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- illegal abilities on NPCs - how do you feel about them?356 votes
- No - NPCs shouldn't have any abilities that I can't have with my character1.69%
- No - if the NPC is an illegal class combo (eg. elf cleric/mage)0.28%
- Yes - provided I don't think the abilities are too strong30.62%
- Yes - even if I think the abilities are strong62.64%
- -other-4.78%
Post edited by [Deleted User] on
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Comments
But I think its awesome to assign the occasional odd benefit to a character.
This is well in keeping with PNP tradition, but is so hard to translate into a computer game. Impossible really for the PC, but at least a few of the NPCs can have something a little different and special.
This is one of the things I very much like about Planescape: Torment, the very unique nature of the various NPCs (and indeed the PC as well). A floating skull might be a bit much for BG's setting, but I would love to be able to have something like an Ogre Barbarian NPC for example, massively strong and able to wield a two-handed weapon in one hand, but too large to fit into any armour. A gnome illusionist so specialised that he can only cast illusion spells, but all his spells are stronger/more advanced than normal, and he has a couple of unique ones to boot. Stuff like that.
I must admit that I still haven't tried Fallout. Shameful I know, it's been on my to-do list for ages, but somehow I never seem to get to actually doing that. Maybe when Fallout:EE comes out... :-).
I think part of the problem with Edwin's ability, apart from being rather overpowered (especially with his enormous drawback of not being able to cast *gasp* divination spells), is that it's rather arbitrary. There is no real backstory or flavour to it. That actually applies to most of the extra abilities/equipment, they're just kind of tacked on without any explanation. BG2 is quite a bit better in that regard. Jan Jansen's vast array of weird equipment is both useful and very flavourful.
At least in DnD 3/3.5 there's an explanation for it, and I bet ADnD has something similar. He's a red wizard of Thay and in 3/3.5 red wizard is a prestige class, which increases your spells per day at the cost of another forbidden spell school.
In BG 1/2 he gets the benefit of this simulated ability but not its downsides.
There are limits, though. Some benefits are just blatantly too powerful - Edwin is a prime example. While it does make sense for him to be a "super specialist" mage (as Red Wizards tend to be), the implementation is not quite balanced enough. I suspect that that the downsides associated with his proficiency were too difficult to code, and so he was just given his Super Imba Necklace of Doom as a compromise. Not very elegant, and a bit annoying.
As for illegal class/race combinations, those are usually far less dramatic of an issue as they might seem. In fact, it would have been cool to see more flavor there - Viconia as an actual Cleric of Shar, for example, or a quest line to make Mazzy an actual Paladin. Those aren't exactly big violations, and balance-wise don't usually pose much of a problem; especially in BG2, where some of the class bonuses (like shorty saves) have less of an impact.
and they are basicly always some dwarbacks of npc like aerie has low con
viconia low con
edwin low dex
mazzy is pretty medicore fighter
minsc is i think 6 stats short from perfect
etc. kensai/mage berserker/druid berserker/thief max stats paladins those are OP characters and those few npc "bonuses" are sometimes not even worth mentioning in terms of power level
i think the strongest is edwin and he has no drawbacks (almost)
Except halfings cannot be paladins, ever. They can aspire to the ideal, but can never actually be the class itself which is a uniquely human convention.
Coran's mastery in bows is illegal and should be removed (it's enough benefit that's he's gotten one of the rare and precious dex manuals at some point before our meeting).
Edwin was a little more balanced when his necklace only gave bonus spells to levels 1 and 2. When they added them to 3+ later, that was too much. (especially since Conjurors are much more powerful in BG then they should be due to getting access to Evocation, which is their primary opposed school in PnP due to divination being too important for a mage to function at all to fully lose access to (they're only disallowed spells 5th and above, which by core books is 3 total spells lost...only truesight being remotely useful).
Aerie is less of a concern since she's is valid for her real sub-race.
Eldoth's poison arrow ability is fine. If NCP were implemented, anyone could learn to make them (though those with rogue pool access could so for normal proficiency cost).
Viconia is fine as is class-wise. Her lack of bonuses just means she's a generic cleric of shar, instead of a Mythos Priest. Her magic resistance though needs to go. Mechanically it should be 0 given how long she's by her own admission, been away from the Underdark. It only takes 3 1/2 months to completely remove a drow's magic resistance. And takes an equal amount of time spent in the Underdark to return to full strength. (10% per week, either way). (or implement the drow's innate 20% experience penalty, that they have at all times even if they've lost all their special abilities from faeress withdrawal).
Anomen though has no excuse. He is completely illegal. Even if he passes his knight test he STILL doesn't have enough Wisdom to dual-class to a cleric. And should actually has a 5% spell failure penalty due to having 12 wisdom (divine magic requires 13+ to have no failure chance).
Minsc at least has the excuse that his reduced wisdom is result of his head-wound after the fact (though he should still have a 20% divine spell failure penalty for low wisdom)...Anomen has no such excuse.
Faldorn is fine, and is actually closer to working like a druid should then the friggin player is. Druids are supposed to start getting animal followers at level 1 (but is capped to total HD no higher then their druid level).
@10thlich
Red wizards do not get bonus spells. The only bonus spells they get are the +1 per spell level from being a specialist mage, which is required to be a red wizard.
Depending on the edition they either have harder save DC+caster level (3.0), or just a flat +caster level bonus (3.5). Beyond that, they get a up to +4 save bonus vs spells of their school used against them, and the ability to use circle magic. And as a penalty they lose an extra school and just like normal opposed school rules, CANNOT choose divination because it's essential to function as a mage. Non-diviner specialists lose a total of 3 schools to be red wizards (2 from specialization, 1 from RW), while diviners only lose 2 (1 from specialization, 1 from RW).
I don't find any of their abilities ( or multi class ) out of place.
Like others have said it is more about playing a story, then wondering why a fighter has a berserker ability ( Which I never used ) Or why a wingless elf can be an " illegal" class..
It just adds to the flavor.
It's Faerun...anything is possible,
The most clear example of this is Minsc. He's a ranger, and rangers aren't supposed to berserk. However, he's also a nutjob who enjoys killing for the greater good, and his ability to berserk reflect that. Even if you were to never activate this ability, having it there enhances the value of Minsc as a character. It has more-or-less the same effect as having Boo in the quick-slot.
A lesser, but also well-known example of this is Edwin. Edwin is a mage constantly claiming both openly and to himself that he superior to every being in the history of the universe. Of course, having someone start that powerful would ruin game balance quickly. What the developers did was give him excellent primary attributes and bonus spells. Having all of this showcases his potential to be powerful, and having him join you allows him to progress to be powerful later on (both in BG and BG2).
Other examples of this include Viconia (MR from race), Aerie (Class + Religion from Quayle), Alora (Lucky Charm suits personality), and Mazzy (Paladin-ish skills).
There are examples that don't fit, such as Kagain, arguably Tiax and arguably Coran. However, a large number of characters with these special abilities and 'illegal' attributes do have some kind of reason for these abilities that enhances their character. Sometimes, the character only having an ability adds something, even if the ability isn't useful to you.
Other stuff...whatever~ In Icewind Dale, I like to give my characters some speshul tail-ents, courtesy editors.
Plus, even if we want to give some extra spells to an NPC, i really think the devs were a bit too generous on Edwin especially.
You know, his special amulet / ring (i don't remember) is so powerful that even magical items of TOB are weaker in this regard. And in "my" ADD rules, no Red Wizard can have so many spells, especially when they're level 1.
As a matter of fact, i never take him because i really feel like using some cheat when i'm using him.
EDIT : hmm, seems like i should have voted "Yes - provided the abilities aren't too strong"... I'm really ok with a few special abilities, and actually would like to see more of them, as long as they're not unbalanced.