Do you want all the bugs/exploits/glitches fixed forever and for good? Or not? And why?

DeathKnight

Some people use to exploit their games hard. Be it an xp loophole, the export-import trick, the item duplication, the money trick, the endless summoned army in 1, the 5xplanetars in 2, whatever used to exist and make certain players happy and most modern players want fixed, nerfed and obliterated. Some people will go so far as to avoid getting the game, if too many fixes are involved, especially to things that they liked back in the day, or made their strategies more varied and powerful (like the planetar army).

So, out of curiosity, i want to make a poll. Numbers do not lie. We have two teams; one is the MMO/PnP mindset, nerf/balance/limit everything, and the other the powergamers/cheesy gamers/people who want cheat-like things without actually cheating. Choose sides and please, by all means, bother to drop a line or two, in order to present your opinion. Also, if you are hardcore, mention first and foremost. By hardcore, i mean those who will not buy the upcoming game if certain things get fixed, or those who will not buy the upcoming game if certain things DON'T get fixed. Fight!

O_Bruce

There is no answer that could be considered adequate reflection of my opinion on the matter. On the one hand, I DO want exploits and bugs to be gone, but on the other hand, I'm not PnP purist and I understand that some things had to be changed in order to adapt DnD rules to a videogame.

As to why I want bugs and exploits to be completely removed... Bugs, well, that's obvious - I want this game to work as intended. About exploits and such - I hate cheats. I either play fair or don't play at all. While many people may consider exploits fun, I see very little difference between using exploits and cheating via shadowkeeper or console.

Lord_Tansheron

I think your options are too narrow a view on a far too complex issue. Outright bugs are one thing, but many of those "exploits" you are talking about are difficult to objectively classify. It's the entire "cheese" discussion all over again; some people argue for them, some against them, some people see them as logical consequences of the game mechanics, some as unintentional side-effects. If it was easy to decide on them one way or another, they would have been dealt with ages ago. Then there's also the problem that some of the issues are the result of hardcoded limitations that are very difficult to fix without breaking something else, and in any way are probably not worth the time investment it would take just to get rid of something that affects perhaps 1% of people in 1% of scenarios.

Keep in mind that this game is a single player game first and foremost. "Balance" is something highly subjective, especially for fringe cases. In a normal playthrough, almost none of the problematic issues will ever crop up, they are limited to highly specific and often quite advanced scenarios. Not that that makes them less important per se, just less of a priority.

And in the end, leaving players with a responsibility to play "fairly" is also a good thing. You don't have competitive multiplayer to worry about, and so you can trust people to moderate their own gameplay. If they want to deprive themselves of an adequately challenging experience, then that is their mistake to make. I believe that letting people find out on their own just how boring it is to re-import your character ten times until you start BG1 with a lvl40 25/25/25/25/25/25 monster is a very important lesson, doubly so in times where hand-holding and spoon-feeding in the games industry is rampant. Encourage people to play games for the sake of playing them, not beating them! Make them realize that the more difficult the challenge, the more rewarding it is to overcome them - and vice versa, the easier things get, the more pointless they are.

CutlassJack

Bugs and Exploits aren't really the same thing. But if fixing one removed the other, I'd have no issue with it. Its not like the games can't be won without them. Easilly.

And wanting bugs and glitches fixed isn't directly related to how close the game resembles the PnP rules. Any connection is coincidental.

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elminster

Out of the available options this option was the one that closest represented my opinion.

Mathmick

There are massive abusive/unintended cases that have been around for ages now. Whether people like them or not, a number of them are part of the game now. Ranger/Cleric is the most well-known example.

Glitches and bugs that make the game less playable, for example crashes or spells dealing less damage than they should, should ALWAYS be fixed without exception.

Mortianna

If I'm going to play a D&D computer game, I want it to adhere to PnP rules to the furthest extent they can be implemented.

CamDawg

DeathKnight said:

We have two teams; one is the MMO/PnP mindset, nerf/balance/limit everything, and the other the powergamers/cheesy gamers/people who want cheat-like things without actually cheating.

"Crikey! Look at this beaut! Here we see, in its natural environment, the false dichotomy.

I always love these threads. Exploits are bugs--the difference between using an exploit and the CLUAConsole is that you can rationalize one and not the other.

If we close every exploit in the game, you'll always have the console.

CamDawg

Oh, and a bonus!

DeathKnight said:

Yes! By all means, i want ALL bugs/exploits/glitches gone forever and for good! And the EEs to be an exact PnP rules duplicate!

The Infinity Engine games were not, are not, and will never be PnP.

ZanathKariashi

I'd love the core game to be as close to PnP as possible, since that means people that want to mod the game to their tastes will have ALL the means to do so.


Due to so many glitches and bugs being hard-coded or just REALLY difficult to work around as implemented, the purists are the ones most disadvantaged by the current implementation of the rule-set, since there simply aren't any means to workaround it, unless the developers can open stuff up further.

deltago

Wow, talk about a black and white options with no grey area. Neutrality never gets any love.

My preferred option would of been:

"Close any existing exploits and bugs to the degree the game was meant to be played."

TJ_Hooker

I don't care, with the exception of exploits that have to be actively avoided (or are unavoidable altogether). Those should be fixed. But other than that they don't bother me. I don't use them myself, but I can understand why people do.

Palanthis

Is seems they'll fix a lot of exploits (like the inventory import on BG2EE start by pausing the game) and i think it's good.
I mean, anyone can find a way to cheat if he wants just by playing whith Shadowkeeper or some other software. So the game doesn't need to contain exploits in the first place.

ElectricMonk

"Yes! By all means, i want ALL bugs/exploits/glitches gone forever and for good!"
Yes to this -- I expect the devs to do what they can to remove bugs, obviously.

"And the EEs to be an exact PnP rules duplicate!"
I certainly wouldn't mind the BG games being closer to PnP, but I definitely don't expect the devs to do this.

The original developers made design decisions to deviate from PnP rules, so that's the game, deviations from PnP and bugs are two totally different things (so this option, although closest to my opinion, isn't very good). Leave PnP implementations to the modders.

AstroBryGuy

ZanathKariashi said:

I'd love the core game to be as close to PnP as possible, since that means people that want to mod the game to their tastes will have ALL the means to do so.


Due to so many glitches and bugs being hard-coded or just REALLY difficult to work around as implemented, the purists are the ones most disadvantaged by the current implementation of the rule-set, since there simply aren't any means to workaround it, unless the developers can open stuff up further.

That raises the question - what does "as close to PnP as possible" mean? Does that mean getting rid of any rule or spell not in the "core rules," i.e., PHB + DMG? Once you start including material from the "splatbooks," I think all bets are off for even being able to judge what's "close" to PnP, since it now depends on which optional rules you include.

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shawne

Exploits and bugs should be fixed; no need for PnP because the game is not PnP. If it's consistent with its own ruleset, that's enough for me.

EDIT: Also, holy crap, @ZanathKariashi, did you miss the part where BG is a CRPG and not actually a tabletop game?

Night_Watch

do easter eggs (ring of wizardry at FAI, ankheg plate at Nashkel, etc.) count as exploits? b/c other than that I don't really use any of that stuff. ignorance is bliss XD

by the way, i want my army of summoned monsters back please. how else am i going to make war against the infinity swarm of the Flaming Fist? -.-

AstroBryGuy

Shandyr said:

@AstroBryGuy

"As close to PnP as possible" includes, but is not restricted to, this:

...

And after reading through all of this, take a look at what @CamDawg said:

CamDawg said:

The Infinity Engine games were not, are not, and will never be PnP.

Yes, I'm perfectly aware of the quote from CamDawg. That's actually part of the point. This isn't PnP, and even if it were, you can spend weeks arguing which optional rules should/should not be implemented in a game. Plus, many of the rules introduced in the splatbooks are horribly unbalanced, or only balanced by RPing and DM-restraint.

For example, look at weapon mastery. By PnP rules, it shouldn't be achievable until at least 5th level (not 3rd), and it's supposed to require a quest to find a grand master to train you (which according to the C&T book, could take *years*). Then the PC needs to take several months to train (the C&T book specifically says the PC should "sit out" for 1-2 adventures). Basically, its supposed to be hard to become a grand master, but in BG2/EE, mastery is implemented as "Oh, I'm 9th level, time to become take a 5th pip in long swords." So, what's "closer" to PnP? Giving all the bonuses of weapon mastery without making it hard to get them, or toning down the benefits to account for the lack of difficulty?

I don't see the need to be slavish just because it's "a PnP rule" - especially when the rules are from a splatbook.

shawne

@Night_Watch: Baeloth is technically an easter egg, so probably not.

CoM_Solaufein

Its not a bug, its a feature.

Night_Watch

@shawne oh goodie. i used to grab the evermemory to spam magic missiles. now i use it to spam wild surges. just for that BG has achieved a new level of awesome for me

i hope Baeloth is available for BG2 (even if it's just for the lols.) i haven't had a chance to play with him yet but he was amusing in the black pits.

Permidion_Stark

I wasn't aware of most of the exploits until they were listed in the poll so I think it is fair to say that it has never bothered me that they are there.

Padenton

I define 'exploit' as a bug/glitch that does not hinder the player and is unlikely to be accidentally activated. If people want to use an exploit to enjoy the game they want to, by all means, go for it. For example, I love the save-your-items exploit at the very beginning of BG2. Yeah, you'll get a lot of gear by the end of the first dungeon that makes up for losing all your BG1 items, but there are still a few good gems I like to keep.

So...Leave the exploits(or add an option to enable them), strive to make the game otherwise bug-free.

There's no way to make such a large game completely bug-free, by the way. Let's not perpetuate the delusion that there is. They could have developers examining every line of code and there would still be bugs.

ChildofBhaal599

I do miss spending entire spell levels on summon spells and sending my forces at sarevok as the laptop I used at the time lagged to my massive army

Night_Watch

ChildofBhaal599 said:

I do miss spending entire spell levels on summon spells and sending my forces at sarevok as the laptop I used at the time lagged to my massive army

i did that except against the phoenix guards. i think my desktop crashed (yes, it wasn't a very good one) =p

ChildofBhaal599

Night_Watch said:

ChildofBhaal599 said:

I do miss spending entire spell levels on summon spells and sending my forces at sarevok as the laptop I used at the time lagged to my massive army

i did that except against the phoenix guards. i think my desktop crashed (yes, it wasn't a very good one) =p

yes at least my laptop was moderate at gaming but I was serious about my armies

taltamir

The poll is just awful.
It ties the opinion about exploits to pnp puritanism, it only gives extreme options (exploits are good vs gone forever, which I assume means remove them and introduce special anti cheat code which is lame), and the OP mixes up bug exploits and legitimate strategies (import-export multiplayer based duping is cheating, and not the same as having an army of summons)

Personally, I want exploits to be optionally gone. that is, if you think they make the game more fun you could reenable them. I don't think PnP accuracy is in any way shape or form related to it.

Durenas

It should be done only on a case-by-case basis.

blackchimes

This. The game's plenty easy without resorting to outright exploits.