I seem to recall that there was a Duergar that managed to fool people into thinking he wasn't a Duergar in BG2. There was no special reason given. In fact the I think from the text in the game you could infer that only another Dwarf would (maybe) be able to tell what he really was.
Drow I'm not sure could be so easily hidden, but I'm not sure why it's such a big deal. I mean you could just give a Drow PC a -2 rep than they normally would start out with and headcannon that they are only left alone because they can handle themselves well enough and/or are protected by their companions who themselves can also handle themselves.
In Baldur's Gate, you are in the sword coast and they are know to be slaver and dangerous.They are usually kill on sight.
In BG:EE you can have 2 drow in party a nobody care about that. What can change one more ?
Sometimes people simply don't know what they want, many people that support this idea didn't even played baldur's gate 2 yet. Drow race in Baldur's Gate 2 is storybreaking, would disrupt the whole progression of chapter 5 and sequences, would need thousands of new lines to be added without become something stupid and certainly some changes in the original content would be needed for this race work in Baldur's Gate 2.
I seem to recall that there was a Duergar that managed to fool people into thinking he wasn't a Duergar in BG2. There was no special reason given. In fact the I think from the text in the game you could infer that only another Dwarf would (maybe) be able to tell what he really was.
Drow I'm not sure could be so easily hidden, but I'm not sure why it's such a big deal. I mean you could just give a Drow PC a -2 rep than they normally would start out with and headcannon that they are only left alone because they can handle themselves well enough and/or are protected by their companions who themselves can also handle themselves.
spoilerYou meant Ungar Hilldark, the illithium (metal) source for the art project of sir sales, the famous artist hosted in the Jysseve state on the government district. The guy can't even leave the slums at risk of being arrested or killed in sight cos one of his previous employees, an hill dwarven psycopath named Neb (killed childrens in Baldur's Gate 2 and depend of the plotline you followed, helped your character in escape prision after Angelo arrest you. Well the quest speak for itself about underdark races more or less...
Drow it's a big issue cos without a lot of extra dialogues and change in the original content, you will always start chapter 6... dead, simple as that !
(Anybody know if they comment on Viconia, by the way?) So you would have to change original content to make that happen, which contracts do not allow. And this is only one issue. Almost every encounter (every SINGLE talk) in the game would have to been altered to acknowledge your race as a drow.
NOBODY ( except new characters and elves in chapter 6 ) in whole BG1 and BG2 NEVER comment Viconia or Baeloth race. Also NOBODY ever comment your drow race in Icewind Dale and in Icewind Dale 2 is only few sentences about that ( +/- 20 ) and mainly on start. In Neverwinter Nights 2 is barely 10 sentences about that. So, nearly anyone care about drow and BG2 need "lot of extra dialogues and change in the original content" ? Wake up guys !
According Contractual limitations are quote: " Small scale text only changes are possible "
We need change/add only few sentences:
1) BG1 - Recruiting Viconia ( Something like: " Hello brother/sister " ) 2) BG2 - Few words in Solafein talks ( " I am not Drow i am CHARNAME_RACE [Drow] from survace. " ) 3) BG2 - Elves in chapter 6 simply curse you and make you swear ( same way like they did it to Viconia ) 4) BG2 - Few words in Viconia romance
That is all... How hard it can be ? 30-60 min work ?
P.S. You cant complain on RP in games where nearly no one act like in RP. ( We shouldn't be able even sleep in inns with Viconia in party )
@Nefarius Indeed, people in FR games doesn't care about CHARNAME race. It's too late on RP changes ( if you dont want chage WHOLE game ). Romance is only thing where is race important.
I see no good reasons why Drow should not be implemented.
Even Adalon doesn't care about drow in your party and that is something.
She want her eggs back, you could be a balor for all her care, if you compromise in rescuing her eggs for some kind of reward she would still work with you no matter how evil you are (i killed the gnome for the light gem many times and she aknowledge the murder of the gnome in her banters).
The game don't do half of the hardship the party should endure for travel with viconia, however a fault in the scripts by the devs shouldn't become an excuse for more mistakes.
About chapter 6, viconia no matter what ONLY leave the elf camp with an GEAS spell cast on her under penality of death if her betray the elvens or the main char, and there's no argue about this geas, just to state.
The only video of leaving underdark i found, the voice of the guy recording this video is annoying so maybe some ppl would like to turn of the sounds and just read the banters.
In the end, no matter the lack of content to react with an drow in the players party, what happen in chapter 6 is storybreaking suffice to justify not have drow as a pickable race.
I will propose the following, convince the devs in make all the changes needed to make drow race coherent in Baldur's Gate 2 and i will support their addition 100%. But until then i stand by my position of be against the issue.
She want her eggs back, you could be a balor for all her care, if you compromise in rescuing her eggs for some kind of reward she would still work with you no matter how evil you are (i killed the gnome for the light gem many times and she aknowledge the murder of the gnome in her banters).
And Elves want their city back, they will ally even with demons or rogue Drow to save their city and stop Irenicus, nothing is more important. You want kill Irenicus, they want kill Irenicus. "" They will still work with you no matter how evil you are. ""
Dialogs with Elves in chapter 6 doesnt need big changes and they can cast two GEAS spell instead one. This isnt THAT hard to make.
She want her eggs back, you could be a balor for all her care, if you compromise in rescuing her eggs for some kind of reward she would still work with you no matter how evil you are (i killed the gnome for the light gem many times and she aknowledge the murder of the gnome in her banters).
And Elves want their city back, they will ally even with demons or rogue Drow to save their city and stop Irenicus, nothing is more important. You want kill Irenicus, they want kill Irenicus. "" They will still work with you no matter how evil you are. ""
Dialogs with Elves in chapter 6 doesnt need big changes and they can cast two GEAS spell instead one. This isnt THAT hard to make.
They want their city back from... drows. And they didn't followed your progress as Adalon did. Still even wanting their city back they still want to kill viconia (above video) but instead place on her a geas linking her to main char so she doesn't betray main char. Then i ask if main char is a drow, to whom would he be linked by a geas to assure no betrayal? As i said, no problem with drows IF the needed changes are done to make the use of this race coherent.
That don't work also, ppl that want drow race want to be recognized as drow, they want some points in the game to make an NPC or other (non joinable) to run screaming at the sight of a drow and other easter eggs from playing a drow. They surely want drizzt to aknowledge the player by what he is and react proper also. I understand that, in the end, deep in me i would like all that too.
But it's story breaking, so if that's to be done i just want it done right or not done at all.
An fast implement i would like atm isn't new race, new class, new kit, but an work in the structure of the engine that allows mods to more easly create completly new races, classes and kits. Today we can't make a new race for the lack of slots to put it, same with classes, an work to soft these problems for mods would be a huge help.
If we could mod the drow race well in the game, many changes would be able to be done as mods aren't limited by the contractual clauses Beamdog is, with an nice modder team this could work wonders.
Kits are pretty easy to create, but a new class would take...a lot more work for modders.
I agree, though, that a better structure for races to allow for modders to create their own would be nice. It just might not happen for a while (if ever).
So give the PC an amulet of disguise or something, and call it a day. There's so many good reasons to have subraces and very little good reasons not to.
It would take some work... but so does rewriting the GUI or fixing bugs. Needing work is a false issue that people against subraces are bringing into the discussion to try to change the argument.
If @Dee and friends say that it's too much work to add, then maybe that's a legitimate response. But for you guys who aren't part of the team to say "too much work" is ridiculous- that's not your call.
As for the elves in Chapter 6 (I've only played the first game, so I can't judge for certain) but it surely sounds like if they're desperate enough you could convince them that you're a rogue Drow (which you'd have to be) and have yourself bound to one of the elves by Geas, or some other kind of unbreakable vow.
Once per day, all drow can use the spells dancing lights, faerie fire, and darkness. They achieve this through force of will, rather than spell components. A 4th - level drow can cast levitate, know alignment, and detect magic once per day. In addition, drow priests can cast clairvoyance, detect lie, suggestion, and dispel magic once a day. At the start, drow are 50% magic resistant, and every level they rise increases the resistance by 2% (to a maximum of 80%). Multiclassed drow use t he higher level to determine this bonus. In addition to their high magic resistance, drow also receive a +2 bonus on all saves involving magic. This includes those devices that emit magical effects or are powered by magic. This magic resistance does not hamper their ability to use magic themselves, however.
Special Disadvantages:
The major disadvantage of the drow is their inability to see in bright light. Any light greater than that of torches or continual lightspells (including bright sunlight) will blind them and severely affect their ability to fight. Wan light, like that of a light spell, does not trigger this disadvantage.Bright light causes the drow to suffer, temporarily, – 2 to Dexterity. Attack rolls are made at a – 2 penalty, and opponents gain a +2 save against drow spells if they are within the light. When a drow is in darkness and his opponents are in the light, he retains his Dexterity and surprise advantages but still suffers a penalty on attack rolls.
If the drow spends more than two weeks away from the subterranean caverns of the Underdark, the special advantages fade at the rate of one power a day. This starts from the most innate spellcasting and works down to the least powerful. Thus, a drow priest would first lose dispel magic, followed by suggestion, clairvoyance, and detect lie. Drow magic resistance is lost at a rate of 10% per day. This process can be halted and the powers regained if the drow returns to the Underdark and spends one day there for each week spent aboveground. Finally, all other elves hate the drow, and reactions to them are with at least a –4 penalty. This modifier is cumulative to any kits the drow player might be using. Only after a particular elf comes to accept a particular drow as a friend, does this penalty disappear.
Additional Experience Cost: 20%
BUT: CHARNAME live whole life on surface so he already lost all a special advantages and also is adapted on sunlight so dont have any disadvantages. So, all what we need is Drow subrace with this stats and some reputation penality ( -2 or -4 to starting reputation ). That's all. Nothing more.
Sure, why not? Personally I always had a weak spot for tauric, arthropodic races. But come to think of it, I also wouldn't mind to have an romanceable drider NPC in BG2:EE.
@Shandyr , @Dee Anyway, the Drow been always problematic because: 1) Too OP stats a powers 2) Story breaking issues
But
1) Isn´t problem anymore. Drow can be full implement according to 2nd edition rules. 2) Basically any problems with story in BG:EE, and only few small changes in BG2:EE.
I position myself about pretty much all that @Shandyr said, but i'm against a Drow charname atm. Because i hate the race and i don't want to play it? No, in fact pretty much the opposite, i would love to play as a drow, but as a true drow with the deserving consequences of choosing this race! Remember that you said no penality for drows @Edvin? Well the huge penality for drows would be losing half of the quests in BG and BG2, simply cos people woudn't trust you to give the quests!!
I'm against how the op of this thread, months ago, brought this subject. As i said before, if the devs want to make a drow sub-race, make it right, get the proper permissions to change content and rework the banters to make the race presence in main char viable, otherwise this will become another "menzobenzarran renegate race" as was made in neverwinter online. "Do you like Drizzt? Want to be drizzt? OK!! Here you go!! Be Drizzt and get a phanter companion as a bonus!!!" I never saw a so artificial feature into a game in all my life like this.
@kamuizin That is still same song. You cant complain on RP in games where nearly no one act like in RP. ( Try swap CHARNAME main position in party with Viconia or Baeloth, they give you all quest anyway )
You dont have problem with Drow, you need different game because BG can never be such as would you want it.
Not about RP in fact, if RP was all the issue debated, then we woudn't need a Drow, just an elf with dark skin, silver hair and a lot of imagination, the problem would be already solved. This is about coherence and balance. The line between a D&D game and a crazy fantastic world without a base is thin. So no, it's not the same song, or maybe it is to a degree, as much as asking for drows are the same song.
"2) Basically any problems with story in BG:EE, and only few small changes in BG2:EE."
Is a very biased way of see things here, as said before, the game is broken with drows from the very start, and to base justifies in mistakes is to enhance these mistakes.
@kamuizin Wow, It´s really brave to say something like that.
You basically saying: " Drow are broken and releasing Baeloth was VERY bad idea. "
I'm not saying that @Edvin and you know this, don't make me appear bad to justify a point! ¬¬!!
When i say that i want to play as a drow too, i'm really meaning that, but then i really want that gameplay to be recognized by the environment otherwise it's just an elf with dark skin and advantages.
@kamuizin Isn´t it weird asking different treatment for Drow CHARNAME than for others Drow in your party ? With your requirements would be Drow impossible to release.
Authors simply can not change behavior of the whole world to you, Viconia or Baeloth. Given what has Beamdog allowed to change, my suggestion is best what we can get.
Or do you know better "acceptable" way how release Drow ?
@Dee If these limitations wasnt discourage you from Baeloth release, then playable Drow race cant be problem. CHARNAME doesnt need any dubbing and require much less new texts than Baeloth.
Comments
Drow I'm not sure could be so easily hidden, but I'm not sure why it's such a big deal. I mean you could just give a Drow PC a -2 rep than they normally would start out with and headcannon that they are only left alone because they can handle themselves well enough and/or are protected by their companions who themselves can also handle themselves.
Drow it's a big issue cos without a lot of extra dialogues and change in the original content, you will always start chapter 6... dead, simple as that
According Contractual limitations are quote: " Small scale text only changes are possible "
We need change/add only few sentences:
1) BG1 - Recruiting Viconia ( Something like: " Hello brother/sister " )
2) BG2 - Few words in Solafein talks ( " I am not Drow i am CHARNAME_RACE [Drow] from survace. " )
3) BG2 - Elves in chapter 6 simply curse you and make you swear ( same way like they did it to Viconia )
4) BG2 - Few words in Viconia romance
That is all...
How hard it can be ? 30-60 min work ?
P.S.
You cant complain on RP in games where nearly no one act like in RP.
( We shouldn't be able even sleep in inns with Viconia in party )
Indeed, people in FR games doesn't care about CHARNAME race.
It's too late on RP changes ( if you dont want chage WHOLE game ).
Romance is only thing where is race important.
I see no good reasons why Drow should not be implemented.
The game don't do half of the hardship the party should endure for travel with viconia, however a fault in the scripts by the devs shouldn't become an excuse for more mistakes.
About chapter 6, viconia no matter what ONLY leave the elf camp with an GEAS spell cast on her under penality of death if her betray the elvens or the main char, and there's no argue about this geas, just to state.
The only video of leaving underdark i found, the voice of the guy recording this video is annoying so maybe some ppl would like to turn of the sounds and just read the banters.
In the end, no matter the lack of content to react with an drow in the players party, what happen in chapter 6 is storybreaking suffice to justify not have drow as a pickable race.
I will propose the following, convince the devs in make all the changes needed to make drow race coherent in Baldur's Gate 2 and i will support their addition 100%. But until then i stand by my position of be against the issue.
Dialogs with Elves in chapter 6 doesnt need big changes and they can cast two GEAS spell instead one. This isnt THAT hard to make.
But it's story breaking, so if that's to be done i just want it done right or not done at all.
An fast implement i would like atm isn't new race, new class, new kit, but an work in the structure of the engine that allows mods to more easly create completly new races, classes and kits. Today we can't make a new race for the lack of slots to put it, same with classes, an work to soft these problems for mods would be a huge help.
If we could mod the drow race well in the game, many changes would be able to be done as mods aren't limited by the contractual clauses Beamdog is, with an nice modder team this could work wonders.
I agree, though, that a better structure for races to allow for modders to create their own would be nice. It just might not happen for a while (if ever).
It would take some work... but so does rewriting the GUI or fixing bugs. Needing work is a false issue that people against subraces are bringing into the discussion to try to change the argument.
If @Dee and friends say that it's too much work to add, then maybe that's a legitimate response. But for you guys who aren't part of the team to say "too much work" is ridiculous- that's not your call.
As for the elves in Chapter 6 (I've only played the first game, so I can't judge for certain) but it surely sounds like if they're desperate enough you could convince them that you're a rogue Drow (which you'd have to be) and have yourself bound to one of the elves by Geas, or some other kind of unbreakable vow.
DROW ABILITY SCORES
Ability____________Minimum___________Maximum
Strength.....................3..............................18
Dexterity....................8..............................20
Constitution...............7..............................17
Intelligence................9..............................19
Wisdom......................3..............................18
Charisma....................6..............................16
Special Advantages:
Once per day, all drow can use the spells dancing lights, faerie fire, and darkness.
They achieve this through force of will, rather than spell components.
A 4th - level drow can cast levitate, know alignment, and detect magic once per day.
In addition, drow priests can cast clairvoyance, detect lie, suggestion, and dispel magic
once a day.
At the start, drow are 50% magic resistant, and every level they rise increases the
resistance by 2% (to a maximum of 80%). Multiclassed drow use t he higher level to
determine this bonus.
In addition to their high magic resistance, drow also receive a +2 bonus on all saves
involving magic. This includes those devices that emit magical effects or are powered by
magic. This magic resistance does not hamper their ability to use magic themselves,
however.
Special Disadvantages:
The major disadvantage of the drow is their inability to see in bright light. Any light greater
than that of torches or continual lightspells (including bright sunlight) will blind them and
severely affect their ability to fight. Wan light, like that of a light spell, does not trigger this
disadvantage.Bright light causes the drow to suffer, temporarily,
– 2 to Dexterity. Attack rolls are made at a
– 2 penalty, and opponents gain a +2 save against drow spells if they are within
the light. When a drow is in darkness and his opponents are in the light, he retains his Dexterity and surprise advantages but still suffers a penalty on attack rolls.
If the drow spends more than two weeks away from the subterranean caverns of the
Underdark, the special advantages fade at the rate of one power a day. This starts from
the most innate spellcasting and works down to the least powerful. Thus, a drow priest
would first lose dispel magic, followed by suggestion, clairvoyance, and detect lie. Drow
magic resistance is lost at a rate of 10% per day. This process can be halted and the
powers regained if the drow returns to the Underdark and spends one day there for each
week spent aboveground. Finally, all other elves hate the drow, and reactions to them are with at
least a –4 penalty. This modifier is cumulative to any kits the drow player might be using. Only
after a particular elf comes to accept a particular drow as a friend, does this penalty disappear.
Additional Experience Cost: 20%
BUT:
CHARNAME live whole life on surface so he already lost all a special advantages and also is adapted on sunlight so dont have any disadvantages. So, all what we need is Drow subrace with this stats and some reputation penality ( -2 or -4 to starting reputation ). That's all. Nothing more.
It's hard to explain...
Oh wait, isn't.
Because: " The Drow Rule Supreme ! "
But come to think of it, I also wouldn't mind to have an romanceable drider NPC in BG2:EE.
Anyway, the Drow been always problematic because:
1) Too OP stats a powers
2) Story breaking issues
But
1) Isn´t problem anymore. Drow can be full implement according to 2nd edition rules.
2) Basically any problems with story in BG:EE, and only few small changes in BG2:EE.
So, where you see problem now ?
I'm against how the op of this thread, months ago, brought this subject. As i said before, if the devs want to make a drow sub-race, make it right, get the proper permissions to change content and rework the banters to make the race presence in main char viable, otherwise this will become another "menzobenzarran renegate race" as was made in neverwinter online. "Do you like Drizzt? Want to be drizzt? OK!! Here you go!! Be Drizzt and get a phanter companion as a bonus!!!" I never saw a so artificial feature into a game in all my life like this.
That is still same song.
You cant complain on RP in games where nearly no one act like in RP.
( Try swap CHARNAME main position in party with Viconia or Baeloth, they give you all quest anyway )
You dont have problem with Drow, you need different game because BG can never be such as would you want it.
"2) Basically any problems with story in BG:EE, and only few small changes in BG2:EE."
Is a very biased way of see things here, as said before, the game is broken with drows from the very start, and to base justifies in mistakes is to enhance these mistakes.
Wow, It´s really brave to say something like that.
You basically saying:
" Drow are broken and releasing Baeloth was VERY bad idea. "
When i say that i want to play as a drow too, i'm really meaning that, but then i really want that gameplay to be recognized by the environment otherwise it's just an elf with dark skin and advantages.
Isn´t it weird asking different treatment for Drow CHARNAME than for others Drow in your party ?
With your requirements would be Drow impossible to release.
Authors simply can not change behavior of the whole world to you, Viconia or Baeloth.
Given what has Beamdog allowed to change, my suggestion is best what we can get.
Or do you know better "acceptable" way how release Drow ?
I think you have finally correctly identified why this won't be done.
If these limitations wasnt discourage you from Baeloth release, then playable Drow race cant be problem.
CHARNAME doesnt need any dubbing and require much less new texts than Baeloth.