Jalister, the reason you're hearing those stories is because you're plugged into the scene, playing the games with the same people who are stealing them.
That's not quite accurate. Most of the games I play are solo, or EQ2 and The Old Republic. The only other multiplayer games I am playing are L4D2 and Killing Floor on Steam, and Saints Row 3 with a friend who also purchased it through Steam.
Where I am hearing these stories is by reading reviews online, reviews on Amazon, and even game news articles. One story was about a game a reviewer wanted to review. For some reason, the magazine was not able to get a promo copy, so he went to the store on release day and bought it. Three hours after getting back to the office, and trying to get the game working because of DRM problems, a friend called him to ask him what he thought of the game. After the reviewer explained his plight, the friend laughed and said he had been playing the copy he downloaded for hours already. Unfortunately I do not remember the game.
If I were playing games with the people that were stealing, or stealing games myself, I probably wouldn't give a damn about DRM because it wouldn't affect me. It's because I am a paying customer that only uses legally obtained media that I complain about DRM, because it does affect me.
Maybe my side isn't large enough to make a financial difference, but I'm happier knowing that I'm not supporting DRM. I also won't buy a console version when a PC version has insane DRM. That is still supporting a company that uses DRM. The only money Ubisoft has seen from me in years is through GOG. I even had to really debate with myself on that one. Ultimately supporting GOG, and letting Ubisoft know I will be their games when they are DRM free, won out. So they get a few dollars from me here and there. They would have received a lot more if they didn't use the horrible DRM. With how many times DRM has gone wrong, I won't tolerate it. It's not just the online activation. Starforce and SecuROM are horrible pieces of malware to willingly install on your computer. I should not have to lower the performance, risk problems, and risk security on my computer to play a game I purchased. I still have a copy of one of the Splinter Cell games that I purchased on disk. I never installed it when I realized it had Starforce on it. Glad I bought it in the bargain bin, because that was money I lost.
@Vortican You keep using examples where physical items are stolen. That isn't happening with piracy. A better example would be if you gave tours of your house for money. If people were sneaking in to the tour without paying would you erect fences around your house and hire security that hurt the experience for your paying customers? Or would you accept a few losers getting the tour for free was a cost of doing business and keep trying to elevate the experience for your paying customers?
Piracy is not theft in the traditional sense. It is still wrong and immoral. But it doesn't deprive the owner of the thing in question. Of course we would handle things differently if people were taking our stuff and we no longer got to use the things we pay for ourselves. Oh wait, that is what DRM does to us in some cases
@Jalister, my point wasn't directed at you specifically, or even directed to whom you might be paying with or which games you're playing. I was attempting (perhaps poorly) to illustrate that you have more advanced knowledge than Joe Schmo who is buying a game to play from Worst Buy, even if it's Old Republic, War of Warcraft, or single-player games. Joe doesn't read forums or games websites. He just walks into a store and picks a game, or hears about it from a friend. He has a full-time job, a wife, and two small children, but he grew up like us playing games, so he doesn't have the time to investigate DRM and he really doesn't care. He just wants to buy his game and play it. Unless he's one of those very few (comparatively) who does have some problem with the DRM that deprives him of his playing experience, DRM doesn't affect him in any way.
@Treyolen, I get the difference in physical property vs. non-physical property or paying for an experience. Ask yourself why do venues where you pay an entry fee stamp your hand or issue tickets? It's to prevent people from getting in without paying. In your example, I'd employ some measures to keep the losers out, like stamping their hand, issuing a ticket, or a bracelet, so that I can easily determine they paid. Yeah, they are inconvenienced because they have to keep that ticket or wear that bracelet, but most of them aren't going to give a damn. It's the price of entry and if they lose those things, sorry but they don't have a way to prove they paid. Movie theaters don't just let anyone walk in because occasionally, some punks sneak their way in. They still try to stop that.
It's a tricky situation. Because the thing being stolen is something that five or even ten years ago would have been a physical item. The world hasn't yet figured out how to adapt the laws to this new form of digital merchandise, but the principle is still the same.
If I found out that someone was hacking into my computer, copying chapters of my book, and posting them on the internet, I would react in much the same way as if someone stole my television. Probably more violently than that, actually, because those chapters are part of something that I intend to sell, and someone distributing them for free undermines my potential profits.
@Vortican There are activists for every issue in the world and they almost always are a minority. That doesn't make their points any less relevant. Most people didn't protest during the civil rights movement. Apathy is a strong force in human civilization that has been proven time and time again. I don't think you can judge any issue based on how many people protest.
Your movie theater argument is much more appropriate I think. But in all the theaters I frequent the ticket checker is within fifteen paces of the cashier. The transaction is just a two step process. But it still only occurs the one time. This approximates the credit card transaction between me and Beamdog. Activation servers force a transaction EVERY time I install. That would be like having to show my ticket at the theater every time I go to the restroom. That has never happened to me even once in my life. They certainly have the right to check my ticket every time, but the theaters I've been going to for thirty years have all recognized that it would be bad for business to treat the paying customers like criminals. Again, they have the right but they choose not to do it.
Also, someone mentioned music earlier. Neal Young is advocating a new file format specifically to enhance the pirate experience. He believes that piracy is the new radio and is a good thing for that industry. I realize that this isn't an apples to apples comparison. But it does show that piracy is not a black and white issue. Regardless of his belief in the morality of the concept, he does recognize that it doesn't impact his profits. Games are not a "radio" format, but it does illustrate another artist with skin in the game showing disdain for DRM. Kinda like Trent's Twitter posts.
Your movie theater argument is much more appropriate I think. But in all the theaters I frequent the ticket checker is within fifteen paces of the cashier. The transaction is just a two step process. But it still only occurs the one time. This approximates the credit card transaction between me and Beamdog. Activation servers force a transaction EVERY time I install. That would be like having to show my ticket at the theater every time I go to the restroom. That has never happened to me even once in my life. They certainly have the right to check my ticket every time, but the theaters I've been going to for thirty years have all recognized that it would be bad for business to treat the paying customers like criminals. Again, they have the right but they choose not to do it.
Actually, the credit card transaction between you and the movie theatre has a 1:1 likeness to your credit card transaction with Beamdog. It's a processing of payment.
The ticket checker is the download server, which authenticates your purchase prior to download.
The guy who checks your ticket before you go into the IMAX theatre and gives you your 3D glasses if it's 3D is the authentication server, which checks your purchase prior to installation.
In comparing it to DRM, the IMAX theatre is the AAA game that is being sold at a premium and needs to be protected; the "cheap tickets" (if you could call them cheap anymore!) theatres are the indie and old games on GoG.
(The concession stand is the DLC pack, in case anyone was wondering.)
It's...not a perfect metaphor. But I thought I'd clarify things a bit.
He has a full-time job, a wife, and two small children, but he grew up like us playing games, so he doesn't have the time to investigate DRM and he really doesn't care. He just wants to buy his game and play it..
This description isn't that far off from me. The main difference is that I am an educated buyer. I read reviews, test products, try demos, check return policies, etc. Everyone should be an educated buyer, unless you can afford to burn money.
I just want to buy a game and play it, now, tomorrow, and 10 years from now. Unfortunately the bad games, buggy releases, DRM problems, deceptive demos, DLC money churners, etc. causes me to be smart about my purchases. Thanks to DLC, there is no reason to buy a game new anymore. Wait until they've finished making all the DLC, then buy the GOTY or Ultimate editions that has all the DLC included, and is 50% the cost of the original release. You could even buy the game new, play it now, then buy that GOTY or Ultimate edition just to get the DLC cheaper than if you bought the DLC individually.
Just to mix the DRM discussion up a bit. Take Bioshock for example. The game is several years old, has sold millions, and has been pirated millions of times. Now you have people like me that will not deal with online activation, Starforce, and SecuROM. I am still waiting to play this game, but even the Steam version has online activation layered on top. Why keep DRM now? It's outlived its purpose on a title that old. The game can be purchased on sale for $5 at times. I have an ever growing list of games that I am just waiting to launch on GOG, or to see the DRM was removed.
Also, someone mentioned music earlier. Neal Young is advocating a new file format specifically to enhance the pirate experience. He believes that piracy is the new radio and is a good thing for that industry. I realize that this isn't an apples to apples comparison. But it does show that piracy is not a black and white issue. Regardless of his belief in the morality of the concept, he does recognize that it doesn't impact his profits. Games are not a "radio" format, but it does illustrate another artist with skin in the game showing disdain for DRM. Kinda like Trent's Twitter posts.
I think that Neal (Neil?) Young has a valid point and if he wants to give away his work, it's totally his right. Louis CK sold tickets for his shows on his website for whatever people wanted to pay for them and made millions of dollars. Sure, that model can work, but it is no more or less valid than protecting your work via DRM. It doesn't mean one of them works and another doesn't, because they're both clearly capable of making money. Everyone recognizes that DRM-free music works the same way as DRM-free games: it helps indie developers and musicians get their stuff out to an audience. We've also addressed the fact that while this works for smaller companies and helps them get exposure and they can make money doing this, perhaps this model doesn't always work for larger companies. There is, perhaps, some point where a company butts up against an economic limit with the DRM-free model; ie, they can't make any more money giving away their stuff, so if they want to grow, they have to transition to a more traditional model (or at least a different one) and DRM can be an effective part of that at preventing lost sales. Judging the industry as it is now, nothing leads me to believe that DRM flat-out doesn't work. It doesn't prevent every stolen copy nor does it save every sale nor does it annoy every user, but it can have a place in our industry and people are obviously willing to accept it.
However, in regards to the movie theater example (which I think is a good one) , I do not believe your interpretation is entirely accurate. Every time you see that movie, even if it's the same movie, you have to buy a ticket and check it with a worker at the facility. You're essentially granted a license to watch that movie at that time, each time you visit the theater. This seems to me to be the same when you purchase software media; you're granted a license to install that software once (or more, depending on the conditions of the EULA, think of buying multiple ticket "packs"). As long as you stay in the theater, you can watch that movie until it's over, just like you can play your game as much as you want once it's installed, but yes, you have to pay for it and you have to validate (stamp your ticket) each time you install it. Going to the restroom is not leaving the facility, it's like taking a break during your install. You can always come back and finish it, or you can walk out the door if you don't like the movie.
@Jalister, certainly I see a time when it no longer makes sense to have DRM (in a very old product). Eventually, works of art become anandoned and become public domain, so anyone can use them. Abandonware is a part of the software universe, and companies can choose to release the rights to their products and give them away, but consider that companies also often package them with other products as collections, gift packs, collectors editions and nostalgia products. In all cases, there is still money to be made there, and so they're going to protect those products as long as they can make money off of them.
Educated buyers are good things; I'm just saying that much of the industry are not what we would call educated buyers. They just want to play the games, not understand the ins and outs of their rights. Most people don't read the EULA's or the terms of service whenever a program asks them to check that box. I think they should, but realistically, there is almost no chance of there being any consequences for most people even if they do violate the EULA. There's almost no chance they're going to violate it knowingly in such a way that it would be a problem for the company. So, I think unobtrusive DRM should be the goal.
@Vortican I see your point of view regarding the movie. But I just wouldn't go see those movies then. I've always felt that these companies have the right to use DRM. But it is a poor decision in my opinion. You draw a line between large and small companies that I probably agree with for the most part. But I think Beamdog is very much on the small side of that divide and therefore has more to lose from DRM than to gain. If they ever do a Diablo 3 level production they may need to consider DRM. But this ain't that type of release. I'm not saying abolish DRM altogether. I'm saying get rid of all DRM for BG:EE and future Infinity Engine releases.
And I definitely agree with your opinion of the markets level of education regarding these things. That is why I don't think the market will naturally handle issues like this without a certain level of activism. The average consumer doesn't even consider the implications of what is happening. That is a recipe for corporate abuse. The Indie scene is rising up as a real alternative because it encompasses so many of us no DRM nuts. If we stop advocating for better licensing terms the industry will go the wrong way with most people not even realizing the difference or what they have lost.
Every time you see that movie, even if it's the same movie, you have to buy a ticket and check it with a worker at the facility. You're essentially granted a license to watch that movie at that time, each time you visit the theater.
That's why if I really like a movie, I buy the DVD or Blu Ray. One fee, multiple views. Now that I have a family, and money is tighter, I rarely go to the theater. Four movies this year, so far. $20 to see Resident Evil at IMAX and a bottle of water. I did enjoy it though. I'll pay less than that for the Blu Ray.
Yeah, but you still can't copy that DVD or Blu Ray and give it to your friends, and companies need to take measures to prevent that you don't. You're also still only buying a license to view it (you'll notice the exhibitions warning that plays before the movie). You have a wider license, but you don't have an unlimited one and you certainly don't own that movie.
I agree with Beamdog's DRM decision and I appreciate @Treyolen clarifying his position on it because I don't think that absolutes work well when you're dealing with private property unless you're the owner. When you have to deal with others and THEIR property, you've got to be willing to compromise. I also think that the indie scene becoming more popular is definitely a reaction to the DRM we've gotten in recent years, among other things. That's the beauty of unregulated markets; you never know which way they're going but they almost always result in positive improvements for everyone.
The only thing preventing me from copying a DVD or Blu Ray is me. It is of course not legal and not ethical, but there is nothing on the disk itself to stop me. CSS, AACS, and BD+ are all worthless in preventing copying. I choose not to copy the disk for others because that is the right thing to do.
I do realize there is a license with some limits on my purchase, but as for purchasing for myself, there is no real limitation. I can watch it now, in the morning, or at 4AM. No internet is needed. I can watch on my TV, computer or laptop. I can watch it at home, in the car when I am not driving, or at a friends house. My fair use rights allow me to backup the movie, but of course the DMCA criminalizes that, which is a different discussion.
I don't have to compromise. They have a product that I have to want to buy. If there is some reason that I don't want it, then I don't buy it.
When you have to deal with others and THEIR property, you've got to be willing to compromise.
If others want MY money, then they have to be willing to compromise. They don't need to convince me to accept DRM, they need to convince me to buy their product.
Consider DRM the aspartame in diet Coke. I refuse to ingest aspartame, so I will not buy or drink diet Coke. There is no compromise on my part, and their is nothing the seller can do except offer me a version of Coke without aspartame. Coca-Cola has compromised by selling a non diet Coke. Before you say something like "but there are other artificial sweetners", no artificial sweeteners are good for you, and I won't drink any diet drinks, no compromising on my part. I want BGEE, not diet BGEE.
That is one of the problems today, people buckle to easily and don't stand up for what they want or believe in. I had more to add here, but that would have crossed into a topic we decided to not discuss here.
I lose nothing by not buying a product I don't want. The seller loses when they don't sell, because they have already invested time and money into making the product. As long as the customer holds onto his money, the customer is in control.
@Jalister I was going to correct you on the ethics of copying a DVD, but you mentioned it yourself in the next paragraph. The DMCA is a violation of our rights. This isn't one of the grey areas where rights can mean different things. It is a well established doctrine of US law that we have the right to own backups of our purchases. Making it a felony to produce an item we have a legal right to possess with no legal alternate method of procurement is a travesty. This is slightly off topic. But the issues are closely related since if a non-DRM patch is not released it will be a felony for us to install BG:EE after the activation servers go down.
I certainly don't agree with DMCA, but I was referring to compromise in the context that reasonable safeguards in place to prevent you from misusing the license to the product for which you've paid can be an alternative to A) locking down the product so hard that it hinders or flatly blocks your ability to use it and having absolutely no protection at all for copyright holders. Of course, customers always vote with their wallets but this phenomenon doesn't exist in markets controlled by authorities or in markets where private property doesn't exist (communist societies). There's no such thing as property rights because everything is owned by the state. The beauty of capitalism is that we can work these things out without having a need to have the state do anything but enforce contracts (how I wish that were the case in the US). The industry may move towards a less-intrusive DRM or no DRM at all, or it may move towards stronger DRM measures, and customer feedback will certainly play an important role, but I do not think that individuals (even you) will give up gaming entirely if for some reason, permanent install checks, even once during installation, becomes something that nearly every studio chooses to employ.
As for who suffers from DRM, I totally agree that it is the law-abiding citizen, but law is irrelevant in this case. It isn't the law that requires DRM and the "suffering" referenced in the vast majority of cases, isn't suffering at all, except to a few who want to use their products in ways not permitted by the DRM scheme. Not that the vast majority is always right either, but it simply doesn't bother them. That's why I think we're much more likely to eventually see some kind of DRM model that effectively enforces the rights of content creators while being much less unobtrusive than the current schemes. That benefits everyone, but neither side is going to get everything they want.
but I do not think that individuals (even you) will give up gaming entirely if for some reason, permanent install checks, even once during installation, becomes something that nearly every studio chooses to employ.
I actually have enough games now to keep me going for the rest of my life, and longer. Plus I still want to replay many games I own. I still want to setup a fully functional EQ2 server with my own classes, rules and quests, which is a huge undertaking. I'm good if I never buy another game ever, really.
I can play one game for a long time. (just some) Saints Row 3 - 166 hours (and I was planning to play tonight, before even thinking of it here) Left 4 Dead - 88 hours Killing Floor - 71 hours Everquest 2 - playing since launch (7 years, 10 months) Uncharted (PS3) - Played through 3 times, once at each skill level. Ultima 4 - probably around 125 hours.
But let's just go with every game from now on will use permanent checks of some sort. Sure, maybe I will still buy some games, but I will become much more picky, impulse buys will never be made, and I will always wait until the price drops a lot. I buy a lot of games, way more than I can ever hope to play. Strong DRM on everything would help me save money, since I would probably only buy 2 or 3 games a year. That still coincides with what I said before, the more they tighten DRM, the less money they will get from me.
If Blu Ray disks didn't have all the hassle between the point of inserting the disk to the point of playing the movie, I would have purchased more movies by now. As it is, it's a bit of a PITA that I shouldn't have to deal with, so only my favorite movies get purchased now. I was very happy when DVDs first came out, because by then VHS movies had several warnings and previews you had to fast forward through. DVDs allowed me to skip all the junk, for a while at least. Eventually they added some sections that couldn't be skipped.
The more I'm inconvenienced, the less I spend. Maybe this DRM is a good thing.
@Vortican In my crystal ball I see the industry separating the divide even further between indie developers and the AAA houses. And I do think DRM or a lack of DRM will play an integral part in defining this chasm. I also believe this will negatively affect the big studios. They'll still make plenty of money, but not as much as they could. And I'm sure they will blame this on piracy instead of their own mistakes. I think the indie movement will continue to grow with customers like me and @Jalister on board for a great ride. I'm hoping that Beamdog will be a major player on this train.
@Jalister Ultima 4 for that long? I was never able to get into that one. Ultima 5 is one of my all time favorites and I don't think I have anywhere near that many hours in on it. What do you do for that long in Ultima 4 era Brittania?
Just received a reply to my questions I sent to Frozenbyte (Trine/Trine 2). They just confirmed that the expansion will get the DRM free version added to our Humble Store purchases, and we should be able to purchase through the Humble Store soon. The Windows version does not have the DRM free version yet, but the Mac and Linux versions are DRM now. Based on my previous history with them, I know the DRM free version will come.
I got so caught up in other things, I haven't been by here in a while. In case any Infinity Engine fans have somehow not heard of Project Eternity, the kickstarter closes in 9 hours.
I created this thread a while back, and I have returned to see if anything has changed and if Beamdog has decided to remove DRM at the request of me and other willing-to-pay customers. I see nothing has changed, including individuals arguing in support of DRM. Supply excuse after excuse all you want, many of us won't buy a product with DRM, and you won't change that. I just recently dropped $75 on Project Eternity's kickstarter page, after they said they would offer a GoG.com version free of DRM. I then messaged Obsidian, thanking them for not treating everyone like criminals by using DRM that will do nothing to worsen the Pirate's experience, only the experience of the customer. I was granted a response of, "Absolutely Andrew, and thank you!!!"
No Obsidian, Thank You! The pleasure was all mine .
Nothing better than keeping a discussion shut down with an "I won't change my mind and you're wrong" rant...
I think I'm going to go into the Dragon Age: Inquisition thread and let them know I'm preordering a copy as soon as it's announced because they're all crazy for not liking Dragon Age 2. Then, maybe I'll go into the Mass Effect thread (if there is one) and tell them that Mass Effect 3's ending was the best I've ever played and they're nuts because they hated it.
@Vortican Don't hate! Any activity in here is an improvement. I was hoping to be perusing newly updated information about character builds and game experiences by this date. Because of the delay, this and a few other threads are all we have to get our BG fix!
This conversation absolutely had its moments. I wish more people had waded in with insightful perspectives. At least until the game releases
Since the game is unreleased again, maybe this is a good time to revive this thread? I had forgotten about this until the sad news about sales being temporarily stopped showed up on my news site. I still haven't purchased or played this, and for the record I have not downloaded it. I just looked up the dates today.
How did the DRM work out for this game? Released - 11/28/2012. Cracked - early 11/29/2012.
To be fair, I've been so busy with other things, I've only had time to concentrate on a few games. I have purchased a lot of games since my last time here though. Several Humble Bundles and Indie Royales, as well as some nice Kickstarters. I'm a bit of a game collector.
I'm not implying that I'm happy the game is being pirated. Actually I hate that any game gets pirated. Devs work hard to make games, and I work hard so I can play them. This does bring me back to one of my points though...
DRM is not preventing piracy, but DRM is preventing at least one sale.
Comments
Where I am hearing these stories is by reading reviews online, reviews on Amazon, and even game news articles. One story was about a game a reviewer wanted to review. For some reason, the magazine was not able to get a promo copy, so he went to the store on release day and bought it. Three hours after getting back to the office, and trying to get the game working because of DRM problems, a friend called him to ask him what he thought of the game. After the reviewer explained his plight, the friend laughed and said he had been playing the copy he downloaded for hours already. Unfortunately I do not remember the game.
If I were playing games with the people that were stealing, or stealing games myself, I probably wouldn't give a damn about DRM because it wouldn't affect me. It's because I am a paying customer that only uses legally obtained media that I complain about DRM, because it does affect me.
Maybe my side isn't large enough to make a financial difference, but I'm happier knowing that I'm not supporting DRM. I also won't buy a console version when a PC version has insane DRM. That is still supporting a company that uses DRM. The only money Ubisoft has seen from me in years is through GOG. I even had to really debate with myself on that one. Ultimately supporting GOG, and letting Ubisoft know I will be their games when they are DRM free, won out. So they get a few dollars from me here and there. They would have received a lot more if they didn't use the horrible DRM. With how many times DRM has gone wrong, I won't tolerate it. It's not just the online activation. Starforce and SecuROM are horrible pieces of malware to willingly install on your computer. I should not have to lower the performance, risk problems, and risk security on my computer to play a game I purchased. I still have a copy of one of the Splinter Cell games that I purchased on disk. I never installed it when I realized it had Starforce on it. Glad I bought it in the bargain bin, because that was money I lost.
Piracy is not theft in the traditional sense. It is still wrong and immoral. But it doesn't deprive the owner of the thing in question. Of course we would handle things differently if people were taking our stuff and we no longer got to use the things we pay for ourselves. Oh wait, that is what DRM does to us in some cases
@Treyolen, I get the difference in physical property vs. non-physical property or paying for an experience. Ask yourself why do venues where you pay an entry fee stamp your hand or issue tickets? It's to prevent people from getting in without paying. In your example, I'd employ some measures to keep the losers out, like stamping their hand, issuing a ticket, or a bracelet, so that I can easily determine they paid. Yeah, they are inconvenienced because they have to keep that ticket or wear that bracelet, but most of them aren't going to give a damn. It's the price of entry and if they lose those things, sorry but they don't have a way to prove they paid. Movie theaters don't just let anyone walk in because occasionally, some punks sneak their way in. They still try to stop that.
If I found out that someone was hacking into my computer, copying chapters of my book, and posting them on the internet, I would react in much the same way as if someone stole my television. Probably more violently than that, actually, because those chapters are part of something that I intend to sell, and someone distributing them for free undermines my potential profits.
Your movie theater argument is much more appropriate I think. But in all the theaters I frequent the ticket checker is within fifteen paces of the cashier. The transaction is just a two step process. But it still only occurs the one time. This approximates the credit card transaction between me and Beamdog. Activation servers force a transaction EVERY time I install. That would be like having to show my ticket at the theater every time I go to the restroom. That has never happened to me even once in my life. They certainly have the right to check my ticket every time, but the theaters I've been going to for thirty years have all recognized that it would be bad for business to treat the paying customers like criminals. Again, they have the right but they choose not to do it.
The ticket checker is the download server, which authenticates your purchase prior to download.
The guy who checks your ticket before you go into the IMAX theatre and gives you your 3D glasses if it's 3D is the authentication server, which checks your purchase prior to installation.
In comparing it to DRM, the IMAX theatre is the AAA game that is being sold at a premium and needs to be protected; the "cheap tickets" (if you could call them cheap anymore!) theatres are the indie and old games on GoG.
(The concession stand is the DLC pack, in case anyone was wondering.)
It's...not a perfect metaphor. But I thought I'd clarify things a bit.
I just want to buy a game and play it, now, tomorrow, and 10 years from now. Unfortunately the bad games, buggy releases, DRM problems, deceptive demos, DLC money churners, etc. causes me to be smart about my purchases. Thanks to DLC, there is no reason to buy a game new anymore. Wait until they've finished making all the DLC, then buy the GOTY or Ultimate editions that has all the DLC included, and is 50% the cost of the original release. You could even buy the game new, play it now, then buy that GOTY or Ultimate edition just to get the DLC cheaper than if you bought the DLC individually.
Just to mix the DRM discussion up a bit. Take Bioshock for example. The game is several years old, has sold millions, and has been pirated millions of times. Now you have people like me that will not deal with online activation, Starforce, and SecuROM. I am still waiting to play this game, but even the Steam version has online activation layered on top. Why keep DRM now? It's outlived its purpose on a title that old. The game can be purchased on sale for $5 at times. I have an ever growing list of games that I am just waiting to launch on GOG, or to see the DRM was removed.
Yes.
Claiming that DRM helps prevent piracy is crazy, but if it helps them sleep at night, more power to them.
However, in regards to the movie theater example (which I think is a good one) , I do not believe your interpretation is entirely accurate. Every time you see that movie, even if it's the same movie, you have to buy a ticket and check it with a worker at the facility. You're essentially granted a license to watch that movie at that time, each time you visit the theater. This seems to me to be the same when you purchase software media; you're granted a license to install that software once (or more, depending on the conditions of the EULA, think of buying multiple ticket "packs"). As long as you stay in the theater, you can watch that movie until it's over, just like you can play your game as much as you want once it's installed, but yes, you have to pay for it and you have to validate (stamp your ticket) each time you install it. Going to the restroom is not leaving the facility, it's like taking a break during your install. You can always come back and finish it, or you can walk out the door if you don't like the movie.
@Jalister, certainly I see a time when it no longer makes sense to have DRM (in a very old product). Eventually, works of art become anandoned and become public domain, so anyone can use them. Abandonware is a part of the software universe, and companies can choose to release the rights to their products and give them away, but consider that companies also often package them with other products as collections, gift packs, collectors editions and nostalgia products. In all cases, there is still money to be made there, and so they're going to protect those products as long as they can make money off of them.
Educated buyers are good things; I'm just saying that much of the industry are not what we would call educated buyers. They just want to play the games, not understand the ins and outs of their rights. Most people don't read the EULA's or the terms of service whenever a program asks them to check that box. I think they should, but realistically, there is almost no chance of there being any consequences for most people even if they do violate the EULA. There's almost no chance they're going to violate it knowingly in such a way that it would be a problem for the company. So, I think unobtrusive DRM should be the goal.
And I definitely agree with your opinion of the markets level of education regarding these things. That is why I don't think the market will naturally handle issues like this without a certain level of activism. The average consumer doesn't even consider the implications of what is happening. That is a recipe for corporate abuse. The Indie scene is rising up as a real alternative because it encompasses so many of us no DRM nuts. If we stop advocating for better licensing terms the industry will go the wrong way with most people not even realizing the difference or what they have lost.
I agree with Beamdog's DRM decision and I appreciate @Treyolen clarifying his position on it because I don't think that absolutes work well when you're dealing with private property unless you're the owner. When you have to deal with others and THEIR property, you've got to be willing to compromise. I also think that the indie scene becoming more popular is definitely a reaction to the DRM we've gotten in recent years, among other things. That's the beauty of unregulated markets; you never know which way they're going but they almost always result in positive improvements for everyone.
I do realize there is a license with some limits on my purchase, but as for purchasing for myself, there is no real limitation. I can watch it now, in the morning, or at 4AM. No internet is needed. I can watch on my TV, computer or laptop. I can watch it at home, in the car when I am not driving, or at a friends house. My fair use rights allow me to backup the movie, but of course the DMCA criminalizes that, which is a different discussion.
I don't have to compromise. They have a product that I have to want to buy. If there is some reason that I don't want it, then I don't buy it. If others want MY money, then they have to be willing to compromise. They don't need to convince me to accept DRM, they need to convince me to buy their product.
Consider DRM the aspartame in diet Coke. I refuse to ingest aspartame, so I will not buy or drink diet Coke. There is no compromise on my part, and their is nothing the seller can do except offer me a version of Coke without aspartame. Coca-Cola has compromised by selling a non diet Coke. Before you say something like "but there are other artificial sweetners", no artificial sweeteners are good for you, and I won't drink any diet drinks, no compromising on my part. I want BGEE, not diet BGEE.
That is one of the problems today, people buckle to easily and don't stand up for what they want or believe in. I had more to add here, but that would have crossed into a topic we decided to not discuss here.
I lose nothing by not buying a product I don't want. The seller loses when they don't sell, because they have already invested time and money into making the product. As long as the customer holds onto his money, the customer is in control.
As for who suffers from DRM, I totally agree that it is the law-abiding citizen, but law is irrelevant in this case. It isn't the law that requires DRM and the "suffering" referenced in the vast majority of cases, isn't suffering at all, except to a few who want to use their products in ways not permitted by the DRM scheme. Not that the vast majority is always right either, but it simply doesn't bother them. That's why I think we're much more likely to eventually see some kind of DRM model that effectively enforces the rights of content creators while being much less unobtrusive than the current schemes. That benefits everyone, but neither side is going to get everything they want.
I can play one game for a long time. (just some)
Saints Row 3 - 166 hours (and I was planning to play tonight, before even thinking of it here)
Left 4 Dead - 88 hours
Killing Floor - 71 hours
Everquest 2 - playing since launch (7 years, 10 months)
Uncharted (PS3) - Played through 3 times, once at each skill level.
Ultima 4 - probably around 125 hours.
But let's just go with every game from now on will use permanent checks of some sort. Sure, maybe I will still buy some games, but I will become much more picky, impulse buys will never be made, and I will always wait until the price drops a lot. I buy a lot of games, way more than I can ever hope to play. Strong DRM on everything would help me save money, since I would probably only buy 2 or 3 games a year. That still coincides with what I said before, the more they tighten DRM, the less money they will get from me.
If Blu Ray disks didn't have all the hassle between the point of inserting the disk to the point of playing the movie, I would have purchased more movies by now. As it is, it's a bit of a PITA that I shouldn't have to deal with, so only my favorite movies get purchased now. I was very happy when DVDs first came out, because by then VHS movies had several warnings and previews you had to fast forward through. DVDs allowed me to skip all the junk, for a while at least. Eventually they added some sections that couldn't be skipped.
The more I'm inconvenienced, the less I spend. Maybe this DRM is a good thing.
@Jalister Ultima 4 for that long? I was never able to get into that one. Ultima 5 is one of my all time favorites and I don't think I have anywhere near that many hours in on it. What do you do for that long in Ultima 4 era Brittania?
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/obsidian/project-eternity
Awesome stretch goals have been reached, including a stronghold, a 10+ level dungeon, and a second large city.
Windows, Mac, and Linux versions. Steam and DRM free versions. I won't argue about the DRM free thing right now, just get over there and check it out.
No Obsidian, Thank You! The pleasure was all mine
I think I'm going to go into the Dragon Age: Inquisition thread and let them know I'm preordering a copy as soon as it's announced because they're all crazy for not liking Dragon Age 2. Then, maybe I'll go into the Mass Effect thread (if there is one) and tell them that Mass Effect 3's ending was the best I've ever played and they're nuts because they hated it.
This conversation absolutely had its moments. I wish more people had waded in with insightful perspectives. At least until the game releases
How did the DRM work out for this game?
Released - 11/28/2012.
Cracked - early 11/29/2012.
To be fair, I've been so busy with other things, I've only had time to concentrate on a few games. I have purchased a lot of games since my last time here though. Several Humble Bundles and Indie Royales, as well as some nice Kickstarters. I'm a bit of a game collector.
I'm not implying that I'm happy the game is being pirated. Actually I hate that any game gets pirated. Devs work hard to make games, and I work hard so I can play them. This does bring me back to one of my points though...
DRM is not preventing piracy, but DRM is preventing at least one sale.