I also believe that developers should have the right to make that choice for themselves, but I didn't think anyone would say, "Hey, developers! You should use DRM to protect your stuff! Gamers can't be trusted!"
I'm sure it goes deeper than that, but I'm surprised to hear it.
Why? Clearly, they can't because many of them steal.
Not to implie anything but from your previous comments you seem to be the exact type of person that CAN'T be trusted.
In case I'm not being trolled... Ouch. Do I need to take screenshots of my GOG, Gamers Gate, Amazon and Steam game pages? I can also stack all my box video games, music library and movie library on the dining room table and take some pictures. Plus there is the number of games I backed on Kickstarter to add to the count. Well maybe not stack everything on the dining room table, my wife would kill me. It's something like 4 boxes of VHS, 6 boxes of DVDs, 3 or 4 boxes of CDs, a drawer full of Blu Ray movies, a drawer full of PS2 and PS3 games.
Edit - I forgot to add the number of collector editions that I keep in a dresser cabinet.
As for here, if BGEE goes DRM free before release, I'll pre-order. Beamdog will have my money. It's not like DRM works anyway.
@ST4TICStriker This line of debate will end badly. I'd rather talk about gun control than which of us is the most trustworthy. If GOG gets this game I will buy it again, just like I bought Torchlight again. No DRM generates sales too. It doesn't just cost sales. I will amend my previous statement to say that I have never met someone who wants DRM. Some people are willing to accept it in varying levels. But I've never launched a game and thought, "Man I wish this game had a code wheel like they did back in the day!" I don't even know what DMR is so I won't speak to that issue.
Your argument that DRM free games are only feasible for games that no one wants is disputed by the results of the Project Eternity funding. That seems to be a game that many people want and is going to use the mechanism that I think is also perfect for BG:EE. Not even Hasbro can turn an entirely blind eye to the success over there. Especially when this very property is a big part of that success.
Actually, there's been no success yet. Project Eternity sounds like a great thing, but if people invest a couple million dollars in it, and they can't sell enough to make a profit, none of it will matter. Besides, DRM-free wasn't announced before the Kickstarter campaign began, so it's not like the decision to go DRM-free caused all that money to flow. In fact, it caused virtually none of it to flow as the insanely fast funding has slowed quite a bit. While I have no doubt there are people supporting the game in part because it has a DRM-free option, it isn't the driving factor, and we will have to wait to see the quality of the game they deliver and how well it sells to judge anything about the effect DRM has on it.
The more I think about this, the more I find that the comments like "Why should I be treated like a pirate?" sounds suspiciously like, "Why can't I get free stuff too?" There will always be some purists who refuse to buy any game that includes DRM while the vast majority of gamers will put up with it because it's a necessary evil. I do not believe that the vast majority of pirates and crackers do so because they are frustrated with DRM or they have some philosophical objection. They do it because it's more convenient and cheaper to steal than to not. I had left my car doors unlocked one night and the next morning, I'd had my CD player stolen. One night, and somebody walked by, saw my doors were unlocked, and stole my CD player. They could have broken into any car in the parking lot, but they chose mine because I left my doors unlocked, so they didn't have to break a window or jimmy a lock. It was simply easier.
If I leave my car in a garage to have work done, and I arrive after closing to pick it up, and the doors are locked so that I can not get my car, I don't ask, "Hey, why are you treating me like a criminal?" I showed up after hours and expected to retrieve my property. What if I made a song and sold it as an .MP3, then some hacker stole it and posted it on a website and gave it away for free. So now, I have to protect my song with DRM, and that means everyone can only own one copy, so that people don't rip me off for my work. I'm not punishing legitimate buyers of my work; I'm protecting the integrity of my work and just asking for verification that you paid for it. Is that really so much to ask?
@vortican - The garage example is ludicrous. The door is locked after hours to protect them and your car from theft. Plus you know the hours they are open for business. Would you buy a game that you were only allowed to play while the publisher is open during business hours to watch their DRM servers? Most companies are 9 to 5. That's when I work also. As for your CD player, I'm sorry you were robbed, but I didn't do it. I also would have not done it, even if I noticed your car was unlocked. I probably would not have even noticed an unlocked car though, since I have no reason to look for one. At the same time, going through high school, I know a lot of cars were broken into, even cars that were locked or with alarm systems. It seemed like 1 out of 20 kids was trying to sell a radar detector or car stereo. Lock your doors, people are thieves. People that have given you money are customers.
I don't want stuff for free, that's why I'm not a pirate. Well, actually I do like free stuff too. There are some great games, music, and videos out there that are completely free. One of my favorite music artists released all his work for free. Some are closed source, and some are even open source.
As for Project Eternity. People have been asking for DRM free since it launched. There are a lot of comments requesting it, several comments saying they will pull their pledge before it's over if DRM free is not offered, and a lot of discussion about the FAQ. The FAQ stated clearly that Steam is definitely an option, but they were still currently looking into other options. Obsidian was obviously doing that, because I doubt it took only a couple of hours to work out the entire PE on GOG deal. Also, many people have claimed to raise their pledge now that a DRM free version is available. I will be upping my pledge also, I'm just waiting until I get home to review all the options.
@vortican - The garage example is ludicrous. The door is locked after hours to protect them and your car from theft. Plus you know the hours they are open for business. Would you buy a game that you were only allowed to play while the publisher is open during business hours to watch their DRM servers? Most companies are 9 to 5. That's when I work also.
But Jalister, you and others have previously objected to a one-time installation check. ONE TIME. Not during business hours and it doesn't even prevent you from PLAYING the game, only installing it. My point is that some limits are inherent when you're dealing with private property, which applies to cars, CD players, and video games. The fact that the latter can be copied easily changes nothing. In a sense, anyone who plays MMOs already is only "allowed" to play during designated hours. Those hours are "as long as the servers are up" but every business has downtime, even when it's unexpected. Sometimes it's necessary to take servers down to update them at regular intervals. Asking for unfettered, permanent access to a game, without sufficient protection or ability to prove that you've paid for it... I don't see why a business should be expected to do that.
As for your CD player, I'm sorry you were robbed, but I didn't do it. I also would have not done it, even if I noticed your car was unlocked. I probably would not have even noticed an unlocked car though, since I have no reason to look for one. At the same time, going through high school, I know a lot of cars were broken into, even cars that were locked or with alarm systems. It seemed like 1 out of 20 kids was trying to sell a radar detector or car stereo. Lock your doors, people are thieves. People that have given you money are customers.
My point is that when developers sell a game, they don't know you from a hole in the head. The key difference here is that you can't copy my car and give it to someone else. You CAN, and you might, copy the game, and it might fall into someone else's hands. You're being given a license to use a product, not a product itself, so a developer must somehow prevent you from doing that. We haven't yet developed a foolproof technology to satisfy your desire to be able to control what you do with the product but at the same time prevent you from letting it get where it's not supposed to go. I don't see how that's possible (aside from the self-encryption/modification proposal I made previously), without some sort of external verification procedure, yet you're asking to be trusted. Why in the world should businesses trust complete strangers to be good boys and girls when complete strangers are stealing cars, CD players, and video games!? IT'S A WORLD GONE MAD, JALISTER! THIEVES EVERYWHERE!
I don't want stuff for free, that's why I'm not a pirate. Well, actually I do like free stuff too. There are some great games, music, and videos out there that are completely free. One of my favorite music artists released all his work for free. Some are closed source, and some are even open source.
Sure I like free stuff too, but I don't turn non-free stuff into free stuff just because I can, or because I'm too cheap to pay for non-free stuff. I don't take advantage of those opportunities either, but because we can't know the moral fiber of every individual, most people understand that we have to live with certain controls and restrictions.
As for Project Eternity. People have been asking for DRM free since it launched. There are a lot of comments requesting it, several comments saying they will pull their pledge before it's over if DRM free is not offered, and a lot of discussion about the FAQ. The FAQ stated clearly that Steam is definitely an option, but they were still currently looking into other options. Obsidian was obviously doing that, because I doubt it took only a couple of hours to work out the entire PE on GOG deal. Also, many people have claimed to raise their pledge now that a DRM free version is available. I will be upping my pledge also, I'm just waiting until I get home to review all the options.
Sure, I get all that. My point was that pointing to Project Eternity as yet another success story for DRM-free games is premature.
@Vortican Yes, it is too much to ask. The question isn't about whether or not you have the right to include DRM. You do have that right. The question is whether the market will appreciate your decision. You brought up music so it is fair to point out that iTunes dropped DRM on their MP3 sales and Amazon never used it. Because they determined that the market wanted DRM free and it was more profitable that way. Apple didn't change because they are nice people. And I really don't believe that freedom is a big part of their user experience.
The game marketplace is crowded. Non-DRM is a great way to differentiate yourself and stand out in the crowd. Not to mention the fact that it opens up new markets. GOG is one of them and the Jalister crowd is another. I may not be willing to compromise everytime so I can be included as another potential market. I am of course assuming that I am not a unique consumer.
I never said piracy doesn't exist. I said that it is irrelevant to releases like this one. Your car analogy is appropriate here. Would you consider adding a security system to your car that absolutely guaranteed it would never be broken into again if it also had a five percent chance of permanently locking you out of the car? I doubt that system would sell very well.
But those controls and restrictions don't work. Like I have said before, if DRM actually worked, I might think differently.
There are several MMOs that have now been emulated well enough to please a large population of players. World of Warcraft, being the most popular MMO, has many very functional emulators out there. Ultima Online, being the oldest MMO, has several very functional emulators out there. You can even design your own worlds in the UO emulators now. Everquest's emulator is also extremely advanced. Everquest 2's emulator is making good progress now.
Even defunct MMOs that have gone offline are in the works. Star Wars Galaxies highly functional. Matrix Online is moving slowly, but they have now gotten pass some of the problems and are progressing.
People are smart, and they are not all employed by developers and publishers. Anything can be accomplished today.
In case I'm not being trolled... Ouch. Do I need to take screenshots of my GOG, Gamers Gate, Amazon and Steam game pages? I can also stack all my box video games, music library and movie library on the dining room table and take some pictures. Plus there is the number of games I backed on Kickstarter to add to the count. Well maybe not stack everything on the dining room table, my wife would kill me. It's something like 4 boxes of VHS, 6 boxes of DVDs, 3 or 4 boxes of CDs, a drawer full of Blu Ray movies, a drawer full of PS2 and PS3 games.
Owning games does not stop you pirating.....
Sorry if I caused offence. I was mearly refering to what you said about pirating games that have DRM. The way you said it sounded like you supported it, but clearly I read it wrong and commented on somthing that you didn't say or mean. So I'm sorry and take it back.
I hope this discussion can continue but I think I may be a bit out of my depth.
@Vortican Yes, it is too much to ask. The question isn't about whether or not you have the right to include DRM. You do have that right. The question is whether the market will appreciate your decision. You brought up music so it is fair to point out that iTunes dropped DRM on their MP3 sales and Amazon never used it. Because they determined that the market wanted DRM free and it was more profitable that way. Apple didn't change because they are nice people. And I really don't believe that freedom is a big part of their user experience.
The game marketplace is crowded. Non-DRM is a great way to differentiate yourself and stand out in the crowd. Not to mention the fact that it opens up new markets. GOG is one of them and the Jalister crowd is another. I may not be willing to compromise everytime so I can be included as another potential market. I am of course assuming that I am not a unique consumer.
Sure, and I agree that DRM-less music works partly because the physical market no longer makes much sense for that product. We can't assume that the two markets are identical, although they do have similarities, but there are differences in resources invested and costs which we've previously discussed, some of which makes DRM in many cases necessary, if not foolproof.
Would you consider adding a security system to your car that absolutely guaranteed it would never be broken into again if it also had a five percent chance of permanently locking you out of the car? I doubt that system would sell very well.
Ahhhh but games with DRM DO sell well, better than DRM-free games. Besides, with the reliability of internet connections now, for most people the chances of them getting locked out of their game because of a DRM failure is far below 5%. It's tiny. BG:EE's installation check promises an infinitesimal chance of ever being locked out of game. I also don't think the chance of that happening is anywhere near 5% in most situations even with the DRM schemes out there now.
What I find comforting is that the greatness of the unregulated marketplace works all these things out in the end to the satisfaction of most people. Our discussions here are adding to that debate and influence the decision that publishers make in small ways but when taken in the aggregate, ultimately lead to the best solutions available. As with most things, I don't think you'll ever see a day where a majority of publishers allow DRM-free experiences, but I think they will be working on more effective and unobtrusive DRM schemes that will hopefully satisfy the expectations of players.
No problem ST4TICStriker, there is a lot of text in this thread, and misunderstandings are easy. Maybe it was something I said about people pirating software because of DRM. The pirates justify it, I don't. I can understand the reasoning, but I don't justify it.
Maybe not 5%, but still enough people to be heard, and possibly dissuade others from buying. The number of negative comments, and the low star rating says a lot. It also didn't prevent millions of copies from being pirated.
@Vortican Let's keep the car analogy going. If your DRM security system was installed by Chevrolet and maintained by them I agree that five percent is probably a high number for failure rate. But if you got a similar system from Saab I think the number is much higher. GM almost went under a few years back. I doubt Beamdog would get a bailout from the government. You are still only considering situations where those servers are online. I think a fourteen year old property very much warrants consideration that the game will outlive the service. I want a perpetual license for twenty bucks, not a time limited one. And I'm aware of what Trent has said regarding a patch, but recent events prove my point that just because he said it doesn't make it a written in stone fact.
On a side note, I do appreciate your ongoing debate. It seems the rest of the pro-DRM crowd has left the building. I don't know if that is a result of delay angst or a lack of arguments. I disagree with many of your points, but the discourse is intelligent and fun!
I'm working on a Windows 7 computer right now. Windows activation is broken. It's an HP using HP media, so it should be self activating by checking the BIOS. Some times it works, and other times it doesn't. So here is my customer, with legally purchased software installed on the computer he purchased it with. Now he has to pay the company I work for to resolve the DRM problems that he should not be having. I doubt the pirated version has this problem. What is the acceptable percentage of problems you can give your paying customer because of DRM? In my opinion, ZERO. And if it does break, the publisher or developer should eat the costs of fixing it. The product is not working because of something the publisher decided to throw into the program to protect it. Isn't Windows one of, if not the most, pirated pieces of software?
@Jalister That is a somewhat flawed comparison. MS uses their activation to make sure corporations pay for the software. They certainly prefer consumers to pay as well. But the real target is the business crowd where the money is at. Most businesses of any size at all will not intentionally install cracked software for security reasons. And there are organizations offering bounties on the ones foolish enough to warez Windows/Office/Adobe.
Games are another animal entirely. And within that industry I think this type of game inhabits an even smaller niche. This game does not need DRM.
Erhhh...... right DRM. (I'm take a stab in the dark and start typing random stuff and call it a opinion)
DRM for non AAA Games?
I notice that some people on here believe that non AAA games should have no DRM. (If I'm reading correctly)
So people here believe that and indies and small companys have no right to protect there own creations and that the customer should be allowed to do what ever they want with their creations, including sharing them online, while AAA tittles should be allowed to take measures to try and stop this?
I may not fully understand this but that doesn't seem right to me
Erhhh...... right DRM. (I'm take a stab in the dark and start typing random stuff and call it a opinion)
DRM for non AAA Games?
I notice that some people on here believe that non AAA games should have no DRM. (If I'm reading correctly)
So people here believe that and indies and small companys have no right to protect there own creations and that the customer should be allowed to do what ever they want with their creations, including sharing them online, while AAA tittles should be allowed to take measures to try and stop this?
I may not fully understand this but that doesn't seem right to me
The point that's being made is that indie games are operating under a much smaller level of financial risk, and are often not under the thumb of a big publisher that will force them to do something even if the consumer doesn't like it.
This allows an indie developer to listen to fans clamoring for DRM-free games, which is a privilege that some developers don't have by virtue of their being under the thumb of a contract with a larger publisher.
It's kind of the opposite of "have no right to protect", actually. It's more, "has freedom based on autonomy to listen to what the fans actually want and be able to give it to them, if they so choose." What the fans want is more freedom with their games. An indie developer is in more of a position to do just that.
@ST4TICStriker No one is saying they don't have the right to use DRM. They also have the right to cover themselves in marshmallow and yell racial epithets at people on the street. My point is that they should not do either of these things. Just because you have the right to do something doesn't make it a good idea. I believe that not using DRM will lead to more profit.
So people here believe that and indies and small companys have no right to protect there own creations and that the customer should be allowed to do what ever they want with their creations, including sharing them online, while AAA tittles should be allowed to take measures to try and stop this?
That is not what I believe. I fully disagree with copying games for friends or sharing the files online. Everyone knows that copying what you paid for is wrong. It's like everyone knows smoking is bad for you, yet so many keep doing it.
What I do believe is that I should be allowed to use what I paid for, without having to deal with activation, or risk losing my software when a company goes under or decides to shutdown servers. I believe I should be allowed to backup my software so I will have it if my original gets destroyed.
DRM is one way people know games should not be copied, yet millions are still doing it. Even on AAA titles it's worthless. So maybe little Johnny can't copy Mass Effect 4 for his friend Bobby. I don't think those little friendly copies are what is hurting the gaming industry. What is hurting the industry, if it is actually hurting, is the amoral people that feel they are above the rules, or feel entitled, or that just don't care and pirate instead of buying. They are doing it whether DRM is there or not, because DRM is useless, except to prevent second hand sales. AAA companies spend lots of money to develop or buy and support DRM schemes that are useless. If I were a publisher using SecuROM, I would have demanded my money back from Sony as soon as I saw my game was cracked within hours of release. There are uncountable numbers of games cracked within one day, and there is also the other problem. Spore caused so many problems on the day of release with broken DRM, that their support staff was most likely seriously stressed. That also probably hurt future sales.
@darrenkuo - No more DLCs? Now that is an idea I can stand by. Let's dump the overpriced, underwhelming DLC, and bring back the traditional, fulfilling expansion packs.
@darrenkuo - No more DLCs? Now that is an idea I can stand by. Let's dump the overpriced, underwhelming DLC, and bring back the traditional, fulfilling expansion packs.
Overhaul had announced there are free / paid DLCs after BG-EE been released ,
But i just feel if they can't make profit through the game , i don't think there are many offical DLCs can be avaiable in the future.
I guess I should have been clearer. I like free DLC, but most of the paid DLC have a very poor cost/worth ratio. Expansion packs offered a lot for the money they cost. Plus it's much easier to keep track of adding a full expansion pack, then to have to deal with getting all the little DLC. Plus a lot of the DLC is stuff adding during game play, which is missed if you already finished. Expansion packs like Diablo 2 Lord of Destruction are nice because you can just jump in at the end of the main game, and continue on.
AAA companies spend lots of money to develop or buy and support DRM schemes that are useless. If I were a publisher using SecuROM, I would have demanded my money back from Sony as soon as I saw my game was cracked within hours of release. There are uncountable numbers of games cracked within one day, and there is also the other problem. Spore caused so many problems on the day of release with broken DRM, that their support staff was most likely seriously stressed. That also probably hurt future sales.
Sure it did, but that's not the fault of the companies using that DRM; it's the fault of those who designed the poor DRM that didn't secure their product. I totally agree that any company employing a DRM that's been cracked that closely to release should be screaming their lungs out at the company that developed that DRM and convinced them to use it.
The problem is, you're demanding unfettered access to the game when the easiest DRM to use is product activation. Standalone DRM that works and is difficult to circumvent is a tough nut to crack, but just because it's difficult doesn't mean companies should stop trying, give up, let everyone pirate their products and expect their sales to increase. If someone kept stealing from your house again and again and again, no matter how complex a lock you put on your door, would you eventually just unlock your door and let them in whenever they want? Hell no; you'd be hiring private security or standing outside your door with a shotgun. Granted, that's the part that pisses off end users who have legally paid for the product, but that's the position some companies find themselves in. They've got to do something and they don't have the tools right now to do it right. That doesn't mean their desire to protect themselves is wrong. They just don't have the right lock for their door yet.
Eventually, I'm sure a way will be found to allow users the kind of access they expect to receive, have full control over their software to install it legally according to the terms of the license, and still prevent those who haven't paid from getting access to it. Until then though, I don't think encouraging companies to go DRM-free is a good idea. I would rather encourage stuff like the free-to-play model, which has the potential to solve this problem but in a different way.
@vortican - I actually dislike the free-to-play model, and I have never really enjoyed a game that uses it. EQ2 does have a free-to-play option, but I don't use it. I prefer to pay a monthly sub, rather than deal with microtransactions to get features.
As you said, the lock is broken. It lets anyone in that doesn't pay, and it harasses those that do pay, in some cases locking the payer out. The DRM is not preventing their product from being taken. It harasses the legal owners, it illegally prevents second hand sales, and it's also used as a mechanism for overpriced DLC. What is so hard to understand that 4,000,000 illegal copies shows that the DRM used was worthless? Or that your awesome DRM lasted 2 hours before being cracked? Why is it that I have heard plenty of stories of people playing a pirated copy before a legal owner was able to resolve DRM problems to get the game working?
DRM and DLC are two things that are doing more harm to gaming instead of helping it.
Jalister, the reason you're hearing those stories is because you're plugged into the scene, playing the games with the same people who are stealing them. There are millions of people who buy the games right off the shelf at the store, never even think about the DRM and just click buttons until their games are installed and ready to play. They don't give a damn about DRM and it does prevent them from loaning out their copies. If they were asked to install it on another computer by some friend of theirs, those people will not even bother (because they know it won't work) or they'll try and when they find it doesn't work, they'll shrug and say, "Oh well." It's not a big deal to most of the buyers of those games, especially consoles, where the market for pirates is even smaller. Sure, there are plenty of stories out there. That doesn't mean DRM is worthless at all. Nobody denied that there are problems with the DRM currently in use, but even those problems haven't prevented studios from making money, even if they have the tightest DRM in existence. It isn't like UBI and Blizzard aren't rolling in money even though people detest their DRM. Yeah, the loudmouths get on the internets and bitch and moan until they relent and take out the horrible DRM, but they still got the money. The DRM could be better, but ask some executives at UBI or Blizzard if they think they'll make more money if they go totally DRM-fee. They'd look at you like you're crazy. The notion that DRM in general annoys more people and loses more sales than it makes up for in cost and protection? I don't buy it. The vast majority of consumers (like me) just don't care. The hardcore gamers certainly do. Which market's bigger? Obviously, the former, and until the phenomenon you describe hits that market, don't expect to see many companies embrace your philosophy.
The problem people have with DLC I truly do not get.
@vortican the problem with DLC is that it's usually just not very good. Often developers throw together a little side story in an afternoon, put it up for sale, and call it done. It's a great revenue stream, but if the content in the DLC isn't as good as the content in the game itself, then it isn't worth doing.
There are plenty of instances where DLC is done well. But usually, these are instances of equipment packs (or in the case of Civ V, civilization packs) that change how the player can play the game; they're basically dev-created mods, which is a good way to sponsor customization.
Content DLC is usually not done well, which is why people don't like it. I think developers are still trying to figure out what makes a good Content DLC, and until they do, the consumer will be paying for it with disappointment.
Comments
Ouch. Do I need to take screenshots of my GOG, Gamers Gate, Amazon and Steam game pages? I can also stack all my box video games, music library and movie library on the dining room table and take some pictures. Plus there is the number of games I backed on Kickstarter to add to the count. Well maybe not stack everything on the dining room table, my wife would kill me. It's something like 4 boxes of VHS, 6 boxes of DVDs, 3 or 4 boxes of CDs, a drawer full of Blu Ray movies, a drawer full of PS2 and PS3 games.
Edit - I forgot to add the number of collector editions that I keep in a dresser cabinet.
As for here, if BGEE goes DRM free before release, I'll pre-order. Beamdog will have my money. It's not like DRM works anyway.
The more I think about this, the more I find that the comments like "Why should I be treated like a pirate?" sounds suspiciously like, "Why can't I get free stuff too?" There will always be some purists who refuse to buy any game that includes DRM while the vast majority of gamers will put up with it because it's a necessary evil. I do not believe that the vast majority of pirates and crackers do so because they are frustrated with DRM or they have some philosophical objection. They do it because it's more convenient and cheaper to steal than to not. I had left my car doors unlocked one night and the next morning, I'd had my CD player stolen. One night, and somebody walked by, saw my doors were unlocked, and stole my CD player. They could have broken into any car in the parking lot, but they chose mine because I left my doors unlocked, so they didn't have to break a window or jimmy a lock. It was simply easier.
If I leave my car in a garage to have work done, and I arrive after closing to pick it up, and the doors are locked so that I can not get my car, I don't ask, "Hey, why are you treating me like a criminal?" I showed up after hours and expected to retrieve my property. What if I made a song and sold it as an .MP3, then some hacker stole it and posted it on a website and gave it away for free. So now, I have to protect my song with DRM, and that means everyone can only own one copy, so that people don't rip me off for my work. I'm not punishing legitimate buyers of my work; I'm protecting the integrity of my work and just asking for verification that you paid for it. Is that really so much to ask?
I don't want stuff for free, that's why I'm not a pirate. Well, actually I do like free stuff too. There are some great games, music, and videos out there that are completely free. One of my favorite music artists released all his work for free. Some are closed source, and some are even open source.
As for Project Eternity. People have been asking for DRM free since it launched. There are a lot of comments requesting it, several comments saying they will pull their pledge before it's over if DRM free is not offered, and a lot of discussion about the FAQ. The FAQ stated clearly that Steam is definitely an option, but they were still currently looking into other options. Obsidian was obviously doing that, because I doubt it took only a couple of hours to work out the entire PE on GOG deal. Also, many people have claimed to raise their pledge now that a DRM free version is available. I will be upping my pledge also, I'm just waiting until I get home to review all the options.
The game marketplace is crowded. Non-DRM is a great way to differentiate yourself and stand out in the crowd. Not to mention the fact that it opens up new markets. GOG is one of them and the Jalister crowd is another. I may not be willing to compromise everytime so I can be included as another potential market. I am of course assuming that I am not a unique consumer.
I never said piracy doesn't exist. I said that it is irrelevant to releases like this one. Your car analogy is appropriate here. Would you consider adding a security system to your car that absolutely guaranteed it would never be broken into again if it also had a five percent chance of permanently locking you out of the car? I doubt that system would sell very well.
There are several MMOs that have now been emulated well enough to please a large population of players. World of Warcraft, being the most popular MMO, has many very functional emulators out there. Ultima Online, being the oldest MMO, has several very functional emulators out there. You can even design your own worlds in the UO emulators now. Everquest's emulator is also extremely advanced. Everquest 2's emulator is making good progress now.
Even defunct MMOs that have gone offline are in the works. Star Wars Galaxies highly functional. Matrix Online is moving slowly, but they have now gotten pass some of the problems and are progressing.
People are smart, and they are not all employed by developers and publishers. Anything can be accomplished today.
Sorry if I caused offence. I was mearly refering to what you said about pirating games that have DRM. The way you said it sounded like you supported it, but clearly I read it wrong and commented on somthing that you didn't say or mean.
So I'm sorry and take it back.
I hope this discussion can continue but I think I may be a bit out of my depth.
What I find comforting is that the greatness of the unregulated marketplace works all these things out in the end to the satisfaction of most people. Our discussions here are adding to that debate and influence the decision that publishers make in small ways but when taken in the aggregate, ultimately lead to the best solutions available. As with most things, I don't think you'll ever see a day where a majority of publishers allow DRM-free experiences, but I think they will be working on more effective and unobtrusive DRM schemes that will hopefully satisfy the expectations of players.
http://www.amazon.com/Assassins-Creed-2-Pc/product-reviews/B001TOQ8R0/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1
Maybe not 5%, but still enough people to be heard, and possibly dissuade others from buying. The number of negative comments, and the low star rating says a lot. It also didn't prevent millions of copies from being pirated.
On a side note, I do appreciate your ongoing debate. It seems the rest of the pro-DRM crowd has left the building. I don't know if that is a result of delay angst or a lack of arguments. I disagree with many of your points, but the discourse is intelligent and fun!
Games are another animal entirely. And within that industry I think this type of game inhabits an even smaller niche. This game does not need DRM.
Awesome! I can listen to that while playing Torchlight!!!
DRM for non AAA Games?
I notice that some people on here believe that non AAA games should have no DRM.
(If I'm reading correctly)
So people here believe that and indies and small companys have no right to protect there own creations and that the customer should be allowed to do what ever they want with their creations, including sharing them online, while AAA tittles should be allowed to take measures to try and stop this?
I may not fully understand this but that doesn't seem right to me
This allows an indie developer to listen to fans clamoring for DRM-free games, which is a privilege that some developers don't have by virtue of their being under the thumb of a contract with a larger publisher.
It's kind of the opposite of "have no right to protect", actually. It's more, "has freedom based on autonomy to listen to what the fans actually want and be able to give it to them, if they so choose." What the fans want is more freedom with their games. An indie developer is in more of a position to do just that.
What I do believe is that I should be allowed to use what I paid for, without having to deal with activation, or risk losing my software when a company goes under or decides to shutdown servers. I believe I should be allowed to backup my software so I will have it if my original gets destroyed.
DRM is one way people know games should not be copied, yet millions are still doing it. Even on AAA titles it's worthless. So maybe little Johnny can't copy Mass Effect 4 for his friend Bobby. I don't think those little friendly copies are what is hurting the gaming industry. What is hurting the industry, if it is actually hurting, is the amoral people that feel they are above the rules, or feel entitled, or that just don't care and pirate instead of buying. They are doing it whether DRM is there or not, because DRM is useless, except to prevent second hand sales. AAA companies spend lots of money to develop or buy and support DRM schemes that are useless. If I were a publisher using SecuROM, I would have demanded my money back from Sony as soon as I saw my game was cracked within hours of release. There are uncountable numbers of games cracked within one day, and there is also the other problem. Spore caused so many problems on the day of release with broken DRM, that their support staff was most likely seriously stressed. That also probably hurt future sales.
I am doubtful that many people will share copies to friends ,
God bless BG-EE
But i just feel if they can't make profit through the game , i don't think there are many offical DLCs can be avaiable in the future.
The problem is, you're demanding unfettered access to the game when the easiest DRM to use is product activation. Standalone DRM that works and is difficult to circumvent is a tough nut to crack, but just because it's difficult doesn't mean companies should stop trying, give up, let everyone pirate their products and expect their sales to increase. If someone kept stealing from your house again and again and again, no matter how complex a lock you put on your door, would you eventually just unlock your door and let them in whenever they want? Hell no; you'd be hiring private security or standing outside your door with a shotgun. Granted, that's the part that pisses off end users who have legally paid for the product, but that's the position some companies find themselves in. They've got to do something and they don't have the tools right now to do it right. That doesn't mean their desire to protect themselves is wrong. They just don't have the right lock for their door yet.
Eventually, I'm sure a way will be found to allow users the kind of access they expect to receive, have full control over their software to install it legally according to the terms of the license, and still prevent those who haven't paid from getting access to it. Until then though, I don't think encouraging companies to go DRM-free is a good idea. I would rather encourage stuff like the free-to-play model, which has the potential to solve this problem but in a different way.
As you said, the lock is broken. It lets anyone in that doesn't pay, and it harasses those that do pay, in some cases locking the payer out. The DRM is not preventing their product from being taken. It harasses the legal owners, it illegally prevents second hand sales, and it's also used as a mechanism for overpriced DLC. What is so hard to understand that 4,000,000 illegal copies shows that the DRM used was worthless? Or that your awesome DRM lasted 2 hours before being cracked? Why is it that I have heard plenty of stories of people playing a pirated copy before a legal owner was able to resolve DRM problems to get the game working?
DRM and DLC are two things that are doing more harm to gaming instead of helping it.
The problem people have with DLC I truly do not get.
There are plenty of instances where DLC is done well. But usually, these are instances of equipment packs (or in the case of Civ V, civilization packs) that change how the player can play the game; they're basically dev-created mods, which is a good way to sponsor customization.
Content DLC is usually not done well, which is why people don't like it. I think developers are still trying to figure out what makes a good Content DLC, and until they do, the consumer will be paying for it with disappointment.