeal to the 'greater' audience. Drow, Tieflings and Aasimar sell computer games apparently.
The funny thing was I don't believe I ever managed to play one of the standard races in the game. I was constantly a Tiefling. Like yourself and Drow, I am a massive Tiefling fan. These 'super' races give people little reason to follow one of the normal races - which is unfortunate.
Like I have said earlier - what would be good is a Baldur's Gate spin-off set solely in the Underdark.
You could play a selection of all the deep races in replacement of the surface races.
Snirfneblin (? ) Grey Dwarf, Dark Elf and so on! Imagine adventuring the Underdark just like the surface in BG? Now that would be pretty good, and also make sense lore wise. Hint-hint-nudge-nudge .... BG3 ....
@Edvin NWN and HotU were great games. Thoroughly enjoyed playing that game. Unfortunately my laptop is a big stinking pile of goblin pie and thus is not capable of playing it anymore
Comments
Drizzt reputation is VERY hight and he is Drow...
But i see your point.
What about +25-40 % items price for drow ?
This is good disadvantage and everyone will hate it
On topic though, I don't think they need a charisma penalty but a severe reputation penalty would make a lot of sense.
If Viconia is in the party, they threat her to death, and even if the main char vote for her, you have not only to agree to perform an service to the elvens but they bind viconia into a geas to make sure of her commitment with the main char.
If the main char is a drow... to whom will be the main char binded by a geas? They want to kill viconia on sight just to remember.
I If any elf sub race i would want to see is those that haven't fly ability or MR ability...
that is
Yes to : Sun elves, wood elves and moon elves (moon elves are the normal elf)
No to : avarel, Drow and aquatic elves
How big problem can be another one ?
Besides, by growing outside underdark, most of the racial abilities (faerie fire, globe of darkness, magic resistance, levitation) would be lost to that character.
What i would like to do that would feel right would be a change on innate abilities of Baeloth and Viconia, i think both should receive blindness spell (to simulate globe of darkness) and glitterdust (to simulate faerie fire) as innate abilities.
More Drows = More fun
Consider one +1 and one -1, and máybe go one step out of that boundary.
That is the real penalty to playing a Drow and unfortunately it would be impossible to implement in Baldur's Gate without rewriting pretty much ALL of the dialogue. It would be an incredible amount of work for one sub-race. If they didn't do this, it would take too much away from the incredible RP elements within this game and a Drow would be an extremely over-powered individual for CHARNAME to be.
Due to the power of the race itself and their popularity, it is evident that if they are included - with no obvious downsides - people would have little reason to play any of the other races again.
I think it could be something addressed in a future Forgotten Realms game. Something more lore-friendly that revolves primarily around the Underdark.
Sorry if this has been mentioned already in an above post - 12 pages is a lot to read!
It wasn't really a big deal for me that everyone didn't attack me... I got to reputation 20 pretty quickly and left a bunch of dead assassins in my wake. The other option would be that your character had an illusion spell or magic item that kept their true identity hidden, similar to the mask that Drizzt got in one of the books.
It would be nice if there were race-specific dialogue sequences every once in a while but not just for Drow... all races should be included.
The thing that pissed me off the most was in the Underdark where the Drow were constantly hounding me for not being a Drow, not knowing anything about the Drow... when I was in fact a Drow. That whole section really broke immersion for me, since there were no dialogue options that allowed me to blend in.
Obviously changing the existing dialogue is never going to happen but maybe if they make Baldur's Gate 3 they can design it from the ground up with racial support including Drow, maybe even having a handful of renegade Drow being part of the main storyline.
Why this same people doesn´t blame dual class too ?
For example Kensai-mage, Kensai-thief or Assasin-cleric are much more OP then Drow.
Just imagine, right out of Candlekeep - CHARNAME meets up with Kollsed: "Hi there traveler, I heard noises in the ni......DROW DIE DROW!" .... CHARNAME is then forced to kill Kollsed (rep hit) before continuing his walk to find Monteron: "My companion be havin' a word wit yer b.....what?! a DROW!? Xzar use Larloch's minor drain!"
Xzar: "Yes Monty.. I have become death... DESTROYER OF WORLDS! -casts spells-"
Now either CHARNAME dies, or his overpowered magic resistance saves him. If he survives he continues to find Binkos the messenger who saw the whole thing. All Binkos saw was a Dark Elf killing a human and a halfling. He quickly runs away thinking it was a Drow Surface raid (-6 to rep).
CHARNAME continues on to the friendly arm inn... or does he? The Flaming Fist shows up. End game.
My point is, is that there is no way they could ever implement a Dark Elf as a player character without losing the integrity of the game. Isn't it enough to just be an overpowered Bhaalspawn? I find that special and unique enough for me. Being a Drow at the same time would just detract from the story.
Forgotten Realms is evolving world.
BG1 starting in 1368 DR BG1, this times are't so bad for Drow.
Actually thousands ( well, at least hundreds ) "good" Drow live on surface now ( Eilistraee's followers ).
People still don't like Drow but they don't kill them on sight.
...but if you want to bring up the fact that the Forgotten Realms is an ever changing world, then did you know that Eilistraee is now dead? After 1374 DR, when Eilistraee died she also managed to alter those dark elves physiology who once followed her. They now no longer look like Drow (they now have brown skin) and no longer have the same physical attributes as Drow do. They are now like normal elves, but with brown skin instead of ebony.
Either way, this does not matter because Baldur's Gate is set in a time where followers of Eilistraee are very rare on the surface and are still distrusted and feared. The people of the Sword Coast will not easily change their views on the millions of Drow who constantly partake in raids to the surface - slaughtering children and destroying towns - simply because of Drizzt Do'Urden and a few Eilistraee temples a thousand miles away from the Sword Coast.
Gods in FR world can't die easily.
Even Myrkul and Bhaal are still partially alive.
Only completely forgotten gods can really die.
Faith is strongest power...
I get it mate, you're a huge fan of Drow, and personally I am very much all for an Underdark ADnD game - but for Baldur's Gate, it simply is not plausible. Eilistraee or not, Dark Elves simply are not accepted on the surface. They will be persecuted, feared and hunted unless they spend 70-80 years or so improving their reputation on the surface. Maybe this will change by 1500 DR but certainly not yet, and certainly not while there is 98% evil Drow compared to 2% good Drow (I made up that statistic but its probably about right).
Remember that Drizzt left the Underdark an extremely experienced individual who was able to defend himself and hide from surface dwellers until people had heard of his good deeds. CHARNAME is a level 1, inexperienced character (without cheats) and the truth is without Gorion to protect him/her, he would have been kicked out of Candlekeep at a much earlier age. Even human, elf, half-elf, dwarven or halfling CHARNAMES were not regarded very highly by the bosses of Candlekeep.
Icewind Dale 2 has a (badly done) Drow character you can play with a couple of Drow specific lines at the beginning to create a bit of immersion - not much admittedly, but some none-the-less.
Neverwinter Night 2 starting in 1374 DR ( only six years later ) and Drow are fine.
You can play as Drow and you will have 3 - 4 special dialog options during game.
It is sad, but for FR games is impossible play pure RP.
Dwarfs hate Elves and Elves Dwarfs, Halflings hate everyone who look like orks, Humans hate Drow, Living hate undeads, Dragons and Drow despise ... everyone ?
Only doppelgangers can be loved by all races
You must compare Drow with another new contents in BG:EE.
All new NPC are MUCH richer on dialogs then anyone from BG1.
Why this new race also can´t be little richer on dialogs then others races ?
BTW
I see your point and i agree with you.
Is many reasons why not implement Drow.
but
Is much more reasons why implement them.
The funny thing was I don't believe I ever managed to play one of the standard races in the game. I was constantly a Tiefling. Like yourself and Drow, I am a massive Tiefling fan. These 'super' races give people little reason to follow one of the normal races - which is unfortunate.
Like I have said earlier - what would be good is a Baldur's Gate spin-off set solely in the Underdark.
You could play a selection of all the deep races in replacement of the surface races.
Snirfneblin (? ) Grey Dwarf, Dark Elf and so on! Imagine adventuring the Underdark just like the surface in BG? Now that would be pretty good, and also make sense lore wise. Hint-hint-nudge-nudge .... BG3 ....
Did you play " Neverwinter nights - Hordes of the underdark " ? ;D