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Are Belt and Liia Jannath supposed to be pushovers? (spoiler warning)

So, I'm doing a solo run as a sorcerer and just did the little even at Duchal Palace.
My question is really regarding our dear Grand Dukes, who died like flies the first few tries.

Liia Jannath is supposed to be "a mage of no small power" according to herself, and yet all she does is run around with her dagger trying to kill the doppelgangers. A few spells, stoneskin etc would be a nice addition to her. She shouldn't be trying to melee them at least.

Belt is supposed to be a lvl 19 fighter according to http://forgottenrealms.wikia.com/wiki/Belt and yet he dies quite easily as well. Must be a day off for him...

Is this working as intended? @Dee


semiticgodGoturaltypo_tilly
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Comments

  • LordRumfishLordRumfish Member Posts: 936
    Good question here. This was also a point of difficulty in the one solo run I tried (and fairly difficult even with a party). In the solo run I was pleased to be able to just keep Belt alive, in the party run I was always unhappy if I couldn't save both of the Grand Dukes. I realize it's supposed to be a hard and climactic fight, but the NPCs leave much to be desired.

    I would hazard a guess that the fight is supposed to be this difficult though, and that I just gotta deal with it.

  • AristilliusAristillius Member Posts: 873
    He's chaotic neutral? Cool.

    Daevelon
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,900
    edited November 2013
    Sed said:



    Liia Jannath is supposed to be "a mage of no small power" according to herself, and yet all she does is run around with her dagger trying to kill the doppelgangers. A few spells, stoneskin etc would be a nice addition to her. She shouldn't be trying to melee them at least.

    Looking at Liia's script it looks like she should be casting some spells (she has a bunch memorized) but she has a script that is overriding that in favour of having her just attack by hand.

    Like Liia, Belt is level 11 in the game. He really doesn't have much in the way of equipment (a Bastard Sword +1, a Medium Shield +1, and Chain Mail +1). He does however have over 100 health.

    jackjacksemiticgod
  • SedSed Member Posts: 788
    If I remember my very early games, I do remember her using Melf's acid arrow and such in the fight. This was Vanilla.

    I'd like to see them working as intended, and at least give Liia mirror image/stoneskin :)

  • SedSed Member Posts: 788
    @Jalily @Balquo - aren't you two the script fanatics in the team? :)

  • BalquoBalquo Member, Developer Posts: 2,729
    edited November 2013
    elminster explains it above. Another script is overriding her "use magic" script. But even if that wasn't the case she still would't use it as her magic script doesn't recognize that doppelgangers as enemies. Changing her allegiance to something else would work but likely at the cost of her life as every doppelganger will likely charge straight for her. The best way would be to replace her attack with weapon script with a few new attacks that use spells.

    elminstersemiticgod
  • SedSed Member Posts: 788
    @Balquo
    The big issue now was that several doppelgangers went straight for her, and she ran into the middle of the fray getting killed extremely fast.
    Having har cast spells from a distance would keep her alive much longer.
    Is there a lot of work re-writing the script?

  • SedSed Member Posts: 788
    @Balquo
    Awesome. Add a stoneskin or mirror image to her and I'll be even more happy ;)

    Eudaemonium
  • Midget_GemsMidget_Gems Member Posts: 8
    I have a question about the Duchal Palace fight so I thought I'd jump on the end of this.

    Did they change the fight for BGEE ?
    The reason I ask is that in the old days I could get passed this fight with a really weak party or solo run by using ORS to protect one of the Dukes. But now if I try that I get instant death. Makes for more reloads and some different cheese tactics.
    Guess it's only fair if they closed that loophole but can anyone confirm this for me.

  • ahhyepahhyep Member Posts: 114
    I was able to buy a scroll of chaos from the sorcerous sundries in the first zone of the city of baldur's gate. I casted wand of monster summoning for 5 gnolls, hasted them, and then walked into the room to begin the event. When the dopplegangers turned hostile I casted chaos and they all became confused and ran away. I was able to finish them off quickly with the gnolls and magic missle.

  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 15,900
    elminster said:

    Sed said:



    Liia Jannath is supposed to be "a mage of no small power" according to herself, and yet all she does is run around with her dagger trying to kill the doppelgangers. A few spells, stoneskin etc would be a nice addition to her. She shouldn't be trying to melee them at least.

    Looking at Liia's script it looks like she should be casting some spells (she has a bunch memorized) but she has a script that is overriding that in favour of having her just attack by hand.

    Like Liia, Belt is level 11 in the game. He really doesn't have much in the way of equipment (a Bastard Sword +1, a Medium Shield +1, and Chain Mail +1). He does however have over 100 health.
    Serious thread necro here. I don't even remember this thread let alone writing this! :)

  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,099
    In my head canon this is an assassination attempt. Sarevok took the time to shut down her magic. She is a mate of no small power, so why risk her teleporting out? That or horrid wiltering the entire assassination attempt away...

  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,657
    What? Horrid wilting in a room full of politicians and diplomats....

    Actually, that does sound pretty tempting.

    GoturalZaghoul
  • Abi_DalzimAbi_Dalzim Member Posts: 1,410
    They can help out quite a lot, it's just that you really, really need to dispel the Doppelgangers' haste otherwise they're toast. Use arrows of dispelling, so as not to take chances.

  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356

    They can help out quite a lot, it's just that you really, really need to dispel the Doppelgangers' haste otherwise they're toast. Use arrows of dispelling, so as not to take chances.

    I'm sure that's an effective tactic, so that's fine.

    However, at least when running with a full party ... no, you don't actually "need" to dispel their Haste (and I can't remember ever bothering to do so), you can pretty reliably cut them down before they do serious damage if you hit hard and fast.

  • JimstromJimstrom Member Posts: 92
    yes i'v been asking myself that too, some NPC's who is supposed to be pretty powerful is really weak in this game, my favorite example is Alatos Ravenscar the leader of the Shadow Thiefs guild in Baldur's Gate has abyssmal stats and sucky equipment, the Iron Throne leaders also seem really weak in comparison too Daeveron and Melium or any other encounter.

    GallowglassGotural
  • SirBatinceSirBatince Member Posts: 789
    Jimstrom said:

    yes i'v been asking myself that too, some NPC's who is supposed to be pretty powerful is really weak in this game, my favorite example is Alatos Ravenscar the leader of the Shadow Thiefs guild in Baldur's Gate has abyssmal stats and sucky equipment, the Iron Throne leaders also seem really weak in comparison too Daeveron and Melium or any other encounter.

    and here I'm still wondering how badly could the uber-geared Firewine war party have f#$%ed up to die to packs of kobolds.

    The opposite is true aswell. When a doppleganger uses the Durlag form, it suddenly becomes a diamond gear grinding machine of death that rivals maybe even Sarevok.

  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2018
    Deleted.

    Post edited by Yulaw9460 on
    StummvonBordwehr
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,133
    In my SCS installs, Liia Jannath never attacks at all, and can be protected with Invisibility, while the doppelgangers can be largely neutralized using scrolls of Greater Malison and Chaos. It might depend on your install, though.

  • Yulaw9460Yulaw9460 Member Posts: 634
    edited November 2018
    Deleted.

    Post edited by Yulaw9460 on
  • GloomfrostGloomfrost Member Posts: 249
    Guess this is another necro thread but my gosh i am having huge difficulties keeping these pushovers alive at all. A solo no reload, well it was until this fight, I stand right in front of Belt, every greater doppelganger goes right for Belt and Liia, sometimes one might go for me and every other one says attacks Belt attacks Liia. By the time i can get a off to then cast a horror spell Lila is usually dead. My usual way i would win this fight is to use arrows of dispelling but the greater doppelgangers are just attacking to fast and to powerful for these chumps. I don't remember them aggroing this bad and attacking so fast on any previous playthorughs. No way will i be doing a no reload run until i can figure out a way to win this fight. At this point these two really are ridiculous pushovers. I can't make them invisible they just attack and become invisible. I can't Otiluke's Resilient Sphere because that Winski Perorate appears and does some kind of special firestike that bypasses 100% resistance to fire and protection from magic. That wouldn't matter anyway because it a hostile action and everyone attacks me making this scenario unwinnable. I used to be able to spam monster summons but now there is a limit so that's a no go.

    Well after about 12 reloads i got an a save were belt barely survives. Starting to think i won't even count this in a no reload challenge. Every other challenge, Drizzt, Sarevok, etc. are nothing compared to trying to keep these chumps alive :(

    Honestly i have no idea how to win a no reload challenge for this part of the game without mods installed like SCS.

    OrlonKronsteenJuliusBorisov
  • Grond0Grond0 Member Posts: 5,149
    edited July 11
    @Gloomfrost I agree that the encounter at the palace is the hardest bit of BG1 to do no-reload. If you really want to make certain of success though you can charm the doppleganger nobles with cloaks and move them into locations where they can't see the dukes. When they transform they won't then attack and you can deal with them individually.

    If you want to have some experimental fun you can charm anyone in Baldur's Gate and bring them into the palace (moving them through the sewers if they start in another area).

    If you don't want to use charm, then chaos (including from scroll) works pretty well with summons, although it won't quite guarantee success.

    Casting invisibility on the dukes can help break the dopplegangers' attack up - they're generally not much threat if they attack you rather than the dukes.

    I would expect just using best equipment and all useful buffs (speed, defense, mind focusing, power, giant strength, DUHM) would allow you to win the majority of encounters. You can up the odds a bit more using Bhaal horror, which any character can get as a Bhaal power. Alternatively, any character (other than a wizard slayer) can also use the wand of sleep as a disabler. Potions of firebreath will allow you to finish opponents off quickly (though don't try moving around much if doing that ;)).

    OrlonKronsteenGloomfrostJuliusBorisovsemiticgod
  • GloomfrostGloomfrost Member Posts: 249
    edited July 11
    hey all great ideas Grond0 i like the charm ideas, since you can still leave the palace, and the sewers idea is brilliant. Gonna practice a bit before see what works before another reload challenge. These guys have definitely changed since my yearly or 2 year run-through's, was really shocking to see them just wipe out Belt and Liia in second just bypassing me and the summoned monsters ;) Thanks again for the tips.

    Updated--- well that charm thing is a no go screws something up in the game as not registering all dopplegangers as being dead. Belt and Liia both say "has nothing to say to you" :) In fact charm really messes a lot of stuff up in this one location. However thanks to your tips i found a way that so far that has given me (knock on wood) 100% chance of success in 12 runs so a few more i think i will do a no reload again with this knowledge, thanks again Grond0.

    Post edited by Gloomfrost on
    OrlonKronsteenJuliusBorisov
  • jasteyjastey Member Posts: 1,147
    @Gloomfrost How about you post your way of how to win this solo instead of just mentioning that you found a way. ;)

    Gloomfrost
  • GloomfrostGloomfrost Member Posts: 249
    edited July 11
    sure what the heck, it wasn't for any big secret, just thought i'd leave it for experimentation.

    As Grond0 suggested the key is having them "attack you rather than the dukes."

    Stand to the bottom right of the encounter. Wearing the boots of speed, The Dale's Protector Bracers and your favorite Bow, buff up with every potion you want. I used in this order, Oil of Speed, Potion Storm Giant Strength, Potion of Mind Focusing, Potion of Power, Potion of Heroism, Wand of monster summing in front of Belt until no more summoning is allowed. I surrounded him in a circle of monsters. Currently playing a multi-classed Mage so i have Invisibility memorized.

    Casting invisibility on Liia first, forget about Belt he just attacks anyways and becomes visible. You should go into your casting animation as the text comes on screen. So after buffing up cast invisibility on Liia. She seems to take a while to cast mirror image and generally the longer she takes to attack the less you have to worry about her. With boots of Speed and Hasted you should make her invisible before the first Greater Dopplganger appears. Use arrows of Dispelling on them to get them out of the blurred and hasted state they start in. I usually have one or two doppelgangers dispelled by the time Liia becomes visible. Drop in your two horror Bhaal Spawn powers, and or horror spells or wands while running around sniping. Darts of Stunning can REALLY help in this fight, i got them from the final Dwarf under Candlekeep before returning to the surface. According to the Wiki you can buy them from Sorcerous Sundries as well. These really help especially after they are dispelled from the blur and haste effect. They are a lot faster then using Wands of Paralyzation.

    Scare them - Stun them - Keep them coming after you

    Managed to save Belt some of the time but Liia survived 20 out of 22 attempts.

    I'm sure other Veterans like you Jastey or Grond0 or many other cool veterans that have been enjoying this game for 20 + plus years :) can tweek this approach but Thank God i can get past this encounter now :)

    Now for another No-Reload run, my third attempt in less then a week , must be loosing my touch, sheesh!


    Wanted to update again been running practice sessions all night i have had a much better chance of winning if you pay close attention to the feedback message box. After Belt falls if they Attack Liia make her inviisble again then attack the Dopples they should go after you then thin them out.

    New Update- You know it's crazy to do a no-reload challenge if you can't practice at it, so in that spirit i thought why not share my save file, all tomes have been found on a half elf multiclass fighter-mage-thief.

    mirror on mediafire

    888889008-forumtestbelt&liia.zip

    local file below

    Post edited by Gloomfrost on
    OrlonKronsteenjasteyJuliusBorisov
  • OrlonKronsteenOrlonKronsteen Member Posts: 682
    Wow, this is timely for me. I just had my third no-reload run end at this point, and I don't have to tell you how much this sucks. I use all kinds of buffing, debuffing and crowd control but I'm still failing (funny, I never had a problem here until I started no-reload). I never thought of charming the nobles. Quick and possibly dumb question - how do know which ones are dopplegangers?

    GloomfrostJuliusBorisov
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,801
    Huh, I didn't have much trouble with a swashbuckler using a shortbow mostly, though it did take several tries. Dispel Arrows with Oil of Speed worked well to deal with those that avoid Horror, and overpowered Acid Arrows ended things quite swiftly.

    Gloomfrost
  • GloomfrostGloomfrost Member Posts: 249
    edited July 11
    The nobles are the Six noblemen standing below Belt and Liia. Careful charming them however, i am using BG:EE 2.5 the latest version from GOG and charming them and moving them makes them not become Dopplegangers and you can't finish the encounter.

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,133
    @Gloomfrost: Charming the nobles does not break the game; you just have to wait for the charm to wear off before they'll transform. Thus, if you charm a single noble and trigger the cutscene, all the other nobles will go hostile, and once you kill them, you have to wait until the 12-hour charm on the last noble wears off. Then it will transform, you can kill it, and the next dialog will proceed as normal.

    If you rest 8 hours outside the palace after charming a noble, the duration will only have 4 hours left, which is 20 minutes of real-time waiting. If you rest 16 hours, the noble will not be charmed at all when you get back--but the charm can still be useful in this case if you first move the noble to the southern room of the palace, which puts some distance between them and the dukes.

    If you want, you can charm every single noble with Algernon's Cloak and move them to the southern room before the fight begins. If you want to take it a step further, you can then rest 16 hours, use the Nymph Cloak to charm each noble with many rounds in between each charm, rest 8 hours, and then trigger the fight. In that case, only a single doppelganger will transform at first, and the other doppelgangers won't transform until many, many rounds later. You can actually pick them off one at a time.

    But it's usually sufficient to just charm a few of the nobles and move them to the southern room before resting 16 hours and beginning the fight. That gives you some control over the opening rounds and doesn't require a lot of waiting.

    JuliusBorisovOrlonKronsteenGloomfrostElysianEchoes
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