Well I have no problem with it as a mod. But if this is something done officially by a company then everything associated with being a drow should be implemented. A level of professionalism should be expected.
The same why I believe you can't ask them to bring Dynaheir back to life without them altering all the content associated with that character.
If this is something you just want to tack on with not further alteration, then mod it.
@Draith012 I'm not sure what you mean by this. There's not a whole lot that would need to be added, and some of it they are/were bound by their contracts not to change (the way the game plays, etc.). If anything a small amount of reasonable suspension of disbelief might be called for with people not reacting to a Drow... but then again, if you're roleplaying right you're probably an evil Drow so people will likely react poorly to you anyways. Then there's the age-old method of wearing a hood, as well.
This and other subraces I feel could be added into the game with a minimal amount of work and greatly add to the replayability and variability of the game.
@ladyrhian thanks for the insightful and factual comment!
Yes I did necro this a bit (2 months) but it was on topic and as a moderator of other forums I know it's usually more helpful for everyone to bring back a relevant thread that's on subject than to start a new one.
@rathlord we're trying to not have twenty individual threads about Drow (or any other want to be added item) in any case. Perhaps we can have the coders allow all colors to be used for paperdoll hair/skin color? That way, you could make a "Drow" an elf with black/dark grey/whatever skin color rather than being limited to pale peach (I hesitate to call it "Flesh-colored" because not all humans have flesh that color) and brown or dark brown? (Cue Bloom County's "Flesh Colored Bandaid" strip...)
@LadyRhian I suppose that would mirror the look you get from a Drow, but if I were playing one I'd love it to feel like one as well. I've never played AD&D 2 PNP (only later editions) but I know that in most of the later editions Drow both as PCs and as NPCs have special abilities like darkfire, globe of darkness, levitation, etc. While obviously these would need to balanced, I think they would be necessary for me to really feel it worth while. Darkfire seems like a pretty easy one to implement, the other two would obviously be harder.
I'm pretty sure Drow weren't meant as PCs in 2nd Edition so to balance their almost certain level of overpoweredness, you could just say that their time spent in open sky makes them weaker than their cousins underground.
BG break this issue. Viconia (drow elf) is an joinable NPC both in BG and BG2. The problem with a main char drow, is the break on history line of the Gorion's Bhaalspawn ward, specially in chapter 6 of BG2.
@rathlord Drow first showed up in Unearthed Arcana as a playable race. They were called "Dark Elves". and even then, female Dark Elves and male Dark Elves had different abilities (females were unlimited level clerics, and could reach higher levels as a fighter. Whereas males were limited to lower levels as a cleric and fighter, but higher as a Magic User, and both could be unlimited level thieves). They could also be Cavaliers (a mounted specialty fighter- Paladins at the time were a subset of Cavaliers) and Rangers, as well as Assassins (a separate class from thieves) and Thief-Acrobats.
The writeup mentions that they are different from surface elves. They have inky black skin and white or silver hair and are generally evil and chaotic (and better known as Drow), but PCs are not required to be evil and/or chaotic. PCs didn't get 50% Magic Resistance. but they did get Faerie Fire, Darkness 5' Radius and Dancing Lights once a day, and at 4th level, they got the ability to Levitate, Detect Magic and Know Alignment, also once a day. Females also got the ability, at 4th level, for Clairvoyance, Detect Lie (or its reverse, Undetectable Lie, Suggestion and Detect Magic, also once per day. They had lesser Infravision than regular elves, but females could move at 15" (males limited to 12", which was essentially human speed, small demi-humans were limited to 9"). They had +2 to saves vs magic, Resisance to Sleep and Charm like surface Elves- but no pluses when using sword and bow- instead, they got two free dots that could be used for any weapon (to put it in BG/BG2 terms), essentially, two free proficiencies- but you couldn't take it in the same weapon. Plus, the language proficiency known as "Undercommon", the lingua franca of the Underdark. It's not the common spoken on the surface, but a mix of words from Underdark races. Plus an unspoken language of hand gestures and signs that only Drow could truly master.
2e dropped that, but when the Complete Book of Elves came out in 1992, they added them back in. Drow are evil, believe in might over justice. They had infravision to 90' (most other elves got 60'), and was so intense that their eyes actually radiated heat (to infravision, their eyes glow bright white). Drow raised in the Underdark get the Darkness, Faerie Fire and Dancing Lights powers, and at 4th level, they get Levitate, Detect Magic and Know Alignment abilities, plus Priests get Clairvoyance, Detect Lie, Suggestion and Detect Magic but after 2 weeks away from the Underdark, they lose 1 power per day until they are gone. They get 5% Magic Resistance per level, up to 80%. +2 on any save involving magic (including magic from devices like wands). However, if they grew up in the Underdark, they are blinded by bright light, and get -2 to their Dexterity in bright light, plus a -2 to attacks. Their opponents get +2 to saves against Drow Spells if they are within a bright light. If the Drow is in darkness and his or her opponents in bright light, he retains his Dexterity, but still gets -2 to his/her attack. They also lose 10% magic resistance per day on the surface after 2 weeks, and this can only be regained by spending a day per week on the surface in the Underdark. Powers are lost from most to least powerful, with the most powerful going first. They also get a 20% experience penalty across the board. They are also hated, receiving a -4 reaction penalty from surface elves. The only way to eliminate this penalty is for the Drow and the surface elf to become friends. (But surface elves are likely to kill a Drow on sight before this can happen, obviously.)
Drow of the Underdark, FOR2, came out in 1991. It was for the Forgotten Realms only. It said that the innate magic powers were powered by concentration, and strong light made a Drow unable to concentrate, thus the powers could only be used at night or in the dark/twilight. It also delves into the mindset of Drow. They consider no race their superior, the best you can get is "Possible Equals". They trust no other creatures. Possible Equals are dealt with via armed truces, hard bargaining, subtle threats, magic and mutual gain pacts. Only exceptional Drow are even capable of trusting another being fully (and mostly worshippers of Eilistraee), but even their trust is exceptionally hard to gain. They always get +2 to their surprise rolls because they are ALWAYS expecting to be attacked. But this book is mostly fluff over crunch. It's less about their abilities and more about what their society is like, with the addition of Gods, spells and magic items for "crunch". It's fascinating reading.
I doubt bitch black skin is gonna be hidden indefinitely behind a hood. Regardless, you said yourself, if you were to play a drow, you want it to feel as though you were playing it. Now, taking the time to read some of the other posts, as this argument has already been made, isn't it contradicting of you to even state that the change would only need to be a simple one while trying to maintain a true feel of 'drow' on the surface world of Forgotten Realms?
Nevertheless, the seemingly simple act of adding drow (as an official addon) should be done with the utmost professionalism. That includes game content and rp perspectives in mind.
If all you want is for your player character to appear drow, act drow and what not but have no further alteration to the game at large, stick with a mod. That's what I meant.
I think people should realise that adding Dark Elves into BG is simply a bad idea.
Even if they are added into Baldur's Gate (which I don't think they will) players will never get the full experience from playing as a Drow. The dev's probably won't go through the effort of re-writing large parts of the plot to explain why a Dark Elf was raised in Candlekeep.
I mean come on - do people *really* want to play as a Drow when they will never get the full experience of playing as one? All the interesting racial dialogue, all the racial hate, unique discussions with Viconia, Baeloth, Drizzt and surface elves. The dev's cannot possibly (even without the contract limitations) be asked to rewrite all of this just for one subrace.
Even in games such as NWN2 in which Dark Elves were written into the story were lacking. I admit I loved the bit at the beginning of the game where that guy who made his tiny pig big (can't remember his name) yelled at my PC "Wherever you go people will always see your skin and judge you." I genuinely loved that bit. Until, however, I realised shortly into the game that many people ignored my PC being a Drow and treated me as normal. I quit that character fairly quickly - it was just an endless list of contradictions.
What is the point in playing as a Dark Elf when you cannot truly play as one? The only way this could every work is if a BG style game came out set within the underdark - which I think would be amazing.
If you do not care about any of the above roleplay possibilities, then why not simply make your 'Dark Elf' have dark skin and white hair?
....unless of course the only reason people want to play a Dark Elf is for the insane magic resistance and abilities....
....unless of course the only reason people want to play a Dark Elf is for the insane magic resistance and abilities....
Which they wouldn't get anyway, being raised on the surface, and thus having lost it all when they were babies, or never gotten it, since those abilities are only developed in the Underdark. So basically, it's like asking to play a black person in the pre-Civil Rights south. None of the advantages, all of the drawbacks.
I doubt bitch black skin is gonna be hidden indefinitely behind a hood. Regardless, you said yourself, if you were to play a drow, you want it to feel as though you were playing it. Now, taking the time to read some of the other posts, as this argument has already been made, isn't it contradicting of you to even state that the change would only need to be a simple one while trying to maintain a true feel of 'drow' on the surface world of Forgotten Realms?
Nevertheless, the seemingly simple act of adding drow (as an official addon) should be done with the utmost professionalism. That includes game content and rp perspectives in mind.
If all you want is for your player character to appear drow, act drow and what not but have no further alteration to the game at large, stick with a mod. That's what I meant.
That's a good point to a certain extent, but simple changes can go a long way. Like I said, make any Drow character start out hated- from there, if you raise your reputation, it is assumed you are known. By your reputation. Like I said, if I made a Drow he would likely be an evil character. So yes, a certain amount of dialogue would be needed and a certain amount of reaction from key plot characters, but otherwise you could be mainly treated like any other hated character- with hate.
Besides, as I said above, I'm not just vying for Drow, I'd like to see as many subraces as possible added.
I'm not, as Entropy seems to be suggesting, a power gamer only interested in the Drow racial abilities. I love the flavor of the Drow, and while I know it's kind of like playing a "half-demon half-vampire son of a god" (as far as corny/stupid player choices go), I've played Drow in several PNP games that I've just absolutely loved. I'd like to see the same thing in BG.
I really, truly don't think it would be *that* challenging to add them. The racials would obviously be simple, and as far as dialogue/gameplay- some unique dialogue with each party member. This would be a bit of work, not terribly hard. A huge reaction penalty for all NPC's flagged as "elven," a good bit of dialogue with the few other Drow in the game, a decent sized reputation penalty for the beginning of the game, and being locked out of the obvious class choices.
I still don't understand the "well I wouldn't enjoy it so no one else can" argument, and it makes me a little sad. It's something I see in a lot of games, and personally I think subraces would be fun and it's obvious from this and other threads that a decent amount of people agree. So, if it's not viable/the devs think it's not worth their time then that's fine, but I wish people didn't use the "I wouldn't play it/don't like it so it can't be in" thing.
Subraces aren't as straight-forward as they look. If we do end up implementing them (and that's a big "if"), it won't be for a good while.
So the short-term answer is, no, subraces (and drow in particular) aren't viable enough to be worth the development time. They may get a look much later on, but I wouldn't hold out any secret hopes for it.
I think it'd be far too much work to have dialogue for every npc you can converse with in NWN2, seeing as not only can you be drow, but also tiefling. Tiefling, I just adore the concept for BG simply because of your character's true origin along with tiefling actually being able to blend into a crowd far easier than a drow (Neeshka was an extreme example of tiefling where they wanted you to know she's tiefling). So I can see that subrace being implemented before drow, to be honest. It hinders immersion far less. And quite frankly, the abilities you inherit during each chapter in BG feels like a fair representation towards that direction.
In any case, whenever WotSC tries to implement race specific dialogue for npcs towards drow and similar races, they usually fall short pass the tutorial. IWD2 had a few and in rare cases, a Paladin encounters another knight with specific dialogue if he were to see him/her first (This is back in the Ice Temple where the wall melts after you defeat that queen worm thingie and some armored cambion looking guy opens dialogue).
@Dee Fair point and I completely agree. I know right now the bigger issues are stuff like bugs and quality of life stuff. I can't argue that at all. I do hope that you guys toss it around at some point seriously, though. Like I said, variation can bring a huge amount of replayability to the table which is great for a mostly linear gameplay experience like BG (in relation to modern games, at least). I think that it might be interesting, as well, to take some of the current party members in the game (especially the less played ones) and make some of them subraces of their current race just to add a bit of flavor and encourage people to play them. I could see how that might be a touchy issue for some people ("hey you can't change 'x,' she's my favorite character!) and I'm also sure you can't do that right now for contract issues (though possibly not so much in the future?).
Long and short is, I very much see how it can't be a short term goal but I'd love to keep kicking around the idea and hear what people have to say.
Oh- also. If someone were to mod a subrace mod that was balanced and flavorful (contract issues aside) would you guys consider implementing it into the core game?
And as an offshoot of that, if anyone would be interested in making said mod I'd be happy to do the dialogue for it if someone wants to do the nitty gritty. I'd love to see a whole slew of subraces added just so if people wanted them, they'd be there; I'd be willing to sink a considerable amount of time into making each one unique and flavorful.
Subraces aren't as straight-forward as they look. If we do end up implementing them (and that's a big "if"), it won't be for a good while.
So the short-term answer is, no, subraces (and drow in particular) aren't viable enough to be worth the development time. They may get a look much later on, but I wouldn't hold out any secret hopes for it.
Don't let that stop the discussion, though!
Drow are probably most popular race from whole forgotten realms universe. ( mostly because books about certain ranger ). Implementing them make MANY people very happy and together with some good commercial it also can bring more purchasers " Drow are coming to BG:EE ! Now you can play your favorite character race ! " ( or somethin like that ). Not because magic resist or states bonus, simply because Drow are cool ( and rule supreme ). Even if they will not have any special bonuses, or dialog options, we don´t care. Playing as Drow is reward itself.
P.S. We dont want any mods with fake Drow. With good editor can anyone change race name, recolor skin or set all stats to 25, but that is wrong ! This topic exist because we want them real and official.
My vote is still for the whole plethora of subraces. It would be kinda neat once this whole mess is behind us for them to just do one subrace a month. Not a whole lot of work involved and it would give that "the game is always being updated" feel.
I doubt that Gorion would been granted entry to Candlekeep with a dark elven child. Or would even get away from dark elven assassins long enough to keep the child safe.
I wonder though how CHARNAME is able to class as a Dragon Disciple. Dragon and Bhaal in the ancestry line is a bit too much coincidence.
Anyway, drow and PnP bonuses for high INT and WIS are most popular topics in whole Feature Requests section, and even this cant convince developers to implement implement. I dont understand it... Isnt satisfying public wishes best way how raise sales ?
I've been playing NWN2 as a drow and understand the opposition to implementing it. First off, you're far too powerful. There are numerous bonuses and only the slight disadvantage of being two levels behind everyone else. Next, it's difficult to suspend disbelief when few people comment on your race. Even when they do, it's not a big issue. I'm not that familiar with the 3.5 edition lore, but I think that drow are still seen as essentially evil.
Then again, I have a Tiefling in my party and not too many people seem to care about that either. Maybe the people in Neverwinter are more open minded and accepting than those on the Sword Coast.
Comments
This and other subraces I feel could be added into the game with a minimal amount of work and greatly add to the replayability and variability of the game.
@ladyrhian thanks for the insightful and factual comment!
Yes I did necro this a bit (2 months) but it was on topic and as a moderator of other forums I know it's usually more helpful for everyone to bring back a relevant thread that's on subject than to start a new one.
I'm pretty sure Drow weren't meant as PCs in 2nd Edition so to balance their almost certain level of overpoweredness, you could just say that their time spent in open sky makes them weaker than their cousins underground.
The writeup mentions that they are different from surface elves. They have inky black skin and white or silver hair and are generally evil and chaotic (and better known as Drow), but PCs are not required to be evil and/or chaotic. PCs didn't get 50% Magic Resistance. but they did get Faerie Fire, Darkness 5' Radius and Dancing Lights once a day, and at 4th level, they got the ability to Levitate, Detect Magic and Know Alignment, also once a day. Females also got the ability, at 4th level, for Clairvoyance, Detect Lie (or its reverse, Undetectable Lie, Suggestion and Detect Magic, also once per day. They had lesser Infravision than regular elves, but females could move at 15" (males limited to 12", which was essentially human speed, small demi-humans were limited to 9"). They had +2 to saves vs magic, Resisance to Sleep and Charm like surface Elves- but no pluses when using sword and bow- instead, they got two free dots that could be used for any weapon (to put it in BG/BG2 terms), essentially, two free proficiencies- but you couldn't take it in the same weapon. Plus, the language proficiency known as "Undercommon", the lingua franca of the Underdark. It's not the common spoken on the surface, but a mix of words from Underdark races. Plus an unspoken language of hand gestures and signs that only Drow could truly master.
2e dropped that, but when the Complete Book of Elves came out in 1992, they added them back in. Drow are evil, believe in might over justice. They had infravision to 90' (most other elves got 60'), and was so intense that their eyes actually radiated heat (to infravision, their eyes glow bright white). Drow raised in the Underdark get the Darkness, Faerie Fire and Dancing Lights powers, and at 4th level, they get Levitate, Detect Magic and Know Alignment abilities, plus Priests get Clairvoyance, Detect Lie, Suggestion and Detect Magic but after 2 weeks away from the Underdark, they lose 1 power per day until they are gone. They get 5% Magic Resistance per level, up to 80%. +2 on any save involving magic (including magic from devices like wands). However, if they grew up in the Underdark, they are blinded by bright light, and get -2 to their Dexterity in bright light, plus a -2 to attacks. Their opponents get +2 to saves against Drow Spells if they are within a bright light. If the Drow is in darkness and his or her opponents in bright light, he retains his Dexterity, but still gets -2 to his/her attack. They also lose 10% magic resistance per day on the surface after 2 weeks, and this can only be regained by spending a day per week on the surface in the Underdark. Powers are lost from most to least powerful, with the most powerful going first. They also get a 20% experience penalty across the board. They are also hated, receiving a -4 reaction penalty from surface elves. The only way to eliminate this penalty is for the Drow and the surface elf to become friends. (But surface elves are likely to kill a Drow on sight before this can happen, obviously.)
Drow of the Underdark, FOR2, came out in 1991. It was for the Forgotten Realms only. It said that the innate magic powers were powered by concentration, and strong light made a Drow unable to concentrate, thus the powers could only be used at night or in the dark/twilight. It also delves into the mindset of Drow. They consider no race their superior, the best you can get is "Possible Equals". They trust no other creatures. Possible Equals are dealt with via armed truces, hard bargaining, subtle threats, magic and mutual gain pacts. Only exceptional Drow are even capable of trusting another being fully (and mostly worshippers of Eilistraee), but even their trust is exceptionally hard to gain. They always get +2 to their surprise rolls because they are ALWAYS expecting to be attacked. But this book is mostly fluff over crunch. It's less about their abilities and more about what their society is like, with the addition of Gods, spells and magic items for "crunch". It's fascinating reading.
I doubt bitch black skin is gonna be hidden indefinitely behind a hood. Regardless, you said yourself, if you were to play a drow, you want it to feel as though you were playing it. Now, taking the time to read some of the other posts, as this argument has already been made, isn't it contradicting of you to even state that the change would only need to be a simple one while trying to maintain a true feel of 'drow' on the surface world of Forgotten Realms?
Nevertheless, the seemingly simple act of adding drow (as an official addon) should be done with the utmost professionalism. That includes game content and rp perspectives in mind.
If all you want is for your player character to appear drow, act drow and what not but have no further alteration to the game at large, stick with a mod. That's what I meant.
Even if they are added into Baldur's Gate (which I don't think they will) players will never get the full experience from playing as a Drow. The dev's probably won't go through the effort of re-writing large parts of the plot to explain why a Dark Elf was raised in Candlekeep.
I mean come on - do people *really* want to play as a Drow when they will never get the full experience of playing as one? All the interesting racial dialogue, all the racial hate, unique discussions with Viconia, Baeloth, Drizzt and surface elves. The dev's cannot possibly (even without the contract limitations) be asked to rewrite all of this just for one subrace.
Even in games such as NWN2 in which Dark Elves were written into the story were lacking. I admit I loved the bit at the beginning of the game where that guy who made his tiny pig big (can't remember his name) yelled at my PC "Wherever you go people will always see your skin and judge you." I genuinely loved that bit. Until, however, I realised shortly into the game that many people ignored my PC being a Drow and treated me as normal. I quit that character fairly quickly - it was just an endless list of contradictions.
What is the point in playing as a Dark Elf when you cannot truly play as one? The only way this could every work is if a BG style game came out set within the underdark - which I think would be amazing.
If you do not care about any of the above roleplay possibilities, then why not simply make your 'Dark Elf' have dark skin and white hair?
....unless of course the only reason people want to play a Dark Elf is for the insane magic resistance and abilities....
Which they wouldn't get anyway, being raised on the surface, and thus having lost it all when they were babies, or never gotten it, since those abilities are only developed in the Underdark. So basically, it's like asking to play a black person in the pre-Civil Rights south. None of the advantages, all of the drawbacks.
Besides, as I said above, I'm not just vying for Drow, I'd like to see as many subraces as possible added.
I'm not, as Entropy seems to be suggesting, a power gamer only interested in the Drow racial abilities. I love the flavor of the Drow, and while I know it's kind of like playing a "half-demon half-vampire son of a god" (as far as corny/stupid player choices go), I've played Drow in several PNP games that I've just absolutely loved. I'd like to see the same thing in BG.
I really, truly don't think it would be *that* challenging to add them. The racials would obviously be simple, and as far as dialogue/gameplay- some unique dialogue with each party member. This would be a bit of work, not terribly hard. A huge reaction penalty for all NPC's flagged as "elven," a good bit of dialogue with the few other Drow in the game, a decent sized reputation penalty for the beginning of the game, and being locked out of the obvious class choices.
I still don't understand the "well I wouldn't enjoy it so no one else can" argument, and it makes me a little sad. It's something I see in a lot of games, and personally I think subraces would be fun and it's obvious from this and other threads that a decent amount of people agree. So, if it's not viable/the devs think it's not worth their time then that's fine, but I wish people didn't use the "I wouldn't play it/don't like it so it can't be in" thing.
So the short-term answer is, no, subraces (and drow in particular) aren't viable enough to be worth the development time. They may get a look much later on, but I wouldn't hold out any secret hopes for it.
Don't let that stop the discussion, though!
In any case, whenever WotSC tries to implement race specific dialogue for npcs towards drow and similar races, they usually fall short pass the tutorial. IWD2 had a few and in rare cases, a Paladin encounters another knight with specific dialogue if he were to see him/her first (This is back in the Ice Temple where the wall melts after you defeat that queen worm thingie and some armored cambion looking guy opens dialogue).
Long and short is, I very much see how it can't be a short term goal but I'd love to keep kicking around the idea and hear what people have to say.
And as an offshoot of that, if anyone would be interested in making said mod I'd be happy to do the dialogue for it if someone wants to do the nitty gritty. I'd love to see a whole slew of subraces added just so if people wanted them, they'd be there; I'd be willing to sink a considerable amount of time into making each one unique and flavorful.
P.S.
We dont want any mods with fake Drow. With good editor can anyone change race name, recolor skin or set all stats to 25, but that is wrong ! This topic exist because we want them real and official.
Can we get ours Drow now ?
Please ?
that describes my Sith Marauder in SWTOR (Light Side Sith Pureblood)
I wonder though how CHARNAME is able to class as a Dragon Disciple. Dragon and Bhaal in the ancestry line is a bit too much coincidence.
In Gorion's case toward Candlekeep...
"But he followed me, home, can I keep him?"
In Icewind Dale 2, it's work because you are in the far north and playing a mercenary group.
In Baldur's Gate, you are in the sword coast and they are know to be slaver and dangerous.They are usually kill on sight.
Without these two, it's should be fine to implement the others without modification and respect the lore.
The various persons you encounter would not care which kind of human, Dwarf, elf, gnome and halfling you are.
What do you guys think?
As for dragon disciple, I think Charname's mother have draconic ancestor.For a normal sorcerer, your power come from Bhaal.
What can change one more ?
Then again, I have a Tiefling in my party and not too many people seem to care about that either. Maybe the people in Neverwinter are more open minded and accepting than those on the Sword Coast.
So that why I say a compromise by putting all in except drow and duergar.