good drow are not a problem. at all. but racism/prejudice is.
@akerhon: i think @smeagolheart answered himself in his post. it's exactly this prejudice that is the problem. the inkeeper will by default presume SOMETHING based on the race of a %charname%. he might also think that halfling will try to steal something because they are so nimble and typically a good thief.
what character does afterwards is a roleplay aspect- he might sacrifice and burn or help and donate, which will then change innkeepers opinion. but the issue still stands- goodness is not presumed for all races, but they do have stereotypical/presumed traits. problem is that EVIL is that racial/cultural stereotype tied to drow and it needs to be addressed somehow for better roleplaying experience. that can include very wide range of reactions- fear, prejudice, admiration, reserved behaviour etc. not just attack on sight.
from engine standpoint there is no problem at all to include drow as a subrace (im sure modders will if developers wont) and not delve too deep into what that means in FR world. we've seen it before.
Ever heard of prejudice? Since the vast majority of drow elves are evil murderers, people are scared of them and hate them. It is a FACT per every source book ever published under the D&D franchise that drow elves are feared and loathed in the surface, and mostly attacked on sight regardless of their alignment. You could play a good drow elf and still be attacked on sight by the Flaming Fist. How a drow could possibly be allowed into Suldanessellar and collaborate with surface elves is beyond me, considering how fierce the hatred runs between surface elves and drow elves. There is absolutely no way for Baldur's Gate to let you play as a drow elf and be consistent / make roleplay sense at the same time.
If you say you can live with the inconsistency, that's fine. I'd rather not, but I can just as well choose not to play as a drow elf if they're implemented. But trying to justify drow elves as a viable choice that makes sense for CHARNAME is a vane quest if there ever was one :-)
I realize this is a bit like a broken record, but what about Viconia? By your statement, she's in direct conflict with everything you said. Not to mention Drizzt (even though he's an anomaly).
In fact, I have openly stated in an earlier post that ingame reactions to Viconia are unrealistically mild. Drizzt, on the other hand, proves my point: he's a good drow, yet he'd had a very hard time making himself accepted upon coming to the surface. It is only after years of good deeds, and thanks to friends of good repute standing surety for him, that his reputation has made him accepted in the surface (and only where his reputation has reached).
@AndreaColombo very good point concerning Drizzt. What if it's thought about this way: CHARNAME is starting on the surface (as in, coming out of the isolation of Candlekeep) in much the same way as Drizzt: hated initially based on prejudice/reputation (i.e. low, low starting reputation), but with "friends of good repute" helping his case (Elminster, the late Gorion, etc). Through the course of BG1/BG2 CHARNAME has his/her chance to make their impact on the Sword Coast in much the same way Drizzt impacted the Spine of the World.
Obviously at this point it's more of a thought experiement, because by now, you need to think about accounting for additional dialogue when encountering NPCs, perhaps a few more additional Elminster appearances, maybe an extra Drizzt appearance after meeting him at the Gnolls, etc, etc...but it would be an interesting re-imagining of the game, in my opinion My chief concern would definitely be balance over lore.
I ask myself what will happen in BG2 if drows are allowed as main chars. In BG1 this will bring a lot of inconsistency, but... in BG2, after the party leave underdark and fall on the middle of a war camp of the elf army... Even when the main char is good and the party has a good reputation, they show their antagonism against Viconia.
They don't kill her on the spot when the party leave underdark for interrogations matter. After the interrogation, when they see that the main char is their last resort, and even knowing that Viconia is a outcast, they demand to put her on the collar with a geas spell, to bound her.
Viconia survive out of trust, bound to the main char and to the elf mission with a spell that will kill her if any treason is made. They put their trust on the main char there, but... would they do that if main char was a drow? To justify that part of the game... can anyone think in a way to pass this point of the game as a drow?
I ask myself what will happen in BG2 if drows are allowed as main chars. In BG1 this will bring a lot of inconsistency, but... in BG2, after the party leave underdark and fall on the middle of a war camp of the elf army... Even when the main char is good and the party has a good reputation, they show their antagonism against Viconia.
They don't kill her on the spot when the party leave underdark for interrogations matter. After the interrogation, when they see that the main char is their last resort, and even knowing that Viconia is a outcast, they demand to put her on the collar with a geas spell, to bound her.
Viconia survive out of trust, bound to the main char and to the elf mission with a spell that will kill her if any treason is made. They put their trust on the main char there, but... would they do that if main char was a drow? To justify that part of the game... can anyone think in a way to pass this point of the game as a drow?
I was also thinking about that part before... A party, led by a drow emerges from Underdark saying that "Hey, we've come to help you out!" What would their reaction be? And I even forgot and didn't think about the part with Viconia... :S
If they would put drows in as a race option, they would definetly have to let some things slip by lorewise, or redo most of the conversations and quests for that race/subrace only, which is something that we really can't expect them to do or so I think. So in my opinion we either let this whole thing go, or accept that there will be some "gray areas" in the story. The stats would also have to be a bit nerfed from the original D&D drow stats and we would have to loose some stuffs there too to make them less potent compared to other races. With the mod my problem would be, that the discrepancies with the D&D universe would be most likely even more.
I really think that the Drow race will make game more interesting, it will be new feature and it will be also quite good challenge for developers to setup this special race correctly into run-in world.
Just set Drow`s abilities to the state of balance with other races, put few new dialogue interaction to selected NPC, make 1 Drow item for Baldurs Gate 1 (for example a Ring that can turn Day into a Night for a few combat rounds ?? nothink big). If someone thinks Drows in Gb as an Main Char is crazy, just dont create it.
When I played BG for the firstime, I was ten years old. Now after 13 years, when I still love this game I really like to play Drow warrior and be like Drizzt Do`Urden and run down whole story
Jut put down prejudice and let the Rivers flow. We are not responsible for our origin(Race), but only for our desires and decisions.
@GrungeChlapec lets play as Beholder's too so, and we can even make a new way to finsh the quest of the unseeing eye on BG 2 too!!! Better, let's make a new stronghold for beholder's main char's in underdark and more options there!!! Did i told about a shauagin main char? He could turn himself the king on shauagin city instead of the princes!!! Or even a Mind flayer main char, he could help the flayers on the sewers of temple distric instead of destroy them!!!!
Crazy ideas, no? But why? They're all underdark inhabitants, all of them come from inteligent races and have playable states.
Look, i like to have options on the game, i love the Valen mod of weimer, i liked kindred and solafein mods too. I already made playtroughs with ninja kit, priest of malar (if i'm not wrong) and a lot of other crazy kits from the TDD huge mod. But that's the point, wait for Mods to have this, if Beamdog even come with mods or DLCs that make those crazy i will not complain if they put that as opitional, non official or don't try to modify the playtrough because of those mods/DLCs.
When i played with valen i get a lot of inconsistence on the game, and that's natural (i just unninstall the mod in the playtroughs i will not have valen on the party) we can't edit the whole game to make accetable the presence of a vampire NPC on the party. It's for fun, but if we hav to change the whole history to imput those new options, that will surely prejudice the history of Baldur's Gate.
Good morning sir @kamuizin , thank you for such a reply. Meaning of BG is more important for me rather than involving one new race. So, it just looks like ile have to play an ordinary Elf with black skin and two scimitars in each hand. No big deal.
I dont know who will take a decision on this fact, but above all it must be good for the game itself. Thanks for your explanation. You look like a man Who exactly know what he is talking about. But in love, you know..there are now space for sucht a thing like a pure wisdom I just thought that Bhaal`s child is an exception of the rule, but not such a thing like half-basilisk or Beholder itself.
But what about idea of little quest wich will be available only if you play Black skined Elf and drows in some dark spot in CloakWood forest will make you a member of Drow`s family ? Thats all. Just one little entry in the Journal. Sounds like an Easter Egg, isnt it ?
Thx and with all respect, Grunge.
p.s : Sorry for my lame english.
p.p.s : Beholders being main char, doesn't seem to be nearly as epic as Drows.. no offens sir None taken.
No problem with the lame english mr. @GrungeChlapec, mine too is not what i call perfect. About the variants on the baalspawns, i see no problem, in fact there is a children of Bhaal drow already, Sendai, one of the Five that you must fight in ToB. And Why not a half-basilisk too? There's even a bunny shapeshifter son of bhaal on the game anyway (you can meet him outside of Yaga-Shura's domain to the left, he's the leader of a group of bhaalspaws from... errr unique races)!
I didn't get the idea for the mini quest on cloackwood frorest by the way.
Imagine for a moment that you play Elf main char and you have got black skin (base character setup during character creation), wich is including cool appearance anyway ( ). Then you will meet a groupe of Drows somewhere during your jurney and they specify the quest for you( if and only if your character satisfies the conditions of this ques...Elf,black color of Skin).It could be some kind of puzzle or logical rebus.. or to get special things from the list they gave you.
You will be namend like member of some kind of rare Drow family and verbally promoted to Drow after you finish this quest.
Then you can tell to your self : " What the hell it was ?" Group of drows are gone and you have a funny update in your Journal. Something like : " I was promote on drow...wow..what a cool day...for an even just a momemt i didnt think that there`s chance to finish this game and not to be a Drow ". But ! They can help you in some fight in another chapter or you can obtain a tittle in front of your name like a reward for your help wich you gave them in the past.
Well @GrungeChlapec, don't want to disappoint you but... man your idea of a drow quest or... drow...promotion... errr that's, (using google translator for euphemism) clumsy, to say the least. Do you really think that if you paint a elf with dark in he's a drow? And look, i'm not even asking why a group of drows are in cloackwood.
If ppl insist in drows on the surface... a group hunting the outcast Viconia would apply better and the end of this meet is more malleable than a from nothing bump into a group of drows.
And by the way, how ppl can be so imbecile to disagree with my last post? I didn't raise any questions or possibilites there.. neither is an expression of my opinion. I just made an observation and that's all. 2 things there, i spoke of Sendai (of the five) and the bunny spawn. Both exist on the original content, if someone disagree with that just don't play the game, cos that's disagree with the original story itself.
This one however has my opinion, feel free everyone to disagree or not.
I agree with @kamuizin and I, too, was surprised someone would disagree with his previous post. Some people are apparently allergic to FACTS. Can everyone please stop trying to justify drow elves as a playabe race from a roleplaying standpoint? There is no justification, period. If you still want it and don't mind living with the inconsistency, state it openly. The devs may or may not agree with you, but from a roleplaying standpoint drows (just as much as duergars, for that matter) as a playable race in Baldur's Gate make no sense what-so-ever.
This is the most important point in this thread :P "disagrees" are just justification that the discussion is interesting!
@AndreaColombo except for the Viconia justification...*cringes*
@Akerhon - starting with 50% magic resist up to 80%, coupled with additional magic saving throws, makes drow the most powerful race by far. Extremely far.
Might as well throw in my opinion, I think including Drow as playable is a very bad idea. I understand the appeal, but it simply can not be justified in the story. Viconia's justification is shaky enough, but she STILL is only alive due to CHARNAME showing up to save her, and due to her being willing to be bound to not betray you by a gaes upon exiting the Underdark. Additionally it does seem that at least some of the people in support of this idea are really just wanting to play an extremely OP character. As @nulspace mentioned, insanely high magic resistance coupled with improved saving throws and no downside completely unbalances the races.
@Dazzu, drows are dark, bad, wear weird clothers and armors, live their lifes in fear (of the spider queen) and enjoy it, a society where womans have more guts than mens... conclusion: they're the forgotten realms incarnation of emos. Therefore they have a fanclub !
Just imagine 6 elf females with black skin in one party I love exotic!
The whole "sex with female drows" thing can get out of hand pretty easily in the sleazy mind of a roleplayer, and Baldur's Gate II has set a dangerous precedent about it (what with CHARNAME sleeping with Phaere) LOL
No DROW !!! FFS Just Normal Elf, with black color of skin ! (you know...colors...red..blue..black ) If elf has got a black skin, it doesnt mean that he has to be Drow instantly.
Comments
@akerhon: i think @smeagolheart answered himself in his post. it's exactly this prejudice that is the problem. the inkeeper will by default presume SOMETHING based on the race of a %charname%. he might also think that halfling will try to steal something because they are so nimble and typically a good thief.
what character does afterwards is a roleplay aspect- he might sacrifice and burn or help and donate, which will then change innkeepers opinion. but the issue still stands- goodness is not presumed for all races, but they do have stereotypical/presumed traits. problem is that EVIL is that racial/cultural stereotype tied to drow and it needs to be addressed somehow for better roleplaying experience.
that can include very wide range of reactions- fear, prejudice, admiration, reserved behaviour etc. not just attack on sight.
from engine standpoint there is no problem at all to include drow as a subrace (im sure modders will if developers wont) and not delve too deep into what that means in FR world. we've seen it before.
In fact, I have openly stated in an earlier post that ingame reactions to Viconia are unrealistically mild. Drizzt, on the other hand, proves my point: he's a good drow, yet he'd had a very hard time making himself accepted upon coming to the surface. It is only after years of good deeds, and thanks to friends of good repute standing surety for him, that his reputation has made him accepted in the surface (and only where his reputation has reached).
Obviously at this point it's more of a thought experiement, because by now, you need to think about accounting for additional dialogue when encountering NPCs, perhaps a few more additional Elminster appearances, maybe an extra Drizzt appearance after meeting him at the Gnolls, etc, etc...but it would be an interesting re-imagining of the game, in my opinion
They don't kill her on the spot when the party leave underdark for interrogations matter. After the interrogation, when they see that the main char is their last resort, and even knowing that Viconia is a outcast, they demand to put her on the collar with a geas spell, to bound her.
Viconia survive out of trust, bound to the main char and to the elf mission with a spell that will kill her if any treason is made. They put their trust on the main char there, but... would they do that if main char was a drow? To justify that part of the game... can anyone think in a way to pass this point of the game as a drow?
If they would put drows in as a race option, they would definetly have to let some things slip by lorewise, or redo most of the conversations and quests for that race/subrace only, which is something that we really can't expect them to do or so I think. So in my opinion we either let this whole thing go, or accept that there will be some "gray areas" in the story.
The stats would also have to be a bit nerfed from the original D&D drow stats and we would have to loose some stuffs there too to make them less potent compared to other races.
With the mod my problem would be, that the discrepancies with the D&D universe would be most likely even more.
Just set Drow`s abilities to the state of balance with other races, put few new dialogue interaction to selected NPC, make 1 Drow item for Baldurs Gate 1 (for example a Ring that can turn Day into a Night for a few combat rounds ?? nothink big). If someone thinks Drows in Gb as an Main Char is crazy, just dont create it.
When I played BG for the firstime, I was ten years old. Now after 13 years, when I still love this game I really like to play Drow warrior and be like Drizzt Do`Urden and run down whole story
Jut put down prejudice and let the Rivers flow. We are not responsible for our origin(Race), but only for our desires and decisions.
Crazy ideas, no? But why? They're all underdark inhabitants, all of them come from inteligent races and have playable states.
Look, i like to have options on the game, i love the Valen mod of weimer, i liked kindred and solafein mods too. I already made playtroughs with ninja kit, priest of malar (if i'm not wrong) and a lot of other crazy kits from the TDD huge mod. But that's the point, wait for Mods to have this, if Beamdog even come with mods or DLCs that make those crazy i will not complain if they put that as opitional, non official or don't try to modify the playtrough because of those mods/DLCs.
When i played with valen i get a lot of inconsistence on the game, and that's natural (i just unninstall the mod in the playtroughs i will not have valen on the party) we can't edit the whole game to make accetable the presence of a vampire NPC on the party. It's for fun, but if we hav to change the whole history to imput those new options, that will surely prejudice the history of Baldur's Gate.
thank you for such a reply. Meaning of BG is more important for me rather than involving one new race.
So, it just looks like ile have to play an ordinary Elf with black skin and two scimitars in each hand. No big deal.
I dont know who will take a decision on this fact, but above all it must be good for the game itself.
Thanks for your explanation. You look like a man Who exactly know what he is talking about. But in love, you know..there are now space for sucht a thing like a pure wisdom
But what about idea of little quest wich will be available only if you play Black skined Elf and drows in some dark spot in CloakWood forest will make you a member of Drow`s family ?
Thx and with all respect, Grunge.
p.s : Sorry for my lame english.
p.p.s : Beholders being main char, doesn't seem to be nearly as epic as Drows.. no offens sir
I didn't get the idea for the mini quest on cloackwood frorest by the way.
Imagine for a moment that you play Elf main char and you have got black skin (base character setup during character creation), wich is including cool appearance anyway (
Then you will meet a groupe of Drows somewhere during your jurney and they specify the quest for you( if and only if your character satisfies the conditions of this ques...Elf,black color of Skin).It could be some kind of puzzle or logical rebus.. or to get special things from the list they gave you.
You will be namend like member of some kind of rare Drow family and verbally promoted to Drow after you finish this quest.
Then you can tell to your self : " What the hell it was ?" Group of drows are gone and you have a funny update in your Journal. Something like : " I was promote on drow...wow..what a cool day...for an even just a momemt i didnt think that there`s chance to finish this game and not to be a Drow
But ! They can help you in some fight in another chapter or you can obtain a tittle in front of your name like a reward for your help wich you gave them in the past.
For 3/18, Dest 8/20, Cost 7/17, Int 9/19, Sag 3/18, Car 6/16. (min/max at first level)
Modifiers: +2 Dest, +1 Int, -2 Car, -1 Cost
start with 50% magic resistance, +2% each new level (max 80%)
Infravision 27m
+2 saving throw from magic sources of any kind
macig skills: dancing lights, fire magic and dark (at 4° level have 3 new capacity: levitation, detect magic and identify alignment) [all 1xday]
etc ... my English is bad, sorry ...
Who knows the rules can controls.
If ppl insist in drows on the surface... a group hunting the outcast Viconia would apply better and the end of this meet is more malleable than a from nothing bump into a group of drows.
And by the way, how ppl can be so imbecile to disagree with my last post? I didn't raise any questions or possibilites there.. neither is an expression of my opinion. I just made an observation and that's all. 2 things there, i spoke of Sendai (of the five) and the bunny spawn. Both exist on the original content, if someone disagree with that just don't play the game, cos that's disagree with the original story itself.
This one however has my opinion, feel free everyone to disagree or not.
@AndreaColombo except for the Viconia justification...*cringes*
@Akerhon - starting with 50% magic resist up to 80%, coupled with additional magic saving throws, makes drow the most powerful race by far. Extremely far.
I guess for most gamers Viconia is easier to forgive 'cause her portrait is hot =P
(don't hate me for the joke ppl XD)!
No dreams, no imagination, no variance, no roleplaying.
Just imagine 6 elf females with black skin in one party
And as Tanthalas said : "Eh, don't give much importance to "disagrees"." Its Emo
No offense, none taken.
If elf has got a black skin, it doesnt mean that he has to be Drow instantly.
I was just kidding, guys!
And I never implied that sex with drows would, could or should be inherently bad LOL
I was just kidding, guys!